 Hi everyone and welcome to the Addiction Recovery Channel or ARC. I am Ed Baker and I am your host producer. Thank you for joining us today. Today we're privileged. We're honored to have for our interview three distinguished guests all from north-central Vermont from the LaMoyle Valley. We have Daniel Franklin, the Executive Director of the North Central Vermont Recovery Center. Thank you Daniel. And we have Dawn and Greg Tatro, Mr. and Mrs. Tatro, are the founders of Jenna's Promise and Jenna's House also in the LaMoyle Valley, and we'll be hearing a lot about that today also. Thank you for being on the show. Thank you, Ed. I'd like to I'd like to begin the show by setting the context. We we should make no mistake about it. America faces a crisis in public health today. What's feeding into this crisis in a profound way is drug overdose fatalities. In 2018, there were over 68 and a half thousand people taken by drug overdose. 68 and a half thousand families. Countless communities devastated by drug overdose. When you look at opioids in particular, and this really is what is driving this unprecedented public health crisis. In 2018, there were over 47,000 deaths, more than two-thirds of the overall death count was due to opioid-related overdoses. Of that, 47,000, over 31,000 were due to illicitly manufactured fentanyl, the most potent opioid known to the pharmaceutical company. America is saturated with illicitly manufactured fentanyl. It has contaminated the heroin supply and it has also been introduced in counterfeit pharmaceutical opioids. Illicitly manufactured fentanyl is being smuggled into America by what's known as international crime organizations that are preying upon opioid addicted people in America. Vermont's response has and continues to be mighty. We should all be proud to be Vermonters. And I'd like to begin with that, Daniel. I'd like to begin with Vermont's response specific to the recovery center movement in Vermont. I'd like you to speak a little bit about the purpose of recovery centers in Vermont. Thank you, Ed. There are 12 recovery centers in Vermont and that is very special in this country. Recovery centers are at their core a safe space for individuals with substance use disorders and their loved ones, the safe welcoming substance-free spaces. Beyond that, they host 12-step and non-12-step groups and a variety of other therapeutic modalities. First and foremost, they're peer-based. They're people with lived experience with substance use. Disorders and their family members who can be there when others need them to help show the way and provide hope and to provide resources. So these recovery centers spread throughout the state are there to help people connect with others, providing social activities, opportunities to attend meetings, to engage with recovery coaches, and a variety of other services and programs. And the amazing thing about them is many of the services and programs, if not all of them, are free of charge. There's no requirements to go there, and many of them are open every day of the year. This is really something. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are there are 12. There are 12, yeah. So really there's practically one in every county. Correct. Yep. Most of them are open 365 days a year, seven days a week, with no charge. Correct. So this is incredible, and this is a mighty response on the part of Vermont, along with we have no waiting lists for buprenorphin and methadone treatment. We have many prevention programs beginning. We have community coalitions springing up all over the state. We have alcoholics anonymous, narcotics anonymous. We should be very proud to be Vermonters. Are we not leaders in our country when it when it comes to responding to this crisis? Definitely. At every level, our engagement and our investment in in addressing substance use disorders and hoping individuals and families is certainly among the leaders of the pack, and that goes beyond the recovery centers to areas of intervention, treatment, and you know harm reduction, many other areas that where we where we connect with other people. Yeah, and maybe we can touch on all of that, on all of that today. You know, as I was like setting the context, you know, and describing the public health crisis in America today, some of the numbers that I quoted were large and I always I always feel a little bit insensitive when I'm talking about numbers because it takes away from the the tragedy of what what's really happening, and I want to be clear about this. That the biggest number is one. The biggest number is not 72,000 or 31,000. The biggest number is one. And I'd like to move into that area now, and I'd like to ask you both to to tell your family's story. Well, our our journey with addiction started six years ago with our daughter, Jenna. She was no different than anyone else. She you know, she loves soccer and horses and skiing, and you know, we did lots of family vacations. And then she actually went on a vacation or a journey with her best friend after high school to Germany and Dubai and India, and when she returned home, she went to college and she was in her first semester of college. And she loved it. She was in the medical field. She wanted to help people, and she was doing really well. She had a 3.8 average. She had a it was Christmas break, and she had been in a relationship with her boyfriend for three years, and he, you know, abusive, he was abusive, and he actually beat her up on Christmas Eve, and she was brought to the emergency room, and they gave her 30 days of Oxy-Cotin, and she had no broken bones. She had a broken heart, and that was like the