 مرحباً، أمي name is Junait Saridin. I am a theater actor, director and dramaturg. A co-founder of Zoukak Theater Company based in Beirut Lebanon. Zoukak is a theater company founded in 2006. We work as a collective and our work focuses on the political and social issues that are relevant for us as individuals living in the contemporary world and contemporary societies. Today, we are happy to share with you one of our creations, Jannah Jannah Jannah or Heavens. Heavens is a play we created in 2014 and it's a play that focuses on the question of the Lebanese history. This play is part of our research, our cycle of research on history in general. In this play we question this idea of history and our position as individuals within the huge events of histories that have usually a huge impact on our lives. We as a generation who was born during the civil war in Lebanon, the civil war started in 1975 and continued until 1990-91. The closure of the war was a big amnesty law signed by the warlords who are still empowered until today. The amnesty law is still part of our daily life until now. It has a big foundational impact on the system that we live in today and the mentality that we have to deal with it on our daily basics. The civil war ended with more than 17,000 missing people and because of this amnesty law the beloved families and parents and friends of the missing people are not allowed to even question the right to know what happened and what was the destiny of the missing during the civil war. Today we are sharing with you this play, actually the radio version of this play. It was recorded in 2016 and the actual play toured in Lebanon in different regions and villages around Lebanon and in different cities outside Lebanon. And also the radio version toured digitally in different online platforms during the latest pandemic lockdown that we faced all over the world. We would like to have you after the play if you have time to join us in the panel discussion. If you have questions, we will be very glad to share with you thoughts and think together through this play about theater and politics in our contemporary difficult times. Thank you so much and we hope you enjoy listening to Jannah Jannah Jannah. أبن أمه باي وجندي وهو مختفي أبن أمه باي وجندي وهو مختفي في يا مفي بهز زمان المختفي أبن أمه باي وجندي وهو مختفي الإبن خطف بالتسعين، طالط على أمه التسнين ابن خطف بالتسعين، طالط على أمه الوسنين لا يعيش لعمر الوحدة وتسعين في يام في بها الزمان المكتفة بس خلسة الحرب لقى حاله بلا حيات قتل مرته من الحيرة ومطول لهو ميت في يام في بها الزمان المكتفة بس خلسة الحرب لقى حاله بلا حيات قتل مرته من الحيرة ومطول لهو ميت في يام في بها الزمان المكتفة بيتن كان فق سخره بيقطع من قلب البحر وكل الناس بقوله من هنا بيجي السحر في يام في بها الزمان المكتفة في حكى في بكى في سمى مجعلكى في طائفة وفي زعيم مجرم حرب مستقيم في مواطن وفي شعب تيقب التاريخ وصعب في محاور وحوار في ثورة بالجوار في منطقة وفي حي وبلتج دمير وحي في مليشة اسم حزب وفي حقائق كلا كزب في بحرب قلبه غاز وسته بتمسح بالكاز في بحرب قلبه غاز وسته بتمسح بالكاز في عنصرية على البنجالة من ابن عمو لخالي في عنصرية على البنجالة من ابن عمو لخالي في لجوء وفي عبوء وفي انتحارة بالسوء في جريمة إخبارية بتحرف كل الخبرية في مغارة وفي سفارة وفي سياسة ناطر إشارة في أفلامة بتتأسأس وحرش مسكرة عأسأس في أفلامة بتتأسأس وحرش مسكرة عأسأس وحرش مسكرة عأسأس في إسرائيلة بروجة وفي إيراني تفضل دو وامركاني حكم فاني وسعودة مشتارج دودي ومسؤول إيام ومعدودة وبعدنا ملتزم حدودة في أرجيلة بتوصل قبل وفي وضع وقف عحبلي وشيف وصفة حد الحفة وشب لاط ماهو ندف وموكب عمبي لف اللفة وحلق من كفة في يا مفيب هز زمان المكتفي في يا مفيب هز زمان المكتفي في يا مفيب هز زمان المكتفي في يا مفيب هز زمان المكتفي في يا مفيب هز زمان المكتفي في يا مفيب هز زمان المكتفي في يا مفيب فيا ما في بها الزمان المكتفي في تلاتة وقفين وقوف والأصا نصا محظوف تاريخن هو المخطوف ممحية أغلب لحروف فيا ما في بها الزمان المكتفي فيا ما في بها الزمان المكتفي فيا ما في بها الزمان المكتفي في الإنسان الأجيب عايش هنا من 180.000 سنة في الفنية ومدنة بيبلوس بيريتوس زور وان من 5.000 سنة بيبلوس بيبلوس زور إدوار بيبلوس دوار خلال بيبلوس زور إهداء بيبلوس زور بيبلوس زور فنية فنية ايه يا مفهي اوه اللحمين ايه اليهود طريق الشام السودان نايا لوايح الشطب اشتياح بيروت لأسواء متاريس ميل يا غزيل ويغزيل ميل ميل اك ميولي ايه اليك ايولي بس اك فنجان اهوي ميل بعمل اك تبولي ميل اه منك يا غزيل اه لجبالي اللي كلها تلش معركة الجامعال لبنانية اوه تالي ريارة صورة الشهيد سكيت لتراني مستشفى الجامعة الدو اسرع من الصوت مطار ديمارشك اه اف بي اه منك يا غزيل اه يا غزيل يا غزيل ميل حاجز البربارة بليل من دون دو وامر البلد على كفعة فريت الازيفة يا اللي بتسمع صوتها مراحة سيبك ايه سي تران توا بورش معني ناكس مفي مي تان اتيل بتلتة وتمانين بتفجيل انتحارة استهدف مقار المريين سحر بيروت وتبنطو كذا جهة معمل البيرة نقطع البنزين من البلد الله الموطن العائلة الله وقر المطران الاحمر الرجيل براكرش ما بيس وقرش ساحة النجمة انه شيد الوطنة ام بخلا انا اصلا اخر ولد اصف شغار والمستشفة فادي بتركز على ان تخلف فيولدي الفصول الارض فيولدي اللو بخانطان اصلا شنات ويشويت ويسكي بشاط شربوا ويسكي سوا وقلت لها بعد مخلصنا تعليت داية فيولدي وبينك انه لما خلقت كنت كتير حلوة فكرت امي عم بيبكي من الفرحة انه خلقت بالسلامة بهيك اوضاء وانا اول ولب بالعيلة مثل كان اعجوبة بهذا النهار العكا انه كان عم بيبكي لانو انا بنت مش صابه انت مش بنت انت الجيل انت مش بنت كان اصدق انو هيدا مديح كانت حب ان يطلع اوية وشغيلة مثلها هلق ست ام جميل كانت شغلة مرى طويلة عريضة عد مطخين تفلح بالارد في ليحة انا مايا امي سمتني على اسم اصيد لنزار اباني بتقول راية البيضاء سيدتي اني رفعت راية البيضاء سيدتي بلا قيدن ولا شرطن بلا قيدن ولا شرطن ومفتاح المدينة تحت امريكي ومفتاح المدينة تحت امريكي فتخليها بسلام جسدي المدينة جسدي المدينة فتخلي فتخلي من اي باب شقتي من اي باب شقتي اييتها الجميلة اييتها الجميلة فيتو الاسرائيلية على بيروت من البحر كان صار عمري سنة طوال التقفهم شو يعني اشتيه خلقت ب15 ايار 2014 بالجامع الامريكية امي قد يتعشر ساعات عم تخلفنا وبتقول انه شافت الموت يعني النفق الطويل والدول ابيض باخره ومن وقت عارفت اني راح اطلع صعبة وقوية لستة بس ما عارفت اني راح اطلع عن مسلة هلا هي سنة 14 ما كانت هيني كان كلشي عم بحدر للسنة يلي بعضها الاجتياح الاسرائيلة لبيروت الغربية المدينة حاصره من البحر الطياران عم بيقصفه من الجو طرقات كلا سبالة وكلاب وعمليت الوينبي بالحمره دغري حد بيتنا اهلي حملينني اميرك دوفية من بيت لبيت وشاعر اسم خليل حاوي انتحر انا واما مخبرتنيشي عن ويلاتي بس بتذكر لقيت دفتر بخزانة بابا مكتوب علي كل تواريخ ويلدتنا انا واخواتي مكتوب دانو عشرة اموز 2014 الساعة 8 صباح انا كمان من مسلة وزكرت كلا صور ويلاتي متعلقة بصورة لما صار عمري السنة بال1991 بالملجق ببيروت بصورة كان في تانت سعاد هيجارتنا بالطبق التالت امو لا خالد كانت واقفة وحملتني وحدة في طاولة عليها جاتو وبنجوس وكبيت بلاستيك وصحون بلاستيك ورى الطاولة في ابن خالتي وخالتي واخواتي وتيتا كان في ماما واقفة مدى ايدا لعنده وعم تضحك بابا كان عم ياخدوا الصورة كانوا لبسين هك فصطين رفاع وطوال متل التفريع يعني انو ملجق ورطوبة وشوب تانت سعاد لبسي واحد فلوري كانوا لبسي واحد كرو بني وابيض بالصورة كانوا بيان على شفيفون عم يتحركوا كأنو عم بغنوا في صورة تانية كت واقفة وقدامة طولة الصفرة مدورة هون واقفة اختي عم بتزقف لي والتقشل لتقرقوز وهون اختي التانية صوب الجاتو لتفى معي لشمو كان بوقت ماما بالصورة كانوا كمان عم بغنوا سنة حلوة يا جميل سنة حلوة يا جميل سنة حلوة يا دانو سنة حلوة يا جميل في صورة تلتي كده انا واخويته بالصالون اعدين على الكنبية وحطين اجر عقجر وقتها