 I've been muted here for the last minute so welcome to a reference architecture call Can folks confirm they can hear me now? Yeah, we can hear you down Thanks, so I we have a new version of The landscape that we're talking about that I sent out by email yesterday, and I want to thank Lucina for taking notes today I'd love to get people's impressions on this and changes Or ideas for either this version or things we might want to change going forward I think we have several folks from NAPS on the call And so if they're willing I would actually maybe call in ginger first if You have any thoughts on this or if you just want to listen up You just want to listen in and it's some star six to unmute your I'm happy just listening in to start with You know, I read your email that you had written back to Derek and I understand The multi-categoring thing would make things even more busy than it is right now So I'm just going to listen in for right now and and see where we best fit Okay Lee could I maybe call on you? I think you had some concerns about hysterics and Others and I think there's some belief that Ah Envoy is going to be unhappy with being moved over to load balancer and I think you were making an argument that they needed to be Because they don't have a control plane. Oh, yeah, sure I'm trying to refresh my memory on the that you know that I'd sent Saying I think just that So it is right now the categories as we have them RPC load balancer API gateway service mesh Um Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, there's certain. I don't know how much this plays into Or the popularity of a certain terms play into how it is that different projects would like to be categorized But in this case like service mesh being I think a very hot and popular topic and one that You know speaks beyond load balancer Um Then you recollected I say I was saying hey, perhaps Envoy isn't necessarily appropriately Doesn't necessarily sit into service mesh as the most appropriate category That would make I may be misremembering because it was a month ago, but yeah, my my memory is that You were saying the the key just deciding factor of a service mesh is a control plane as opposed to a data plane And that Envoy very much doesn't have that control plane I I agree with myself What an insightful comment you made And of course anyone else can feel free to Speak up not to interject in front of anyone else, but it's some additional context to the statement that had said was that I think One way that that statement is implicitly reinforced is that if you look at projects that Fall into the service mesh category and there may be a few that we don't have listed here. They are Envoy has enjoyed a Lot of reuse and ingestion into other projects as other projects are building capabilities on top of Envoy and Some what generally those capabilities are oftentimes referred to as the control plane Whether it's control plane or just Some other set of code that's giving Envoy instruction and telling Envoy what what to do there's a lot of that there's There's one in here that probably follows more into the API gateway category called ambassador And we might have it in this list or not. I'm not sure. I don't know that we we have to yeah It's it's under API gateway. So it's built on so this is a great example than it So ambassador is prominently built on top of Envoy, but it adds some additional things toward what you would need as an API gateway It's deal leverages Envoy, but it can be displaced by other by engine X or Or other load balancers Some of which we aren't in here, but and so I think that actually just giving those as examples reinforces the notion that Hey, Envoy isn't you know doesn't have all the capabilities that you would expect of a mash itself But is a fantastic project that other that not only is a load balancer onto its own But that other projects have built on top of to extend it into other categories Yeah, I hope Matt agrees with what you will will see Maybe the terminology reverse proxy would be better than load balancer Since load balancing is kind of one specific use case of a reverse proxy Yeah, I don't know Well, yeah, I mean, that's like a really concrete Proposal that's pretty easy to change. So if you definitely feel like reverse proxy is the superset term I that that's not a term that concerns me. Yeah, I think it probably the better term In my opinion Any other feedback so Envoy describes itself as an edge and service proxy So I wonder if a proxy would be a more Reverse proxy. Yeah, or just yeah service proxy. I mean reverse reverse proxy is pretty much standard nomenclature You know things like ha engine x all consider that some consider themselves as reverse proxies To do implement things like load balancing other, you know, other types of things you could do with reverse proxy As opposed to like squid is what people think of as a forward proxy Yeah, or like, you know content. Yes, and when I think of squid, I think it kind of content cashing and that You know, that's like a capability, you know, a capability that engine x provides as a reverse proxy Like that. Maybe Chris said it sounds like what you're trying to say is Reverse proxies the base. Yeah, I mean service proxy may may work also I think I think I'm I'm more open. I think I'm yeah, I think that's the one I'm leaning towards it if folks don't Want to put it back in a different direction Okay, Tyler said squid could be a reverse proxy to I mean, yeah So it's service proxy may kind of encompass both reverse and and forward sale. Let's let's do So they're all trying to add features. Yeah, the same features the other project. Yeah So I would do you want to Yeah reiterate that Taxonomy is hard and there is no perfect answer for this stuff No, almost no project fits fully into one subcategory and into the others We