 Good afternoon, good evening everybody, my name is Barry Colfer and I'm the director of research here at the IIA in Dublin. It's a real pleasure to welcome those of you who've been able to join us here at headquarters and hello to those joining online. I have a very short but very enjoyable role, which is obviously welcome you to building common ground, reconciling relations, Belfast, Dublin, London, that we're absolutely thrilled to be collaborating again with the John and Pat Hume Foundation, our good friends there. But all I get to do is to introduce today's chair, who's Tom Arnold. Tom is a great friend of the Institute, indeed serving as director general from 2013 to 2017. So Tom, thanks for coming back and for being available and I hand you the floor. Barney, thank you very much. It's a particular pleasure to be asked to chair this session. I think it's an important topic at a very interesting time. And welcome to all the people who are following us online as well. And we hope that you're, you can deal with it or for questions, etc. So, the, the three speakers, that's the most important thing, journalist Carney, David, David Graham, and Emer, Emer Curry. And I'll introduce them in a bit more detail as we go on. But the title is particularly opposite, I think, Building Common Ground, Reconciling Relations, Belfast, Dublin and London. And I suppose it's, we're having this meeting relatively soon after a really important development in Northern Ireland, the restoration of the assembly and the executive. And I think the topic today is of particular relevance. I know Jarlett for the last couple of years, and I very much admire some of the work that he's done, and we'll get a reflection on it today. And then I think I'm particularly pleased as well that David has made the trip from Belfast, former DUP Special Advisor in Belfast City, City Council and among many other things. And then Senator Emer Curry, Pynegeal, Shannon Spokesman for Special Education and Inclusion and Northern Ireland. So I think we go straight into it. I just a little bit more detail about Jarlett. He's a strategy advisor, and over the past decade he has served as an independent appointed equality commissioner for Northern Ireland, a parolee commissioner for Northern Ireland, a senior manager in the Health Service, an advisor on democratic reform projects sponsored by the European Commission and the US UK Foreign Office in the Balkans, and a media contributor and regular columnist with the Irish News. Between 2007, 2007 and 2014, Jarlett was a ministerial policy advisor and special advisor in the Northern Ireland Executive, after which he has ended any associations with party politics. Prior to that, he spent 15 years in media, literally as a political correspondent. It's my great pleasure to introduce you to Jarlett Kearney. Thank you, Tom. No, I'd sit with friends. I am very grateful for the opportunity to be here today and to be with such an esteemed panel. I'm reminded that when I look back on today's date, 29 years ago today, the UK and Ireland governments published the joint framework document. And that was perhaps the most thoughtful and broad philosophical exploration of Ireland UK relations that we've seen probably throughout the last 50 years, and it helped to set the scene for the Good Friday Agreement. And in particular, paragraph seven of the joint framework document is worth exploring in the context of some of the things I wish to talk about, and I'm sure colleagues will touch upon. In this framework document, both governments describe a shared understanding reached between them on the parameters of a possible outcome of the talks consistent with the joint declaration and the statement of 26 March 1991. Through this, they hope to give impetus and direction to the process and to show that a fair and honorable accommodation can be envisaged across all the relationships, which would enable people to work constructively for their mutual benefit without compromising the essential principles or the long term aspirations of either tradition or of either community. And for the two governments to get to that point, I think was really something quite important at that juncture in Ireland UK relations. Unfortunately, we are very far from that shared understanding today. And I was talking to somebody recently, and I said I wondered whether if we had christened strand three, a strand one, we would have given much greater priority to it. Because strand three is the framework within which the rest of the agreement and the constant evolution of Ireland UK relations actually has to take place and be managed within. So thinking about where we're at today and why that's important geopolitics and global impacts upon Ireland and the UK will affect both islands, exactly the same in broad terms, the different abilities to manage it. But we will be affected by the ecological and environmental challenges that are coming, particularly if the gold stream collapses. It won't see an Irish sea border. In Europe, we're looking at very, very precarious rise of right wing politics and right wing governments potentially. In terms of economics, we're looking at the shift between Northern Europe and the US Alliance, and then bricks on the impact that that can have in national security terms, the impact of Russian interference, the impact of China's interests and Ireland and the UK will not see any border in the Irish sea. We have a lot of shared challenges at geopolitical level that we need to confront collectively. In terms of the East West, then the London Dublin relationship. Unfortunately, we're in a pickle. We're in a pickle partly because of Brexit, substantially in recent years, but that's not the only factor at play. Both governments took their eye off the ball of the agreement and the need to sustain stability in circumstances where the divided community in Northern Ireland played out in the politics of the executive, which at times was not in the interests of the greater good. And we saw a number of collapses over the lifetime of the executive, particularly in the last 10 years, the executive has been disabled more often than it's been able to assist. The governments are the key to steering that ship. That's absolutely critical. So how do the governments do that if they are not talking, if they're maybe taking lumps out of each other, if, despite good public appearances, there are frictions and tensions undergoing beneath the surface. The only way they can do that is by restoring the kind of relationship that they had around the time of the joint framework document. That has to be a key priority. Will that happen in advance of the next elections? It is unlikely. But there has to be much greater work put in to recognizing that there are good people in London within government and within the broader kind of civic space, just as there are good people in Dublin within that same arena. And we need to find ways of each of them working much, much closer together. And I'll talk a little bit at the end about the kind of roadmap and thinking that I think can inform that. And then the other aspect is within Northern Ireland itself where, despite the good fortune that we have in recent weeks of the assembly being restored, we are in fact looking at a kind of meta conflict continuing just below the surface again. And until and unless the governments are in a position to jointly frame that situation, then constant identity issues are going to bubble up in the lifetime of the current executive. The underlying kind of issue or overarching issue, perhaps, is that there's an ongoing discussion about constitutional change. I see the issue of constitutional change merely in terms of societal evolution. The Constitution of Ireland has had numerous amendments added to it, some of which have been added, some of which have failed. The United States Constitution is exactly the same. Constitutions get amended. Our Constitution in Northern Ireland is the Good Friday Agreement and the Northern Ireland Act 1998. That sets out the approach, the parameters within which we are to evolve as a society. So when it comes to managing the evolution and the discussion around all of that, I think we need core principles to be applied across the board. And those principles are around patience. And I think we need patience because putting deadlines and timelines on constitutional evolution is not helpful. I think we need prudence, prudence in terms of what we say, how we say it, our actions. And we need partnership. And the partnership