 Bingo! It's Monday, 12 o'clock rock. I'm Jay Fiedel. Happy to be here on Think Tech. And we have Mina Marco and me on Monday. That's our show. And the co-host here in the studio is Mina Morita, and the co-host who joins us by Skype Audio from what? Kona? Hilo. This is Marco Mangostore for Provision Solar. We're all together and we have Shelley Kimura and we have Commissioner Lorraine Akiba. This is a big show. That's why we're giving it 45 minutes today. Exciting, all right? So, and we're calling it Women in Power. Yay! It's that double entendre, you know? We're going to explore that. Yes. Okay, I'm going to turn it over to Marco now and he's going to introduce our three guests. Well, I want to tell you all sincerely how appreciative I am and thankful for being able to get the five of us together. And I'm so thrilled to have three of my good friends, four of my good friends and energy there to be able to sit down before you. So, thank you all so much for joining Jay and I and Mina today. And it is just really special, I think, to be able to get such a lustrous lineup of women in power in our little stage here. And I really look forward to this show over the past weeks and I think it's going to be fun, fun, fun. Shelley Kimura from Hawaii Electric Light Company. I'm very pleased to have joined us. Shelley is the Vice President of Business and Strategic Planning, Corporate Development and Renewable Acquisition. That wouldn't be Hawaii Electric Light Company, that would be Hawaiian Electric. Let's talk about the parent here. Excuse me, excuse me. Yeah, Hawaiian Electric Company and then we have our co-host and dear friend, Mina Merida, who has a long history of being involved in the energy field, first as a representative from the 14th District on Kauai, former chair of the House Energy and Environment Committee and then also chair of the Public Utilities Commission under Neil Abercrombie and then finally our friend, Lorraine Akiba, who is an actual serving member of the current commission with fellow commissioners Randy Oase and then Tom Gorak. So truly an all-star lineup today and I'm so pleased to be part of it. Great. Mark, we're going to take one second break to make sure everything's connected and we're going to come right back, okay? We're back, we're live. We have Mina Merida, a co-host of this program, Mina Marco and me and we have Marco, of course, the other co-host in Hilo and Provision Solar. We have Shelley Kimura from Hawaiian Electric, Vice President of Planning and Development and we have Commissioner Lorraine Akiba from the Public Utilities Commission, wow, an all-star cast. So, Marco, will you start the questions now? I guess my first question is kind of a general one to each of you, is what led you to decide to get involved in the energy field? You've kind of, each of you have kind of taken somewhat different directions and I'd just like to give you a chance to address that question and explain what kind of path you took in terms of getting involved and what has been predominantly for a long, long time, a male-dominated field. So, what led you to take this down? Yeah, what he wants to know is what fantastic event happened, what epiphany happened, Mina, in your life that you should get involved in energy, what happened that day? Oh, simple. When I got re-elected in my second term, I actually wanted to be chair of water and land use and I was totally happy to do with the environment, yeah. And I was told no because, you know, I've taken some controversial stands and nobody wanted energy and environmental protection and so I ended up with energy and environmental protection and the first year I was a chair, I mainly worked on environmental issues and it was a down economy at that time and all the programs were getting cut and so I didn't feel productive at all and during the interim I was trying to form an agenda and, you know, with oil prices up, economy down, you know, if I wanted to make a difference I had to fix the economy and the way to fix the economy was to address energy issues so that's how I got started. It all connects up and I mean I don't want to go too far on this point but this was 20 years plus ago, yes? That was in 98? 98, okay. Well, not quite 20 years. Almost. What about you, Shelly? So, you know, my path is kind of a windy path. I didn't set out to be an energy like Nina but it ended up being that way. I think early on, I mean I've always been very focused on environment and, you know, growing up in Hawaii and when I went to college very much focused on stewardship of our land and our environment that kind of angle but I ended up going into accounting and getting my CPA license. It's a great combination. A lot of likely combination. I was going to go back and get my law degree but, you know, life happens and I didn't do that and one thing led to another and I ended up at Kamehameha Schools working at Kamehameha Schools full-time as a consultant focused on land issues and endowment issues and then the opportunity came to go to Hawaii Electric or AGI, the parent company and, you know, as a woman I had my first child second one was on the way and so it was more of a work-life balance decision at that time to get out of consulting and do what I perceived to have more work-life balance which I didn't. So it took me down that path and then Hawaii Electric Company entered into the Clean Energy Agreement in 2008 and that was something that I had a lot of passion for. So we heard the sound of roar and world-changing November, I think it was, 2008. October, yeah. So that was something that I felt very passionate about and wanted to get behind and just kind of kept me there since then. Did you have any trepidation about, you know, being a woman going into energy at that time? You know, I didn't. It never really fazed me that way so that wasn't part of my mindset as I went forward. Great. Marina Keeba, you started out as a lawyer. Yes, I did. And how did the path wind for you? Well, I think the path came