 It's time for the Lawn Jean Chronoscope, a television journal of the important issues of the hour brought to you every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, a presentation of the Lawn Jean Wittner Watch Company, maker of Lawn Jean, the world's most honored watch, and Wittner, distinguished companion to the world-honored Lawn Jean. Good evening. This is Frank Knight. May I introduce our co-editors for this edition of the Lawn Jean Chronoscope? Larry Lusser from the CBS television news staff and John B. Oakes from the editorial board of the New York Times. Our distinguished guest for this evening is Dr. Samuel Brownell, United States Commissioner of Education. We do a lot of talking these days about China, Indochina, Formosa, and the re-arming of Germany. But our biggest problem is right here at home. Thirty and a half million of our children are entering public schools this year. A million and a half more than last year. But we haven't got enough schools, and we haven't got enough teachers. Dr. Brownell, we give a lot of lip service to education in this country, but are we actually giving our children a square deal now? I'm afraid the answer is that there are a great many of them. We're not giving a square deal to. There are many of them, of course, that we are. But unfortunately, there's an increasing number that we're not giving a square deal to because of the overcrowded conditions and lack of facilities that you've mentioned. Well, Dr. Brownell, I understand there's a shortage of 125,000 qualified teachers this year. Now, what are we doing to try to fill up that gap? Many things, Mr. Lussard. Of course, temporarily, what's happening is that in many school districts, they're taking teachers that are not fully qualified. Many of them are able and doing a fair job. Some of them are, frankly, just keeping school. That's about all they can do. In many communities, their children are on half-day session, and unfortunately, in some areas, they have three shifts a day. But there are many efforts that are being made to induce more people to go into teaching and to provide better facilities for teacher education, all of which are beginning to bear fruit, but not as fast as the fruit of the oncoming children. We're having more children come into schools more rapidly than we're having people prepare to teach. And Dr. Brownell, to what do you ascribe the shortage of teachers? There are a number of things that make this difference. The shortage of teachers, one is that the length of the average teaching life of a teacher is about 10 years. If we could get teachers on the average to stay in teaching longer, in other words, if we didn't lose so many of them who start in teaching and don't stay very long, that would help a great deal. So we need to make teaching more attractive to those that are in teaching so they don't leave. The second thing is that we're at the trough of the available age people to go into teaching, just the same as we're short in scientists and nurses and many others. We have a shortage of people because the people in that age group are a smaller number than we used to have and that we're going to have. So as we get more in that age group, we'll have more people available for teaching. Isn't it true that there are fewer teachers this year because almost 75,000 of them have quit and taken better jobs? It isn't all that they've quit to take better jobs. We've had those that are retired, we've had those that have left teaching because they've started a family, we've had those that have left teaching because they've taken better jobs. All of those things enter into the picture. Has the profession become any less attractive than it used to be because of the various furors in parts of the country over teachers' owes, over textbook purges, over the loyalty of teachers generally? Has that helped to make the business of teaching less attractive? I don't think that's been particularly effective in the elementary school and that's where our greatest shortage is. I think that likewise that elementary teaching is more attractive now than it was several years ago. And I anticipate that we will have more elementary teachers, but you can't just get a trained teacher overnight. Part of it is our job of recruiting more young people to prepare for teaching. Does low salaries have anything to do with it? It's had something to do with it and again I think that a lot of young people don't realize the improvement that there's been in the salaries of teachers which do make teaching more attractive than it has been. Of course there's another thing that the load of our elementary teachers is very heavy and as we have this increased number of children in overcrowded classrooms, half-day sessions, it makes teaching less attractive so that it's one of those circular things that we need to improve the conditions in order to get more teachers and we need to get more teachers in order to improve the conditions. Well, Dr. Barnel, unlike defense will say or farm crops, this is actually a predictable thing, isn't it? We know that the population growth in this country is going to mean that our school children's attendance is going to reach a peak about 1960. Now, what are we actually doing to provide more schools and more teachers? Well, I can say this that as far as schools are concerned, we have $196 million more of school construction the first seven months of this year than we had a year ago. Now, that indicates that the people in the communities are actually doing something about providing school buildings. Whether that's fast enough or