 Good morning or good afternoon depending on where you are welcome to think tech Hawaii Welcome to rule of law in the new abnormal and welcome to today's discussion about race past Learning and education. Where are we? What's missing? Where do we need to go and? Wherever else these four amazing people choose to take us You have St. Davis retired law professor from the University of Toledo School of Law now teaching online with University of Illinois Chicago School of law professor of Bernadio Randall Retired professor from the University of Dayton School of Law and one of the country's leading experts one of the international leading experts on race and the law for many years Jeff Fortnoy from Honolulu one of our leading First Amendment lawyers a partner in the Cade shutty firm and Jim Alfini former dean of Northern Illinois and southern Texas schools of law and professor at both Constitutional law professor and ethics law professor Welcome all of you. Yeah, I'm gonna follow my Mothers Guideline and do ladies first here and also because professor Randall is our resident expert in this area Out of all the things going on relating to critical race theory right now, professor What strikes you as what is most deserving of attention? for me the part the issue is is that the critical race theory is being used like Super predators was used by the Clintons like welfare queen was used by Reagan as a cover for Allowing people to Be racist without using the words Black Hispanic Asian Native American And to be racist And so the big problem that I'm having is that Over and over again, I'm on all these sites and people asking question. I'm like None of these states Have critical race theory in fake K through 12 Now there's all kinds of things people are Claiming is critical race theory, but it is not What they're really upset about these What they're using this for is a vehicle to not talk about accurate racial history and so And most of all these laws that have been passed it only one state even mentions the word critical race theory all the rest of them is about You can't talk about slavery and you can't talk about racism and you can't talk about diversity So there's a need for people to know what critical race theory is Which started off as a legal concept as a law school concept And there's a need to know that 99.99 percent of what they hear Going on is not really critical race theory Thanks, that's a great intro to start off Jim Jeff and I Don't know what critical race theory is I'm sorry Okay, no, I mean if you look at the words critical race theory it makes no sense as some kind of a philosophy or an Educational component I understand What people are trying to do in these various states But I really never figured out how critical race theory Got into the lexicon Well, it's a term of art So I have to say being a lawyer you understand that there's a lot of things that we use in language That have specific definitions, so you can't just say critical race theory you have to know what it means it's a term of art looking at how racism Has impacted How systems work and it started off it really started off with professor Dean Bale and Looking at the law How has the law? How does the how is the law structured? How is the law? Interpreted how is the law implied? applied in a way that either promotes or diminishes racism You would think that would be a part of all courses. It's not and Consequently critical race theory came about as a way to focus people Attention on that now it's spread to other disciplines to do the same thing. How does racism impact education Sociology that sort of thing does that help? I thought maybe because I think about this simplistically It simply meant you couldn't teach in school that white people ever did anything bad That's what That's essentially what it's being turned in well The opposition to critical race theory is that we don't want the critical race team theory teaches people That the the systems don't work Equitably based on race and we don't want you to teach that because White people have been in charge of systems and so implicitly you it feels like You're charging white people Specifically an individual white person specifically. Yeah, I think you're right. That's funny good It vernellia if I can add a footnote to what you I mean, Jeff vernellia is as very Accurately and well described critical race theory as it was developed largely in the law schools by legal scholars like Derek Bell and What what's happening now? I think is that? critical race theory is being mischaracterized and Exaggerated and basically is understood Conservative leaders are trying to get people to believe the critical race theory stands for anti-white and black supremacy And that and that and it really they're saying that pretty loud They're trying to get people Excited about this so that they'll stop things like the teaching of race in schools If we take it outside the schools, I really believe that this is a an organized I'm not gonna use the word because strategy on the part of people on the right to This credit Some of the policies that are are being adopted by major corporations and organizations Particularly diversity equity and inclusion policies. I've seen it myself Used to attempt to forestall the adoption of DEI policies. Oh Sure, but can I just say it's like the classic American talk about something without talking about it Because flipping it in terms of it being something to support quote black supremacy Really what it's about is supporting white supremacy, but flipping the conversation to be about the other To really reinforce white supremacy. That's that's