ديون الصنيية فيها ابري وفنجين بلستيك فسنة نلعب ان عم نعمل الزيارة ونشرب اهوي اخترابعة كانت عم بتصورنا سنة حلوة يا جميل رجع الاصنة ونزلنا على الملجق خالد ابنة لتانت شعاد كان ايعد بالزاوية بالملجق وعم يسمع اخبار عن راديو لما سمع اسم شرعنا لان البيران اصفت صار يزققف بعدين قلب الإزاعة حتى يسمع برنمج الأبراج كان يحب سوطة للمزيع كان يشبه لسوطة صباح الخير صباح لأرنفل والغار مستمعينا متل كل يوم بتلقى اتصالد كل مجارب جاوب حسب الكوكب حسب الانجون واحيانا حسب الطاقس اتصلوا فينا على الرقم التالي سفل واحد 82 76 75 لتلقى اول اتصال ألو مرحبا مرحبا مدام تفضل لي معاك لم يأبي عزايا عبت تصل بخصوص مستقبل ابنة يحيا هو مخطوف مخطوف من انت من يومان تبلغنا انه مخطوف 17 سنة هو موليد 5 عيران 1973 العمر كله خبريني عن اخر مرة شفتي كانت عم بعمله تبولي بالمطفق الى 11 الصباح ب15 نسان 1991 طلع باب المطفق وقل لي انه ضاهر يشتري علب الدخار ومن وقته مرجعت شفته شهر نسان ويخلق رصد حركة الكوكي ماذا تكون واتحا لانه تأسه متألب يحيا من برج الجمزاء وحد من المواصفات هذا البرج هي التوئل الحرية هذا الشرح يسعى بلية تجربت الخطف يمكن بعد اسوه اين او تلاته تضح اكتر حركة ونقدر ان عرف شي بيبن بيان معاك وصحتهم نيحة مش عم يتعزب في عالم محبين حوالي من قلبين حوالي يحيا هو أسعب سؤالي بديك تعتبر أنه يحيا مثل نشلي وقبلون مخبي ما قدرنا عرف ولا شو في حوالي ولا وين مطرحة ما قلنا غير مطرح في إسألك بعد سؤال فضلي يحيا مؤلم على كلية العلوم بيبي المايت إذا فيه أبول مولود برج الجوزة بحب التعلم والاكتشات مسألك الجامعة مننا بعيدة أبدا عن يحيا خير حسسني قلبه أنه خير أنا بتشكرك فيه إرجع التصلي بعد شبوعين أكيد التصلي أتمنى بوقت أنه الفلك يسمح لي أعطيك أجوي بأوضح بال1991 دقوا على بيب تنسوعد وأخدوا خالد على برج المر تنسوعد ركديت على البلكون تيتفتحت البيب وشفتهم عن بجروع الدرج من نقزتها غط على قلبة اليوم صار عمره 41 سنة شو بدخبرك طالت مسأل بس بعدني بدخن على البتان دخان بنهار وبشرب أنين تجن إذا ما بمسك حالة وبشوفك بقيامة هون و هونيك بارح أطاعت بالبلت حد البطركية الأرمانية شفت بينيتانك بار عم بتعمروا بساحة الدباس حد مفرق بيتك اللي تهجرت منه بالوحدة و تسعين ورجع أشتراء الحريري مع البلد و هدمه الحريري ميت مبارح بارف أنه مبحياتك حبيتي من وربيت الدباس اللي أخدوا منك وعطاك أسهم ما بتسوشي إبعدهم ما بيسوشي بكرة باية طالع على الشام ما رح يقدر يوصل على حلب لأنه حلب محاصر لسنة تقريبا آخر مرة طولة جرى بيفتش ع بيتك بس ملئة بتعرفة بس اسمعوا و شوف شو عم بيسير بسورية بقول لحالة منيح أنه يحيا مش هون تيشهد هيدا الشي لأنه مكن رح يتحمل كل هالوحشية زعلت أنه ما شفتك آخر كم سنة يا ستة صر ل من الوحدة و تسعين بس بارف أنه مكن بديك حدا يشوفك هايك تعباني أنا صار بدي أربع أجران تأمشي يا ستة انت يالي كنت تطبخ للكل تعملنا فطاير و مشطيح تبعتي لنا البرغل بس سماء و الزعتر بس سندوق ع بيروت تعرفة هولي الأشياء ما بيجع بي لأبدا اشتريهم من السبحر ماركت بحسن بلا تععمه لوك ما انت كنت تخديون معيك بالشان تعا أماركا تعرفي يا ستة آخر سفرة سفرتا ع أماركا ما كنت مع جوزة كنت المخبروكة كنت لوحدة أنا أجمالا كتير بسافر لوحدة وبالسافر كون عم بعمل مسرح يعني عم مسل تمسيليات وخبر قصص ادى من الناس هلأ وقفت مسل بس ولا مرة فهمت لاش كنا مضطرين انخبع عليك كنت حس انو انت بالزيت لازم تفعمه هيدا الشي يمكن لانك منعت امت غني مع بات الفليفر هلأ يسامحك عكل حال أنا مبسوطة هيك يا ستة ومرتاحة أنا منيحة بعدني مثل ما أنا وقفت تمسيلي بس بعدني بحب امشي ظلت كزه سنة امشي كل يوم نفس الطريق اطلع من البيت لجنانية الصناية امرق حد بيعد دخانيا اللي مبسط بوجل وزارة انزل من الايتوال وفوت بشارع الحمر لفع اليمين من الموتكة لسبرماركة تدريس امرق حد مستشفى الجامعة تجعني بطني من ريحة المستشفى وصل على الافران الوطانية ما حل ما كنا نشتري خبزة صغير للشوارمة أناوية وقف اشتري حي اللاشي بس تقام المحطة انزل الدرج الطويل مسرح بيرود تمسيل عبد الناصر الكرنيش ارجع اطلع على كلموصو مسرح المدينة وارجع على البيت بس جبوك على البيت كانوا لفينك بكفن اخضر لما كشفوا عن وجك فتحت عينك شوي كنت كأنك عم تغمزيلنا انك منيحة هالنسوين حوالينا بالضيعة عم صيطرين عكل المراسيم قال ما بيسوى نبكى فوقك ما بيسوى دموعنا يدقوا بجسمك ما بيسوى نعلي صوتنا بالبكى وقكيد ما بيسوى نلحقك عدفن من نسوين اضعاف ادام الموت بركة شوى واحدة غمية ووقعت وانكشفوا فخادة كيف بدوا يحملها شير الجيل عايب انو أنا ما بتخيل مثلا انو انت كنت معقول تغمى من الزعل شى مرة او انو تزعل اذا بيانوا فخادك وركابك شى شوى كما انت لحجاب كنت تلبسى اصلا رفع عتب بحاصله حقنك انا ونبيلا وودعنك من بعيد هو كنون صعب على الختيارية راس السنة ورالباب والعاصفة قريبة من فترة اطاعت ببحمدون حد الاوتال اللى قضيتى في شهر العسل انت وجدة سللت بالدمار وشفت الى بيانو اللى عزفت عليها يا بنات اسكندرية ليلتا كان مغبر ومكسور شوى بحمدون 1991 حفلة راس السنة زينة كوتيون كبيت بلاستيك وبنجول سوى جاتو مع الجنة تبين خلتك الناول هو يابسوا في غني ونحنا نروس بعد انسغن العبطاولة وورا وبارشيس بعد انسغن العبطاولة وصير يوروس فاتت ترساصة من الشبك 1991 ترابلوس عايد ميلاد خيز صغير اين سر عمرو ست سنين برو يجيب الشموعة للبطو بيطلع بالسيارة هو معمه وبيمشو ما بيسوه 200 متر وقفوا بحاجة استيار بنزلو بيطركو عمه وبيخلو البابا من وقتا مرجع نعرفنا عنه بشي من كم سنة في واحد كان مفقود رجع طلع كان بالحبس قصتني وفرجعيني سورة للبابا طلع بيعرفو اكدلنا انه بعد وعالش اليوم في صار عمرو 29 سنين نبيت ذكرو للبابا كان عيد ميلاد زواجنا التالي رح يجيبنا فرقائع من حد معامل البيرة في عالم شفوعة بيلحط بسندوق كميون وطمسين لعيونه وعم يدربو وسيقفه كيف انت كمان قضيت عشس سنين من الحرب باماركا وعرفت تحبية حتى انه علمتين ان غننا نحنا وزغار لا كويلة المدينة اللي عشت فيها بايطاليا تهدمت كلها بيزلزال اتلت 30 ألف من سبكانة ما حسيت بشي وهلا شو ما صار ما بحس بشي كل العيلي صارت باماركا يا ستة ورانيا ما بعرف امتة رح ترجع عدو باي وانا بدلهم سيفرة غراضي بدلهم بالشنطة بحس حالة عايشة بالمطارات وصير فكر فيك اوقات كيف كنت تروح وتجع على اماركا لوحدك هنجد انك اوية حسي اني مش عم بعرف اقعد بمحل واحد يمكن انو ضلم سيفرة هي الطريقة الوحيد اللي ابقى هون بتعريف تتقلت اخير 5 سنين من حياته عنا بالبيت بالاخير تعبيت كتير كانت اوقات تسأل عنك وينو زكور ضلت لسنة الالفال تعطيني 200 ليرا تقشتري لقضامة واتشبرق بالبيئة مرة لبست كل تيابع على اخر طرز حملت جزدانا وقفت على الباب وقالت بخطر كل قلت للوان تيتا قلت لرجع على البيت قلت لخالتي باعت البيت من 15 سنة ما حست بشي أنا اليوم واقف بنفس المطرح متلا مرة على راسه سلت عنب بيده جزدانا براده عخسره وزري تويترس ببار بجميزه عضهره جوزه عكيح لخلخال عائجر الدنيا عبالي بوزا ببالي ابني عراسي حطة عخد شهوة عشعر حنة عتيزي حك الناس بقلبي رسور بوجه حكاية بقلبي رسور بقلبي حكاية برقبت جريمة بيده محبس بجيبت ملبس عقدامة عكد في حري جبل ابنى عبطني لبطة بضهر بي عصدر عبقا عصدر بقع عصدر ابنى عصدر بلاطة عصدر وشم قلب مكسور بصورتي رجة بدانتي شمطة عدقني دقا عالساني مسببة كيف كنت؟ أنا مشتقل كن كثير والله مشتقلك يا أمي أنا ما بعرف كيف هالغربة معكم بس هون بلد مثل ما هو اتركت ايدكم مشي يعني مثل ما بتسمعوا بهالأخبار شوية اشتبكت العالم يعني معايشة في شوية ازمت خبز بس انه مشي حال أنا مشي حالة بعدني بهالبيت امجرد ما اتركوا مجان ما يحتلوا ونخسروا الجيران هون ثلاثة ربعة ومفال بس دلهم بيت بوسليم تحت برح كنا عمين حفل عن دل هو وتذكرتك خيب هالغنية تنقنيها سوعة على رسنة جنة جنة تسلام يا وطن جنة جنة جنة تسلام يا وطن يا وطن يا حبيب يا ابو قليب الطيب يا وطن يا حبيب يا ابو قليب الطيب حاعت تانا رك جنة حاعت تانا رك جنة جنة جنة جنة تسلام يا وطن يا جنة جنة جنة جنة تسلم يا وطنه يا وطن يا حبيب يا بجلب الطيب حتى نرق جنة حتى نرق جنة نحميك بين جنة نحميك بيد جنة جنة جنة تسلم يا وطنه جنة جنة شمع شمع شمع كل بات في شمع شمع شمع شمع كل بات في دمع يا وطن يا حبيب جنة جنة جنارك جنة حتى نرق جنة جنة جنة تسلم يا وطنه جنة جنة تسلم يا وطنه يا وطن يا حبيب يا بجلب الطيب يا وطن يا حبيب يا بجلب الطيب حتى نرق جنة حتى نرق جنة جنة جنة جنة تسلم يا وطنه جنة جنة تسلم يا وطنه يا وطن يا حبيب يا بجلب الطيب يا أطن يا حبيب يا بغلب الطيب حتى نارك جنة Your Highness, my name is Junaid Seréteen I'm a co-founder of Zoukap Theatre Company and I'm an actor, theatre actor, director and dramaturg. دكتر وراما تونج حسناً شكراً وميايا مرحباً everybody my name is Maya Zbib I'm a theatre maker and I'm a co-founder of Zoukak Theatre Company مجدداً and how about you Chris? مرحباً I'm Chris Thorpe I'm a writer and theatre maker and performer from the UK and I've had the privilege actually of visiting Zoukak and spending time with them in their home city in Beirut شكراً and it's an absolute privilege to have you all here we'll just say that it's a shame that we're not all in the same room together but you know one day but for the time being this is such an honour so I'd like to start with you Maya maybe you can start off by telling us a little history in background in Zoukak why you all came together to create Zoukak and what is it the heart of all the work that you make? we created Zoukak 14 years ago and the idea was to make a basis for our professional work as theatre makers, actors, writers and directors because in Lebanon the theatre production mode is very sporadic it depends on individual initiatives most of the time there had been a very important collective initiative in the 60s in Lebanon it was called Al-Hakawati Theatre but generally most of the work is done by individuals and somehow there is no continuation of developing tools and languages etc so we felt that this was the only way for us to be professional as a group and we decided to come together mostly to train and think about what kind of ideas we want to put on stage and we didn't think that we would you know have so many plays up until now like 14 years later so we are basically a group of theatre makers and we make work in a non hierarchical way it depends on the project each project is directed by one or two individuals and the whole group takes part in devising and we usually invite other artists also to collaborate with us to perform and also to make designs etc and we also have recently, not recently we have our own studio it's a 100 seat theatre that we opened 4 years ago and it came right after a smaller space that we had been occupying the Christmas best and it's a very small apartment that we opened in 2008 also springing from an understanding of how important it is to have a location to create any kind of performance or theatre having come from the Lebanese University where there was no there were really no resources to rehearse and this space now is holding several other artists it's also host a festival it's called Sidewalks that Chris and Third Angel were invited to several times a couple of times and it's a bi-annual festival it has a local component which is called Focus Lebanon which is a platform for the development support and diffusion of work of artists residing in Lebanon regardless of their nationalities artists working in performing arts we also have one part of our work which is very much engaged in the social realm we do a lot of drama therapy social theatre in crisis situations and this stems from a desire to exist as civilians in our context not from a need to assist we can talk more about that it's a big chapter of our work and in all our creations we try to bridge this gap between what is happening in our context what are our personal desires and what kind of art do you want to make so it's a big question for us well thank you so much and I have had the privilege of seeing your latest space and it is stunning it really is a beautiful space in fact actually yeah let's talk a little bit about your working crisis situations in therapy world that's really really fascinating is that something that you will be doing from the inception of Zoukak or did it come later on and if it did why yeah it started in 2006 we created the company actually right after the war with Israel and we started doing some interventions in schools with children who were displaced women also and men sometimes and this was developed mostly by the fact that one of the company members has also studied psychology and we developed this line of work that is a mix between clinical psychology and the framework of clinical psychology and the experimental theater tools and we use this this tool to create a space of expression and to create a blank space actually for individuals to take a position on theater because we believe that theater is in itself a way to position yourself as a performer in front of an audience in front of your city so we use the power that theater can give to an individual for groups of people in crisis situations to take a position within their context within the smaller context of the group that they are working with and hopefully later on within the context that they exist in and the position can be very simple it can be just actually standing straight and looking the person in front of you and raising your voice doesn't have to be an activist political position so there's a big it's a long way and there's a variety of ways to actually exist and one of the other examples can go as far as a group of women who've worked with who were subjected to domestic violence decided during the workshop that they don't want to be called women subjected to domestic violence but rather women fighting for the law against domestic violence and this is one of the tools that theater can do and this drama therapy method it can empower individuals to change how they want to be seen how they want to be perceived and how they want to face the society that is oppressing them in a way or another wow that's absolutely incredible and you're still continuing this I'm assuming all the work we're training of trainers at the moment so we're training individuals to do this work wow that's amazing and I'm assuming that correct me if I'm wrong but it's more about the process as opposed to like the production of an end product am I right it's both it depends on the group there's another example that Renate can talk about that he's been working with a group of young people also with Omar they've had like they really created theater pieces with them so it depends it depends on the group it depends on their readiness on their desire at the start of the project was a theater project or it was just a drama therapy workshop it depends on the format but we've had these amazing experiences with young people recently creating theater shows and because they want to do theater and they come from very different locations in Lebanon they might have not met were it not for the theater so you know coming from different confessional backgrounds religious backgrounds political backgrounds and meeting in the theater space and talking about these issues so well that's unreal and actually brings me on to my next question for you Renate is there a crossover between first of all I think this question is kind of two parts so I'm really curious and knowing more about what are the typical processes of creating work from the beginning to getting us something on stage but I'd like to add something else to that is is there a specific crossover at all