 Welcome back and thanks for staying with us here on the breakfast and plus TV Africa. Our next conversation is going to be, well once again on security issues, Nigerian who has been kidnapped with 30 million Naira ransom being demanded by his adopters. We're joined by Chukumar Okemwa, a public affairs analyst. Good morning and thank you for joining us. Good morning. It's Okemwa. Can you hear us? Okay. Really, we'll try to reconnect with Ms Okemwa. But this story, just to fill you in, so a pastor in a church, a deeper life church in Undostate, his name is Pastor Ogidinbi, you know, just finished a church service according to reports we've seen and his wife later reported to the police, you know, Mrs. Yinka Ogidinbi that her husband had been kidnapped. This occurred a few days ago and now they've contacted the family demanding 30 million Naira ransom and that the amount is non-negotiable. They must receive 30 million Naira or her husband and the pastor of this deeper life church in Undostate could not be released. It's just such a shame, the level, you know, that these terrorists and kidnappers are sending to really like we discussed, it seems crime just keeps going on the rise and it's not coming down. From secondary school students to pastors to travelers on the roads to where exactly are we safe, if kidnappers can go to a church and abduct a pastor and this is not the first time we're seeing reports of a pastor being abducted right from his own church. Well, it's, you know, like I always mentioned, you know, I personally don't like to put a tag on the person who has been kidnapped. So pastor, banker, engineer, lawyer, boss, driver, school student, you know, vice chancellor, whoever it is, it's a Nigerian. So it doesn't make it more shocking because it's a pastor, it doesn't make it more shocking because it's a school, it's a university student, it doesn't make it more shocking because it's a woman. You know, these are Nigerians and their lives, you know, should be safe in Nigeria. I also have seen that, you know, it feels, you know, like there is people who have taken advantage of the failure of security agencies and the lack of proper security architecture in Nigeria have taken advantage of that and have gone, you know, into the kidnap and business full-time. We no longer would, you know, only lean towards saying, you know, blaming headers or bandits for these atrocities and these acts. It feels now that there is just random persons, random criminals across the country in different states who are not bandits, who are not headers, who are not, you know, from anything linked to the Boko Haram audience. Just to do that. Yeah, just taking advantage of the security situation in the country and started kidnaping. I've been hearing reports about that, you know, I don't know how true this is, but this is a report I've been hearing that you go for a jog and then somebody just drags you in. And yet last night I was taking a walk with a friend and we're passing the walkway and we saw a cat parked on the road and we said, please, let's leave the walkway and come to the main road where everybody can see us. And that's because of the level of insecurity. You don't know if that guy is a kidnapper waiting to just swoop in and take you and put you in the boot. Or if he's just someone who wanted to take the night breeze and just came out to pack his can. So everybody's just not feeling safe in the country anymore. And it's just such a shame where we are, you know, when you talk about all the promises that the present administration has given, you know, when there's a kidnapped incident, when there's something they come out and say, this would be the last that would ever happen in the country. And a few minutes later you hear reports of another very terrible incident. Nigeria as a country has had years to develop to a level where these things would be harder to pull off and it would be easier to investigate and to catch and to rescue kidnapped victims. We've had years to develop CCTV cameras in every single corner of Nigeria. We are rich enough as a country to have that. We are rich enough as a country to have... Millions have been disbursed for that. Technology, science and technology are fully invested into our security system as a country. We've had years. We have zero excuse as to why it is so easy for a criminal to walk up, you know, in the streets of Nigeria, come into crime, go home and never be found. As far back as the Jonathan era administration, the millions were disbursed to Chinese companies, I remember, to, you know, purchase CCTV cameras and install them on highways. Where are they now? You know, you've been talking about the Jonathan era. I'm saying we've had years, you know, it could have been since 1999, it could have been since 2000, it could have been any time, could have been even earlier. We've had the time, we've had the resources, but we failed to do that. We've had the time also to ensure that every single penny that is budgeted for security and for our police force gets to the police force is properly utilized. And every single penny that is meant to be used to purchase arms, to purchase uniforms, to purchase vehicles for the police, to buy petrol, to floor their petrol stations, to ensure that they lack absolutely nothing to carry on their jobs a hundred percent gets to them. But