perfect storm that started our journey. And Jenna was depressed, and she had an addictive gene, and she also you know, was just prescribed 30 days of Oxy-Cotin, and it was the perfect storm. Jenna's life was never the same. Ours was never the same, and we seemed to lose our daughter in this crazy world of addiction. We fought it for many years. We ended out of rehabs. And the final place we had in December, she had finally come and said that she was ready to get help, and we brought her to a place in New Hampshire, and she definitely thrived there, and you could see the change in her. She became an advocate for everybody. She was always trying to help everybody get better, and they called her the greeting girl because she would just, every time someone would come in, she would be by their side and help them work through it. And then in February, she went to sober living, and she had called us. We were in Costa Rica, and she had called us and said, Mom, I am so at peace. I am so happy. I finally found peace. And then she asked us if we would help her. She had a friend that came in, Paige, and she asked us if we would send money. And she's like, Mom, she just needs money, and if she just give her two weeks, I know she'll get better. And I said, Jenna, we can't help everybody. You want to help everybody? And so Jenna said, Mom, I'm going to be here for nine months, because I'm going to commit that to my recovery. But when I get out, she says, you and I, she says, we're going to make a difference, and we're going to go and raise money for people that can, that have no resources. They have, you know, they have lost everything because of trying to survive this addiction. And we're going to educate people because people don't realize what addiction is, and there's a huge stigma around it. So that was Jenna's promise. And we lost Jenna in February 15th to a fat no overdose. And so we decided, Greg and I decided to carry on and, you know, her wishes to help others. Well, that is certainly a poignant and a beautiful story. And, you know, I know that you have the sympathy and the empathy and the compassionate response of everyone who hears your story. So we are, we are with you as much as we can be in your grief. And I would add that I think we, although we share your grief, I think we borrow your courage. We want to be like you. We want to have the courage you have to stand up and face what is an overwhelming tragedy in healthcare in our country. So maybe we should, like we'll begin there. We'll go into this idea of, you know, turning your grief into motivation to continue Jenna's promise, to help people with addiction. What are some of the vision that you have for Jenna's promise? What is it that you are creating in the Memorial Valley? Well, we're creating a space, a safe place for people. We're bringing the community in, getting the community involved. We purchased an old church in Johnson that we're calling Jenna's house now. And that's, that's our base where we work from. And it's going to be our community center and fundraising event center. And Jenna had some life insurance since we bought when she was little. And that life insurance paid to purchase the building. So it actually is Jenna's house. And so our goals there are to raise awareness, get the community involved, have a place for people in recovery to maybe dance or sing or have a safe place to go where there's not alcohol and it will be drug free. And so it's a pretty good start. We're working with Daniel's group out of the recovery center to see what he can add. There's more space downstairs and we're working on that and it's coming along. We're hoping Daniel can get his board motivated and get it funded and we'll go from there. But you know, we're raising awareness, giving people a safe place and also having a fundraising space so we can help more people. Yeah. This is really, this is really something to be part of Vermont's mighty response. And to network and combine your energy with the energy that's, you know, really been consistently growing at the North Central Vermont Recovery Center since 2010. So congratulations to all of you for creating a real synergy in that community. We need this. Daniel, would you like to maybe let's talk about the North Central Vermont Recovery Center and how it started, where it started, where it's the evolution of it and where it is today with some of the kind of emphasis that you're placing on its approach to this issue that we see in our communities today. So in the fall of 2009, a group of individuals from a variety of different perspectives, legislators and other prominent community members, counselors and so forth, realized that there was a need for a place for people in recovery or who want to be in recovery and got a small space in sort of a glorified storage container in the center of Morrisville. And it grew little by little through amazing volunteerism among the peer community. What I say is sort of the bridge to chapter two in 2012, got its first executive director, Stephanie Capizzi, and over the next six years grew into a really prominent partner in the community working with lots of other agencies and people and more and more people were using it and really adding new programs and services. And then in March of 2018, I joined the team with Stephanie and Megan. And since then it has just gone really in a really amazing direction. We have grown dramatically. Our team, we've gone from one full-time and two part-time employees to eight. We have over 20 recovery coaches and increased our volunteer base. But what's really special about what we're doing is accomplishing together a more holistic