 Welcome to the Dr. Gundry podcast. Today we're speaking with a biologist who is proving plants are intelligent, and this is Dr. Monica Gagliano. She's got a new book, Thus Spoke the Plant, and I happen to have an advanced copy here, and it'll be available in November. So, November 13th, as a matter of fact. So, hello, Monica. Hello. And welcome to the podcast. Thank you for having me. So, Thus Spoke the Plant. Now, you call this book a phytobiography, meaning, I think, as you explained it, that you wrote it collaboratively with the plants you study. Now, before we lose everybody and they turn the off switch, tell me what that process is like. Well, it's not very simple. It's not that simple to explain because it's about experiencing the plants. So, to explain it to someone without the person having had the experience themselves or recognizing the experience, it's difficult. The words don't really serve very well at this purpose, but I think I suspect that many people has had the experience that I had. Many are actually well aware of it, and many people maybe don't realize that it was that kind of a close encounter. And what I'm talking about is the kind of experience that one had when, for example, you go to the woods and you just sit quietly and you're just there. And then you feel you're not there alone because you're not. And in that sense, you are already in a relationship and in a collaboration in that moment with whoever is around. And I'm not just talking about the animals that are, for example, in the woods, but the plants, the trees, anything that is there, under and above the ground. So, in that sense, my process was of course within the context of science, or it became in the context of science. But it's a process that I think, or it's a skill that I think all humans have, and maybe it's possible that our kind of techno-scientific modern society has allowed us to forget because we spend less and less time in nature, in direct contact with nature, and definitely less time in the wild. So nature that is not our balcony with the little geranium or the little veggie patch in the garden, but actually forest and wild environments. And so I'm hoping that one aspect of the book will talk to that part of us that wants to know what it feels like to be in nature again. Very good. So you wanted to bring a scientific examination, as best you could, to the intelligence of plants. And you have a lot of experience, as I read in the book, working with shamans and indigenous elders from really communities around the world. Were they instrumental in opening your eyes to this unseen world, or a world that we don't perceive well? Well, I guess with anything right, we always need someone to show us the way at the beginning. So I would say they were instrumental because they helped me to approach without being totally freaked out, which I think is normal. And that's why I know that this book would probably freak out some people. And all I'm asking is for them to allow it. You don't have to like it, but just allow it and see how you go by the end of it. And then see how you go in your own life once you actually engage with some of the ideas for yourself in whichever way works for you. And so I guess, yeah, the people that I encountered, but, you know, not necessarily only the indigenous people, also some amazing people that I've encountered in my own closed sphere of friends and in my own environment. They all have been instrumental, including those one that have been like, no, you're totally loopy. You're totally crazy. Those ones actually were very instrumental because I found over the course of the years that when people give it becomes very stubborn and very against something often not necessarily in a logical way. Like they don't actually have a logical way to say why they're so against is a very emotional reactive response. And that kind of tells me that there is something to explore. And so those people are very grateful to them because they encourage me to like, OK, you're on to something here. We don't have to call it anything in particular until we explore it properly and then see what you think for yourself. So that's how that's my approach. Very good. You know, one of my talks I give, I start with a quote from General George Patton from World War Two. And he said, if everybody is thinking the same, then somebody isn't thinking. Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, I think if the reader can allow themselves not to prejudge what you're going to say, I think it's a much better ride. So that's good. In your chapter focused on remembering knowledge, you talk about the process of remembering never being a private thing. What do you mean by that? Well, because of course in my scientific work I've been working on memory with the plants. And that like one of the one of the study that became famous because of the micro pollen article in the New York is the Mimosa. And of course Mimosa is also famous was famous before it's been always famous. You know, it's one of those plants that moves at our scale. So it kind of looked like an animal, although it's a plant. And but it's a good bridge is a good plan to bridge the two kingdoms at least in our minds to appreciate the plants actually do things and do behave. So Mimosa for me became an important model to study to explore or start to explore learning