from being a lawyer. I know that as a member of the community I've always been engaged and very much passionate about things to do with the environment, with sustainability, with climate change and issues. And in my law practice, I headed the environmental practice groups for both of the law firms where I was a partner at. But it really comes from being a young person here in Hawaii growing up and my parents influence those values of taking care of not just, you know, the land but also the creatures and species and the sustainable balance. It's probably from that Buddhist value of you're just part of a universe and the concepts that Shelley talked about stewardship. And I think what brought me into energy was really the opportunity to work with, you know, with the leadership at the time under Governor Abercrombie and Marina was chair at that time at a very dynamic time and so my passionate interest in the environment and, you know, the energy nexus with the environmental issues is so critical. Being able to be a servant leader and to continue to stay true to those values is why I ended up here in the energy space where it is very important right now a lot of critical issues. So it really does take women to make a difference. So you were practicing in energy law, environment and energy law. By the way, that's the common denominator, isn't it? Environmental stewardship, that's what I get from all three of you, which is really something. It's really different than, you know, say in the past when a guy would go to school, a guy, notice I said guy, a guy would go to school and study engineering and that got him into energy. This is different. So you were practicing energy law and then one day somebody called you and said Lorraine, how would you like to be a PUC commissioner? Did you snap that up? I had to think about that. Like what does that involve? What was, you know, because I did not regularly appear in front of the public utility commission. Actually my energy practice was in arbitration, mediation and in the courtroom context being a litigator in that area. So, and maybe that was good because I didn't appear before the public utility commission. So there was no potential bias or agenda or having any preset notion of what to do. I think just taking on the duties of my responsibilities and living up to what the charge of the job is is to decide things in the public interest to also not just regulate utilities but also to be part and parcel of the policymaking functions that fall to the commission. It's a very important agency, a quasi-judicial as well as policymaking and that's probably why I think the women that have come into the energy industry are so important because a lot of policy needs to be made at a critical time. Isn't that the truth? This is the policy time. Before it was the engineering time this was the policy time but I would imagine that when you came into the PUC it was like an immersion course in technology. Yes, it was. Definitely hit the ground running but I was used to that as a complex commercial litigation attorney so got to learn fast and absorb like a sponge like Mike Champley and then also immersed myself in the opportunities and getting involved with the National Association Regulatory Utility Commissioners to have a perspective beyond just our island grids and to see what's happening on the mainland with sister states that are doing some similar things that we can share best practices and also let them know what we're doing that's wonderful here. Yeah, because we have something to give, don't we? We do. Oh, wait a minute. That was my question and I think we reversed it. Marco, why don't you take the next question? So you've all brought various kind of taking various different paths to where you are now from the utility side for Shelley Regulatory for both MENA and the Lorraine legislative for MENA so this question is how do you find it's been different as a woman to participate in the energy field compared to men and kind of a similar question follow on to that is what particular challenges as a woman have you encountered in the energy field? Lorraine, why don't we start with you? Okay, well I think you know I've always been in a field where there's previously a man dominated I would say probably legal profession and being a partner in a major law firm I mean in years past you probably wouldn't see a woman partner You're breaking barriers all over town. Well, that's part of what women leaders do, Jay. Okay, okay, thank you. But I think what's important is that while there is a need to build off the past and the foundation and utilities especially in the energy industry area there are certain obligations for reliability safety, resiliency but there's also a need to break out of the box to look at innovation and to embrace innovation and technology I think an ability that women have so I believe that having more women in the energy space allows for that creative thinking and hopefully the egos don't get in the way that people can be open minded more flexibility, more ability to be open to new ideas and to also facilitate dialogue I think women have by virtue of the societal values that have been put on us we're able to facilitate we're able to mediate, we are able to listen and those are important skills that are needed in this energy landscape now especially if we want to move forward and face and address the challenges. Isn't that true? That's all true actually. So Shelly, you got into this how did you in a company that has been dominated by male engineers, may I say that for a long time or a hundred years how did that feel and how did you feel you fit and how did you feel the men were seeing you or did you see the men? Well, I think Hawaiian Electric might be unique in that Connie Lau is our CEO Ah true, lest we forget She's at the table but of HCI, yeah and when you look at Hawaiian Electric company itself there's a large number of executive women in the ranks and so I didn't really feel out of