vision for recovery, for a life in recovery. You know, we talk about the definition of recovery being a process of change by which someone attains a more healthier, happier, more fulfilling life. And our team and our programs and services are a reflection of that value system of providing more paths to recovery and in recovery to having more 12-step and non-12-step groups to adding health and wellness, arts and music, harm reduction services because the process of recovery is often not linear but rather very much intertwined with progress and setbacks and challenges. And often it's not simply about becoming sober but rather dealing with all of a person's basic needs and all of the things that contribute to and stem from addiction. Well, just so you know, the first guest I ever had on my show, I was a guest on Margaret Harrington's show. And what we did was I interviewed Stephanie Capizzi. It was over just about two years ago. And it was wonderful to have her on the show and hear the history of the North Central Vermont Recovery Center. And of course, you know, I was, you know, I've observed that I've been a part of it for a long time. And I've seen firsthand the incredible growth that's occurred in the Lamoille Valley as a result of the North Central Vermont Recovery Center. I used to call Stephanie our fearless director. She was the right woman at the right time and the right place and she did the right thing and really established a recovery center in an environment, you know, which largely was very unaware of the dynamics of addiction, of the nature of this brain disease that we call addiction. And for her to have you as a successor is like a very, very fortunate thing indeed. And when I listen to you speak, what I hear, what is really music to my ears is I hear reflected in everything you say, like a grounding in evidence-based addiction science that we know that addiction is not a moral failure. Addiction is not a criminal personality. Addiction is not some sort of weakness. Addiction is a disease of the brain. Hijacks the brain, vital survival functions in the brain. And the person with addiction is no longer in control. They no longer have choice. They're driven to seek and self-administer drugs. And in the context of what's happening today, that can very well result in death. So, you know, to call the three of you lifesavers is so accurate that you're out there and what you're doing is actually saving lives. So Daniel, I'd like you to speak a little bit more about the North Central Vermont Recovery Center. And maybe offer a vignette, you know, or a memory of what you've seen occur there. I mean, I can tell you that when I was in Lamoor County, I used to visit the Recovery Center a lot. I'm in recovery myself. It's a great place for someone with one day recovery and it's a great place for someone with 35 years of recovery. There's kind of a reciprocity that occurs there. And very often I've heard people say, without this place, I'd be dead. Without this place, I'd be relapsing. Without this place, I'd be in jail. Do you care to speak about that? How you hold people while they get better? I think what you're speaking to is that this is about whole lives and whole people. It's about not just the substance use disorder and the thing that presents itself most obviously in their lives and what brings us through their doors. We work with people at all phases of their lives, all ages, all demographics. And so people come to us in a variety of conditions and, you know, some have hit rock bottom. Some are on the descent and some others are just reaching out. For me personally, there have been a few instances where people came with complex needs with, you know, severe mental health challenges, suicidality, where they had no financial or other resources to speak of. They were on the brink of losing their homes. They had lost their jobs. They were estranged from their families. And one case in particular, which I think is truly emblematic of the power of recovery centers of peer work and of these relationships that we build is there was, you know, there was a person that I worked with that he's alive is truly a miracle and, you know, a veteran with severe PTSD. He never thought that he was worthy of benefits because he didn't, he wasn't physically injured and so he never sought benefits. And all of those situations had played out was on the brink of homelessness, had gotten very behind and had really been estranged from his family and it was a family that had a lot of addiction in the picture. And we entered, we built a partnership and a relationship of regular check-ins above all, first and foremost, not just about the substance use and about whether he was clean and sober or not. It was about having regular check-ins and making sure that, you know, we had hope, he had hope that we could move forward in his life that I knew that he was okay on a daily or a weekly basis. And we faced so many challenges. There really, we severe housing shortage and inability to really overcome some of these barriers for a long time. But over the course of a year, coming more and more regularly and connecting with my entire, our entire team, our entire community and getting purpose through volunteering and all of these other interactions, his life is dramatically different than, than it was rehoused, but kind of reconnected with family in some really profound ways. And that is, that is just one of many such examples of people who, whose lives are dramatically changed, whether over a short time or a long time. And that's what we can accomplish through resource navigation through and just simple human