 My name is Ruth Sealy, and I work for Red Hat on our open source and standards team. And so my job is to help all the upstream projects that are so important to Red Hat's success be successful themselves. So a lot of this is about some of the things that we do, and it is also about some of the things that I've seen other projects do very well. And then if we have time at the end, we can talk about the help that you need for your own projects. So the first thing you have, obviously, you have a project. And you think it's an amazing idea. You spend a lot of time working on it. Maybe alone, maybe with a couple of your friends, and you have a really great code, which you know because you wrote it, but you're the only one using it. Why is that? Nobody else is here. What's going on? Well, you are not alone in having something fantastic that nobody else wanted to use, like Ose, the Betamax player, which objectively was clearly superior to the VHS player. It was technically superior. It could hold two hours instead of the one hour VHS tape, which couldn't even hold a movie in the beginning. This is not the only time that Sony has been epically wrong and lost the fight. But what it does mean is just because you're actually the best doesn't mean that your users know that or that you're going to be the one who wins. How many of you are Dvorak keyboard fans? There are still some of them around. There are two of them in the back of the room, arguably faster, easier, more efficient, and yet how many of you actually have one or have even seen one? Not so many. So this talk is about how not to be Betamax or Dvorak or any of these other arguably not so successful. How many of you have used at least three of those things? Yeah. I bought an HP Touchpad. It was actually kind of handy. I still own a QCat. I might be the last one with a QCat. And I bought an ET Atari game on the day of the dig. They dug them all out of the landfill. I went to a comic book store and bought a fresh new unboxing for $5.00. It was totally worth it. Still, terrible game. That one was a failure for a good reason. So the point is, just because you've done something awesome once doesn't mean that everything you do is going to be a winner because a lot of these are very successful companies that didn't have successful products in the end. Many of them have done very, very successful things. Juiced was created by the founders of Skype and Vasavi was a mint competitor. So one success doesn't mean more success. So the first thing you need to do is figure out what you're doing. You need to set some goals. The road to success is paved with the idea of what you're going to do at the end of the road. What is success for your project? It could be a number of things. And what success means is up to you. You might be wanting to fix a problem, which is kind of what they say all of open source is built a scratch niche and all of that. Basic goal. You may not need the rest of this talk, but that's where you start. It might be just to get an A in a class, the same sort of thing. It might be that you want to get more users than developers on your project, which is a noble goal. Have more people using it than working on it. It might be to gather contributors, which is another good goal. It might be something else. World domination, I don't know, aim for the stars. What success is is what success means to you. Part two of this, though, is figuring out why you're choosing open source, because that's going to be important to a lot of the rest of what you do. And as a side note, you should also choose a license for your code and not dump stuff into GitHub without carrying what your license is, but that is an entire other talk. I just wanted to mention it. So that road to success also littered with failures. There was a study that was published in 2012. It was based on slightly older data where they looked at source forge and a pile of open source projects. And they defined a successful project as having at least three releases and value for, quote, at least a few users, which is a pretty low bar. And they also surveyed developers for more detail about them. So out of 174,333 projects total, they were only able to actually assess about 145,000 of them. Of those, about 17% met that relatively low bar for successful. 46% of them got abandoned after the first release. 37% after the next release. And never met that very basic goal of three releases and useful to somebody somewhere. So you need to set your goals, decide what you're going to do, and then figure out the path for getting there. So what we're going to talk about is how to get there. The first thing is first because, again, we are open source. The first thing is community. And what community really means is communities because you at the very least have a group of users and a group of contributors. And there's some crossover, but they aren't exactly, ideally, always the same group of people. Now, sometimes that might mean double the work, especially if the Venn diagram of these two barely touches. And so when considering the approach to any of the rest of the parts of this talk, you need to consider which group you're addressing. The users, the contributors, or some group of both. For example, a good, simple example is mailing lists. A lot of projects, most of them have lists that are separate for users and for contributors. And then possibly a lot more subgroups from there. Blogs are another good example. The content that you write for one group isn't necessarily the appropriate content for another. And so as an example in Fedora, we have the Fedora community blog, which has sections for contributors of various parts of the project. And then we have Fedora magazine, which is really intended for the users, and to tell them about new things, updates, things like that. Communication matters. And