between your therapy theater work and your more your theater work with confessional actors or both lines interact and why between each other it's like we work as a collective and usually in our theater work we try to devise work together as a group by having one person leading this devising process and a director who have the final say on the artistic and theater proposition and choices so as a group we always even when we invite collaborators the process is a collective process where we all work together in a group sense and give different and generate different propositions on a specific theme and then through these propositions we reach the form and then we understand what kind of aesthetics and approach and propositions play or the work is doing so within this process we usually we use different group methodologies of work like our first productions used to have like a collective work on the dramaturgy other productions use collective work on writing and devising texts other works were only actor based so the actors improvisations were the base of generating materials and thinking about the theme so every time we start from this topic which is usually a theme that is related to us as individuals and is reflected to our social and political sphere and through this process from the individual to the political there is an intersection between our artistic work and the let's say social and psychosocial work and the drama therapy because as an artistic practice the individual proposition when it goes to the stage it transforms into a political idea or a concept or proposition and on the drama therapy it's a similar process in a sense that when you go with small ideas that are related to your own challenges fears etc obstacles of dealing with your own body with other people with other individuals with group with society with masses it's through transforming this individual challenge and put it within a group that adopt the same idea with you and then transform it into an art work on stage so this is a kind of therapeutic also process fantastic absolutely and I'm just wondering whether like the themes that you choose to work on are they are they lifted directly from the current or contemporary political environment or are they chosen in another form and then filtered through the current political climate where do you start with these ideas yeah so we are all like individuals that are really concerned about what's happening about around us and we are directly affected of what's happening around us being a theater person in Lebanon because in itself an activism it's an activism in itself like you have to fight for you daily living you have to fight for you to be acknowledged as a profession as an individual as a person who took an alternative decision that is not related to the mainstream the mainstream of what the system creates for you is a good consumer so becoming an artist in Lebanon and also everywhere in the world is that you are taking a choice that you need to do that you are proposing some forms and ideas that intrigue critical thinking in society and within this process you need also to break a lot of juxtapositions ideas that are embedded in you from the moment you are born in this society until you are raised and on which ideas you are raised we live all within this patriarchal system that puts us in tables in specific formats of thinking and of dealing in society and in our relation to the system so these kinds of ideas that are embedded in us that you work on breaking within yourself is in itself a process that you are fighting the system from your own body fighting the system from your own thoughts from those ideas that creates your thinking and your way of talking and etc so yes sorry did I answer your question yes you did I missed the other part to make and actually you started to answer my next question which is what I wanted to I'll offer it to both of you but I'll start with you Maya I haven't worked in Romania with Bezna for the last 5 years over a couple of projects we have faced which are making socially driven politically driven work and Jeanette I think you started to answer this yourself but Maya from the inception of Zoocac have you faced any forms of resistance to like kind of maybe a specific topic that you're putting on stage or maybe even the methodology or the way you work I think we try hard not to be censored I think one of our main issues is we want to perform we want our work to see the light we want to reach as many people as possible so next to that also we don't believe in work that has one dimension or has one idea or has a dogma that it's coming with the truth so most of our work is a reflection is a big question is trying to shake the status quo of what people think is normal so we we try hard not to be censored while using a lot of fiction we use mythology we use poetry we use musicality we use singing like especially in heavens that is very present and everybody knows what we're talking about but we don't go and attack a certain political leader because there's no point in it we would be censored there would be a big noise about it around it people will be with us others will be against us but then the work is dead so basically we try to create a situation artistically where it is present like if you want to talk about it's very visible but it's not the main issue as well because we don't deal with daily politics with the dirty politics of the everyday that the politicians are putting their hands in we talk about metapolitics in a way so even though we are talking about someone would say that we're talking about a certain political leader but actually we're talking about patriarchy as well we're talking about leadership and we're talking about a certain concept and this is what is interesting for us the discussion around this not this political leader or that not sexuality in the taboo sense but we do talk a lot about sexuality and gender so basically in Lebanon I think it's mostly sex, religion and politics and all of our plays are about sex, religion and politics not every single one of them is how we deal with them I guess some of our recent plays that deal with homosexuality and a lot of topics that are dealing with gender could be quite tricky so we haven't submitted some of those to the censorship because this is a huge topic and you can't really hide it sometimes when it comes to submitting other texts mostly the censorship board here is about reading our texts they don't really necessarily come to the theater so you can be completely naked if no one writes about it then it's fine but actually it's mostly what is written that is important for them so when they read the text we play with words we have these tricks and Jeanette is a pro in that in Arabic language if you put two dots over it can be and then it can be two different words and it can be actually a word it's different so it's either a typo or a different word or who knows in other instances we pretended like we had a whole improvisation around Emperor Angale which is a huge play by Henry Gibson and it's basically it's basically