connection. Yeah. Yeah. And his life is but one of many lives. And that's part of the issue, you know, is information like this doesn't get out enough, you know, like in the media on movies, you know, you'll see people with addiction portrayed in a certain way. And it feeds into stigma. And it feeds into like the public's misperception of the potential of people with addiction entering into recovery and having full rewarding lives characterized by, by giving back to the community. I mean, one of the things that, that I'm certain of beyond the doubt is that all people with addiction want to recover on a deep level. They all want to recover and they're all capable of recovering if they're provided with the evidence-based quality medical psychotherapeutic and recovery support services over time. And this is one of the tragedies. And I guess I'd like to go to the Tetra's now, that when Daniel was speaking, I thought a few times about your initial description of Jenna, and Jenna's promise that you're carrying on for her, that she was in a residential treatment program and she wanted to help someone and she was talking about stigma and wanting to go on and help people. I'd like you to talk about that a little bit. Like, what, what is it that I noticed in, in looking a little bit at your website that, that part, part of the emphasis is on helping families to negotiate the system and fans supporting families with children with addiction to, you know, to, to offer them support. Would you like to talk about that a little bit? Go ahead. I feel like the, there's so many families out there that don't know what to do and they just feel hopeless and they don't feel like they can talk to anyone because the life they live is very similar to the attic because it's ups and downs and, and they don't know where to get the support and they, and they're not educated on this disease that it's not their loved one that's doing these, you know, stealing or whatever. It's, their brain's been hijacked. Greg and I really want to somehow form a support group for families in Junction with Daniel, you know, to have speakers and to educate the families and what if we educate the families and give them support and they turn around and educate the person that's in addiction and support them and say it, you know, instead of being very judgmental and saying, you can get better, why can't you get better? And, you know, and just saying like, you know, we're here for you. We understand what you're going through and, and just to have that support and education from the family to be able to give that to the person that is struggling. Yeah, yeah, that's a crucial ingredient and it's really encouraging to me to see that you're joining forces and that's going to be one of your, your focuses going forward. You know, when you, when you describe the loved one as being, you know, not recognizable, that somehow down under those symptoms is the loved one. The person is still there. But with the progression of the symptomatology of the disease, the person becomes less and less visible to people around them and to themselves because they're compelled by, by, by addiction to engage in behaviors that are, are really symptoms. The problem is, one of the many problems is that when, when, when, when people who are uneducated in this see that, they interpret those behaviors as choices. You are choosing to do this. Why, why don't you just stop? That would be the rational response. But as we know, like a addiction disease is anything but rational. In fact, it hijacks the word you use parts of the brain that have to do with, with cognition, thinking, learning, motivation, reward, the ability to inhibit impulses that are self-destructive. You see a person behaving that way and it's mind boggling unless you have education. So I mean, this focus that you're, you're, you're taking on educating families is extremely, extremely important. It is. And you know, I think to go back to Jenna, I remember her coming to me and saying, you know, mom, I can't even stand looking at myself in the mirror. I can only imagine what you see when you look at me and she's like, this is bigger than me. It owns me. And I don't know how to get away from it. And the desperation that you saw, I mean, she says, I don't want this life. I hate this life. You know, and I think it comes back to a lot of people don't even, you know, they think they get high, but it becomes a maintenance thing. They just have to use so they're not deathly ill. And, you know, like Jenna said, I haven't got high for five years. I'm just trying to survive. And it's, you know, another piece that's just, just it's survival. It's, you understand the diction really well. And you've learned a lot from Jenna. And I'm sure, you know, from, from reading and other professionals that you've been collaborating with. And this is the kind of message that we need to get out to the public for a person with addiction. It's akin to starving to death. You know, if any one of us was starving to death, we would get food. That's a survival behavior of survival instinct. The brain is hijacked in a way that causes a person to behave that acquiring drugs is as important as a starving person's acquiring food. And this is what we're up against. So the idea of support, you know, 365 days a year, seven days a week at no fee where people can go and be around what I think you mentioned it a little bit earlier, Daniel, it's so important. The idea of peer support, being in a room with people who understand where you're coming from, why you're acting that way, how it feels to be that way, how much you need support, peers who really understand that it's