that means you have to figure out how you're going to communicate with and within your communities. Defaulting to open is hard. It's not easy. It's hard for a lot of people. And we like to say it a lot in open source communities, simply default to open. But it's not really just that simple. Sometimes being a dictator is simply easier. And yet it's not the way that we have designed these communities to work. So as many, many smarter people have said before me, surprise is the opposite of engagement. When we are open with people, we avoid surprising them. We keep them in the loop. That doesn't mean that they have to be happy with the decision and happy with the outcome, but they were involved in the decision process. Nothing will kill your new contributors' desire to participate faster than surprise. It makes them feel like they're not a part of the community. Surprise is exclusionary. Building community means talking to your community, working with your community, and making decisions as a community. Now, decision-making, communicating, means that you need a tool for communication. And ideally, that's a public place, a public place with archives. And there are a lot of tools, and you might as well make it enjoyable, because nobody is going to want to work on your project, particularly if it's the kind of project they're working on for free if it's a horrible, horrible drudgery to work on. So pick the right tool for the right job. Now that you've got them caring, so you have to pick the right tools, and there are a lot of tools for different tasks. Tools for sharing code, tools for project management, tools for talking to each other. Choose the ones that are right for your community, which again involves talking to them and making the right choices. So, for example, a lot of people now use Slack. There are also a lot of people in open source who are adamantly opposed to using Slack because it is not an open source tool. Which one is your community? That's going to be the answer. It's not about what's simplest for you. It's about what you want to be working with. Are the people that you're trying to reach interested in using IRC? There are a whole lot of people new to the open source world who have zero interest in using IRC. They feel like it's from the time of the dinosaurs and they don't want to do it. If that's your target group of users, then IRC might not be the right option. Ideally, you're communicating in a public place openly, and ideally, you have an archive. And so one of the good tools for this is something called Hyperkitty, which encourages the joys of a mailing list with the joys of a forum. If I send an email to a mailing list, it shows up as a reply in the forum. That means that people who like option A and people who like option B get the same results and get to access it in whichever way they want. Sometimes there are compromises in ways that you can reach both of your groups. This is what the equation comes down to. I was really good at geometry proofs even if this doesn't look like it. What this comes down to is that we're getting more and more means more contributions and more potential for success and meeting all these goals you set about 10 slides ago, right? So, now that we have community and people who are excited, that means we have contributors and we need to find more users and marketing. I know people don't like this word and hopefully you're not them because you came to this talk and I hope you're not afraid it cupcakes, because everybody likes cupcakes, right? So we don't have to say marketing, we can call it cupcakes. There are many ingredients to your cupcake plan, and we're going to talk about a lot of those ingredients and ways that you can implement that plan. The best thing that you can start with is data, statistics, the quantity of ingredients that you need in your cupcakes. First rule of marketing is make it sound appealing, put some cupcakes on that slide. This is actually a cupcake I made, and I realized that it was a perfect example for this slide because it is so much happening in one place, and that's really what a marketing plan is all about. To be specific, that is a vanilla cupcake with a brownie swirl with strawberry ice cream, marshmallow, fluff, whipped cream, sprinkles, and a cherry on top. Only made it once, highly recommended. Similarly, there are many, many things that you need to implement for your successful cupcake slash marketing plan. So we're going to go through a lot of these, not in any particular order, not necessarily all things that you're going to tackle tomorrow because that is a really overwhelming amount of work, but let's start with a website because it's 2016 and pretty clearly your most important communication vehicle. So it should probably not suck. Inkscape, I think, is one of the best examples of an open source project website. First of all, it tells me what it does. I cannot tell you how many times I have Googled open source thing that I want a piece of software to do, found something that I think does it, and I go to their website and I can't actually tell if they do the thing that I am looking for. Very basic piece of information. What does your project actually do? The Inkscape site also has a clear place for users to go and a clear place for developers to go. It has obvious links for common tasks downloaded here. That is an important thing that you want to do. And yet, many project sites do not have a clear and obvious download link. And I feel reasonably confident that this software that is for creating art actually is useful because they have a really attractive website and so evidence of itself. So, like, say you are making a project that is a CMS. You should probably have a good website that is actually using your own CMS. That would be a good way to go. Next up, let's talk about social