it's an improvisation around the play but everything around it is actually talking about politics and religion religious figures Christianity it's really very daring but what we did is we submitted the actual play to the censorship board so you know the black reading that first but second if they come to the theater well we were improvising because the play was set in a way that we're improvising so we play these games because ultimately what's important for us is for the work to be presented and yeah I don't know if you want to add something to that I've got a matter of curiosity as a theater company you obliged to submit work to the censorship board you are that's really interesting could one of you like open I love it yeah so actually here the law is like you have to it's a very old law actually from the 30s 20s even later from the past century that they renewed it during the like during the Ottoman Empire Empire period anyway so it's a law that says that you have to apply the text to the what is well governor or something it's a kind of old governor yes during the Empire you know and the law they renewed it lately in a different way where they said where you submitted to the general security force in Lebanon so basically there is a you know employees at the general security who read the text and they give their opinion and then actually the basic censorship that you have is based on three ideas religion, sex and politics so if it miss anything related to religion when they see it's related to any Christian ideas or Muslim ideas they will send the text because they can't take also responsibility in the general security they will send the text and to the you know to the representatives of the of the specific religion like they will send it to the assembly of the Islamic Shia Al-Alaso the Shia the high Shia council or the you want to correct my translation or the or the you know Sunni council or the orthodox or Catholic council or etc. so and in the politics it's the main thing for them is like don't mention names say whatever you want but don't mention names and in sex is like how far this act can go and if you are insulting someone and as a religious figure or as a political figure through sexual acts so basically this is the censorship that we have to deal with and actually artists in Lebanon were very brave in breaking these censorship rules in different ways all of them by like by finding the new forms by try finding ways of saying things loud and after the 17 of October Revolution that started like in 2019 actually nobody is submitting or dealing with the censorship anymore anyway it's now it's like theater is not active as it was before but now there is something like a big taboo that was broken and the relation between people and power is like in in a direct confrontation so people are now we are not dealing at all at the moment with the censorship and we reached a point where we say okay we are going to do whatever we want come and shut us up if you want and we find ways okay fantastic wow that's really really fascinating mainly we're not obliged at least we've never been obliged to send anything in Romania to a censorship board but a lot of our experiences being through funding models and things like that like town halls small and large on a national schedule so actually being through the funding I'd like to move on a little bit that's alright I've got a question for you Chris having worked in many different different artistic and theater contexts internationally when you first came across Zoukac how was there work different to the socially politically driven work for example in the UK or other political context that you've worked in I mean in some ways profoundly different around you know the circumstances that I think they've just been very clearly described through which that work is made and that the paths it has to navigate and in some ways actually not at all in terms of the processes that we've just described the collaborative processes and particularly the the relationship between filtering out the personal through the the choke points and the problematic structures in society to create the work so I mean for me not just the work of Zoukac but in Zoukac as an entity as a collaborative artistic process as a process with a clear sense of purpose there's a lot to aspire to there's a lot that feels familiar in the problems of artistic creation irrespective of the particular social context that the work is made in I mean between the artists who are making the work there's a lot of familiarity in that dynamic but equally there are certain things that Zoukac do in a way which as we've just heard things that maybe they have to do or that they began having to do that have become really effective parts of the art that the company makes which are incredibly inspiring so for me the kind of enforced lack of directness in subject and expression combined with I think something that Zoukac do particularly well which is the directness of speaking about human experience I think is a really fascinating thing for an outsider to observe and to become familiar with in terms of what it tells you about how to speak about politics in your particular context so that directness of form that in sort of freer areas of the world if you like in terms of artistic expression is often kind of dismissed as naive or treated with a certain kind of embarrassment is actually a really effective tool when it's allied with a kind of a way of expressing yourself that has to go around the obstacles in its way and Zoukac managed to kind of combine an absolute sincerity and directness that I think in all the hands and in all the places is seen as kind of a little unfashionable but they combine it with an absolute human truth and a commitment to kind of research and to the translation of not only their own but other people's experiences and their wider society into the work in a way that shows that you know that the attitude towards that directness in all the places is a problem with the artists in those places it's not a problem with that form or that mode of expression I mean don't get me wrong this is not my way of saying that I wish that I worked under the social or political strictures or the lack of resources or the social instability or the living with the everyday fractures in society that Zoukac have to work in I just think that there is a blueprint here for a combination of the personal, the political and the useful reactive to a fractured society and the formal that is you know I mean their and testament to that is not just Zoukac's success within Lebanon it's their success kind of outside of outside of their own country as well so I mean I guess that's a short way of saying that I find the work incredibly inspiring a long way rather the short way of saying that is I find the work incredibly inspiring absolutely I couldn't agree more I think there is something I think there is something incredibly inspiring in the directness of the human experience and of like making sure that our story is told because that's not a compromise in any shape or