will in the first instance be led and driven by the governments. And in some senses, the Irish government are probably going to have to work a bit harder at rebuilding the partnership because London has had so much difficulty in maintaining cohesion, even though some people are trying to do their very best. What does that look like going forward then? How do we manage the constitutional evolution that is inevitable in every single society? I think we manage it within a political management framework that over coming years should be agreed and implemented and overseen by a partnership of the two governments. I envisage that in terms of a two states one system approach. It's not a solution. It's not a concept that applies in every single circumstance. But it is an idea for managing the approach. We're going to have two states on this island for the foreseeable future. That's a reality. There are going to be two states between the two islands for the foreseeable future. That's a reality. What we know for certain, however, is that on the island of Ireland, greater one system works for everybody. And I think of it in terms of health. I think of it in terms of tourism, in terms of the economy. It does not interfere or damage constitutional aspirations to ensure that we start thinking in much greater one system concepts. That comes back then to the original issue about the geopolitical challenges that we're all facing. We have to face them together. Now that doesn't mean that we have identical policies on every single issue. Unity of purpose and unity of practice does not necessarily require unity of politics. We need a sense of working together on the issues that I talked about, the ecological, environmental, economic, political, the European issues, the national security issues, and also then the issues within public policy in Northern Ireland, particularly around the border areas and across the island itself. And all of this you see is summed up for me in a particular question, which is about exploration rather than binary choices. And the binary choices of identity say you're either Irish or British or both. But you have to choose. You have to choose whether you're pro union or your pro unity. You have to choose whether you're Catholic or Protestant, whether you're nationalist or unionist. If we change the question, we might be able to explore the future that we're all going on together very differently. And the question that I want to leave you with is this. How do we collectively across these two islands successfully organize ourselves for sustainable coexistence? Because that's what we have to do. And I leave it just to open in there Tom. Thanks. Thank you very much. That's a very good summary of a most impressive document that Charles has written, entitled two states one system, patients, prudence and partnership. So if anyone wants to get a greater level of detail. To what he's just said, you will find it there and I would commend it for reading. We now move to David, David Graham. David is a former dup special advisor and Belfast city councilor. He's also worked as director of communications and media relations at classical Rangers and as general manager for Linfield football club. These are two challenging positions. There are all sorts of insights into life in on these islands, and he now runs his own property and hospitality businesses with his wife. David, we're delighted you were able to come here and join in this discussion this afternoon over to you. Thank you and thank you for the opportunity to come and speak. I'm probably the only orange man sitting in the room, and probably only season ticket holder at Ibrox, but we're here to find common ground. So I do like pants again and so if anyone wants to buy me one after you're all I'll not refuse but no look at it's a privilege to be here and I was thinking on the car in the way down about what are the examples of strong relations between Northern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland and then ultimately then the United Kingdom as well and you know I think the fact that I got from door to door and just over an hour and a half highlights one of the strong infrastructure connections between Belfast and Dublin. And you know when I think back you know to when my forefathers were snowballing Sean Lamasse and Terence O'Neill in about 1965. You know really I think the fears back then were much more disproportionate. And I think they were exploited much more than was required and you know sadly and it wasn't the only cause but we know then what come after for the next 35 years and you know what I think now and thinking about myself and my family and thinking about what sort of Northern Ireland do I want to live in what sort of island do you want to live in and you know I'm conscious that engagement I think is is an important part of political society now where it wouldn't have been very long ago that you know someone like myself would have been heavily criticized for coming down and speaking at an event like this. In fact I probably will receive a level of criticism from from some quarters but you know we shouldn't fear that I mean I mean I voted to leave the EU so I'm you know I'm sitting here and I'll be totally honest with that but but one thing where there was a huge huge downfall and pitfall for for whether you want to call it unionism or or bro Brexiteers was that there was a total failure to engage particularly from the British government after the June of 2016 and I'm paraphrasing here with this anecdote but there was a famous moment when Angela Merkel hung up on on Boris Johnson and I'm sure they're very few or many in the room would like to do the same if they're in the middle with with Boris God bless him but hung up with Boris and essentially it was a case of right you know deals off essentially. So, Tom McTague a journalist from the mainland said let's explore why Angela Merkel had such a strong position regarding the island of Ireland and essentially and look anecdotally rather than giving it a detailed analysis what essentially the EU had done and what the Irish government had done was they had firstly brought diplomats from right across the European Union, and given them a tour of the border north and south spoken to people in a skill and spoken to people in cabin and said in real world terms this is what would happen if there was a hard border this is how it would affect my life. This how it would affect my kids going to school. Then after doing that the second part of the strategy was to then bring journalists from all across Europe and told him the same story. Now I'm not here to necessarily discuss the rights and wrongs of what that was because you know there's essentially in many ways a strong bit of propaganda and engagement and networking but what it did do was that Angela Merkel who was one of the most important players in the game at that time. She was so fixed on the position that there couldn't be a hard border on Ireland that you hung up on Boris. Now there's many rights and wrongs in there but I think the fundamental reality is that the British government sat in their hands. You can say because of the level of disruption and how fragmented they were at that time, you can accuse them of being arrogant, you can accuse them of being naive but I think in Northern Ireland in particular we felt the full brunt of the deterioration of relations between London and Dublin. And I don't think Dublin has to share some of the blame I think as there's Belfast and as there's London but I think that we all have to learn lessons from every period of time within society and I think that we all have felt the impact upon Brexit. In fact it probably in modern day terms has had the most impact on the constitutional direction of Northern Ireland in particular than really any other event in the hundred odd years Northern Ireland has been here. So as Jonathan has mentioned it's a case of where are we now and I think that I suspect everyone in the room will agree with me that you know Stormont being up and running is on balance a good thing. I don't think it's perfect. It's not a panacea. I've seen from inside the machine as Jonathan will have the things that you can achieve the things that you can, as we'd say get done. But we also need to when we drill it down and be you know self critical. Stable government and functioning government are are two different things in my in my view because what we can't as as citizens of this island except is Stormont being up and running is simply good