place. I don't know if it's more of being a woman or the fact that I didn't have an engineering background that was more of the challenge and being able to leverage both the men and the women with the engineering background on my teams to be able to put that together with the strategic and the financial concepts and how do we leverage innovation to be able to move forward and really lead the nation as we try to reach these nation leading RPS schools that we have. And when you add the environmental stewardship to the say the formula, the mix of elements that existed before I think women do fit very well in that as Lorraine pointed out Yeah, they actually have studies about when women succeed and women succeed more when they're fighting for a cause that's not there for themselves not promoting themselves but fighting for other people or fighting for a mission and so I think that's probably why women will do well when it comes to clean energy. I actually went to a national conference that was focused on clean energy and women and this was one of the things that they brought up which I thought was very interesting and also the fact that it's going to take lots of parties working together building on what Lorraine was saying to make this happen and because of the way that we're brought up as women you know part of it is genetic part of it is just the way we're brought up is to collaborate and find that common ground and be able to move things forward. Yeah, great and it's amazing, isn't it? I mean, would you say that as proportioned or more women in energy or at least in Hawaiian electric, in utility energy than the word say when you joined? Yeah, I would say that that's true Yeah. Lots of interest as well because of what Hawaii is trying to do. Yeah, right. It helps us recruit. We have much on our plate, yeah. Me and Marina, gee, I'm trying to remember if there was a woman on the PUC before you joined. Well, for that matter Yes, there was. Their names just escaped me but there were several. I mean, I think at least three before me. So how is it different for a woman in energy, on the PUC in the legislature doing energy? Let me tell you about a story in the legislature when I first started working on bills and I think this was kind of a primary difference between a male perspective and a female perspective. When you start off with bills people usually have think what they want at the end in the bill at the very beginning and so usually the guys would take that particular bill all the way to the end and at the last minute try to fix it and many women in the legislature improve the bills as they go along to come to a final end product. You're probably going to say that's a better way to do it. Personally, yes. I think so but what caught me off guard in the beginning was at the end I had nothing to negotiate out and the guys had lots to negotiate and so it was a very interesting analysis. So I think just how we process is very different and so how to accommodate those. So do we need both styles or will one prevail? I think you need both styles but just there has to be a real good understanding of how people come to decisions how people make decisions how people perceive a problem and I think before it used to be really easy because we're dealing with a lot of linear problems you're trying to find one solution for the problem but now we're dealing with really complex systems we're dealing with environmental, social and economic problems and engineering problems and so the problem solving is more complex it takes better understanding more education and better collaboration amongst all the stakeholder groups and that's going to continue for sure and I think women are just a little bit more patient in trying to achieve the best results to these problems. Okay now we have a more interesting question regarding the challenges or whether it's easier working with other women than working with men maybe we've touched on that already but I'm curious to see Okay well so now there are as we know there are more women coming into the field and that probably is going to continue because of the skill sets the approach, the cultural experience so is it easier to work with women who take their approach with men what is your experience of that we're really drilling down now well let me jump in here I think it is actually now a good thing how more women in there and I can say that from my personal experience of dealing with the National Association of Utility Commissioners a lot of the commissioners coming in into chair positions and into leadership positions in the committees for women and if any of the dialogue and I think it's a focus on team building and even though many of the women have the same concerns it's a different way of problem solving and that's definitely allowing a comfort zone for people to be able to express their opinions and that reasonable people can differ as opposed to it being drawing a line in the sand and being combative I think Shelly kind of alluded to it you know men are from Mars and women are from Venus we do have different skill sets and that's a dynamic a dynamic society we aren't all the same I mean there are strong women it's not a matter of being weaker or strong or passive I think it's just a different way of approaching and team building and I think women are very much focused on outcomes getting the job done improving the process making sure that everybody feels they are involved in that process because so at the end of the day even if you didn't get what you thought to be the actual solution you feel that you've been given the due process you've been involved in the dialogue so that when people have to make a decision and the consensus or someone individually makes a decision there is more buy-in so I find it's actually it's refreshing sometimes because we don't have to do all that ego testosterone thing on the table just get to it and if you only have 45 minutes for a meeting people know it's 45 minutes for a