form I think it's actually incredibly intelligent and incredible and it's actually a very similar it mirrors quite similarly over here as well in Romania of how theater was made during the end of the before the revolution of how language and stories were adapted to kind of curb the censorship of the secret police but just to say again that there's speaking from my position sitting in Manchester in a country that while it has its problems doesn't try and politically do the things that Lebanon or Romania do there is a one thing you have to be aware of particularly you know speaking from a very privileged position within that country never mind that country being a privileged place to be there is a temptation to kind of exoticize and almost glorify that struggle in a way that sometimes gets in the in the way of the art so what we know when I talk about admiration for the work I'm talking about admiration for the fact that the work exists in the form it does having taken the journey there through the obstacles in its way rather than rather than that it's the obstacles that create the work yeah absolutely thank you so much for that I'm very keen for us to move on to talk a little bit about heavens if that's alright I would love to know because I found it a beautiful deeply moving experience a very beautiful piece I was absolutely besotted with the musicality of the piece and Maya you mentioned earlier which I'll come to a bit later about how the important role of music in singing in the piece before we come on to that maybe it would be a good place to start maybe Jeney you could talk a little bit about the initial starting point of heavens and what made you want to make it as a collective and maybe give a bit of political historical context around the content of the piece yes so before I start talking about heavens if you allow me I would like to dedicate heavens and streaming of heavens tonight to all those to the beloved of the disappeared in all over the world especially in Lebanon after the civil war the people who are disappeared disappeared because of the wars taking place everywhere in different countries in Syria in Libya in Yemen in all those places that they are still drowning and sinking in unending fights and wars and also to those people who to the beloved people of the those who lost people now during the pandemic and for people who are still fighting with different diseases especially cancer and so this play talks about the missing and the missing for us is was the starting point of the play and it was the starting point of dealing with our own history in Lebanon so Lebanon had a long civil war history that started in 1975 and ended in 1991 but the consequences of the war continued until this moment and the play tried to deal with history from the position of the individual within these huge events and so we tried to tackle the problem of histories that point where in the play where you see that all the dates you have two dates in the play on there all actresses were born at the moment of the play so it was recorded in 2014 so they say I was born with the date in 2014 looking back like they were born today looking back backwards to the to the history and everyone who were missed in the play were missed in 1991 and by the ending of the civil war that ended with this amnesty law that resolved the war in a way that gave privilege to the warlords and deleted the all crimes that happened without giving the right for people who have who still have disappeared or for victims without giving them the right to know what happened exactly to give a very fast I will try to make it fast the glimpse on the history of Lebanon Lebanon is a country which was based on like it was one a place in this whole region that was ruled by the Ottoman Empire and before the Ottoman Empire Empire different civilizations passed and always within these civilizations and empires you had the whole region were dissected in different ways by giving the power of ruling the regions or the areas within the empire to princes or people who are related to the to the system so the Khilafa system that is part of the whole Islamic period was the system in the Ottoman Empire Lebanon and different regions in the area during the empire or the last in the last years of the empire they had privileges they took privileges in some areas so there was something called this Lebanese mountain the whole region where many were different minorities were living in this region is the Muslim Sunni while you have small minorities of Druze Christian Maronite, Christian Orthodox Shiite etc took refuge actually or lived in this and the mountain so during the empire this mountain took a privilege by dealing with this and the privilege were translated by giving some key persons the right or the power to collect taxes and then these key persons became the people who actually deals with the Khalifa or with the main authority and the Khilafa system and the emperor so they give the taxes and they collect the taxes and this same system was translated later into the feudal system when you have these people who had the privilege they have the power over the areas and then the feudal system was applied and then after the failure and the downfall of the Ottoman empire and after the first world war we had the colonial colonization of the British and the French colonization over the area and here they had this very smart great idea of dissecting the earth and the region into nations into areas where they give some minorities religious minorities privileges by translating the privileges into nations so you had Lebanon with privileges for Christians and other places and Lebanon was created on this kind of privilege so these families who had the privileges before within history they became like the kind of confessional leaders because the system adopted and Lebanon was a confessional system so they became a confessional leader so they have a very long authority in history and they have now until now this authority over the people where everyone where every confession have this one leader which is the father the main pope of the confession the political pope of the confession and this person shares the power with the other confessional leaders who were in fight during the civil war became warlords and then found a the amnesty law that put them again in power until this moment in history and here if you want we can refer to the intervention by Mr. Nizal Saghia a lawyer a civil society activist and the founder of legal agenda in Lebanon he joined us for a conversation before around this topic and it would be great if you can have his opinion at this moment but he really expressed and this is something that maybe we don't know the real constitution to Lebanon is not the constitution nor the sectarian the constitution that we do after the war is the amnesty law this is the real political regime in Lebanon not the system that we talk about in the books the system that is applied in the truth or in the conspiracy this is the amnesty that came out not only that the amnesty of all the crimes and the big crime and