enough that essentially the shutters are up and the blinds are open. What we actually need is a functional government and I think that's where the real challenges and I think that it's really it's not a criticism of the Belfast agreement. There's not a criticism of St Andrews, but in reality because we are essentially a minority government that is trying to make collective decisions that in human terms is very difficult. You know, I was when I worked at Linfield. Historically, they have 17 men on the board and setting side that the demographic of the narrow demographic that they represent trying to make any decision with with 17 people in the room is very, very challenging and I think when we look at the administrative table, you can have up to five, five parties around the room around the table I should say, who all are then sent off to their silo with you know their bag of money and said, you improve the road you improve the schools you improve the health service. We need to have a collective blueprint. You know, we haven't had a program for government in Northern Ireland. For as long as probably I can remember at least a working program for government because I know certainly when I was there and you were looking at education acutely at that topic. We have too many schools in Northern Ireland because we have too many sectors and the legacy of that is because there's Catholic sector there's state sector. We then have grammar schools which opens another conversation. We don't really have fee paying schools the way we do here in the south but we have too many schools in too many times but we've already seen the British government have have sent across 3.3 million points. I suspect and I don't have the information this but I suspect there have been caveats privately that have been agreed to regarding revenue raising and whether prescription charges chasing face water charges and straight away in the first few days, both the first and Deputy First Minister have ruled certain things out. I think one of the dangers that we have here and I say we I mean this island is the increase in populist politics. I mentioned the wider right wing politics and I think it's it's it's clearly I suppose a lot of right wing politics has been built on populism and you can see it in America with with Trump as well and I think that one of the challenges we have here is that if there is a change in the South like there has been in Northern Ireland and Sinn Fein come into power. One of the challenges is without taking this conversation party political is that Sinn Fein are a populist party and they will make decisions based on the direction that the wind is blowing and I think that for me to take it back to Northern Ireland. Until we grasp the nettle of grown up politics to say look, we've by six health boards, that's too many. We're going to have to try to sell the idea as as crass as this sounds, and I hope that none of us in the room to face the situation but you know you're going to have to travel over an hour for cancer treatment you're going to have to travel over an hour for specific medical care because we simply can't afford to have it in three or four corners of Northern Ireland so I think probably to bring it back and go back to having and fostering good relations. In my view we need Northern Ireland to work. Northern Ireland will work. If as many people as possible wanted to work that the Irish government put the shoulder to the wheel, the British government put the shoulder to the wheel. And as Jarla said, that we accept that for the foreseeable future that there are going to be two states in this island. And certainly as a unionist, I don't fear cooperation. I know that this idea of an all Ireland economy. And of course I want the economy in Northern Ireland to have a much stronger link with the UK, not because it's red, white and blue. It's because in my view. It is, it is a stronger economy and it will link us to the broader parts of the world but also, you know we shouldn't fear as I said at the very start we shouldn't fear sharing real way lines we shouldn't fear sharing roads we shouldn't fear sharing water communities because, as I said they bring the conversation full circle. That's essentially what Terence and he wanted to do in 1965 and I think in many ways and Peter Robinson used to say this to me privately where for Northern Ireland to work as part of the United Kingdom. And as a unionist need to make Northern Ireland as palatable as possible for as many people as possible. And I think that now becomes even more challenging because the increase in immigration, the increase in secularism. There's a difference in modern technology where everything is more free and accessible. People are less and less entrenched to, I was born in this area therefore, if a border pole comes, I will vote a certain way because of that so look with a lot of work to do. And I think that, you know, I have to say that organizations like yourselves here make a huge difference and I think that the finalizing someone up I think that you know unionism has been scared of engagement for too long. And I think that it's a lesson we need to learn and we need to get better at us. Thank you. Yeah, I think I just said at the end, occasions like this, they're all heart and parcel of the way forward, crucially important, I think. Now, it's a great pleasure to introduce center for him or curry. She was appointed a senator in June 2020 as a teacher of nominee. She's finished Shannon spokesperson for special education and inclusion, and Northern Ireland serves on the implementation of the good Friday agreement committee and his chair of sovereign matters on the British Ireland parliamentary assembly. She was elected to Fungal County Council as the first time candidate on the first count in May 2019 for Tasselok local election area. Thank you very much. And it's a pleasure to share the platform with you both and to meet you, Tom. And I suppose, when I was thinking about today and the theme, and I would agree that certainly a lot of the focus over the last few years has been about the British Irish relationship. Sitting here right now, how do I look at it and since taking up the role as a senator in in 2020 and joining at a time when we just saw a new decade new approach and the document being put together by Julian Smith and Simon Coveney and I think that was a really good example of a relationship and a partnership based on mutual respect for the benefit of everyone and did hark back to the days that we so crave for that we saw with the the framework documents and I have to pay tribute to John Bruton who has just recently passed away his relationship with major and Reynolds relationship with major and Bertie, of course, with Blair and and things in the last four years have been incredibly up and down but right at this moment in time to echo a famous fena fall slogan and lots done more to do, I would describe it as not great could be worse, because we have been through so much over the last four years and I'm looking at people in this room that have been part of that journey with me. And so I'm on the implementation of the Good Friday Agreement Committee, we did a report on the architects of the Good Friday Agreement 25 years on, and, and that really brought us back to our roots about the three strands and the fact that you you're absolutely you're absolutely right, the eyes were taken off the ball, and whenever we achieved the agreement, there wasn't that level of nurturing that needed to be there and that's on everybody. And, but when when Brexit happened. Actually, it has been the East West relationship that has propped the institutions up and has kept everything going. And so I you know, it's, it's easy to be very negative but I want us to remember that despite Brexit, despite hard Brexit despite political wins or agreements, and despite the legacy bill, the Irish government and the British government are still communicating. And so you know it's a bit like marriage, if it can be really going really badly but as long as you are actually communicating with with the people that are you know that the show is still on the road. And, and I think that's very important even even this week, we can disagree about the approach to the OMA inquiry, and we would have felt that that should be a joint inquiry, but at the same time those conversations are still happening, despite an interstate case. And so I think that there is, we have moved on from, I think very low points over the last three or four years, when