and of course memory as part of the learning process. And and then of course I started exploring within my own personal experience. What does it mean to remember what is really memory? How sure I am that memory is in the brain as the neuroscientist tell us, right? And how is it that sometimes we remember things that at least then I had plenty of these experiences and I know I'm not the only one. We remember things that are not necessarily memories from our own life. They are memory that looks like they are collective memory for from, you know, humanity or our culture. And so I started to suspect that maybe memory is not exclusively. It doesn't mean that it's not in the brain, but it's not exclusively just in the brain. And so I think a little bit more of the idea of the cloud storage that we use for our computers, information storage. And I think, well, how do we know that many memories not just in here, but is also out there. And in that case, then it really is just a matter. We don't even have to make the effort to remember everything in the sense of like, put it, push it all in there. But actually it's a matter of knowing how to access the files, access the information in this informational field that is available to anyone. And so in that case as well, knowledge is never lost because knowledge is available to anyone who is interested in accessing knowledge. Well, you and I are both researchers and we have to always remember that the definition of research is to re-search, look again. Because the knowledge is always there. We're just the people who try to re-access that. In fact, something you just mentioned, we actually share a parallel. I'm a heart transplant surgeon. And it's very true that we have a number of heart transplant patients who we transplant the heart, but they have new memories that are actually are from the donor. And some of them are actually striking. I remember one of my patients who was really quite a vegetarian became obsessed with hamburgers after the transplant. And we've been lucky enough to have some of the families meet. And it turns out that this particular young man was just kind of a hamburger addict. And those memories were transplanted into this person. Now, we didn't transplant the brain. So there's a lot of information of what are called dendritic cells, which are neurons or lymphocytes that go along with the organ. And they actually do populate the new person. And we often call transplant patients puzzle people because they're actually collections of different cells, not just the organ. And so they become chimeric. And so you're right. So memories are not necessarily stored in the brain like we think. And I personally think that a lot of our memory system is actually built into our microbiome. And I think we learn a huge amount from the microbiome. And hopefully we'll get into that as we go along. Yeah. Okay. So you speak all over the world about your work. In a world that values the discoveries you make, that's not very interested in the methods you use. What motivates you? What keeps you going down this path? Well, I guess, you know, everyone knows that when you're doing something that you love, then it's not really a job. First of all, whether they pay you or not, they pay you is good. But if they don't pay you, you kind of have to do it anyway, because it's your passion. So I guess that's what motivates me primarily. And more specifically, I guess, I really love this place, this planet. And for me, whatever serves to bring a little bit more awareness, especially at this time. I mean, we have just seen the release of the IPCC from the panel for climate change, of course. And the situation doesn't look very rosy. Actually, it doesn't look rosy at all. And I just feel like there is, of course, it is serious. And there is, of course, the need to understand and to really appreciate that we are in trouble. But also, I know from the conservation biology and the conservation psychologists, I have learned recently that, you know, when we are faced with really big challenges, in whichever sphere, whether they are personal challenges or planetary, as we are at the moment. Well, there are a lot of negative emotions that come with that, of course. And one of them is guilt, shame, and feeling hopeless. And unfortunately, you know, for what I understand, when you are feeling those emotions, literally the body and the ability of the brain to create or to access those areas of creativity that we allow for innovative solution shuts down. So I am hoping that by talking about our amazing plants and how all interconnected we are, with not just, you know, plants, but everything, including the planets itself, we might find hope instead of hopelessness. And it's not to deny the problem, but actually to provide the opportunity to find the creative space and the solution and the openness and open-heartedness to say, like, okay, you know, we love this place, we are here, you know. And we are here with all of these other species, we don't want to lose anyone. No one, you know, no one needs to go. So can we do something about it now? And so I guess that is really the bigger driver for my research. And I contribute in whichever way I can in the smaller version of me, which is with the plants. So how have plants affected your personal health journey? My health? Yeah, your health. Amazing. Well, I