the game and it's as old game is dirt in this country All right, so, you know, so you got to understand that when everybody's running this stuff It's not about the stuff. It's about the white supremacy or this sense of Fear which is very bizarre in a way, but there it is of white people of being quote-unquote replaced I mean, there'll be other theories you hear the replacement theory ever people use those kind of words But in kind of couched ways, but sort of you know, and it's like Really really I mean and then another thing is of course You have people personalizing the history that well, like I wasn't a slave owner. Therefore, I am immune for any kind of Part of that history, you know, and you know, I'm coming from it as an international law guys that correct me if I'm wrong folks But far as I know The United States state has been around at least in 1776 So whoever was the actor in the state allowing this that or the other to happen that state has been continuous for all that period and that state actually embraced encouraged all kinds of suppression with you know, we can talk about the future slave act we can talk about the I can I can send you cases Where you have judges in the anti-bellum period talking about the natural place of blacks is in an inferior position Injudicial opinions, okay, you know as part of their analysis, I can tell you Yeah, I do think it's being used as a cover for Targeting for channeling people's fear and anger. I absolutely did because we're in With all the dis and misinformation around We're in a period where people just we've always been in a period of throw out some code words Define the code words to mean something that will appeal to your group your base and Then you don't and then they will then rally around without actually learning what it is And we'll call you a wire like so I can't tell you how many times I have Defined its critical race theory for people giving people a link to small stuff They can read and then be told don't be spreading my democratic lies Which I'm like you you don't know me at all because you would know You know, you know, there's there's there's a and this is a important issue, but there's a bigger Overriding issue right now. It's critical race theory. The overriding issue is the legislature telling teachers What they can and can't teach and then criminalizing Right now it's right now. It's critical race theory next week. It could be anti-semitism The week after that it could be whatever that's the outrageous thing that's occurring in these eight states Yes, it's critical race theory. That's generating what they're doing. But what they're doing is politicians are telling teachers Not only what they can teach and can't teach which is Hitler's Germany, but also criminalizing it, right? Absolutely textbook Authoritarianism and the iron is of course is it's done by the people who are asserting the concepts of freedom, right and freedom And again, it's a one more of these little flips one more of these little flips Authoritarianism is a new factor, but the fact is that No, I hate excuse me because I hate when other people do that and I apologize I hate it when some body says the back is just say what you gotta say the reality It's as long as I can remember in my lifetime Texas has dictated what teachers can teach They dictated them to me as a child the the textbooks the controls the Criminalization and they're being more overt about it But it has never been a case of where teachers get to teach what they want without politicians telling them what to teach That's what the board of education do They control what can be taught in the school and that control can be racist Which it was in my life in Texas. Do you think they taught me about slavery? Do you think about Jim Crow about the 1790 act that said that only white people could immigrate into this country? No, none of that was in any of the text but they didn't teach me about that How the United States supported the overthrow of the Kingdom of the Constitutional Monarch of Hawaii and how the legislature Found that to be illegal and we just ignored it. No, none of that was in my books They didn't teach me about the Chinese being excluded So this whole, you know, the thing is they're just being more overt and more explicit because they're Appealing outwardly to a base that they want to mobilize around racism and Jeff This is you know, it's they are using criminal criminality That's a different aspect and and and and and and yes, it could be extended to other areas as well but the issue of controlling what is Being taught about race and racism is not second No, but I want to be clear about this because I don't disagree with you that boards of education Have always determined what textbooks are being ordered Etc, but the move to make it political by having legislatures do it is new to me No, so it doesn't change it, but I'm just saying it's now gone from the board of education Which in some places are elected and some places are appointed And it varies right Hawaii has a statewide Board of Education where I grew up every little city in town had their own board of education but I don't think it's ever been centralized In the legislature of a state or not as much as it is now And so that's my only point. I hear you and I understand that that texas has been in the forefront of a textbook Control My thing is this is that That this is this isn't They aren't doing it could be done in other areas and it probably will be But this is really an attack on people of color in an accurate racial history Right. Great. I agree and and white people who want to know accurate racial