when Boris was Prime Minister we're actually we were running out of hope about where he was going, it was unilateral action after unilateral action. And, and, and I think we are in with the the Voradkar-Rishi relationship, I think has been, has been better. And of course, it, it needs to improve. And, and, and I think that we are seeing at the moment the impact of that interstate case as well and legacy that it that is that has had an effect on the bilateral relationship. But not only was it not in the good friend agreement was it not nurtured the way that it should have, but it wasn't implemented the way that it should have been as well. I think that was, that was one of our learnings. And in the report that too much of the the agreement wasn't reviewed and tracked. And, and, and that was a very necessary part of it. And, and I would like to see now that the, that storm and is functioning again that we do need to get back to basics. The first 100 days are going to set the scene. And I think it's great that we, you know, that we can share platforms and talk about the symbolism of what has happened and, and the good intent. You need to see things like North South cooperation, properly invested in, because we're looking at bodies and and agencies that were set up and areas of cooperation that were set up 25 years ago and haven't progressed. And all the reason reasons that the lads have outlined, that's just not, that's not good enough anymore. And, and, you know, the shared island bonding this week, I think shows on our part, the commitment that we have to wanting genuine cooperation in the spirit of cooperation and collaboration. And you know, there, there are aspects of, of the UK command paper, recently the safeguarding the union, then I did find disappointing to read after after 25 years, where things like the all island economy is seen as a as competition to the UK internal market, when it's actually, it's not. The, the, are the North side trade is probably about 60% as important as the UK internal market, and they, the North side trade has has really only increased three fold in the last 25 years. So we have seen a big increase in it, and since Brexit up to 12 billion in goods and services, but in terms of as a competitor to the UK internal market, it isn't. But you know, there is that expression that a rising tide lifts all boats and going back to basics. That's what cooperation is supposed to be about. But I will say this, they, the, the, the EU market is as important to Northern Ireland as the UK internal market in terms of value. And that is something that we need to grasp that Northern Ireland needs to grasp. And as we talk more and more about bringing Ireland and the UK closer together, the truth is that we still do have a policy of dive it the UK still does have a policy of divergence, but the, but if it continues to diverge it makes access to the EU the EU market harder. And to me that would be an act of economic self harm. So we do need to encourage cooperation on a North side basis for all the practical reasons that we've spoken about already on the platform. But Northern Ireland does need to get under the skin of the, the, the, the possibilities and the potential of, of dual market access. And I suppose if I'm going to finish on anything it is that over the last few years, yes, unity has become more on the agenda and more people are unity curious. But we, we as an Irish government haven't stepped into that, that role of planning. We have restated our constitutional aspirations. And we, I think it is definitely overstating the case to say that a united Ireland is within touching distance. I mean, I just don't, I think that's, that's an incorrect assumption. And actually, it doesn't put us on a path to that. And my own view of the future is that a Sinn Fein want a Sinn Fein version of a united Ireland, they're not going to achieve it because they're only, they're not going to grow out of, of their, maybe 33, 34, 35% that would support it. The truth is, it's going to come down to the reconciliation parties that are going to achieve the change. And that I think we all want to see in terms of bringing identities closer together. But if you want a new or any version of, of the united Ireland, it has to be done by bringing people with you. And so I think where I was excited to be part of today because of where we are now that Stormant is is back up and running. I want to see more progress with strand to the British Irish relationship, as I said, it's not great, but it could be worse. I am heartened by the, the role of, of parliamentarians by civic groups over the last four years of academics that have helped us to make the case about fostering good relationships have kept the wheels going and the wheels turning. I don't know why I'm optimistic for the future, but we do need to see more than just symbolism and sloganeering and populism. We have to back it up with action, and it has to benefit us all. In the opening, I made one some important revision that I didn't say and it's very important to say that this is part this collaboration today is between the IAA and the john and pat hume foundation. And this series is called build the building common ground was established by the john and pat hume foundation with the aim of creating genuine and inclusive opportunities for dialogue and discussion, which will enhance relationships in northern Ireland on the island of Ireland and Britain. So the three standard the famous three standard relationships. So I mean Alex at where the administrator of the foundation is here to look who's on the board is here. So it's particularly salient that we're having this conversation at all. But we're having it in a new in a new context. And maybe before we get into the questions, maybe I just ask each of you, what are your, I mean, we seem to have started with the executive and the assembly and the relationship apparently good relationship between the first and deputy first minister. We seem to be starting on a good foot footing to this. So over the next year, what each of you would you hope will happen or be possibly aim for or achieved over the next year, because we are, you know, both countries are having elections within the next year. They're there about that will be the moment for real thinking about a longer term future. But we will shorter term future to deal with first. John is what would your hope speed the hope over the next year, Tom, and I'm going to be elastic with your timeline. Yeah, but the hope over the next year is for stability. And I really do take David's point and I'll come back to that about the difference between stable government and functioning government. The hope must be stability in the midst of the chaos that we're living through and the challenges that we're facing and the potential turmoil that elections can throw up both here in the United States across Europe, stability in Northern Ireland. In the context of agreement now about the approach to Europe and the protocol withdrawal agreement and Windsor frame work and so on. Stability is the key. And if we can have a year of stability, we haven't had that for a very long time. So the key within all of that I think is colleagues have touched on it. We don't talk enough anymore about reconciliation. Today's title is reconciling relations. If you look at the core constitutional positions within the good Friday agreement and within article three of the Constitution of Ireland are by and large quite similar. The article three talks about the firm will of the people of Ireland to unite the people of Ireland and friendship and harmony and subject to the principle of consent to then unite the island. The agreement is premised on reconciliation, rapprochement, respect and rights. Those are broadly similar in the Venn diagram. That's the space that we need to be in over the next period of time. In the six settings of the assembly before the assembly was restored. The word reconciliation was used twice. Those were being used to try and elect a speaker that was never elected. The word reconciliation was used twice. Reconciliation is not currently a word that we even use nevermind properly explore. And I think that when you look at the dictionary definition which is something, you know, somebody like Hugo McNeil will say what's the dictionary definition. The dictionary definition is about coexistence. And that goes back to the question, the open question that I asked initially in terms of where reconciliation was at in social coexistence 15 years ago. There