we have continued to fail to ensure that, you know, these funds get to them for many, many years. I'm just going to quickly mention this for many, many years until date. We continue to ignore the fact that billions, you know, are budgeted, allocated, are released to the police force. Yet, you still have policemen on the streets begging for 209, 409. Talking about that, just this morning, I was having a conversation with someone how, you know, asking, have you ever seen, it's not even after you've ever seen, but like just take a look around. There are so many policemen who have been in the police force for years and all they can boast of is one single motorcycle. Yeah. So why would you, like, it's not justified for them to harass people. But just to say, I understand where they're coming from, that they're in a system that does not even take care of their welfare. So you can understand when they see a young boy driving a car, whether he got that from his fintech company, who that he just sold for billions to a foreign company or to whatever. You can understand where he's coming from when they begin to harass people. Like I mentioned, not justified, not justified, not justified in any way. My point is funds are allocated like we all know, as we see in the budget for the welfare of these people, who should be protecting us? But when those funds don't get to them, you begin to see situations like this. I mean, in a working society, the police should have done what they should to get Ms. Pashto-Oguningbe back to safety. But anyway, we have our guest, Mr. Chukuma Okinwa, public affairs analyst now joins us again. Thank you very much for staying with us, Mr. Okinwa. Yeah, good morning. Thank you so much. All right, what's your assessment of the situation, the abduction of the deeper life pastor in Undostate, Pashto-Oguningbe? It's really very unfortunate that the issue of kidnaping in Nigeria is becoming unbearable by the day. It's now in an industry, and according to New York Times, New York Times described that as Nigeria's kidnap for ransom industry. And this industry is estimated that between 2011 to 2020, 13 million pounds have already been paid as ransom. So we see like two strategies that the kidnapers, the news, is that they are going for high profile persons, high target associated with great organizations, or they are going for students in their numbers. And from their student reviews from New York Times, that when they go for group of students, like at the end of the day, they run some about $1,000, is paid for by past students. So it's something that is really very painful, and I'm not releasing the body language of the government suggesting for the political will to tackle this menace. All right, now talking about Pashto-Oguningbe, it's a sad situation, and of course, the average Nigerian doesn't have $30 million anywhere to pay ransom or anything. What would you expect to be the Nigerian government's response to ending kidnap in Nigeria? The response has not been so impressive because we see the government speaking hostages. There have been several cases of kidnap where it's not even clear if the government paid ransom or not. But there is great difficulty also when a Christian is involved, in a case like this, we see it go the other way, like in the case of that kidnap, which at the end of the day, let me ask them to come, all others were released. So it's always been seen in, and also like the evangelists, the female evangelists of redeeming that was kidnapped, at the end of the day, she was found dead. So we see like in some cases, it could be for business, and in some cases, it could be oppression. So but I am not satisfied with the body language of the government. It doesn't in any way suggest the government is trying to calm down on this because it's important that when kidnapers are caught, why will someone at the end of the day be released without the presence of the dance? If you do the crime, you do the time. But what I'm asking is what would you suggest to be the Nigerian government's response? Because it's obviously a national challenge. What we expect to be the Nigerian government's response, first, the government needs to, through the body language, demonstrate strong disapproval for things like this. So I would expect that the Nigerian government should deploy the two ways of the law when conflicts are coming, conflicts are caught. It shouldn't be a situation like, you are out of the case when a kingpin was accosted by police officers and the problem that ensued between those officers and the military officers. You understand, there were killings of police officers who tried to intervene in a case of a kingpin that is known to do kidnap as a business. So I expect that the government should be able to check the issue of banditry, terrorism, especially as it has to do with proliferation of arms. The rate at which arms are proliferating and likely going on across the nation is really terrific. And the government must, as a matter of fact, do something. All right, Mr Okinwa, when the government began to rule out the national identity number in, they mentioned that it would help in stopping crime because the government have the data of everybody and they can track and trace. Why is this not being done? Because this man was kidnapped on Monday. It's Friday now. Why is