meeting let's get to it let's focus on getting the job done these women have things to do they have children to take care of husbands to take care of they're multitasking in their other parts of their lives so they get it done so at this point in time we all talk about collaboration all day long and collaboration has got to be one of the most important things in making energy happen reaching our goals because it brings people together it builds teams and all that what would you add to that Shelly? I have an experience with my daughter she joined a Lego robotics team and that team had been together for three or four years all boys from her kindergarten class and at one point maybe fourth grade they decided they wanted to add two girls to add some diversity to the group and help balance them out and so they added two girls my daughter and one other girl and the other parents who had been on the team for a while said how much the group improved with the addition of the girls and I think that that's just the dynamics of a team to have diversity on a team makes a team better because the more perspectives you have the better answer you're going to come up with so it's not just about men and women but it's just different experiences, expertise gender may play into it as well and coming up with the ideas and the answers and being able to move something forward is all important. But on the team the women have to be able to express themselves absolutely if you don't have your voice then you're not going to be heard so it's important to do that and I think it's important to teach our girls and our women coming up in the ranks to trust in their own authentic leadership style because our leadership style is not necessarily going to be the same as a man's leadership style but it's still effective and not look at what a woman is as a limitation but as a strength and I think that we have to embed that in our women coming up the ranks I love this show it's a great show, this is a very important show so much so that we're going to take a short break now we'll come right back and then we'll go to more questions that we have and feel even better and better about it. Aloha my name is Carl Campania I am the host of Think Tech Hawaii's Education Movers, Shakers and Reformers we hope you join us every Wednesday at noon right here Think Tech Hawaii as well as on OC16 our show covers a range of important topics regarding education, our educational system where we are where we're going, where we need to go and some of the important people that are working on that from state legislators to department heads to teachers and students, we bring in everyone we possibly can to have a comprehensive conversation about the educational system here in Hawaii. So we hope you join us again every Wednesday at noon here on Think Tech Hawaii. Mahalo Aloha I'm Marcia Joyner inviting you to navigate the journey with us we are here every Wednesday morning at 11am and we really want you to be with us where we look at the options and choices of end of life care. Aloha we're back, we're live, I'm Jay Fidel here on Mino, Marca Marco, Mina and me women in power, a very special show with Mina Morita Shelly Kimura and Lorraine Akiba current commissioner of the PUC and Marco it's your turn so why don't you ask the next question that we have in store for our guests so as as women in power here in Hawaii do you find that there is much of a difference working in the energy field here in our Aloha state compared to what you know or women that you know working in the energy field on the mainland well you know when I do travel to the mainland and also talk with colleagues from the mainland and meet with the utility representatives from the mainland I see the same diversity and many of these come from traditional utilities that were previously dominated by male executives, male engineers but the same trends that are Hawaiian Electric is not unique in terms of the issues that we face here in Hawaii and also the new wave and next generation of women engineers and men quite frankly that are coming in open to the different things that are happening in the energy space so I don't see it as necessarily being different I think what is a positive thing is that as more women have come into the energy space there is somebody's daughter there is somebody's sister there is somebody's mother in positions of responsibility and power are looking at some of these folks as they with their own family members and so it is more of again I think an awareness that exists and especially because some of these issues do touch on policy and many of the women are involved in those areas I think there's been quite a good synthesis of ideas from both men and women I don't see it as an adversarial thing at least not in the communities and with the utilities and regulators I've had contact with Shelly you know we have learned over the past couple of years that not all utility companies are the same and that the cultures in one company maybe the culture in one company may be different particularly when you're dealing with a culture in a utility company in Hawaii versus a culture in a utility company on the mainland and we've established that one of the baselines at least in Hawaii is the notion of environmental stewardship not all the companies on the mainland may feel the same way about it so in your travels how do you feel a woman's career would be different in a utility company on the mainland it's hard to say I mean I've interacted with a lot of other utilities I part of my career I was doing investor relations so I traveled a lot meeting with a lot of the investor community and it was mostly male in the utility and energy industry I think that and this is just my perception but on the mainland the culture is a lot more aggressive just overall regardless if you're a female or a male and so I think that women's style in general is not as aggressive in Hawaii it's not as much and it's more inclusive so perhaps it's a