was a bean vegetarian for over 10 years. And so, you know, my diet is primarily based on plants. And then in the last maybe three years, yeah, in the last three years, I just find myself becoming vegan, but not by choice really. It was more like, you know, I was born in Italy and I grew up on a diet that included a lot of wheat products and carbohydrates, as well as lots of dairies, the cheeses and the ice creams and, you know, the pizza is the quintessential symbol, you know, you've got the wheat with the cheese on top. And somehow I just started to notice, I don't even know why it happened or how it happened, but my body just was not interested in those kind of foods anymore. So I just started to notice my body not really going for those. And I realized I haven't eaten cheese for ages or I haven't eaten bread for ages. And then when people started inviting me for dinner and I'm like, well, I'm kind of not eating this and that at the moment. And then I realized actually it's easier if I say I'm vegan and I also don't eat any wheat products. And so this is where I'm at at the moment. I feel amazing. Like the moment I removed the wheat products, especially in the dairies, but especially the wheat, I really noticed the body responding in a different way, especially in terms of joints. And I always had like very stuck hips even doing yoga for years. And it's like, you know, I was always one of those kids that could never do the split. And not that I can do the split now, absolutely. But I can see that my hips are moving differently and there is more flexibility and more openness in the actual joints. So yeah, so I'm very good at listening to what my body is asking for. And even when I turn vegetarian, I always said, if my body asks for a steak, I will have the steak. Simply my body hasn't asked for the steak, so I haven't had one. Well, so if plants are intelligent creatures, how do you feel about killing a stalk of broccoli to eat it? Well, first of all, I think the approach to food is being so skewed over the years and the decades and centuries that I don't really, you know, I don't really understand why we're actually having such a problem with the consumption of. I think that the problem is not what we're consuming as such. Of course, depending on your health, you can consume certain things and no other. But in general, I don't think the problem is about the human being consuming another being, but it's more out. And the problem that I have with our modern way of approaching food is the mass production that doesn't have any respect or any honouring for the fact that this is life. And that's where there is an issue. So I don't have a problem going to my veggie garden and taking the tomato or the broccoli once they're grown. And I'm really excited. Like when I go to my garden, I'm really excited. And of course, it's one of those things that when I take it back into the house and I put it on the plate, for about half an hour, I'm like, aren't they the best tomatoes? Under the best broccoli? And I had to shout, you know, like, look at this, you know. I even taken a picture of my cabbage coming out. Like I had this beautiful, amazing cabbage, you know, coming out of my veggie patch one last year, I think. And I sent pictures to people. I was like, oh my cabbage! This is my baby. Exactly. So I think the question is about that relationship. And you know, again, our society, at least in the West, has totally removed cut-off people from relating with their food. So we're kind of ingesting just because we are told that we need to ingest. Even there, I fast every year for at least 10 days and sometimes I do longer cleanses. And when you fast, you really realize that your body doesn't necessarily eat as much as we eat. Your body doesn't necessarily eat everything that we eat. And in fact, when you are fasting, you can also see the role of your mind in that context. And now you're eating sometimes when you're not hungry. And he's like, why are you eating if you're not hungry? If the body is okay and he doesn't need extra fuel, why are you throwing it in there just because you're told so? And so I think that the cleansing that I do every year has been helping me to not only obviously cleanse the physical guts and remove some of the rubbish from the year, but really cleanse the mind. And I don't need to subscribe to these things. I don't need to eat just because I'm told so. I don't need to eat because it's 12 o'clock and this is lunchtime. And so in fact, I'm really flexible with my eating in the sense that I eat more or less regularly in the sense that my body seems to always feel like, I need breakfast and then about three or four in the afternoon he needs a kind of between lunch and dinner. And that's pretty much what my body is requiring and that's what I do. But I think that the question is about the relationship with food rather than really whether I'm killing the broccoli or not. Great. So talking about wheat, that's a nice segue. As you know, I'm very interested in plant lectins as one of their defense systems against being eaten. And obviously gluten is a lectin and there are also a number of other lectins in wheat, wheat, germ, and gluten. What's your thoughts on lectins as a plant defense system? Do you think they're pretty smart in making those? Well, you know, why not? Why should it be not smart to make