media. First of all, that means your project's social media, not yours, because I am sure that you are a lovely person, but you are not your project. And what happens if one day you leave your project or you get a whole bunch of other people or you would really like to talk about your ski trip and none of your users really care about your ski trip? So, for starters, your project should probably have its own social media account. And by probably I mean yes. Also, all of those people who write my opinions are my own for their Twitter profile. That's crap. So, another good reason for your project to have its own account, because nobody cares what you think about the elections. They care about your project. You should also be responsive. You shouldn't tweet once every three months and then, again, not for six months and completely ignore anybody who is talking about you. There are a lot of ways to find out who is talking about you and where. And the best thing that you can do is then go answer them. Be responsive. Be involved. Talk to the people that want to talk to you. And then you can start gathering metrics. Hootsuite does this. There are a lot of other tools that do it. Facebook actually does it from within Facebook itself. You can find out, are you actually doing any good? Is anyone noticing what you're talking about? And particularly with Facebook, this is such a bear, because they change the rules all the time. And you could spend half of your time chasing this. This is why social media manager is a job, because it actually gets to be a full-time job. That doesn't mean it should be intimidating if you have a new project. It just means that you need to figure out what the right social media tool is for your project and to focus your energies there. So, this is an example of being a little creative. This is the inkscape hashtag on Instagram. And Instagram probably isn't the social media that you first thought of when you thought, what should I use for my project? But for Instagram, it's the right place. And particularly if you're interested in diversity of age or gender in your projects, you might have to think beyond the basic Facebook and Twitter. If you want youth, they're on Snapchat. And I do not have stunningly expert advice for you about how to work your software project on Snapchat. It may depend on your specific project, but that's where the young people are. If you want women, and I know this is going to sound really cliche when it comes out of my mouth, but the numbers say they are on Pinterest. And if you're not a Pinterest person and you think it's all wedding cakes and Mason jar projects, this is a Pinterest search for open source software. There's a lot of it on there. This is a search for Docker containers on Pinterest. It's on there. This is also a really good reason that images are important on your blog posts, because that's how Pinterest gets used for a lot of these sorts of things. It's a way that blog posts are shared. And so, if you always use the same whale with containers on it for the image on your blog posts, not super Pinterest shareable. This is a diagram I actually cut out a few of the more obscure and very location dependent ones, but these are the leading social networks as of April. The ones that you don't recognize are Chinese, mostly owned by the same company QQ and WeChat and whatnot. And so again, if you are targeting mainly people in China, then you need to figure out the Chinese social media and China is not the only place there are other regions of the world that have very specific social media that are the most common. Now, Pinterest and LinkedIn and Telegram down there at the bottom, just because they're at the bottom of this list doesn't mean that they're at the bottom of your list. If that's where the users are, if those 100 million users are the ones that you want, then by golly, those are the social media tools that you should be on. I mentioned metrics. This is the metrics that you can pull out of Hootsuite. You can actually, if you were willing to pay for it, get Hootsuite to tell you all kinds of things about many, many details of your social media interactions. There are also things that you can do there for free that will tell you lots of things. And as I mentioned, it's even built into Facebook, the basic numbers of engagements, people who are seeing your posts, sharing them, responding to them, and so forth. Social media is becoming a bit of a science, which is somewhat of a strong word. And yet there's a lot of research going into who's using what tools and how. But the basic message is if you've gained three Twitter followers in the past six months, that's probably a bad sign. And you should figure out why. Is it the wrong place? Are you sending the wrong messages? Are you sending them too often? Not enough? What's going on? That's what metrics can do for you. And as a side note, this isn't about social media, but this is a tool that we use at Red Hat for community health. It's a company called Vitergia. And so it helps us see things like participation on a mailing list or code contributions and whatnot. And you can drill down a little bit further into those. So if that's the sort of information that you'd like about your community health, that's another type of metrics you might want to gather. Moving on to collateral. These are just a few of my favorite pieces that we've created for Fedora. They're a few years old. If you're going to get to the size where you're doing conference booths or even conference talks, which are A plus free, you are probably going to want to have some collateral. Because even though we kind of think, oh, I don't need the printed papery thing that seems like ancient papyrus, there are a lot of people who still do like that tactile experience or something to put in their bags and go, oh, you know, so