little easier for women to be accepted and integrate into the business world in Hawaii than on the mainland and it's a little bit more of a fight for some of my colleagues that I've spoken to interesting observation Mina how about you how do you feel it works you do a lot of travel these days and you go to conferences what's the difference between a woman in energy such as your own career versus a woman in energy on the mainland or in another country for that matter well first of all I just have to correct the record since I'm retired most of my travel has been but I think you know talking about leadership in general whether you're a man or a woman what you really want a leader is a person that can bring out the best qualities of their employees or individuals regardless of gender so I think that's the most important thing how do we get beyond the gender line but really what kind of leaders are out there that can bring in the best qualities of a person into the workplace in terms of supervising you know the team do women have an advantage over men or do men have an advantage over women who? you know hopefully we're getting to a point where both will be nurturing okay okay I think that's what I would like to see but you know again I think it's always been the primary responsibility of a woman to be the nurturer whether it's her household or within the workplace many times and so nurturing builds loyalty doesn't it trust I think trust transparency, credibility, respect fairness I think those are the leadership qualities that whether you're a man or a woman you should exemplify sometimes people aren't able to do that and therefore they're not as effective in being a leader but that's important and I think one more attribute that is important in the energy area especially for utilities when we talk about the utility of the future is the courage to be visionary and that is a trait that hopefully we're cultivating in both men and women and in the next generation of energy leaders because it is a very challenging time and I think to the credit of many women in the profession they've had to face barriers they've had to break through do 200% and maybe a colleague a male colleague only had to do 100% but I think that's the kind of grit the kind of courage the kind of tenacity that a lot of women who do want to contribute and do want to excel bring to the workplace so I've seen it and observed it so I think it's a positive thing Inherent in that is the willingness to take risks courage you mentioned I think the best leaders I've seen have been good coaches they know when to rebuild they understand what it takes to lay the foundation and when everything is going right they know how to step back and just encourage so whether it's a male or female I think we see some extraordinary women leaders of that of that nature in Hawaiian Electric actually Connie Lau is a good example so is Lynn Unimori Lennie you're listening Connie what would you add to that Shelley? we have a lot of women leaders in our company we have Sharon Suzuki and Darcy Endoomoto and we had Wong we have a lot of women in those leadership positions which I think helps both our executive team but also our workforce to cascade that diversity and appreciation for that diversity throughout the organization Marco it's time to ask the compensation question are you ready to do that? you want me to do it? well start it off anyway this is an interesting question I think for the three of you Lorraine, Shelley and Amina do you believe that the compensation the monetary compensation is comparable for women as it is compared to men here in Hawaii and how does it compare as far as you know with let's say compensation on the mainland? is there a disparity? have you ever noticed a disparity? I know that there are studies that women typically get paid less and it's interesting because they've shown that women won't ask and that's part of the issue that men will actually go and ask for the raise or ask for something more when they're negotiating in a new job and women won't necessarily do that and when you don't do that and that just compounds year after year as you're getting your whatever percent there's a huge difference at the end so it's hard for me to say whether it's an institutional issue or just what someone's willing to negotiate and ask for and that supervisors are shown to focus on those that are being vocal about it and not so much on those that are silent so I think that's just a lesson for myself and for all of us it matters speaking up I think we fare a little better in Hawaii than the rest of the nation I think the average for the rest of the nation for equal pay for equal work is about 75 cents to a dollar and in Hawaii I think it's around 82 cents to a dollar with having unions is helpful in creating more equality for pay but there still is this disparity and I think that's at all levels there is pay disparity I think that's a big issue in the last election nationally it's all resolved now I'm sure it's going to get much better even at the corporate level in terms of the glass ceiling we talk about that there are examples of corporate women who have risen to the top and if they continue to set the example I mean local economy I can thank for Kana and I mean out there really quite a visionary and a very articulate and a dynamic leader but those are far and few between so we need to do more I think as a society as a state it becomes an issue as Mina said who is the most effective leader maybe I come from a law firm you basically are you have to be aggressive about your compensation when it comes time to divvying up the partnership proceeds I'm used to that but most people aren't and especially in Hawaii where we're taught to be consensus building to be humble again it's encouraged but it is again a matter of courage to speak up if you don't think that somebody is doing something correctly or right by you as an employee then you should speak up the people who run the show whether