not, I'm not quite sure. But the increased interest on the part of citizens to do that, we also have higher salaries in many places. Teachers again, I mean the people again are trying to make teaching more attractive. But when you say there's to be a peak in enrollment in 1960, I'm sorry to say that that isn't necessarily true. We can predict up to 1960, but actually the number of children born last year was higher than the previous year and it appears we're going to have more this year born than we had last year. And in 1960s, we know that the group of this increased group of young people that were born in the 20s will be starting to have families so that the idea of our moving up to a peak and then having less of a school problem is certainly not inside at the present time. In view of this problem, sir, and the burden on local communities, what is your opinion of federal assistance to education? Well, that's a big question because there are all sorts of things that are called federal assistance to education. I'd point this out, that it costs just as much to educate our children whether we do it by local taxes, state taxes, or federal taxes, or some combination. There is no magic in costing less money if we get the money from federal sources. Now, the people in this country are the ones who will decide how they want to finance their schools, whether by the present state and local plan, or whether they want to add some federal funds either for school buildings or for school construction. It's up for them to decide. Dr. Brownell, since your brother is fighting internal communism as attorney general in this country, isn't there just a possibility that we're encouraging communism to a certain extent in our schools by paying our teachers such low wages? Well, I think that's a very good point. I'm not sure that we're encouraging communism by low salaries of teachers any more than we encourage communism wherever we have a low standard of living. But certainly the fact that we would have teachers who didn't have an adequate salary would make them less enthusiastic about their feeling that conditions are all that they ought to be than as if they had reasonable conditions of living under existing society regulations. And so I think that it's your points well taken that one safeguard against bad attitudes toward social conditions and our present government is always to have a group of teachers who themselves see the advantage of the kind of society in which we live. In connection with that communist question, what's your opinion, Dr. Brownell, of teachers' oaths? Well, I've stated in my position on that a number of occasions. I've taken oaths both as a teacher and in my present job and when I went into the army. And I have no objection to taking an oath to support the Constitution and the government. I think that that's an opportunity for me to show where I stand. On the other hand, I have no faith in oaths because I think that anyone who would be a traitor to the government would have no objection to taking an oath. So I think that there's a false sense of security that goes in and assuming that by taking an oath, you have a person who's any more loyal than otherwise. And Dr. Brownell, what would you say the biggest problem in education was these days? Is it the shortage of teachers in schools or is it this problem, this new problem of ending segregation in our? Well, I think in certain parts of the country, certain states, probably the biggest problem that they face centers around the problems that they face in connection with what they should do where they've had a segregated school system. But that's only, that's less than half of the state. So if you're to say, from the national point of view, what's the biggest problem, I wouldn't put segregation as the questions surrounding segregation or desegregation as the biggest national problem. I think it varies from state to state and the question as to what will be done as far as segregation is essentially a problem that each state has to face. In other words, it's a sectional problem. Well, would you say then that a crash program such as we employ on building weapons of war would be a good thing to employ now in order to build more schools? Well, that's an interesting idea. I think that many of us would feel that if we could get all of our schools taken care of quickly, that would be a fine thing. But I'm not sure that that's in line with another very important thing, which is community and local responsibility for their schools. The government does aid, though, in school programs. It does, for those areas that have some special federal installation, but not to schools generally. Well, Dr. Brown-All, the average person can't do very much about influencing, we'll say, our foreign policy, but can the average parent do anything about influencing the education of our children? Indeed, he can. The responsibility for our schools is local, and everyone can be effective in our local school systems. We have 8,000 citizen groups that are involved in that now as compared with about 1,000 in 1950. That shows the spectacular growth of citizen interest and participation in school affairs. Thank you very much, Dr. Samuel Brown-All. It's a great pleasure to listen to you tonight. Thank you. The opinions expressed on the Laun Jean Chronoscope were those of the speakers. The editorial board for this edition of the Laun Jean Chronoscope was Larry Lisser and John B. Oaks. Our distinguished guest was Dr. Samuel Brown-All, United States Commissioner of Education. 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