much happened in the last three days, but I can go through these things and see who I talked to and what it was I was interested in. I especially like to pick up little postcard sized things so that I can figure out what it was that as I ran by that booth, I thought, that sounds interesting. I'm not sure what they do. I'll grab that card and figure it out later. What makes these sort of interesting, though, is Fedora is not photography software or music software or graphic design software. But we designed these to approach those audiences and explain to them how Fedora and the software packaged and it could be helpful to them. These were collateral designed for very specific audiences. These actually went to South by Southwest about four years ago, which is where you would find many of these sorts of people. Stickers, I call them the currency of open source, as you can see on my laptop, which the picture is from my old laptop. This is about two layers deep. My one before that was about three layers deep. If you go to the exhibit hall, I guarantee you can find a sticker in just about every booth and if you don't, someone is going to come ask you for one and then you're going to make a sad face because you don't have one to give them. The other currency of our people, t-shirts, somewhat controversial over whether we have too many t-shirts happening at open source land and yet again somebody's going to come to your booth and ask for a t-shirt and then you're going to have a sad face from them when you say you don't actually have them. This is from the hashtag Sintos T-Shirt Friday where people post pictures on social media of wearing their Sintos shirts. And as an aside from my half of the population, please order women's size shirts, it will make me very happy. And so what this all comes down to is talking to people. So you can give away things but it's very hard to give away stickers and t-shirts and collateral without actually interacting with other humans, which is almost as scary as marketing but I'm not willing to call people cupcakes quite yet. You're going to have to deal with that stress on your own. So there are lots of things you can do. You can give talks. You can have a booth which is a more expensive investment but that's the path that you're on. If you want that ultimate success, you want to be the big project, that's where you're headed. But maybe start thinking of places that aren't open-source conferences, things that might be relevant to the people that you want to target that especially like, so the reason Fedora went to South by Southwest is because at some point we were preaching to the choir. There is nobody in this building who hasn't heard of Fedora, like five people maybe. And so we started saying, where are our next users? And so then we started going to places like South by Southwest and Maker Faire and approaching these new audiences of users that hadn't already heard the story a thousand times before. Go to hackathons, go to meetups, use meetup.com, find the people who you want to be working with. Don't expect them to magically find you somewhere on the internet. And then just create tutorials which takes off some of that in-person stress. You can reach a lot more people through that magical internet and then maybe they will come find you in person later. So that was a fast forward through a lot of marketing tasks. Not an exhaustive list but a very good start. And none of this is easy and that's why you need contributors. We're going in a circle here. Back to the, we need contributors to get more users and more users means more contributors. Specifically for the purposes of this talk you need writers and designers because it turns out your roommate's English degree was useful after all. Mine's actually in journalism. These are not the same person. They might be in a very rare unicorn case. You might have someone who is both an excellent writer and an excellent designer but in general nobody is good at everything. And these are skills that take time and practice and effort. And it is not uncommon to find in open-source software communities that there is not a lot of respect for these roles. But they are important to your project. Which is pretty much what the entire premise here is. Since we take some of the most shot in Florida and watching massive corporations fail I will show you what happens when you have someone who is not stellar at this communication skill. Let me know when you see what's wrong with this website. The appropriate label for this set of Halloween is not fat girl costumes. That is what happens when you have someone who is poor at communication labeling your products. Another tip. Talk about why you are awesome. Not why your competitors are not. This is one of my favorite videos on YouTube. And I didn't plug in the sound. So what this is is Larry Ellison saying red hat. Over and over and over in his own company's keynote. And it's just someone took it out and clipped. You can go if you just circle Larry Ellison red hat on YouTube. This is what you'll see except with sound. And the sound is red hat, red hat, red hat, red hat, red hat, red hat. Because instead of talking about how great his own products were he kept talking about his competitor. Now what if I've never heard of your competitor or now I have why did you mention it? Why are you talking about them? Why are you talking about someone else instead of how great you are? Just forget about it. Talk about you. Talk about why you're awesome. Talk about why your project is great. Not somebody else. Now my slides are stuck. That's excellent. Documentation. That's the other thing you need a writer for. And importantly your documentation writer is not necessarily your marketing writer. Those are two different sets of skills, which you may find in the same person but people who are