they be men or women should not allow the disparity and they should come to you I noticed Shelly that you didn't ask for as much money as you might have last time around so I'm telling you because we think no matter what you ask for you're worth X which is the same thing we would pay a man the guy on top or the woman on top takes that point of view then you don't have to be too aggressive because they kind of do it for you and I was speaking generally at Hawaii Electric we do something that we call calibration that we look across all areas and make sure that we're looking at everything in an equal manner well we're at the last part of our show now we're at the part where we ask you to look into camera number one okay oh that's number one over there right straight ahead of you okay and address the audience whoever they may be men in energy, women in energy everybody in energy they may be from your constituencies they may be high school kids thinking about what to do with their lives in the environment in the stewardship in energy so Marko why don't you frame the question that you would like to see our three guests you know address in talking to the public Jay so the question is at this point in your your careers and at this point in your path in the energy field what candid thoughtful advice would you give to women in the energy field coming up behind you and do you think it's easier to be accepted and taken seriously now compared to a handful of years ago but I guess to really be interested to hearing what kind of advice you would give to those coming up the ladder behind you Nina why don't you start oh I guess I'll start with I have four granddaughters you know eleven, nine, nine and three and I would say the same to them they can do anything that they want you know the future is theirs to hold and there's no limits and you know the jobs that we have available now you know they're not limited by gender and so you know in order to get ahead get a good education you know be truthful work hard and you know the sky's the limit and ask for help a lot of people don't ask for help and especially for women entering the energy field right now in Hawaii we have a wire women in renewable energy which is a good support group you know and support groups are important mentors are important offering that and you know just the ability to socialize with other women in the industry Shelby let's see so I have two daughters and so you know whenever I'm in a situation where I'm trying to make choices you know I do think of my daughters and my children I have two daughters and one son and there's always those choices you're trying to make and you're always pulled career family you know husband children whatever it is and it's not easy and everybody makes their individual choices and you don't have to follow the path of any other one individual everybody creates their own path and figures out what works for them and again it's always just being true to yourself and what you believe in and what you value and I think that makes a stronger person and a stronger leader so you are able to be effective in whatever your passion is and whatever career that you end up choosing to go into and as far as energy for anyone that's considering any you know female or considering going into energy is such an exciting field right now and one in which you can truly make a difference in society in the world so I encourage folks to do that if they have an interest it's going to become more and more exciting as we go forward too Lorraine you're last you you're the anchor man on this I want to echo everything both Mina and Shelly say because it's true you know in terms of mentors support group which we have now and I think about my own manager which was my mom you know and she was a very strong and you know talking about breaking the glass ceiling back in her day being a Japanese American physician at her time was you know there was only a few and she had to deal with a lot of issues and challenges so I take a lot of inspiration from her and it is true that you have to keep true to yourself be strong and get the skill sets as Mina pointed out so that you can effectively demonstrate that you have the skills and I would I would say that it is important to be true to your own compass and to never doubt yourself I would like to encourage everybody to see a movie I just saw actually this weekend called The Eagle Huntress and it's a documentary about a young woman 13 years old in Mongolia in Kazakhstan she's the first female eagle hunter in her tribe her father was very supportive her grandfather was very supportive but the rest of the elders thought that this was not something that a woman should do she was phenomenal she's a strong woman, smart trained, did all the skill sets to become the most phenomenal eagle huntress and she won the competition and she also successfully hunted on her first hunt with her father so you have to see the movie because it's an empowering movie about girls can be empowered women can be empowered there are no limits you choose what you want to do and you live true to your own compass just like the Polynesian voyagers you keep true to your star and you find that course even in choppy and stormy waters women in power Lorraine Akiba Shelly Kimura, Mina Morita and I'm going to leave it to you Marco to close this you have the closing remarks so say farewell I think it's been a fantastic show Jay and Lorraine, Shelly and Mina thank you so very much for making time out of your day today and I do hope this is something that we can do on at least on my regular basis in the month and year to come because I think there's still so much more that we can talk about and I think it's just been a superb way to spend past 45-46 minutes so thank you all again, thank you Jay for being the host and questioner there with me you rock the world as you always shall so thank you again thank you Marco thank you ladies it's been a great discussion Aloha and Happy Christmas