those things that actually deter others from eating them? That's at the end is the ultimate goal. You want to make sure that you don't get eaten at this before you reproduce. Then it kind of doesn't matter so much. And so that and other defenses the plants use in other ways as well, like chemical, but also in terms of colors and all sorts of ways for plants to deter their consumption until they're happy to be consumed. Because of course, as you know well, once the fruit is mature, the plant really wants you to take it. That's exactly right. And so, you know, they use all sorts of tricks as we know, you know, when the mangoes are ready, you can smell them, you can see them through the leaves, and you can't wait to get your hands on one of those. So I think, again, it's a matter of relating and understanding when is the time for things. So, you know, the timing of the relationship is everything. And I guess, and I know that you have spoken about this as well, I guess, again, we are so disconnected by the time of things. It's like, why are you eating things that are out of season? That's not when the plant is producing the best, the juiciest tomato. So why are you eating it when it's not time for tomatoes? And of course, when you eat them out of season, whether you want to realize that or not, whether you like to think of that or not, you are eating something that is being made to turn red and look like it's mature. But it's got nothing to do with the tomato, the tomato that is healthy and is juicy and it's going to give you all the goodness that is meant to give you, as well as perhaps help the plant release some seeds here and there. Yeah, so a lot of my research, actually, early on was in really how plants control animal behavior for their benefit. And there are many of us who believe that farmers don't grow corn, that corn grows farmers. You know, corn has taken over the United States, for instance. I mean, corn controls the United States, so it's kind of odd that a plant is actually driving so much of our behavior in the United States. Did you find, particularly I was interested in your experience in the Amazon, it would appear that the plant compounds that you were ingesting were certainly altering your thought processes, your behavior. Is that a natural part of how you think plants communicate to animals, control animals? Well, as like returning briefly to wheat, as you know well, and I think again, you mentioned it in your book, it's really addictive because it's connected to the opiate system. So whether you think of a plant that is altering your mind in terms of psychedelics, which is kind of an extreme example of it, or whether you're thinking of, well, every time you ingest that slice of bread or you have that sandwich, well, you are altering your mind as well. And I mean, just think about when you're eating anything, whatever food you put in, whatever plant material you put in, you have either this sense of satisfaction or the enjoyment of it. Those are all emotional responses that the brain is involved in, the body as a whole is involved in. Some plants without necessarily going into the extremes of psychedelics and some plants are really strong purgatives. You might eat them and your stomach is like, okay, thank you very much, but now we have to evacuate. And so I think that food in general or whatever plants we ingest as food as well as medicine, there is no difference, food is medicine and everything that we take in is going to alter our mind and our body. Yeah, it's very true. One of the things I try to talk about to convince people how intelligent plants are and what great chemists are is they obviously use photosynthesis. And you talk about they harvest the sun's energy, they harvest the photons. So there is some suggestion, particularly from Sawyer Jay, that we can harvest photons, but why didn't we go the route of photosynthesis? Why are we so stupid? Well, I wouldn't say that we are stupid because we come for the synthesis. That's not fair. I think that, you know, and that's a really important point because I think nature does things in many ways. And that is the power of nature. And this is what we are missing and we are not appreciating. It's like diversity and variation are the key for a very healthy environment in general, whether it's the in-words environment, outer-words environment, whether it's the cities, whether it's nature as a forest or the coral reefs. So what we've been doing, this is where we are not being very smart in the fact that we have created an artificial system like our agricultural system, which is produced in monoculture. That is the most stupid thing that we could do because that's not how nature works. If you look anywhere and you want to see a smart system and an efficient system, you see that it's all based on highly variable and diverse systems. So for us to go monoculture, and we are doing this as well in terms of the way in which we think in our society, right? So we are creating this monoculture of thinking and so as soon as something deviates from those ways of thinking and seeing, we need to cut it down because it's a weed. And this is absolutely absurd because it's literally against nature. It's like nature thrives on diversity. Without diversity, we are so susceptible to disease and we see that in monocultures as well of any kind. So the strength is