good at explaining to you in precise detail how to do something are not necessarily that great at telling you colorfully why it's awesome. Again contributors and users, two different groups of people. Contributor documentation is how do I help your project? And among the things that are difficult to find projects successfully doing on their websites is how to help them. Which seems like a very basic question. I think you have made something awesome and I would like to be a part of it. I have no idea how to do that. User documentation is how do I use this thing? And documentation in general is a much neglected project. Because I think in a lot of cases people build their software and go well, I know how to use it like isn't it obvious? But it's not. It is not always that obvious. Documentation is useful. Tell me how to install the thing. Would be a good start. I've downloaded many things and installation seems like it should be an easy thing and it doesn't always go that simply. I get it installed. What do I do next? What are your features? Help me. Help me help you. This is PHP's documentation which I think does a lot of things right. First of all it is extremely thorough. Second there's that section for user-contributed notes. Which is that handy-dandy place that someone can say oh also this works really well. And wrapping it up in the things that are not the same as each other category. UX and UI. User experience and user interface these are also different skills. Sort of like marketing writing and documentation writing. They look similar but they are different skill sets and you should pay attention to both. If you have not yet gathered one of these people here's what it basically comes down to. You are not your user. You are the one who had the idea and created the thing. That means that you already know exactly what you thought it should do which is not necessarily the same as what it actually does. One of the most important things that you can ask yourself about your software is what are the first 15 minutes like. When I download and install your software what is the first 15 minutes of my experience. Because that is the biggest influencer on whether or not I'm going to go to the next 15 minutes and the next five hours and the next five weeks. If that first 15 minutes is terrible I'm out and I'm never coming back to your website ever ever again. And that means the first 15 minutes for that user not for you because again you think in your head what was supposed to happen not what actually happened. And most importantly after all of that the best thing that you can do as an open source project owner is respect non-code contributions. I mentioned earlier that these are not always the skill sets that are most valued in a community and if you don't respect those contributions those people are going to leave and then you're going to have to either figure out how to do all of those things on your own or you're going to not have them and they're not going to meet those goals that you set in the beginning. People always think that their own piece of a company or a project is the most important. The coders are going to say there's no software if they didn't write it. And marketing says nobody's going to know about it if they don't tell them about it and sale says we're not going to make any money if we're not the ones selling it. And in a company you can expand this to include the lawyers and the HR people and the accounting department and all of that. Everybody thinks that their job is the most important. The reality is you can't do any of these things without everybody. And so the most important thing you can do is respect all of the contributors that you gather not just the ones writing the code because you need them all. I hope that helps. Thanks for coming. So we have some time left so we can do two things. We can do both. We can do questions and then I did this talk a little earlier in the year at scale and what we did was people wanted to as a group look at their own projects websites and talk about what was going well and what was going badly. So I will accept that as a question or any other questions. Anyone? Okay, let me see. We're doing like two desktops here so I got to make the magic happen. Yeah, what's the URL? Ten like TEN. Got it. I spelled something wrong because I can't actually see it from here. Let's try that again. Thinstation.org. All right, so we are definitely doing this as a group because I can't see that at all. So can anyone find out where would I go if I wanted to download this? Is there a link? There is a download zip file. Can I find out if it's going to work on my Mac while ThinStation is based on Linux? Users may never actually see Linux at all. Do I have to have Linux to use it? What is the Linux? Well, maybe we should have started at the beginning. What does it do? ThinStation is a basic and small yet very powerful open source. By the way, open source is not capitalized, not proper now. I might be a journalism major. Thin client operating system supporting all major connectivity protocols. Red had his two words and had it capitalized. Communication is important. Clear communication is built on the rules of grammar. So grammar becomes... I was defending all of English grammar. He was saying, he read your description and said, so what? Is there someone to whom this would be useful who understands and thinks this is an ideal description for what this does? Either it's confusing or none of your users are in this room, both of which are possibilities. Mainly intended for schoolroom, office, company, or department use. So not my house, but can be used at home. So it tells me who my users are. What happens on getting started? Oh, well, that sounds appealing. So to find out how to get started, I have to download a bunch of stuff. So this happens a lot now. A