are just trying to find a good enough answer. I think we'll go with service proxy Did you we want to speak up on anything else? Yeah Maybe I'll make this next statement by reinforcing what you just said which is Categorization is is hard the way in which I had thought of hysterics in the past and even a little bit of ribbon and finagle and Aka was something of client libraries Which isn't the category that we have here. I don't I'm not advocating that we create yet another category But just but I think Then you'd asked it, you know about history explicitly and so Kind of to the same Characterizing or definitive line for how we were qualifying things that fall into service mesh. It was like, well, you know For me hysterics landed into like a client library category, but you know So for hysterics, I was going to use the excuse that they don't have a commit in the last four months to remove them for now and We can look at adding the back at some point in the future if they If the project becomes active again, but it's May 4th is their last Commit and and we generally trying to take people out after three months But the place where it also has come up is we had a service comb under which we moved up to application definition and image build and I think it's just service comb where it's just it's a little bit of a strange project, so it's a microservice framework with functionality of service management I Kind of roughly put it in application definition, but it didn't didn't seem like a perfect fit For my part, I haven't looked at service calm But then you did take the words out of my mouth about Historic night. I was hesitant to suggest that maybe maybe it's not a happening project. And so maybe it's not worth But yeah, I do want to give a Shoutout here to Andre Kozloff who's the developer in in Europe who's been working with us for almost a year now on the interactive landscape And has just done spectacular work on having this dynamically generated static landscape So he's on the call for the first time And I will just paste in two kind of cool links That to sort of get what one of the things that this now allows is that you can filter on the static landscape so the first link is Just looking at the Apache projects and I think it's pretty interesting how they are all on the top left side of our of our landscape and then here are the CNCF ones and you can see that We're sort of much more scattered around but there's still definitely some areas that don't have a CNCF hosted project Okay, let me open it up to some other folks on the call Taylor curious if you want to Offer any suggestions or feedback or Watson Michael Ducey Yeah, I had a couple of questions Mainly around We want to put products on and projects on here not necessarily companies. Is that correct? Yeah, it's very much designed for projects in in in white and products not open source products in gray Okay So there's a couple changes. I would just suggest Around cystic so we should put something around cystic monitor in the observability and analytics section and then Cystic secure as well as cystic falco, which I see is on there underneath the security And compliance section as well Okay, the challenge for you is that we generally have a rule of One product per company Or else that so it's sort of the product that the the company is best known for and the exception for it that we do is With it the two exceptions, I guess our open source projects. So like hashy corpus on here five times and A few cloud providers that have a just a huge number of offerings But even there we've been pretty stingy on how many we do but I think the simplest one It's just that what's already listed on on platform. You're change saying just change it from cystic to cystic monitor, correct? It's not a platform. It's under observability and analysis. Yeah, I'm sorry that's what I meant under under observability Um, so if you could even just Slack me the details. I'm happy to make that change for you right away Cuz I actually I think we are just about ready to publish this and and hopefully it's gonna get kind of a new Focus and engagement when people see how cool just to statically generate these some dynamically generate these static images Yeah I was looking at this Generally speaking, I think it looks pretty good. I think the only question that came up was the on boy one, but Sounds like that's already been answered They stood in one more link for a hashy corpus to see sort of their view of the landscape Yeah, I guess we need more open source projects then huh? Yeah, oh Sorry, I was wondering what are the plans for the projects that are going? Eventually more and more hopefully are graduated sandbox, but those type of On the last view that you have those are larger We're taking up more room. So what are the plans with that as more and more get added in principle the So Yeah, at some point we'll have so many projects on here that this won't work anymore I guess is another way of answering it for now We can slightly shrink the size of the Of the cards that we needed to so I'm hoping we have another six months or a year before we need to do a major Rethinking of this And I mean I will point out that yeah, the kind of natural things we could get rid of is the platforms and the the KCSPs and the KTPs, but it would bum me out a little bit to do that because You know they're Some of the biggest supporters of of what we're trying to do at CNCF So I would hate to remove them, but hopefully we can last last a while longer Maybe I like the highlighting. I'm just wondering the plan. Yeah, if Well, um Is there a way to View projects that we were just talking about Envoy ban and as a for service mesh, where is it going to go? Would it be reverse proxy and other things? There's projects which Different people would think should be in a different