in the diversity. The thriving is in the diversity. And we need to re-establish diversity, both of cultures, thinking, languages, diversity in terms of natural diversity. Wherever we have suppressed and reduced, we need to expand and create this diversity or allow for this diversity to return. That's going to be the only strength. And in fact, you know, I think that a lot of the issues that we are facing as a society right now really boils down to that. We don't like diversity. We think that diversity is something that we need to suppress and in fact it's like it's only when we have a diversity of ideas that we can maybe find solutions. It's only when we have diversity of, you know, in a field when you have a veggie garden with a diversity of plants, that's when you got a lot of nice stuff happening and that also returns in a way to the concept, for example, in the U.S. with the Native American idea of the three sisters. They didn't plant just a field of corn like we're doing now. They had another two plants. And the reason why they had these other two plants and possibly even more is because these plants are helping each other. And so in that they are actually supporting. So it's not that you're losing space for your corn. You're actually going to get much more, much healthier corn ever. So we are not understanding the system very well. So I take it you'd be a fan of books like The Hidden Life of Trees or The Secret Life of Trees of these... Well... The ecosystem of a forest, how one plant can support another. Yeah. Okay. So... I just need to clarify that work is actually not from the German Forester. The work is from the professor Susan Seymard in Canada. And she has spent all her career in developing that research. And I think what The Secret Life of Trees did, which is good in a way, is he has delivered this knowledge to the general audience. But it should be a knowledge that the hard work was not done by him, but it's from someone else. So, yeah. Yeah. Got you. So, plants think, maybe not in the way we think, do you have any feeling on what... Who has more intelligence? Plants or animals? Or is that a moot point? It's a moot point. It's a moot point in the sense that, again, first of all, we don't really know what we mean when we talk about intelligence. It's this loaded term that is supposed to signify something but we don't really know. And second is like, I think, again, nature doesn't operate on comparison. This is a very human thing to do. And because primarily it's because we are always expecting or thinking that we are at the top of this pyramid and we are the golden standard and everything below us. And so we look and we judge down to others. And so then the concept of thinking that maybe someone is better or worse makes sense. But for what I understand in nature, the way in which nature is operating is constructed as a system. Every single part of the system is necessary. So every single part of the system needs to be exactly what it is to make it perfect. And it is like that. And then we try to fit it in a different picture and that's when it breaks down. And now that we are bad, it's just that we are... And again, now the system really works. Yeah. My next book is on the longevity paradox and it's about us as a system. And one of the things that impresses me, plants, obviously some plants have lived far longer than we can ever imagine. I was in Sicily three weeks ago looking at 120-year-old vines on Mount Etna and they're in perfect shape and they're still producing fruit. And, you know, 120-year-old human is possible, but they're not exactly in great shape or producing fruit. So are there any... Anything we can learn from plants and how, you know, we can live healthier, longer lives? Is there any takeaway from your research? Well, specifically my research, no, but I can give my personal opinion because it's just an opinion. I think I feel that, you know, our longevity at this stage has been extended artificially in a way and often, you know, we are all there, like we have the number of years but we are now really having a really good quality of life. Like you said, the vine is still healthy and it's still producing fruits. But when you're not healthy and producing fruit, you should be cut off. I'm not advocating that. But what I'm saying is that maybe we need to reach the later part of our lifespan a little bit more gracefully and then it can only be done if you're graceful before. And I know you as a medical doctor would know even better that people abuse themselves all their lives and then they get when they're old and when then the body cannot do it anymore because of the abuse that has been from the past and they're expecting a doctor to fix them and he's like, well, how about we make the doctors redundant in the sense that will be the ultimate wish. We don't need doctors because we have been looking after ourselves so well that there is no need to be sick when you're old. You can just be healthy and then the body, I believe the body has a really great intelligence of fixing everything. I mean, do you know how many things could grow wrong any moment, any minute, any second and they don't really, it's quite amazing that the body actually keeps it all together. But then I have to confess that I'm also biased because I'm never sick so I don't really know what it really means to be sick and