lot of people, in fact, sometimes there's not that homepage. I've found that a lot of projects now when I go to their URL, it just goes ahead and redirects to the GitHub account. If you want anybody who already, who isn't already a super nerd, GitHub looks a little scary. And if they do know what it is, it sounds like the place where the code goes, not where I go to download the thing and find out what it does. Which you may have put all that information there, but that's not what they may be thinking of GitHub is. Does that make sense? For this project, the people who want your thing probably are not scared of GitHub. There's no what? There's no logo. Was there on the previous page? So without having clicked back, the only image I remember seeing on that page is the Firefox logo, which apparently rotates. Logo design is a whole other beast. Do you have a good designer or are you going to end up with something weird that somebody made in MS Paint? Yeah, so that's actually a type treatment. A type treatment would be the fancy word for that. And actually within Red Hat, you may have never noticed at all, but Red Hat products don't have individual logos. So like Red Hat storage doesn't have a clever way of imaging storage into a little picture. We use type treatments for everything. And if you think of the logos of a lot of companies that you respect, they often are simply type treatments of some sort. Maybe super fancy versions of the name, but a lot of times it is simply the words and not some clever logo. And we could do a whole other class on logo design, but I don't think that's what we're here for today. Well, this is very, I would call this Web Design Circa 1998, which I hope you were in for this when you said could you put my URL on the big screen? Oh, so it's based on a GitHub template. That's said, your users are super nerds already, right? To them, this may be a more appealing design. To the set of people who would rather be receiving text-only emails, and you know, if it was an option using links to surf the internet, which is technically possible, probably really, really impractical at this point, I'm sorry, it's 2016. Please catch up to images and video. Yeah, and there are, so if we want to, the long list of things. So just about everything that I blitzed through on a slide could be its own talk and possibly semester-long class altogether. And one of the important things when it comes to web design is accessibility. And so can someone colorblind still read your website? Can a screen reader successfully read it? Do the images all have alt text so that if I can't see your image, I know what it was supposed to be. Was the image critical to understanding the message on your website? Because if that was the only way to get the information, then you have just dismissed everyone who's using a screen reader. Else can we talk about? Does anybody else have comments about what's going on here? I feel like I should have gotten more glasses before I tried to analyze websites on TVs down at my feet. Can I zoom in a little bit? Let's see. Okay, I usually do it over here. Well, I try not to have to. Oh, look at that. Look how big it is. I can almost read it. Excellent idea. I forgot that the magical TV was just simply a browser window. So what are your opinions of... So Under Thin Station, it gives me a one sentence version of what this thing does compared to the giant paragraph version on the right. Do you feel like the one sentence edition Under Thin Station makes it more clear? So, well, and I just noticed that that was even there. So I think I would actually replace the beginning of that paragraph with what it says Under Thin Station, which I hadn't even noticed was there until just now. So now we haven't gotten to the part about can I contribute to this? I guess you just hope that I'll go over to GitHub and hop on the party? Search through the mailing list archive. Well, that sounds like a fun afternoon. Not that I haven't done that afternoon, but I'm going to have to be pretty dedicated to your project already to sift through the mailing list archive. Do you have documentation? Just the wiki. Well, is it bad news that I can't even figure out where to find your documentation? Yeah, so the first thing I would do is stop using a GitHub template for your website. Like, actually, there's so many delightful CMSs these days. So many that are not. I won't start naming the ones that are not. Did anybody else have a website they wanted to look at or do we want to keep telling him what he's done wrong? What's that? Wow, you're just asking for it, aren't you? Actually, Microsoft usually has some really nice websites, so I'm pretty excited. Oh, Below the Fold. What is it is Below the Fold? So there's problem one. So what he said is it's been around for 15 years, and I think you're pretty much saying you're just talking to the same people over and over again. Hoping to reach some new people. Well, that's a whole other set of challenges, isn't it? Going from being... Well, so, I mean, you really are living in interesting times in the Chinese proverb sort of way. To be trying to do something open source under a name that is known for being quite the opposite. That is a whole other set of challenges. How much control do you have over this? Or does Microsoft pretty much control what the websites look like? Wow, there's like a flock of you? I got to say five years ago I wouldn't have thought that the whole back row of my Linux con talk was Microsoft employees. We don't have 30 Red Hatters here, do we? Maybe. Yeah, we might. Very interesting times. Going with that again. So, all right. So, since you want new people, how do I help you out? Do you want new users or new contributors? You have no contributors, do you? You have yourselves? Yeah? So you want new contributors? I feel really old and