category Is there support for saying this project is the main category that you can filter and look at it In a different category So it would actually show up Yeah, there's definitely not and um It is something that we could potentially add but basically what uh, you know, we have this landscape.yml file Which drives the whole landscape and what's occurred to me Is to add a separate Essentially a new key and value Which would be alternative subcategories And um, so here's the landscape And you could imagine just for any of them being able to also list something as uh in um Yeah, I mean I actually Maybe ginger wants to speak up on that for for Nats ginger you're you've suggested that some people are using it as Uh an rpc platform And some people are using it as a as a service mesh as well, correct? Yes, I'm sorry. We feel that nats is just they can be in different categories and not just in The messaging and streaming um, so We would like like that would be a good um Maybe solution to what we're saying where we could have The main landscape with us in the streaming and Messaging but then if you filter it differently you could also see it in in other spaces. I think that might be a good plan I think that would be a great idea Not to make things harder Yeah, this is collin and the next Um, yeah, I do think that'd be a great idea of having subcategories maybe in the or overlapping categories maybe in the project details And then you know from a different perspective being able to filter So show me everything that can be a load balancer or show me everything that can be a service mesh And maybe on this front page you see the primary areas that projects are in but upon filtering you can get a more detailed list Right, I like that idea. This is craig. Um, because I was just looking at the the issue and and you know, we talked about the the moment ago the kind of policy the principle that each company except for the big cloud companies That has non open source projects only gets One entry sort of their flagship Um, I'm trying to understand that principle and I kind of like the idea that if we're starting to talk about, you know, multiple category entries We also have the possibility of Having multiple product entries You know, for example, the company I work for jfrog has a technology called x-ray which Helps do the security and license management for docker images and so Would seem to belong in the security and compliance category But it isn't open source and we're not aws google or microsoft. So I like the idea of being able to have multiple entries in multiple categories, even if it isn't the same product Yeah, and again, I think you can see our Uh, okay. So, I mean the alternative subcategories is not um Is not a crazy way of going about it. I mean, I think Uh, one of the initial challenges on is just Um, how to fill in for the 580 Uh, projects and products we have now Um, but of course we could start small So, hi, this is jerry Jennings. I have raised a similar issue on the mailing list um, is there any reason If we're just going to show the primary subcategory on the landscape not to allow Multiple alternate subcategories that people could filter down because there are some products that have multiple uses And it just seems reasonable that you want to be able to search for those alternate uses as well Well, I'm definitely assuming it would be a list So it would be alternative subcategories and then a comma-sempirated list of All the ones that the project can also fit into Excellent Yeah, you know, um Quinton had made a proposal by email a few weeks ago About I think he called it facets And I I didn't I didn't totally get it. Um And I I owe him a response on it, but I I'm I'm wondering whether this alternative Yeah, he says that the themes is what he called it to talk about security or high performance or large-scale ease of use Um, and and the challenge on all of these is that To kind of make that work. You'd really like to Um update metadata for all 580 projects at once which which becomes pretty hard Where the alternative subcategories has a a nice advantage that you can do it incrementally. I will point out how Yeah, please. I am with our choice of spgs from a year ago that Being able to zoom up to a hundred percent or more Up to 400 percent Tell you on the right side Um That that uh hall does work naturally is uh, it's pretty neat and the one other feature. I'm not sure folks saw but The text underneath the title Where it says the cloud native landscape ping pdf And if you click uh ping You can see that we're uh, no just past that tower Not that one They're the second thing Keep going Yeah, uh, you can see that we're statically rendering The ping and a pdf here that, um It takes a second to load but, um Uh to make this available in uh in the default format um Kind of a neat part of the app Okay, anything else, um Folks would uh Like to cover I'm um I'm expecting us to get a ton of uh More feedback I that I essentially I'm planning to to publish this updated version And then get more feedback on mailing list and and iterate on it And we do a couple other things we're trying to fix ahead of time, but um, I think we should start looking into the alternative subcategories and see if that if that works and is is kind of feasible to lay out and and include So Question has there been any thought about um seo and the project? so For instance, I know people are concerned about the categories If you're doing a search on say envoy if Someone's searching on load balancer or reverse proxy, whatever the seo for I guess the interactive landscape um Like triggering those Now we're talking about secondary uh categories, but primary categories with the with the project So rseo is actually decent already in that the default view we're um using google site maps to um include uh just a single