the government not using tools that they initiate and roll out to track crime and criminality? Okay, first is that of course the NIN process has not been completed. So I can tell you that with statistics on grant, that it's just nearly 60 million persons that have been captured on that database. What that suggests is you still have a lot of unidentified numbers within the Nigerian states. But we have a unique country before us because it's just like upbringing in school without registers. How would that allow people to get symptoms, get BVN and all the rest without the basic one, the NIN number which identifies the person as a citizen? Is it a mistake we've made as a nation and we now have to deal with it? All right, and we're also obviously going to talk about the fate of Mr Okinwa where over time, he was mentioned about other countries that have placed an outright ban on payment of ransom. Do you think that might be the approach the Nigerian government should take in order to help us completely read the country of kidnappers? Well, when we talk about addressing the issue of kidnapping, of course the current and state approach is advised, especially when you consider the fact that if nothing is done in terms of payment of ransom, the persons actually involved could be killed. And when their lives are lost, whose crime was the fact that they are only citizens of Nigeria? I mean, there wouldn't be any rationale, they wouldn't stay alive to enjoy the lessons probably that we plant as a citizen by placing a ban on the kidnapping. I think security in Nigeria has always been reactive rather than proactive. The true measure of security is intelligence management. It does appear there is a complete breakdown in intelligence in our nation. I mean, how can kidnappers ban these live amongst us or place relief in some cases, cut away with hundreds of students and I mean there's no trace. That really tells you we have a strong challenge in our hands. So it's an indictment on the intelligence management of the nation and hence I suggest governments should be more proactive in intelligence management and not reactive. So what can the family do right now? Because, you know, like Osaragi earlier mentioned, we really doubt the possibility of the family being able to raise 30 million naira, you know, as soon as possible to get their husband and father out. So what can they do now? It is the responsibility of the responsible government to secure the lives of the citizens. As a matter of fact, this issue now is an indictment of the government. The government has failed this family. The government has failed this citizen who probably is their taxpayer and the responsibility, the basic responsibility of government is to ensure the security of lives of the citizens as well as weapon. So in a case like this where the welfare of the family is challenged, where the security of an individual is challenged, is to be the headache of the government. Now we stand in a case like this where basically we don't see government waning in all of the cases. The government is choosing when it comes to the cases, it has interest in it. I would have maybe, like what the family could possibly do since the government have shown that the government don't have all of the things, from basic, like we're still talking about Aliyaki's, even the Chippewa Gears now all have done the release. So I think the families most, as a matter of identity security agents, advise that people should take security into their hands. At this point, you have to be security conscious. You have to do the fact you have to do otherwise the life of the person cannot be lost. But I still maintain the government should see that as a matter of responsibility. In what ways do you think Nigerians can be safer, can develop better security consciousness in the times that we currently are? Particularly now, those of them that have children in school, all across, because the issue of this security in schools now is spread in white, it's not just a nothing issue. So if the school that your child attends, it's very far away from the city, I mean, and the school is nowhere secured with presence of security, I mean, at this particular point, such schools should either go on holiday, compulsory, definite holidays, or parents should be wise enough to withdraw their kids from that school. Because I believe you have to be alive first for you to get that education. I mean, especially like in different parts of the, as we speak now, Niger, a great part of Niger, is under the control of boundaries. And I mean, we can just allow this happen or continue in this way. So I think as they have to do with school systems, schools should first reject their security architecture. Let's work with the security agencies and show you have their phone numbers and where they're actually at, please call. Oh, well, Mr. Okanwa, it's not just students that have been kidnapped, you know, Nigerians in general, dealing with a kidnapped pandemic, as we can describe it as that. But thank you anyway for joining us this morning. How many will stay, thanks for your time. Yeah, thank you. Good morning. It's now time to talk sports. Wally Scott will be joining us next to share a little bit of sports updates. And of course, I have a quick, beautiful, interesting conversation here on the breakfast. Good morning.