blind right now. So what I'm looking to see, Mac OS has two words, Mac capitalized. I'll do them a favor, too. And actually, it's OSX, right? Wouldn't that be the appropriate term? What's that? All right. OK, well, hey, I'm a Linux user at a Linux conference. Sorry for not using the right Mac words. So if what you want is new contributors who don't recognize that this is truly open source now, you need to be addressing them up top. Like that needs to be that giant banner at the top. Like in nicer words, hey, not what you thought we were, come help us out. We want your contributions. Well, so what I'm thinking that, so I agree with you because I saw the kitty and I'm like, oh, well, that's interesting. But then I think my next thought would be, does Microsoft actually want my contribution? Oh, I wasn't asking for an answer. I was expressing what my next thought would be as your potential developer. And that's a whole other problem that a simple sentence on a website can't address. And that's what you're doing here, presumably. And at all the other 47 conferences I've seen you out for the last two years is trying to express that it's a whole new world and we would like you to join our party. Also, that banner moves really fast. Now that I say that, it seems really slow. Did I slow it down with my mind? So let's see. Is all the documentation within it? Or is there documentation on here? You guys kind of might be doing all right. What do we have in our community? What do the announcements look like? Is there an announcement from within the last year? Because that's another thing I see a lot is here's our news page and there's one item from three years ago which makes me question whether your project is actually still active. I didn't mention one of my favorite examples of the worst documentation I've ever seen. I found a project. I knew it did what I wanted it to do. Like I knew it was what I wanted to be. And so despite a terrible website, I had crossed the hurdle of downloading it and installing it. And then I went to try to figure out how to use it and discovered that what they had handily labeled documentation, which is a word that means things, was the history of the project which tells me absolutely nothing about how to use it. So yeah, you guys announce things all the time. It's Tuesday. Make an announcement. What happens if I submit feedback? Will you actually talk to me? Yeah? So you guys are like paid to do useful things. How nice. He said what does gallery mean in this context? Is gallery only meaningful in this context if I already know everything about PowerShell? And there's also probably a question here of who is coming to this web page and why. And there's a good chance that there are already people who know about PowerShell. Like somebody probably didn't Google, helps me open source with this problem and land here. They probably want to know what's new with PowerShell or somebody has said, I hear they're doing something open sourcing and they want to know when they get here. I feel like you guys have a whole other problem set. Does anybody else have comments? It's like your own personal focus group. Oh my gosh. Well, yeah, this seems like a really good start. And I know you guys have been doing the open source conference circuit for a while because everywhere I go, there's Microsoft Booth. Last year's Linux Con Booth with the PigSply background. I like that one. For those of you who weren't here at the Microsoft Booth, the entire backdrop was a silhouette of a flying pig and it said something like, and other things you never thought you'd see for Microsoft. I mean, so particularly as a very long time Red Hat employee and honestly not so much of Windows user in like a decade plus, you guys are getting kind of impressive with your efforts. I was telling someone earlier today, now we're just going to ramble about Microsoft. I was telling someone earlier today. A few years ago, I was at about probably five years ago. I was at a conference and I went to a talk from someone who was working on open source at Microsoft and I went to get the spelling of his name right so I could write about it on opensource.com and he said, please don't do that. We can't talk about this on the internet. And I was like, oh. And so in comparison, what's happening now, it seems like a really different world. I don't know what it's like internally, but the external view is you guys are doing some A plus marketing efforts. That's fine. Did you know that the talk I did before this was Raspberry Pi? I haven't actually installed Windows on the Pi. Sorry guys. However, Fedora does work natively on the Pi 3 now. Does anybody else want to talk about their projects? I feel like the amount of help that I can offer Microsoft is limited. I'm sorry. Yes, Rich, you're going to make me look like I already do. Please don't make your text stretch all the way across the page. Eyeballs can't read that far. No, it's again back to usability. This is a very basic usability thing. It's exhausting to read all the way across the screen like that. That's why you see so many websites have narrow channels for their main text because this is really hard to read. That doesn't mean they're the Bible for web design. Jacob Nielsen, who is a well-known web design person, would be very proud of your simplicity. However, Jacob Nielsen is not also what I would call 2016 current. It is a particular school of web design, which is very excited about simplicity. So I haven't been to this one lately. The Apache Project site, it's actually really easy to find out how to contribute. Although, to be fair, then I did go into the how do I contribute and what can I help with. And then that was the thing I asked you about, is this still current? And you're like, I don't know. So current information about how to help a project is a really good