um a single page for Every project on here And so I believe it's the case that um the change that we're talking about isn't actually going to impact the The seo too much Um In that because the pages that we're actually telling google and the other search engines we want to We want them to look at is is just the default view with just the one project highlighted um Whether google winds up taking a bunch of other ones as well as is I guess kind of an interesting question uh interestingly Already on google. We're one of the top sources for svgs For almost all of our projects where the effort involved in actually trying to get correct official svgs for everything has been Pretty enormous, but I feel like it's paying off so This is jerry jennings again. I have uh two things I wanted to note one is that michael and I have been working on um taking a closer look at the projects that are related to security um and trying to find a sensible grouping for those in the hopes that we might be able to Have a sub map the way that we do for serverless that's focused on security And we're we've been making good progress on that we raised that we were going to do that work in the mailing list And we've met a few times and hopefully in the next few weeks we'll have something that we can bring back and show to the group um and related to that I am on the What is been known as the safe working group that might become the security working group? for cncf and that group is also very interested in This work and had planned separately to look at the landscape as it relates to security and so they have asked us to present some Detail on on what we've been working on there. So that will happen in the next few weeks as well Which I assume is also of interest to this group Yeah Anything thanks for the update anything else folks would like to discuss today Dan this is ginger um other than adding new sandbox Companies and things what's your schedule for updates to the landscape? Do you have a set schedule like every quarter or how'd that go? So we had been creating a new static landscape every month But we put it on hold for the last two months as we were making these major changes But um once we publish it it's generally getting updated every couple days Oh, um, but because there's There's somebody the way it works is you just open a pull request when something's out of date or Incorrected or you want to add a project and I review it and if it clearly fits into one of the existing categories and Your you know your pull request builds then I'll go ahead and and accept it And with this new interactive with the new dynamically generated static pages Will then instantly have new PDFs and things of the landscape And so for um like kubekan, seattle. Did these get printed or do they just stay? dynamic on online They do so it's not just for kubekan, but cncf hosts a bunch of gets a booth at a bunch of conferences so Like red hat summit and the cloud conferences and we're going to hong joe For the aubaba cloud conference next week And so we generally do a printout where we have the cloud native trail map on the front side and then this landscape on the back And whenever we do that we'll just be printing out whatever the You know latest version as a week or two before the conference Okay, great. Thanks Sure. Is there a specific naturally to change that you're looking for or just you would like to get that thought of it being a bigger Not just streaming No, no, no not at all. I was just uh interested in the overall process at all Yeah, so I mean until literally until this month the process was that um the linux foundation's graphic designer alex Would manually have to relay everything out for each version And you know when we do category changes and stuff it was actually pretty involved So I do want to say again how cool I think it is to have this thing be automatically generated Yes, definitely Thanks, Dan. What else want to speak up? This is craig again just about the notion of having more than one product You know in different categories Even if it's not open source I'm trying to understand the principle I understand part of the reasoning is probably around the sort of consumability and navigability and busyness of the landscape But you know, for example, jfrog has two products in two separate categories neither of which is Categorized as open source. So the question is how do we You know get our products properly represented in the landscape Yeah, and unfortunately, um, we just made this decision about a year and a half ago Um, and it's it's documented here under under new entries that if we allowed every smaller company to List all of its products that uh, the We would easily have more than a thousand or a couple thousand Items on here and it just would would become infeasible and so, um, I do appreciate that it's it's Unhelpful for jfrog. So, I mean, I I think my current Suggestion to you is to look at this alternative categories thing as being the best the best solution for it um, so that you know, that was the original policy and then Uh, you know, we have these cloud companies in particular come along and say, hey, you know, we're you know, 100 times bigger than most startups So it just it's it's not correct to just say that we only have we're only in one space um But I admittedly it's it's it's an imperfect balance. Yeah, it does seem um Imperfect I'll I'll do some thinking and see if I can come up. Yeah, I I think the alternative categories is a route Uh to getting the right information to people Maybe there are other things we can do collectively to think about that. I'll See if I can come up with a proposal to make to the group Great, okay. Well, let's talk there. Um Thanks everyone for uh participating and um, I will speak to you on the mailing list and uh in person again in a month right now