history Right, but let me give you two examples just to throw things at everybody. Remember d-day. Okay We all remember d-day in every school that we ever Went to right and we all maybe saw the longest day which was a 1962 movie That with john wane and all the great stars of the day or maybe saving private ryan 1998 And all that and all that stuff going on at d-day Well, it hasn't till last year that I learned that they were black soldiers at d-day They were running the barrage balloons now And I was thinking why in all those movies and all that collective discussion of this great incredible event No one along the way by the way Let us know that there were actually black soldiers among all those soldiers. I think there were uh Asian-american soldiers who were there too in hispanic, but certainly black soldiers who were part of d-day Why what we why wasn't there any black soldiers in saving private ryan? Why weren't there any black soldiers in? The longest day, I mean that's the that's the part of the false consciousness thing that Is not just vehicleed by these legislatures But it feel killed in the in the collective culture To basically make people of color invisible just like At the university of virginia here where they're they used to have these walls to make the enslaved people Invisible to the people who are going to the university of virginia just like at monicello Uh jefferson structured his house so that you never saw the slaves. You understand it's the invisibility thing Just like segregation of neighborhoods. You never knew any black people or hispanic or Asian-americans people so they didn't exist in your conscious as a just like the segregated schools thing I mean it's all these structural things being put in place to make these people of color invisible And unfortunately for those who want to do that these people of color have been around since the beginning of this country And we're here and we know it and we know the history And we assert White supremacy it goes back to what you said earlier The whole problem is is is that if we want system and institutional changes White people got to know their own history We're right and and it's not enough for us to teach you because I'm in a lot of networks now where people are just saying oh, don't worry. We'll just teach our kids ourselves No, that is a solution No, it's a solution, you know and at law schools and the fact is is the critical race theory Has never really been accepted in law schools. Right there if truth be told, you know, how many Dean how many critical race theories do you know about in law schools? great Yeah, you're right But you know jim and jeff and me and you We were the generation that was going to solve it after brown remember that we were going to integrate and everybody was going to know each other And all this was all going to be worked out That was the idea of integration that was there and you know, there's some things that are definitely better than they were I'm not saying they weren't but we sit here today and we and we watch this not I'm sorry to say it like that because of this false consciousness that is advantageous to some folks that maintain For their own reasons and they will do it But if they are successful and they are being successful part well, we're a nation divided And they're being successful in the states and that if you are the problem we have I taught race and racism for 30 years and When I initially started I wanted to teach it as a critical race theory course I wanted to teach it as a critical race theory course. I did not I taught it two years as a critical race theory course and thought I can't teach this My students don't know it didn't matter what color they was what background they were They did not not have enough history Real history to do critical race Theory analysis of the law. Well, but but you know, I ended up having to teach them Just history with law with woven in now The problem becomes if we want changes in history if people are coming going through high school college without learning accurate racial history and they're going to be the leaders of the world They are not going to be receptive To changing systems. They don't think of races because they haven't been taught how that Has happened in our history you know, but But but but the but the educational system goes Way beyond that you look at all the surveys in the last 10 years People coming out of high school don't have a clue what the bill of rights are Forget about critical race theory. They can't they can't tell you no, I'm sorry, but it's true They can't tell you who the last five presidents were I mean, so the whole educational system as far as history and civics Is in shambles and this is part of it. I agree but you know, it's it's not only that I mean It's unbelievable what lack of education High school graduates are getting on On our country on history rightfully or wrongfully by the way, how is it the college students? Go through college because I got law students in my class And in fact, I had someone just one of the law students who took my class years ago Because I said what usually happened is by the end of my class the law students would say How did I get to law school and not know this? Great, I hear you How did you get to law school? I can understand came through 12 But I don't understand how colleges are not teaching it and I do not understand How law schools make it a specialized course Okay People who get through law school second and third year And if they don't take a race and racism in the law course, they don't learn it either Right, so it's just came through 12 Right, but