absolutely crucial. Maybe talk a little bit about that, about peer recovery coaches, the kinds of activities that volunteers and peers, people with addiction, people in recovery from addiction are providing at the center. Yeah, it's hard to really overstate how valuable that connection is, and it applies for families, too, which is partly why three of our 20 plus recovery coaches are family coaches. We specifically recruited them from among people who had had similar long prolonged periods of trying to help their loved ones and whether they were successful or not, there are lessons to be learned. But there is something about the peer connection. There is an immediate and palpable trust, I think back to a time when I went up to the emergency department to work with an individual, and very little was said, but there was an instant acknowledgement that he knew I understood and I was not judging. Whether it's spoken or unspoken, there's a knowledge whether somebody is genuine and cares and is not judging, you just feel it. But that being said, within that environment, whether it's volunteers or staff members or board members or any personnel, recovery coaches who are in that environment, there's really a mutual gain and a mutual understanding where we're trying to create an ecosystem of support for one another in all aspects of our lives. There's a trust and an ability to be honest and truthfully each other. In my professional and life experience, shame and guilt are the two big drivers of setbacks and relapse. And whether somebody's sober or not, if you don't deal with those and allow the person to, number one, forgive themselves, number two, allow them to feel hope and look forward in their lives and not let that take a steal from them, their opportunity to move forward in their lives, then we really haven't done a whole lot. We might have gotten them to stop using a substance, but unless we deal with the underlying issues, not only stemming from before the addiction set in, but during that period of suffering, then we're going to be prone to setbacks. And that's really where building those connections, sometimes it's really as simple as being there to listen. Recovery coaches are there to listen and to provide resources to say, what are your basic needs in your life that are going to help you move forward? That is that motivational interviewing, that ability to just connect is something you really can't teach. It either exists or it doesn't. Well said, Daniel. And I want to pick up on one of your points there that I think is really important. What you said was, one of the things you said was that you just feel it. And then I believe that's true. We're feeling creatures. You just feel it. So if someone understands you and someone has compassion for you, they might say it, and if it's true, you'll feel it. But they don't even have to say it. You'll feel it. And the same is true for stigma. That's the problem. When people approach people with addiction through a lens of stigma, people with addiction feel it. It's just that way. We're feeling creatures. And this is what makes people reluctant to come forward for help. And that's very much what a large portion of the addiction recovery channel is about. To get evidence-based information out there to people in a context of compassion so we can educate public. So the public will take in this information and they'll have a consciousness change. They'll let go of stigma. They'll unlearn stigma and unleash compassion. So people with addiction will just feel it. They'll just feel it. And we'll change the context. We'll change the social and the cultural context. So people with addiction eventually will be able to say, I think I have a substance use problem. Where can I get help? Rather than languishing in the shadows and perhaps falling victim, you know, to a fentanyl overdose. And what's happening, I think, in Vermont today is so encouraging. I don't know about the whole country, but I know about Vermont. And there literally is a ground swell of compassion occurring in Vermont today. And you're part of that. You're leading that. The three of you are really kind of feeding into that. So maybe we can, I'd like to talk a little about that, about the community's readiness to accept what you're doing. Do you see readiness in the community to get behind what you're doing? Oh, we absolutely do. It's been incredible. The amount of support we've had. I think when we lost Jenna, we had two choices. We could either hide in the closet or we could stand up. And Don and I decided to, excuse me, stand up. And one of the reasons, we can't bring Jenna back, right? So I wished we could, but we can't. So at that point, we have to move on. And moving on to us is helping other people. So this journey started shortly after we lost Jenna. One of the biggest things for us is that we want to give people the ability to talk about addiction and their loved ones or whatever relationship they have. And the way we have to do that is stop whispering and speak loudly. This is what's going on in my family. And the more people that we can get to speak, the more people we're going to help. Because, you know, if you're a person that's transporting drugs into our communities, then what do you want? You want people to be quiet and whisper and hide, right? Once we can start talking about this without being shameful, then things are going to change. This whole community's got to know what's going on. And that there is help. And don't be ashamed to ask for help. We, you know, Daniel's group in LaMoyle County, they do a tremendous amount. And a lot of people don't know about it or they're