was a program for government agreed in 2007 2008. And part of the reason that the agreement was reached between Martin McGinnis and Ian Paisley was because language that Ian Paisley had used and the DUP had used around social reform, social transformation, social inclusion, and in broad terms equality of opportunity was brought by Martin McGinnis to the table. And they were then able to agree the language that they had already used. There are ways that we can make programs for government function in a collective. So that's the short term. In the longer term, I think we're looking at the governments coming to the table around a new treaty based or broad agreement based approach to the next generation of evolution. Now reconciliation, rapprochement and respect and rights have to be at the very heart of that. But so too does a higher world view, which looks beyond just the internal at times ego centric view that we have of ourselves in the north that looks broader to the kind of challenges that I talked about earlier. Believe it there for now. In your opening commentary that on on balance. The restoration of the institutions a good thing. And obviously it was a, maybe a closer on thing within the DUP and Jeffrey Donaldson, I think, achieved a great deal in politically and otherwise to get it, get it over the line. That's if it's a good thing. And you obviously wanted to work. How would that manifest itself over the next year or so. I think that's the big challenge because it goes back to the line I used earlier about stable government and functioning functional government and I think that part of the challenge we have here is that there are a number of problems that need to be solved. And, I mean, if I was cynical, I don't think it's necessarily an interest of Sinn Féin to solve them because I think it is a very easy. I mean, if I was in Sinn Féin, it is a very easy slogan to say this is a failed statement because this place doesn't work. Now, that is probably slightly crass of me, but from a Unionist point of view, the only way to sell the Union as we talk about is to make Northern Ireland function almost in an independent way and I'm not advocating for an independent Northern Ireland or Ulster if anyone thinks I am, but our problem is, and I think Gordon Brown said it in one of his memoirs where he said, you know, there was never a Treasury, there's never a Chancellor that went to Northern Ireland and come home with any money in his pockets. And I think that the challenge that we have here is twofold. So if you look at a Unionist point of view, we can't just go sort of go to Dali for our pocket money because we need to stand on our own two feet. And I think as well from a separate point of view, whether it is Sinn Féin in Northern Ireland or the SNP in Scotland, and I say this having obviously worked in Scotland. I don't know what the SNP would do when they have an independent Scotland because none of the British government would blame. So I think that we need to have grown up politics, and we need to make difficult decisions. You know, we asked what I want to see in the first year. I want to see an appetite to actually reform potentially the institutions or that's probably a conversation for another day. But certainly the health service, the education system are the two for me where we need to be looking and saying look, there's too much there, there's not enough there. How do we solve this problem on our own? And I think it would probably even go further again to say when it comes to the wider landscape of Northern Ireland, our public sector in my view is too big per head of capital. And I think that we need to look at a way that we are driving inward investment and growing our economy to ensure 10, 20, 30 years whenever the Board of Pro comes, that in my view as a Unionist we're in a strong opposition as possible to sell ourselves as part of the UK. Okay, Ima, your perspective. And so I, again, listening to the lads and their views and agree that yes, we need stability. Yes, we need renewal, but I do think yes, we need reconciliation, but I think in order to do those things we do need reform. I think the St Andrews Agreement put us into a place where it enables and emboldens the two main parties not to engage in reconciliation, to coexist in silos, and I'm uncomfortable with that. I prefer where it was previously and I think it has damaged prospects of reconciliation. So I under the New Decade new approach, and there is a mechanism for forums for civil for civic engagement on issues. I would love to see something like that, and to discuss reform to hear from people and an equivalent of a citizens assembly in the north about how they would like to to reform. And the strand one, that's, I'm always surprised and alarmed that some people think that that is a bold move when actually it's part of the Good Friday Agreement, the Good Friday Agreement was never meant to just exist as it is now as a monument or a relic that we can't evolve. And, and I think for the sake of Northside Cooperation and trust in Northside Cooperation because it is depressing that after, you know, 25 years of the Good Friday Agreement, 50 years from something deal that there is such suspicion around Northside Cooperation and, and so many opportunities that are being lost. So, you know, we have seen the benefits of say, pediatric cross border health, we have an all island cancer strategy. And we have seen tourism flourish, although that too is under threat because of divergence with the electronic travel authorization that's being introduced in the UK. And we have to, we have to reimagine the potential and, and identify those areas, not just that's my hair again or it might be my earring. They're speaking. They're not agreeing with me. And, but we have to reimagine those areas of cooperation because the other the other part of it is, and I think people themselves will get frustrated at those lost opportunities. And I am all for close relationships east west and an areas where we can see efficiencies. Why, why wouldn't we, but we are in a difficult position because the UK has chosen a path of divergence. And, and, and that has that has been a policy that is a policy in itself. And, and it is beholden on the Irish government to work harder. We all need to work harder. And one thing that I omitted to say was, I agree with what you say about humility. Now is the time for for humility on all on all sides. And, and I think that's probably a good word to bring us into the path of reconciliation as well because the last five years have knocked chunks we have knocked chunks out of each other. And not deliberately but that is the path that we were on. And now, now we need to, to just move on. Yeah. I'd like to give voices from the audience because you know we've people in the audience of good views and clear views. And I want to take four or five so Francis. And four that in that in that role. So, and Francis we do like and maybe just everybody just say who they are. Yeah, Francis Jacobs member of the Institute, and thank you very much all three of you for really nice interesting presentations. My question is perhaps more oriented to David. And that is a little bit about the mindset within the Unionist community. When you see opinion polls the majority seem to be still against a protocol in the Windsor framework. I'm happy with the restoration of the executive in the assembly. But how do they think that that's going to lead to a sustainable Northern Ireland it seems to go in the opposite direction from that link to that is, what do they feel about the apparent. I think more than a parent lack of sympathy and interest in Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK. I mean you've obviously worked a lot in Glasgow in Scotland. That was the area with the area where there's a greater sympathy. And yet even that seems to have the Scottish understanding of Northern Ireland seems to have weakened and finally they're all related. The final one is why is the why have Unionist politicians, especially in the DUP seem to put so little emphasis on when friends elsewhere I worked in the European Parliament. Do you be never joined a political group in the US very little to counteract the incredibly effective Sinn Féin lobbying. And I just wonder why why that's the case. We hold these questions. Thank you. Thank you to the panel. It's been fascinating and I wanted to remember. Pat Hume today and 86th birthday I saw so. And but my so many questions and I'll just try and keep it down. So, one question