the murder and with the murder for any murder this did not exist in the society and we told that the highest value in the next regime and this is something very clear it shows from the crimes that are the 91 no one can survive no one can survive in the field no one can survive in the crimes against humanity and in the crimes of war all of this came out there is one that comes out and tells them but we want to get rid of the crimes from the murder against the crime and against the murder of the religion and comes out and tells him why where are the problems why the crimes against the crime do not disappear and all crimes and crimes disappear so it comes out at the time of the president and he says because this is a national role and accordingly he considers that the highest value in the next regime is not the humans we know in Europe after the war the crimes against the humans حتى يقدوا أن الإنسان هو القيم العليا هو الزعيم القيم العليا في النظام ما بعض الحرب في النظام ما بعض ال91 وبهي هذا المحل نحن ما عشنا بديموكراتية من ال91 لليوم نحن عشنا في نظام زعامة في نظام كريسماتة ببنى على كريسمة الزعيم على زيكة الأبطال أبطال الحرب أني زعام السلم وبيفعل أنونا العفو هذا هو الدستور الحقيقي اللي الحد في لبنان عفو أبيض غير مشروط لوك حتى ما حدا عزب حاله يخبر المفقودين شو صار بأهاليهم قبل ما يكسب العفو فكان هذا عفو فعلن عطا الزعمة فالغنان اللي غنموها بالحرب تلت لألون باب لغنان ما بعد الحرب وبهيضا المحل مسرحي دي محلة نحن الثلاثين سنة المضيط منخطفت بالوحدة و بسنة خطف تاريخ شعب وتقدم شعب وتطور شعب وقتيصات شعب من الوحدة و بسنة هيضا المخطوف مش بس شب و شبان منخطف بحييته بحيويته من ورع قنون العفو هيضا ومن وقت حتى إذا فتنا بالمسرح بلشت الكوميديا ما كان فيه ترجيد يا بعض الحرب يوك ما حدا جا عباله يبكي ما حدا جا عباله يبكي عض ضحايا إذا منظلنا نضحك لحتى ما نتذكر لحتى نفكر أنه كلشي ميح وكلشي رائع و بلش و صنية و الكوميديا تتذكروا بعض ممات الحرير كيف حواد حياتنا ترجيد يا أنه كان مطلوب نتذكر الزعيم يلقى لأتل بس ما نتذكر كل ضحايا طبع الحرب هيضا نعمل كوميديا حتى الأبطال يرجعوا يحكموا مثل ما بدي وفالا بلش كل النهر و السرق و صار في نوع من الديل بين المجتمع و الزوعمة أنه سرقه قد ما بدي و لما كتير ضعيف منه قد يقاوم فسرقوا خدوا ميلة العام كله لألكم بس خللونا مجال أنه نخالف الأنون بالأرض طبعنا بالعقار طبعنا نعمر مبنى مخالف نجيب عامل و نستغلها فهيضا الديل أنا أعطيني حرية الكاملة بالشي الخاص فيه و أنت نهاب الدولة قد ما بدي و بالمنتهة بالشغل تان كلها يطعم تندعس بكل محل للمديني بقى جميلة لأنه خلفنا كل الأوانين طبعا البنى و لعننا كل العملية و ضلطنا بهيضا الأديل أنه أنا الخاص دائلي و العام لألك زعيم نحنا كلنا لحينه و معنى هوي غير أنه نحنا تابعين لها الزعيم و إلى أخرى لحدية مصارت 2019 و اكتشفنا فجأة اللي كنا نسمى أنه هو ملكي خاصة طلع عمل حطه بالبنك و بنك يخطه بحطه بمصرف لبنان الزعيم عم ينهبه و بالتالي كنا عم ينهب مالنا اللي كنا نفكرين أنه هايضا ما قلو عليها فيه هايضا حطينه عجنب و بالتالي هايضا الديل خرب بتشرين الأول 2019 والفساد اللي كنا نفكرين نعطيهم يالا حتى نحنا نعيش اشتاحنا والفساد اشتاحنا اليوم والفساد يعني الزعامات مبس حكمه العام ولكن حتى حكمه الخاص حتى حكم كل واحد احسابه بالمصرف اللي كان مع تدرو محمد السرية و إلى أخرى فهيضا الاشتياح و هيضا التفليس العامري فرجتنا اللي ما فرجونا هي لأنه ما عطو حق للمفقدين المقابر الجماعي اللي كان مفروض لما تلحفر فرجونا بشاعة الزعامة حيضا الشي ما سامحوا فيه بشاعة الزعامة شفتها لما فلس البلد لما شفنا كيف اشتاح و كل واحد مننا و كيف اخذوا من كل واحد مننا كل شي لحتى يمولوا الفساد طبعا وبالتالي هيدا الانهار اللي كانت صدم الكبرى انك تشفنا الفساد ان يشتاحنا كل يدنا و بلاشت الصرخة بالسحاد الشتاهم كان عنده وظيف كان عنده وظيف اجتماعية اساسية هي تهديين الأصنام هيدا الشي ما محدى اليوم بيقولوا ان اما تمسوا بالرموز الوطني نحن البدنا المسفي هو الرموز الوطني و البدنا دمره هو عيدا الدستور بس لانه اذا مدمر عيدا الدستور ما رح نقدر نبني دستور دموكراتي لبعدين وبالتالي هيدا كانت الهدف طبعه لهايدا المحال فهل المحال الحرك المقاوم الاصيلة اللي عملوها اهل المفؤذين على 30 سنة و كل الوقت عم بيصر خلاء هيدوه لي مجرمين هيدوه المجرمين هيدوه الاتلونا و ما بيعطونا تحية و بدنا المعرفة شو معنية المعرفة هو انو نعرف هنش عنه و هنش و كذلك اللي كان عم بخبروها اذا كله فضح مع الدفليس الكبرة اللي روحه بالشي الجواب طبعهم مكان اعتراف مكان انه ركعه الدين الشاب و اعتزره مكان انه حاولوا يردوا المال لحتى الشاب يغفر لهم هيدا محاصل بسقافتنا مش موجود لانه في 15 ألف سنة مثل ما نقل بالمسحي نلعفوها وبالتالي كل شي دور و علي اعفو عام عم نحكي عن تفليسه عم نحكي عن ارتكابات عن جرائم عن تفليس بلد كامل عن محاسبة عن استردار دعمه المنهوبة بس بالخط كله عجنب ببلشو العفو العام بتتذكروا كيف و قلت السوار ما مضهوه هيد الشغلي و تعطل البللمان مرة و مرتين من ورى العفو العام و رجعوا لما خفت الأمور و العمل الكورونا رجعوا يحكوا بالعفو العام و رجعوا حطوه مثل ما هوي و مؤخرا بلد مفلس و كورونا و الناس عمتن صرف من شغلة و السكن ما فيه و هن النواب ما عم بيعملوشي الا انون العفو على شهر كامل بيجتمعوا اكتر من 50% من النواب نصبح دا المسا يعملو ديل على العفو العام بينهم و بالتالي و مؤسمينا و مؤسمينا على 3 فقات يعني و بالتالي هيدة بعد ما يعني انو العفو كان في كتير اشياء لحتى يكون فيه عفو زيتي مثل ما عملو بالوحيدة و اتسعين هيدة اططة السورة و سار كل وحد عم يحكي عن جامع اذا عامتو بهيدة الجامع هني اصنام مكسورة هم بجربوا يرمموا هل اصنام المكسور دا حتى يرجعوا يعملو بس نحن نعرف انو تريخ بيقول انو الاصنام متى متكسرت متى تترم و بالتالي هيدة الانون العفو ما مرأ بعد اخر جلسي رجعوا اختلفوا بين باعد والامل انو ما يمرو لما بتكون العملية صارت عملية بس ترميم الزعامة بينما كل المجتمع منسى معاناية كمان هم بيرجعوا يحضرو حالهم لانظام زعاماته عن جديد من دون ما يكون عندو اي قبعات اجتماعية لو كشاهينا بهال عفو العام يحكو الناس الفقراء اللي يترد تسرق من وراء الفقر الناس ترد تعمل دعارة هيدة كله مش معفا المعفى هي انه تلت فقات يالي بخص طيفة معينة الاخري والمهربين المخدرات والتجار والعملة وعماليا هيدول تلت فقات من اختر الفقات فهذا ما كل الفقات الاخرى ما كانت عم تستفيد الابن فكل عادي العمالية بتأكيد يالي كان عمال الوحدة وتساين عم بكرر نفسه بأشكال مختلفة حتى يرجعوا يفرضوا نفسه حكم الزعم مش صحيح انو نحنا بحكم طائفة نحنا بأسوأ حكم طائفة نحنا بحكم الزعم الزعم الطائفة وبالتالي هيدة مستوى آخر من الحكم ويوم يهيد المطلوب انو نهد واندمره فبهيد المحل العفو العام مثل ما هو التستور هو العدو الأول بالنسبة لألنا صحيح انه هو قربي الكبرى بالوحدة وتساين ونعمل انه ما يكون الضربة بالألفان وعشرين انو ترجع الحركة الاجتماعية تأخذ بعدها التدمير عيد الدستور للنفرض العالم شكرا حسنا سأعود على الأسئل سأسأل هل كانت فتاة لتخبر السؤال من السؤال من الوصول هل كانت فتاة هل كانت فتاة هل كانت فتاة هل يمكنك تخبرنا عن ذلك نعم كانت فتاة أنها سيكون تخبرت السؤال من الوصول لأن الوصول عندما يأتي في وقت ونحن السؤال من الوصول المنزل يأتي ونحن في المنزل ونحن في المنزل يقوم بكلاب يفتاة يقوم بكلاب يكوم يفتاة يكوم يفتاة يفتاة لأنه أعتقد أنه كانت فرقية جنائية وقد نقلنا بأنه كانت مجدداً أنه بالطبع أن الأسئلة و الأسئلة و بالطبع أنه أشياء من المشاكل أجل أن مرور أسئلة أكثر من الأسئلة و أخذتها في مختلف أشياء أعتقد أنه أكثر من 80% أو 87% الأشياء أخذتها أسئلة و أعتقد أنه تساعد ونحن مجموعة بحيث جداً في المزيد. ويجب أن يكون أحد الأمر بحيث أننا نجمعنا للمزيد من المزيد من المزيد. ونحن لا يجب أن يكون أحد منهم مؤكد من المزيد. ويعتقد أن هذا يجب أن يكون أحد أحد. أنا أعلم about the time. سأترك ببعض أحد. كريس، سأعود أن أعود لك أسألتك عن ماذا أعتقد أن المناسبة الثلاثة لتساعدة أساس أجل السلوات؟ أعتقد أن الثلاثة لتنسى أغنية أو أعطة أحقيقة؟ أعلم أنه بأس كثيرا من أعبرك أنك تقلت مع كثير من المناسبة مثل الكثير من المناسبة مع المناسبة في مجرد مجتمع كما تأترون في المناسبة لذلك ما يثبت أثبت فرق الأساس والتكرار التي يدخلها على أساس جديد هذه قطع مدهما جدا، لا لا؟ أعني أعني there are different kinds of trauma and you have to acknowledge your position within that trauma and for me that governs not only how you speak about it but whether you should speak about it حتى سببا بورا في البرطن There are all sorts of societal traumas a lot of which may be mirror the kind of societal trauma and protests that say the US is going through at the moment around race, around policing, around things like that. و أعتقد أن يجب أن تكون لديك أفضل فرق بإمكانك أن تفعل ذلك بإمكانك أن تتحدث عنه. لذا هناك فرق بإمكانك أن تكون أفضل بأي أخواتك في تفعل مع الترامة التي يجب أن تكون فرق بإمكانك أن تفعلها. لذا هناك فرق بإمكانك أن تحدث عنه. لذا يجب أن تتحدث عنه في حالة المنطقة. لذا يجب أن تتحدث عنه بأي أخواتك من السلسلة. و أنما يجب أن تتحدث عنها. هذا سيقوم بصمه بفتحة الشركة من المنطقة المنطقة المنطقة بما حدث لكن أيضاً يجب عليك أن تتخيل عملت المنطقة المنطقة باستخدامها أن I have the ability to talk about that identity that makes the intersection of my identity and my communion of who I am as a person and of that particular event kind of useful and to move forward a set of ideas rather than to simply kind of replicate or represent an event لتجد كل شخص يتجد أنه كان مجددا لذا أعتقد أنه يوجد ترامة التي تقوم with ويوجد ترامة التي تقوم with أو أن تقوم بأسفل ترامة التي تقوم بها ويجب أن تكون لديك أفضل أفضل أفضل أفضل أفضل أفضل من تلك الحصول على ذلك قبل أن تبدأ تعمل أي أفضل أفضل عليك أن تكون لديك أفضل أفضل أفضل ماذا يجب أن يعمل وإن يعمل بأسفل وإن يعمل أفضل لترامة نفسا لا يمكن أن تكون لديك أفضل لترامة أو إذا كنت في منظمة أن تكون لديك أفضل Go讲 that that identified and helped to clarify particular areas of social conflict that you might be useful in bringing into light And they might be things depending on what your position is they might be things that are that you are responsible for as much as things that have been demonstrated وانتظارك ونصف من المساعدة للمساعدة تشعر بشكل كبير إذا لم تكن أكثر من كبير ونصف من المساعدة من أين أنا أستعمل؟ لا أعلم أعتقد أن هذه المساعدة أكثر من الأخرى ليست أكثر من المساعدة أعتقد Fei said it in the UK. It often forgotten that I do feel that there is a more of consciousness becoming about that. So that's really exciting. It's not an admission, I mean I would say to do that is not an admission of guilt. It's not useful to make that work as an admission of guilt and complicity. I mean, obviously honesty about that is really important, but. أنت تحضر أن تقوم بعمل أن يتعطي ذلك التقديم وأن يتطلب ذلك المستقبل مع it ما لا يجد أن تتحدث مع الجامعة للتأكيد بحيث أنك أنت تتحدث عن هذا أو أن تتحدث مع الجامعة لأن هذا هو بحيث منهم بالنسبة له أنا أعتقد أنك قد تجدت الحق with حيث ويقوم بقوم بقوم بشكل كريم بسيارة هل سيطة المجموعة المتحدة أو هل سيطة كثيرا محسنة لتكلم عن المتحدة المتحدة ومجموعة ويجب أن أفعل ذلك لأجل المجموعة أمامك أكبر كريس إذا كنت أردت أن أبدأ ومعيش جنيد أن تستطيع أن تسأل من المساعدة سأعتقد أن جنيد ومعيوان أخير من الأشياء هذا هو أسئل الأسئل و سأقول أنه يمكن أن يكون أنه يمكن أن يستطيع أن يذهب من الأسئل الأمر about political theatre is quite often what it is it's what it's trying to do I'm setting up a huge strawman here but I think I'm justifying generalising what a lot of stuff is trying to do is simply say the simple truth is to say the simple truth in a clever way for clever people and that is not useful that level of analysis is probably the enemy of effectiveness if it's just about explaining that power of analysis but I think what moves us away from that is a very clear idea of the utility of a particular piece of theatre and I think we can absolutely make political work that acknowledges the position of the artist the particular context in the society that they're in and it's also useful in prompting conversations that can move towards change absolutely and Junaid or Maya would you like to jump in now to answer Karim's question Maya, do you want to start? Yeah, I would say that mostly it's I agree with what Chris is saying and it's mostly work because this kind of work is relevant when it asks questions and leads people to talk about things that they don't necessarily talk about in a certain way after they leave the theatre space and to be faced with things that they don't want to be faced with and to open up conversations that are difficult difficult to the artists and the audience so yes, of course this is the kind of theatre that is political and relevant and it's not reaching to the choir and this is I agree with Chris that it doesn't have to be probably to people who know exactly what you're talking about it's rather pushing people to places that are uncomfortable and pushing yourself as an artist to unfun to good places Yeah, exactly I would add from here is like the understanding of political theatre from a country to another differs as how to identify it so when we say political theatre it's not a specific form but it's a how you position yourself your artwork your thoughts your text your word your body on stage like today if you in a specific context if you were something that applies to you an individual identity and differences from you surrounding and walk in the street is a political act in itself so when you have a space like the theatre as a person as an individual as a theatre practitioner then how you deal with this space with time with bodies on stage with words with you have the opportunity to create something not unidimensional multi-dimension that deals with complexity that open questions this is a political act in itself so even if you need to say that this is not political apolitical but in itself in a specific context the apolitical choice is political in itself because it's a choice that you need to question the political discourse of that context so it is a way of dealing with your context and surrounding yeah so yeah it will always stay alive and whatever you do will be political in that sense thank you so much unfortunately we reached the time I've got a million more questions for you all and there are a few more questions from the audience so apologies that we didn't get those out right now alive but maybe we can send them to Maya, Chris and Junaid and we can get those answers later on to the people that asked but I just want to say it's been an absolute pleasure once again and a privilege to moderate this discussion with all three of you you're a massive inspiration to all of us and it was a real honour and just keep fighting the fight I think yeah does anybody have any closing reflections or thoughts that you'd like to share? thank you so much and you both said that it was a privilege for you to be within this tunnel it's a privilege for me too to be with you and thank you for inviting us for this it's a great opportunity to meet again Chris after all of this time within these times and to meet you and again to have this platform thank you so much thank you thank you thank you very much and once again thank you everybody for joining and joining us there will be another event as part of GLODS in two weeks time so keep posted thank you very much thank you