ashamed to go there. So we've got to change that thought process. I couldn't agree with you more wholeheartedly. And it seems to me that you are speaking loud. And it seems to me like the community in Johnson and the greater LaMoyle Valley is paying attention to you. I mean, has anybody tried to prevent you from establishing what you're establishing? Or have people been cooperative with zoning? And have you had contributions? Has things like that happened? Oh, absolutely. We've had a lot of support financially and in kind donations. Our Act 250 permit, Ruziano Engineering out of St. Albans paid for the whole thing. Wow. That's something. Our architects, we were putting some handicap bathrooms in the main floor of the Jenna's house because there really wasn't any. And we want everybody to be able to use that. Yes. The architects, the design was free. I've got a fellow who's going to build it. And we've got another fellow who's going to do the plumbing and another one that's going to do the electrical all for all as a donation. So good. And we've raised a substantial amount of money and it comes from everybody. People know that there's an issue in our communities. I think they're looking for somebody from the private or the public side to stand up and lead. That's how I feel. I see it's just like they've been waiting unfortunately for us. We lost Jenna and then we stood up. But people have been waiting for somebody in the public to just stand up and say, it's okay. It is what it is. We've got to work through it. We need to educate. And we haven't had very few naysayers. So it's been incredible. I have to say it. And I hope you understand what I'm saying. That it is an historical moment in our culture. And this is the way I see it. I see the change in culture as literally the gift of the ones who have been taken from us. That the ones who have been taken by overdose have gotten the attention of American culture finally. And now we're committed and it's people like you and there are many like you that are committed to finally doing something about this. And I think as Daniel was saying, it's doing something about addiction, proper substance use disorder, but it's also by extension doing something about the very quality of the way we live our lives in our country and providing more nurturing inputs for children and adolescents and families. It's all encompassing. If we're going to deal with this problem, this symptom, it's really a symptom of American shortcoming and the way we live. If we're going to deal with this symptom, we have to change the nature of the way we live. And that's their gift to us. That is the way that I see it. Daniel, do you want to talk a little bit about the community's response to the North Central Vermont Recovery Center? I think Greg's right in the sense that we are highly utilized, but there has always been this sort of idea that people who come are glad that we're a little bit hidden behind a giant building, you know, that they are afraid to be seen walking in our doors. They don't know what to expect. There's this fear of being judged or being public. And there are people from all walks of life and all demographics. You know, we receive between 7,500 and 10,000 visits a year and a population of 26,000. So it's not that people don't need or aren't utilizing the services that exist. And I'm not just being just about NCVRC, but the system as a whole, social services and human services, we have been supported by the community. We were, you know, for example, we're about 50 percent private funded, you know, and so we do rely on our community and we have incredible partnerships. I would say if I could identify this historic moment you're talking about, there is a coalescence going on and a maturation of recovery services going on, a focus on prevention and recovery, as opposed to just enforcement, which is to say incarceration in many cases and intervention, some of these other areas of the addiction space. We are coming into a real moment for recovery and for prevention, one where people who are in recovery can come to light, can speak their truth, can be themselves, can acknowledge both families and individuals more. And I've seen that happen over the last two to three years. We have a long ways to go. And that really speaks to what we hope to accomplish together, which is to create a recovery and a healing oriented community, to create a suite of services and connections where no matter where somebody enters a system or no matter what they're going through and no matter what contributes to or comes from those things, there will be somewhere for them to reach out and get comprehensively any level of care that they need that there will be people for them at all times who can lift them up, provide them with hope, give them a way forward. That's what we're trying to accomplish. So it's, you know, we're in Morrisville and our territory is vast, the Lamoille Valley. And this is, I'm speaking generally, you know, the same situation plays out with the other 11 recovery centers or other entities that exist as we have large territories that we, and some are underserved. Johnson literally doesn't have a doctor right now, you know. So part of this vision is to bring things to Johnson and to the western Lamoille Valley that right now are largely Morrisville or Stowcentric. So this is, in my mind, with this historic moment, we have the opportunity to amplify and extend all of the things that are being done well to all of the areas of our region to better serve the entire population. Beautiful. Beautiful. And very, very well said. A recovery-oriented and sensitive community. This is a goal worth dedicating your lives to. And I feel so fortunate to know you three and to have had you on the show today. And, you know, for the viewing audience to really pay attention to what's being said here, you know, that we care, we care about people with substance use disorder. We care about people with addiction, that there are thousands of people, we have three on the show, but there are thousands in Vermont, on all levels of government, healthcare, education, volunteerism, AA, NA. I mean, the state is really powerfully equipped to deal with this and to bring people into recovery, languishing in the shadows, get them out of the shadows, bring them into recovery because, as you know, and I know, people in recovery, they want to give back, they want to tell their story. 