is colleagues I worked within a project in UCL Connor Kelly and I'm Renwick in a podcast for Aaron's said that they thought there was a danger of demonizing loyalists and Unionists who aren't in a sense on message with the kind of alliance type Unionist voice and treating them as dinosaurs. And I wondered, do you think looking back over the past how many years, six, six years, maybe say, maybe from Johnson period particularly but were we all in a way down here did we tend to do that some of us. And that we underestimated the strength of identity just as national identity that this was an identity issue. So, one more question. I have niggly little questions about the shared island, and also the legacy case we're taking, because I understand all the reasons I'm a real shared island person as many of you will know. But I wonder for shared island it seems outside the agreement, it does seem like the mass O'Neill, no matter how much we refer to the agreements ethos. And that's slightly worries me a little. The legacy case is so delicate I won't really go there I suppose with it but just from, from a diplomatic perspective. It's obviously a response to a very undiplomatic British government over the past few years, but it is damaging. Could you and then I'm Trinity College Dublin. Yeah, thanks very much. Thank you. My name is Frank O'Donnell. I spend a good bit of time in this country, but I'm resident in Vienna, and I've worked for the UN for a long time. In the past 10 years of my retirement, I've spent a lot of my time moderating panel discussions between former presidents and prime ministers of different countries around the world, and also participating in Bertie Hernd's work in the Interaction Council. I think that everything that you said the three of you has been wonderful and I want to congratulate you and Tom for this fabulous, fabulous panel. And I'm particularly interested in what Charlotte was saying about the more global challenges we have. Now, from my point of view. This little Irish Anglo Irish cocoon is extremely important, because you have to succeed, you absolutely cannot afford to fail. The rest of the world is looking at the Irish experience, and it is so promising, especially the way the new executive has gone off. The two ladies working apparently closely together. But I think that the issue of rhetoric or narrative or language, if you wish, is extremely important. And one has to change the rhetoric, the dialogue. And it was a very important address given on the Judenplatz in Vienna by the American historian Timothy Snyder a few years ago, or basically it was on Europe Day he said, you are more than your friends. So, for all your identity issues. What really should matter most is perhaps the quality of connectivity, rather than the preservation of identity. So I want to leave that idea with you. And I'll stop there because I could go on for too long as I normally do. Frank, thank you very much. I couldn't remember where that you last Andy you had your hand up Andy Pollock please. I want to take up something that Jala said a couple of points that Jala said, what chance do you think there is for progress and stability in Northern Ireland, based on a kind of double compromise which was identified by Jala that the Unionists would accept that for the foreseeable future, there will be two states on this island. And Unionists would accept that a central part of the post Good Friday Agreement period is that there would be greater cooperation in areas like the economy climate and tourism that kind of double compromise. The Nationalists compromise on the two states, and the Union is compromised on all island cooperation. What, what should the speakers think are the realistic chances of that being the way forward. There's plenty in all of those questions for all of you but gave it I think the first couple of them were more towards you so could we start with you. I think that I'll start with your last question is the thing is a very good one about. I said it when I when I opened about the total lack of engagement that Unionists have have taken part in. That was a great frustration of mine in fact I think probably Arlene Foster at her height saw that as a as a clear need within the Unionist community. Again, I'm paraphrasing but you know I remember the idea and hearing where you know Danny Morrison had got leaflets regarding during the hunger strikes on the tables of senators in America. And I don't open that that can of worms tonight but that just highlighted how far ahead I think Sinn Fein were in their propaganda in comparison to Unionists and again just bear with me a short anecdote and again the fact shall not be all in the right order but you know if you recall when President Clinton got Jerry Adams an emergency visa. I think it was just pre ceasefire 94 if I'm not mistaken. And there was a peace conference in America and Unionists went to the peace conference as well but they stood outside with placards. And because of the immorality of allowing Jerry Adams and etc etc to be there. But when the world's media and we all know we make a choice regarding political leaders you know you're making the dinner and the kids are going mad in the background you see some of the TV and something clicks to say good, bad or ugly. And if the world's media takes a cast and glance at that event, who's the bad guy? You know is it the guy who despite all his denials you know according to Ed Maloney was the most influential man ever in the National IRA or is it the guys outside with the placards who you know maybe I've never heard a fly and I know the answer and that to me sums up where Unionism now is. I think in regarding the mindset and it's a difficult one. I was brought up west of the ban and you know to be honest I mean I'm the only ambition I went to school which was exclusively Protestant. I went to Bibi, I went to church, played football, the team that was a successfully Protestant. Probably actually never spoke to many Catholics in all honesty until I kind of got my first job and it wasn't because I was brought up in a Christian household, it wasn't a bigoted household, it was just society, the part of society lived in. I think probably that that sense of living in that kind of narrow mindset is still there for some Unionists. And it's not a criticism but it's because and I think you mentioned it's a bit how important our identity is to us. I think what has happened, particularly since the Belfast agreement, whether you want to say the Unionist, loyalist community has not made the most and benefited from European money, peace funding, whatever you want to call it. If I drive down areas in inner city Belfast or stereotypically Protestant, they're in a very different state of city than if I go down the Falls Road where their restaurants which are in the top five and TripAdvisor, there are community groups and so we in my view as Unionists will likely say we haven't benefited from the Belfast agreement the way Nationalists have. No, I think a lot of that is a problem of our own making, but I think that leads to the point about a minority of Unionists and loyalists feeling demonised. And in the UK, unless you are part of the Roma travelling community, the only other group that can do worse than you is white working class Protestant boys. It's true your chance of getting 5A stores to see a GCSE, so what that creates is an underclass of people. And I suspect that that is where, and you consider when Simon Coveney was there and there was the security alert. And that actually highlighted where someone like Simon Coveney would have been seen symbolically as a threat to the identity of certain loyalists. Because you've got to bear in mind, you know, without giving a history lesson, Unionists talk about their DNA going back to, you know, the Siege of Derry and shouting no surrender. The Somme, when, you know, the 36th House sort of isn't lost more men than anyone else that day. And I remember there being a sense reading up as I was growing older where there was a sense of the Unionism when he said to the British Government, you owe us. And I think it goes to your point where there's been a sense of betrayal amongst the Unionist community. And potentially going back as far as Lord Carson where, you know, essentially the Home Rule Bill, which was brought through by the British Government, and ironically was defeated by a man from Dublin. So, you know, that I think is ingrained within our DNA. And I think in particular, because of the education under achievement. Because