professor randall. I'm 65, right? So how is it that at 65? I only found out john marshall Who has a huge statue in the supreme court of the united states was a slave owner I mean, I went to law school. I spent 40 years of my life doing this out of the other And it was only in the last year or two that I find out that john marshall was a slave owner In every one of my classes in law school. We talked about marshal decisions and this that and the other No professor In any class. I don't have to be a criminal racer. Just the ordinary con law professor Could mention by the way john marshall owned slave, you know, I mean we get you know, we get the justice tainy thing Right, you know and all that but on john marshall a lot of people look up to There's this Sort of vote you don't mention these things about I also know justice jackson, right? justice I have to learn this because I went to a thing at justice at the the center for jackson in In uh, western new york, you know in a letter to somebody he wrote you use the n word Okay, I mean he used an n word in a letter to him and something wasn't worth an n words No, right He's a man of his time No one knew this stuff until the particular expert john barrett on on justice jackson had found this and going through his paper Well, you know justice jackson now, you know on his what is this three-part theory of disruptor rather tough, you know But by the way, did you happen to know that he was using that kind of rag tag language too? That would add impact on me, you know, and then Finally, let me tell you justice glia He once told me I had to get over slavery a guy who can't get over the slave owners telling me I have to get over slavery I mean, you know, it's like come on. Is this real or you can have justice alito telling the representatives for uh blacks in michigan who were fighting the referendum When the the representative in the oral argument says I quote 90 of the black michiganers voted against the referendum And justice alito says well, they just don't know what they they may not know what's good for them And they start talking about the mismatch theory and all this stuff about one It's like like those black people don't have agency and this is a justice of the supreme court in the oral argument Or darin bell when he was a lawyer in brooklyn and having judges turn around in their seats because he was a black lawyer and they wouldn't they would listen to his arguments on behind on on behalf of his client With their back turned to them Oh, i'm sorry So but the question for me is we need to have a critical analysis of how race and racism impact systems And I don't know I spent 30 years I I I talked Race and racism in 30 years would still be teaching it if they hadn't canceled the course in my law school So it isn't how do we You know, we talk we can talk about what kt-12 is critical and all of that stuff, but we haven't managed to get It in law schools and I would really like to hear the dean's ideas about critical race theory are not just just accurate racial legal history in law schools And that's a great question professor. So in our last minute or so, how do we get out the truth about what has Divided us as a society in ways that can help people understand those divisions and get past them What's the direction we need to take? well I always got an idea stop dumbing down people and And you know the main thing is you fight back meaning you put out the accurate history You counter the folks who have extensive power Who try to put out the nonsense version of everything and you just keep doing that until they finally either give up or Flip into something else And if you don't fight back They will suck up everything But if you can keep out there pointing out things that this is nonsense. This is not true If you can help people get back back past their guilt, you know about the fact there was slavery I mean, I was shocked somebody recently. I was talking about my ancestor was owned by Uh, some of the Harrison family here and they look so guilty That sounds like an Thinking back to my public that sounds like an individual approach with individual people and I think we how do we change systems? How do we get? To How do we get law schools? To integrate racial history and all of their courses Well, good. Good. Good. Good luck folks because ben All you got to do is look at what goes on in germany and poland About their views about world war two and what happened to the jews. I'm sorry. That's only 50 years ago and uh Very few people's perceptions have changed as to what they think those two countries did or didn't do so It's a huge huge undertaking and I I frankly think you might change some people's views But let we go back to where we start on this show all the time 35 to 40 of this country still believes the election was stolen So good luck and I don't I think everything needs to be done, but I'm not as optimistic as you are And we're out of time for today Oh, sorry But neither was dean derrick bell optimistic in fact he he died seeing that The one step forward was always followed by two steps back Whether it was brown versus board of education or affirmative action or any of the other measures that were intended We need to go back and completely revisit How we come to understand Race cast and the divisions in the society That have been perpetuated and that are still fighting to perpetuate themselves. That's exactly what you folks have brought out today Thank you all for great insights. Thank you very bad and a lively conversation. Come back see us in two weeks We'll be back September 30th rejoin us And thank you all take care