way to go. So you're right. So if I end up on this page, there is a good chance that I already know what Apache is. Or I have landed on one of those web pages that said somebody didn't set up the website. And I've tried to figure out what's going on instead of emailing Fedora. So this happens a lot. People will see the Fedora one. They will email Webmaster at Fedora for some reason. Like, we can help you with your Apache problems. We have five more minutes. Well, so I don't think that you can, I don't think on Tuesday you can completely replace this with something that looks really slick and expensive. Because then everybody's going to know where the money came from. Which is a whole other problem. Right. But that's why when you see a company change its logo, in fact, a really good study to look up is look at how the MasterCard logo has changed over the years. And you probably don't even realize how much the MasterCard logo has changed over the last 40 or 50 or 60 years. Because they're very subtle changes. So that you still know that it's the right place. You don't think that the URL has been hijacked. You still know that it's MasterCard or Apache. But it's better. And navigation. Like I feel like people expect top bar navigation now with like basic what I need. And you have the 1998 style sidebar navigation. But documentation is helpful. How do I get help is helpful. Get involved. Like they're all the right words. Like I think maybe what you really need is just a redesign, not like you have all the right stuff. It's just kind of 1998. Two questions. OK, way at the back. OK, do you have a question about Apache before I pull hers up? OK, I'm going to need you to spell that again. Like really loudly. Oh, Linux Foundation. Oh, well then. You guys are giving me like the advanced class today, aren't you? So what do you want out of this website? Because this isn't a code project. Like it's not the basic I need users and contributors and things like that. What do you want out of it? Can you come like five rows closer? Or maybe I need to get five years younger. It would never occur to me to come to this site to look for the kernel. Is that a thing people do? This is not where I would have started looking for the kernel. So I mean, obviously I've been to the Linux Foundation site a thousand billion times. And I think it does most of those things pretty effectively. So if I was going to do a redesign of this, the first thing I would look at is that massive banner ad taking up a lot of useful space. Not banner ad, but there was a time period in the early 2000s where that was really trendy. But it takes up all this useful real estate where you could be, so you could have users, developers, and pros, like those are your three audiences, right? If I click on those, it's going to be the information for whichever one of those I am. I bet on some screens that's below the fold. I can't even see that. And then these are news blobs. I have never been a fan of this design. This is a personal opinion. And I feel like this got really trendy in blogs for a while to do just these blocks. And it doesn't flow. Like what am I supposed to read next? Where is the thing that I'm looking for? I have no idea. But I like this. I like this like you are a whatever. Click here for more of what you need. So let's see, I'm a user. Oh, you know what? That's a good question, Rich. What makes me a pro? Why would I click that? What is the difference between a pro and either a user? I could be a pro user or a pro developer. What makes me a pro? Should that be open source companies? Is that really what that means? I get that, yeah. But I can also see reading across that's trying to figure out what I click and going, well, I get paid to be a developer. Does that make me a pro? So I think he's asking, do you have metrics on who's clicking what and how long did they stay? Which is obviously a thing that web developers do. And when you get really fancy, which you guys probably could totally do, you can do the whole eyeball tracking kind of study about what people see first and then what they click. Actual data that is far more useful than anything. I could just give you my opinion about this website. What's up, Karen? I think you're one and back in line. I think this guy had another one. Does anybody have more comments about the Linux Foundation site? So what did you have? I need that again. That may depend on who your users are and what they want. So, and the reason I don't just simply say no bad is because there are lots of tools that I don't like that somebody somewhere likes. And so if all of your people like that, then maybe that is the right answer. This is why I like the focus group plan. All right, we have one minute left and anybody have burning questions and needs, Karen. I'll just talk to you. We can do it in the 60 second edition. Do this one's hard, because I already know what, I am the opposite of the user that you should be surveying because I already know, you know, I'm like the person who made the code and knows what it should say. Not that I made this, but like I know what it does. Yeah, that nav type is itty bitty. Should we do the zoom and enhance? I did it like the last three times and you didn't give me credit for it. I like that the first sentence like straight up tells me what outreach is. I wonder if, yeah, like just straight up that sentence all by itself. And the top nav has the basic like who you need and what they want and the only thing I wonder if I would include is the previous name. Like if I come to the site wondering is that the same thing that used to be, which also would be useful for people googling, not knowing that Outreachy is the new name. SEO, yet another thing, it could be a whole semester long class. All right, I think that is our 60 second edition. Thank you for coming. Thank you.