now, particularly with the industrialization because now the level of deprivation which has become generational in certain parts of loyalists Northern Ireland. But there is a job of work to be done by the British Government by the House Government and by everyone to recognize that the people who have still opposed the protocol have clear legitimate political positions. And I think it is too easy, as you said, to demonize them as they want to go back to the good old days of when the Ulster Workers Council could bring Northern Ireland to a standstill. That's too easy. The reality of it is, you know, the Nigel Dodds is the Sammy Wilson's who are opposing this deal. He's not opposing it because, you know, Nigel Dodds was shot by the IRA and he's in visiting his disabled son was death bed. It's not because he wants to go back to the dark days is because he clearly believes, you know, an award winning barrister from Cambridge University. And he believes that there are concerns for the Unionist people. So I think overall you're right to say that's actually probably something that didn't mention earlier was that that piece around educational underachievement which I think is critical to the future stability of society. Yeah, it very obviously is. And so that the double compromise and the suggestion that we would officially say there's going to be no change is that what that's the kind of thing that you're talking about Andy. We're not even saying officially. Yeah, you see, we have so many agreements already. And that's it's it's already, it's already in an agreement that we're supposed to be cooperating north south. And in relation to a border, a border pole. And we some Sinn Fein might say that a border they've been saying really since since 2020 that we should have a border poll now United Ireland is around the corner. We know that that isn't true. And we, but we do know by looking at the figures that we are heading at some, it looks like we're heading to that point at at some stage, and because of the, the demographics of people who do want to United Ireland. Following. So I think we are on an interesting path, but I don't think anything about this island is inevitable. And I think you have to put the work into it rather than just saying, and that it's, it is going to happen. And I would be afraid, Andy, that if we took a position and said there's the status quo is is is as it is, as it said in the UK command paper. There were not accepting are that there is a constitutional aspiration that's legitimate and perhaps we have downplayed that constitutional aspiration over the last since the good Friday agreement. And that we do need to think about the future and and actually we do need to think about prioritising reconciliation politics and and the ask my aspiration that we do and reach a day where there is a United Ireland that's based on an agreed Ireland and and and one and where where reconciliation has been progressed and achieved. But I am I am constantly struck about the obsession with Sinn Féin, when you're you're talking about, you know, when Sinn Féin and Sinn Féin and what they're doing in the US and we know that Sinn Féin are in Europe with an aggressive strategy at the moment talking about the United Ireland as well. And I think, actually, we need to stop thinking about Sinn Féin's version of the future. And we need for for Unionists not to define themselves by what they're not, but who they are. And we as reconciled reconciliation politicians need to be very clear about what we stand for, and let Sinn Féin do what they're going to do, because I don't believe the triumphalist politics is going to win. And I'll just pick up on a couple of things. You're absolutely right about connectivity, but we overstate how, again, how close we are to a United Ireland, whenever only 0.6% of students from the north come south for university. How can we think and somebody that has lived in Turone and has lived in Dublin, and I'm looking at another fellow northerner who's lived north and south. It depresses me how actually the interest in the north is superficial. And that people don't really know each other and aren't as close as they should be and there is a massive disconnect. So we have so many paths to walk before we actually talking about the future that seems that some people think is around the corner, and there's so much that can be done without lobbing it in with constitutional and identity issues. And in relation to the educational on attainment and attains question about loyalism. I think the frustration was directed at politicians who should have known better about the, the, the impact of a hard Brexit, but I don't think anyone ever and has been annoyed or upset with loyalism or the unionist people. And actually, I agree completely about the importance of the good Friday agreement dividend. And part of the shared island funding is actually I think about 34 million that where we have said it should go towards education loyalist men in particular and programs. So, again, we know what the issues are. We just got to get on with doing them. David, do you want to come back in? Stepping and say, I think as immerse is, I think a lot of a lot of what you've mentioned is happening at the moment, I suppose on on on officially and I think that I was on the view a few weeks ago in the BBC and, you know, I said that the future of the union won't be one by people like me who walk with an orange color out in the 12th. It'll be one by people who are in Donegal in the 12th or people who are in Spain. Equally, I don't think a United Ireland will be achieved by people who are in Midtown Cemetery and Easter Sunday morning, because the same people will be in Donegal or Spain it's that middle ground. A lot of people who will be at David for for Ireland's game on Saturday. And I think and I know that Tim and I had spoken in this offline where if you consider the constituency I live in in South Belfast, you know, their Hanna Garner is a really strong vote because she's a good guy as individuals who hard worker and obviously an excellent representative. But I have no doubt that there will be people who vote for Claire, who would vote for me and part of the United Kingdom. And I think that that your writing or in highlighting where Sinn Fein's idea of the United Nations is not an example that anybody in this island should be should be achieving any more than certain people's ideas of Northern Ireland and some people who probably believe or I'll in being 2024 that we were still in 1924 were obviously you know the idea of an orange parliament for people and I think that, you know, we both have to look at the extremes and both sides to say I don't think anyone wants that. And I think it's about making as I say, the middle ground and as I say the people here in Donegal and Easter Sunday morning and on the 12th of July are people who will who will maintain the balance of the Thank you. Before going over to you, Charlotte and you've made a big chance to speak about, I just want to pick up something that's come in online and this is from Mike Nebs, Mike Nesbitt, who is a member of the board of the John and Patty Foundation, and it connects a bit with I think Andy's comment. And his question is, if Jarvis is correct about constitutional evolution, and I think he is, would the panel agree the least likely next outcomes are the status quo, and the traditional single 32 sovereign state. That's from Mike. Well, this was bringing on these point and Mike's point together. And, and also the issue of narrative, because narrative framing is critical to how we understand and explore the road ahead. Kind of conceptualizing as two states one system is really a simple way Andy for people to philosophically grasp the state of play, a way that people can understand the realities of the foreseeable future that we are not going to see constitutional revolution on this island. There will be constitutional evolution across both islands. We do need much greater one system thinking that's an absolute. And I've seen it when I was in the health service. I've seen it in other government departments that I've been attached to or worked with. And I think that coming to Mike's point then the next stage on this island will still involve a Northern Ireland, in my view, and a Northern Ireland assembly in my view will be in place for some time to come. And it actually needs to be so one of the things that the UK government did well, and they deserve credit for this is they built into the protocol article two, and article