365 days a year, seven days a week, you know, people in recovery are trying to help other people enter into recovery. So, I want to thank you for your talents. I want to thank you for your dedication, your relentless dedication and what seems to me to be a very, very hopeful endeavor for the Memorial Valley. And hopefully, you know, other areas will notice and attempt to replicate what you're achieving. So, in closing the show, at the end of the show, we'll be displaying contact information for the North Central Vermont Recovery Center and also for Jenna's promise. If people in the viewing audience want to volunteer or want to contact people with encouraging messages, if there are people out there who want to do something and may have some resources, if you want to donate to either entity, please feel free to do so. Your donation will be put to a really worthwhile use. And in closing, I've gotten into the habit of allowing my guests to close. So, I'd like each of you to close with, you know, a parting comment to the viewing audience. So, Daniel, would you like to start that? If you were a person who is suffering from a substance use disorder, but also any other thing, depression, anxiety, from an eating disorder, from any of the things that are part of the human condition, please reach out. There are resources and I really believe that this something is happening right now. And even if you've been in the system before, things are getting better. There is hope. There are people out there who are ready to step up and show and help show the way to hold hands with you to walk side by side. There are many of us out there who have been through lots of things in our lives. Don't be afraid to ask for help. There's no shame in that. If you're a family member, there are more things coming and there are so many of us and if we don't talk to each other, if we don't speak up, then we won't find each other and we won't be able to support each other. We are all affected by this. There are very few if any people out there who aren't affected by substance use disorders by addiction and by many other things and we can help each other. And if you're a provider, don't give up on people. Please don't give up on people. Recovery is possible. There are people all around you who are living examples that recovery is possible and no one to do great things in their lives and give far more back to the world than you could ever imagine they will. And so I hope that you will not give up, that you will redouble your efforts, that you'll give everything you've got because you never know about the ripple effect of the next person you help. Thank you, Daniel. For me, I think it's to the families. I feel like don't hide. I mean, Greg and I did that for so long and when we finally got out there and realized there is a lot of people just like us suffering and when you hide and you go in that dark hole just like the person that you're living with, it doesn't get better. And so talk about it, reach out, get help, and I really believe the community is ready to support people and we can make a difference in this community together and I believe that every day the education of this community is more and more. And so reach out. You can reach out any families or anybody that's suffering just call and there's help. Thank you. I would kind of, Daniel and Don have done a pretty good job here closing but you know my big thing too is let's stop whispering, let's get out there. You know, if you know somebody struggling, even if they're a neighbor, go help them. Go talk to them. Say, hey, what's going on? What can I do to help? Because it's going to take a grassroots drive, a community drive to change the path that we're on. And we, you know, I've seen a lot of people that were addicts that have come out and recovered and they're just like us sitting here right now. They're, you know, if somebody's been recovered for a year or two, they're no different than anybody in this room. They really are and that's what we're shooting for. That's what Jenna's house is about. We're going to be a safe place. We're going to have people that can come there and enjoy the space or we bought the coffee shop in town. So we're going to provide employment for people that are in recovery and sober living. We're just getting started. It's not going to be open this weekend, but it will be soon. And, you know, we think that people need hope. And when you're working and you're feeling good about yourself, that's hope. And we think we can help that. And we hope our model does actually spread. And, you know, I want to thank you, Ed, for giving us a chance to tell our story. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for being on the show. Yep. Thank you. Thank you for being on the show. Thank you. And I'll be over for a cup of coffee as soon as that shop opens. I'll let you know. All right.