so I feel for the people that find themselves in those conditions but I also know that often people as more generalizing, often people is kind of not looking after themselves properly and then they find themselves in those conditions so it's a balance again between the two. Well, that's obviously why I changed my career path because I fixed people's hearts who were broken but I found that it's much better to teach people how to eat so that they never get into that condition so you're exactly right. So everyone has naysayers and what do you tell people who don't believe your research that plants aren't intelligent, plants don't talk to you, they don't think? What do you say? Pretty simple, I don't need your beliefs. I don't need anybody's beliefs, nobody has to believe anyone. All I do is using a method which is the scientific methods. There are many other methods to explore the world. This is the one that I use because I've been trained to use it but also because it works for me in my mind and how I work. So I use a scientific method and the scientific method talks with data so you don't have to believe me. You can explore and look at the data yourself and then we can discuss and if you really think that the data are wrong I'm open to change my mind and we do whatever and discuss whatever. The best... Well, it was, I think, William Blake that said the true method of knowledge is experiment. So if you are not happy with what I'm presenting especially within the academia well then do the experiment and show me wrong. I'm totally happy to change my mind. Good for you. I'm lucky you've been able to change my mind more times than maybe I would want to but that's the basis of research to prove yourself wrong to prove the hypothesis is wrong and if you can't prove it's wrong that's a wonderful thing. And then of course there is the other aspects of the personal experiences that one has as is exploring whichever method you're using including science and those one well those one are not for judgment because they're my personal experiences like how can you judge something that is my experience? You can judge what I might claim as the scientist then that is for critique. The rest is my life and you can take it or not it doesn't matter it's mine. And you're going to keep doing what you're doing no matter what. Exactly basically. Alright so that's great as part of our podcast I always answer one audience question before we sign off so give me a second here and stay on the line. So the audience question today is Rita asks is it okay to use almond milk and coffee? I know you said coconut milk is okay but what about vanilla flavored almond milk like the Calafia brand? Thanks for any advice. So I don't really have a problem with almond milk and coffee except you mentioned vanilla almond milk and unfortunately if you read the back of the label on any of the flavored almond milks like vanilla you'll notice that there's a lot of sugar in that and if you're going to use almond milk please use plain almond milk. If you want an almond flavor get yourself some sweet leaf stevia drops for example and put a drop of almond flavoring or get true almond extract and put a drop of almond extract. It's going to be much better for you in the long run. So many of these flavored almond milks or flavored coconut milks have so much added sugar that you don't need. So have the plain almond milk and then almond extract or stevia almond flavor and change it up. Okay, hope that's helps. All right, so Monica thank you so much folks. The book is coming out November 13th I think. Thus spoke the plant not the Zarathustra the plant and it's an interesting wild ride through her experience starting out as a marine biologist on the Great Barrier Reef and that reed is fascinating as well and now she's listening and exploring how plants learn and have a memory and accessing that memory from plants. So I think the takeaway should we all get out in the park and go out in the forest and feel what's going on. Certainly the Japanese believe that that's essential to... Absolutely, absolutely. We are nature so we should be part of nature. Okay, so for the apartment dweller here in Los Angeles who doesn't have a nearby park do you want a lot of plants in your house? Absolutely, just bring them in yourself, bring them in and then get yourself out when you can. Perfect, thanks so much for being on with us Monica take care and good luck with the book on the lawn. Thank you so much for every minute, thank you. Thanks a lot. So thank you again for joining us on the Dr. Gundry podcast Monica's books on sale November 13th. Monica where can the audience find you? Where can we get the book? Do you have a website? I do have a website but also I think it's available from all the major online stores, bookstores including the usual Amazon and all those. And also I guess it will be in the stores in the actual physical bookshop and I think maybe that will be even nicer because it will get you out out of the apartment walking and get into the bookshop and then back so you know, get it from the bookshop. No, I agree. Please support your local bookseller and that's a great idea walk through the part to the bookseller please and walk back. Alright, thanks again and good luck. Thank you. And this is Dr. Gundry from the Dr. Gundry podcast and remember I'm always looking out for you.