two is about the non diminution of the equality and rights provisions of the Good Friday agreement. That maintains that wasn't disputed by colleagues from a reunion background. It wasn't disputed by colleagues here in Dublin from the Irish government. It wasn't changed at all. So there are provisions within the agreement protected within the Windsor framework, which have to apply within the infrastructure of Northern Ireland as it currently exists. And I think in practical terms, there needs to be a reality check. We need, first of all, real politic to start informing how we interact with each other and how we go on that open exploration of the question around sustainable coexistence that I asked at the start. But the reality check about what it means to suddenly join public policy and public services across this island. And I'll give you an example. So I'm in the spend seven years as a senior manager in the health service. The emergency control rooms of the Northern Ireland ambulance service, please service of Northern Ireland, Northern Ireland fire service are all separate. They all operate on different software. Question today would be, it makes good sense that you would put together a program board to establish a single emergency call center for Northern Ireland. So the protocols that would need to be there with police information and so on, whereby emergencies could be responded to on a coordinated basis. That would make good theoretical sense would also cost a huge amount of money, tens of millions to do that kind of thing. It would also require a long term strategic plan. Now, does that happen today? Does that discussion even happen today in Northern Ireland or do we wait until there is some bigger constitutional change around Irish unity and then say, well, we can deal with it then. So we're in a conundrum of having to deal with public policy dilemmas, transformations, requirements today in both jurisdictions on the island, which have grown up like it or not differently. How do we then join those in a way that unites people, the firm will of the people and friendship and harmony to come together. We do that, I think, through one system thinking, and that means MOUs, it means greater cooperation. It means the two governments leading the exemplary symbolic and structural approach to leadership. More and more talking together, more and more appearing together. Yes, it will take some time for London to stabilize again. Yes, it is diverging, but I don't think that will go on forever. I think that the challenges that are coming in require all of us to have a different kind of approach, and that is starting to be understood in London. So that's where I see it, Andy. I think the language is about narrative. It's about shaping and framing the real politic that we're going to see in the time ahead. And I think that the bigger issue then just around people feeling included in society. Fair employment has worked in Northern Ireland. The campaign for the end of job discrimination and new fair employment legislation has worked. I sat on the Equality Commission for seven years. In recent years, complaints of political or religious discrimination in employment are well below 10%. That's a fundamental transformation in where Northern Ireland was at 30 and 40 years ago, when people like Eamor's father or my father were campaigning for civil rights. The same thing then can be applied in other aspects of social policy in terms of education, social inclusion, in terms also of a much more focused approach to public policy delivery. The riots that happened supposedly as a result of Brexit a number of years ago on the interface of the Springfield Road and the Shankle Road, happened precisely in the area where there was supposed to be a new university campus built, which was promised. The first sods dug by Bill Clinton and Tony Blair in 1997 or 1998 and Tim would remember that and the university never happened. So if we're going to promise things to people, we have to deliver them to them as well. I make a big exception. I was going to close, but you got your hand up just in time. So you literally have one of the last words. Thank you very much. Very free hill is my name. I'm, I suppose, almost a emeritus labour count city Dublin city councillor at this stage committee of the regions. And I'm a captain from Manor border girl and a Dublin woman. All of this has has deep resonance for me. And in fact, David, when you were talking about one's antecedents and so forth, I found it very interesting doing my family history and certainly finding a lot of intermarriages in the 1800s. In my family that would be considered Catholic and I think that's something we don't often think of you know there was a time when there was certainly much more. People who kind of see it as otherwise. Anyway, thank you very much for today and the thoughts that I just want to share with you is that I just, I'm very much agree with having greater integration and greater connection between north and south. I just think that the focus has been kind of more institutional. And there's not all that great an opportunity for people in the north and people in the south to come together and to get to know one another. And I found that I recently joined the Russell Society that Russell grew up in Larkin lived in Dublin most of his life and there, you know, we now have we instituted a new organization of the art club recently, where there are a lot of people now in the south who are also members. To try and actually get some help in actually having people travel north south, apart from the two dozen who, you know, are committed. It's not that easy. You know, we talk about the peace funds which you need very sophisticated administrative structures to be able to work through that. And a lot of the others. And even maybe I could put it to you. I'm just wondering if, if there might be, you know, thinking about maybe the idea of making it a little bit easier through maybe the peace funds by having administrative support systems, you know, for particular groups and particularly in the arts. We have seen, certainly in the, there were about nine months ago a wonderful concert in the concert hall from North Donegal and dairy and I mean that that was in fact that was the fruits of investment way back 30 years ago in dairy Donegal and in the there. So, you know, I think it's finding what we have in common and it doesn't have to be politics. It's the cultural discovery that we can make on the north and the south of this island and I just think it would be wonderful if we could actually get a little bit more help from whether it's historical groups, genealogical groups, political, you know, in the broad sense groups that I think it could be, you know, we can actually get down to the ground and I think that would be very useful and if you want to suggest anyone that I could talk to about that that, you know, where we could maybe try and do something about that that would be very useful. Thanks, Mary. And in a way that's a very fitting closure to our discussion. I want to thank the three of you because I think it's been a really rich and fruitful discussion. And I think it's one of it. This is exactly the sort of thing that's going to happen has to happen, much more frequently in many more circumstances. And I think there's no doubt about it that the new arrangement, the risk restoration of these of the institutions in Northern Ireland, and the way it appears that they are going the optimistic way that they've started. It's perhaps just a sense of a new beginning. And the question is, can that really, can the promise that that seems to represent be realized? I could give you a little forewarning of something else that's happening, which is going to add to the conversation. One of Ireland's most eminent filmmakers, who I think is watching online, Alan Gilson is launching on Sunday at the Dublin Film Festival at two o'clock in the lighthouse, a program, a new documentary called The Irish Question. And included in that is conversations and interviews with a very wide range of key people who have participated in The Irish Question from Bilshampton, John Major, a whole range of people, Alan was telling me about it the other day. And I think given his reputation and his production of only excellent work, I think that's another, that will be one of the next contributions to this debate. But this contribution this evening has been important. And I think thanks to the EIA and the Human Foundation for sponsoring it. And let us continue.