 Welcome back to the breakfast on Plus TV Africa. Our first big conversation this morning is about the reported arrest of Sunday Adeyma, also known as Sunday Ibuhu. The news says Sunday was arrested in an airport in Kutunu while trying to jet off to Germany, the country where he's a citizen. We've invited Mr Femi Larson to help us discuss the facts. Good morning, Mr Larson. Mr Larson, can you hear us? Clearly. Fantastic. Thank you for joining us this morning. First things first, what's your reaction to the arrest of Sunday Adeyma? It came not at a surprise because the Nigerian government has been on demand for to Sunday Adeyma, openly called Sunday Ibuhu, since the last invasion of his residence by operatives of the Department of State Service a few weeks ago. So it is understandable that the Nigerian government would have been doing everything possible to get him arrested. And we should also understand that the Nigerian government in the recent time has shown some proactiveness when it comes to arresting people, especially outside the shores of this country. More than they seem to be able to do within the country. So it's not a surprise. Okay, so there is a little bit of controversy over extraditing him to Nigeria or not and also trying to figure out how the arrest happened, the role of the security agencies over there and of course here in Nigeria. How important are these details in this whole conversation? It is important and I think it may not have been shared as of now because of the national security implication it may have for the country in the Republic, especially when you look at the tendency for others who may be on the list of government not only in Nigeria but other countries for political reasons. So it has a lot of implication not just on the, not just on our country Nigeria but also on the country where he has been arrested. Just remember the last time the leader of the IPOB was arrested in Kenya and this has been generating a lot of diplomatic issues as we speak. So I know that this is also going to raise some concern from the diplomatic circle and of course individuals across the globe who may see that country as a place where they may not be able to pass through again, even when they are on that genuine victimization by authorities of their country. So it has a lot in my view. Now Adeyma's lawyer, his name is Ymmi Aliou. He argued that there's an extradition treaty of 1984 that's between Togo, the Republic of Nigeria and Ghana and that that extradition treaty doesn't include political fugitives which Sunday Adeyma seems to be right now. So how then would you assess the role or assess the role of the Republic in the arrest of Sunday Adeyma? You can be rest assured that the Nigerian government would not define Sunday Adeyma as a political fugitive. The truth is that they have criminalized every of his agitation. They have given an impression that is being wanted for criminal purposes and you must understand that no authority, especially that of Nigeria would assert that it is politically victimizing people just like we clearly understand it is doing. So the request may not be based on the agreement as existed and another thing you must understand is the dependence of that country economically. I see where Mr Lawson was headed. He was just talking about a possible economic dependence on maybe Nigeria and how the way Nigeria is seen in the African context and how they might not want to be on Nigeria's bad side. But I really was going to ask him about what exactly would be the designation of Sunday Adeyma in this case if he is saying Sunday Adeyma is not a political fugitive and so he does or rather Ben and Republic is not obligated to keep him in the country. But also this Sunday Adeyma's lawyer like I mentioned quoted article 20 of this extradition treaty saying article 20 of the charter basically states that signatories should allow self agitation. Agitation for self determination is a fundamental right that is protected. So if we don't want to call him a political fugitive we know that Sunday Adeyma has been agitated for the Euroban nation and it's a session of basically an independent Euroban nation out of Nigeria. So if we say it's not a political fugitive does this apply? Well I think the Nigerian government may have also looked through some of all those things and can easily change the charge against him. You know you can wake up tomorrow morning and you know place a different charge entirely. Exactly but then that would really now bother that would now bother on sincerity. What exactly is the fact? Because remember that when the DSS raided Sunday Bowls house in you know earlier in July they said that the raid was because of illegal possession of firearms and they went on to list a whole you know cash of arms that they had found in this place to kill two people allegedly because they saw the blood on the floor and all of that. So really was it because Adeyma had a stash of arms in his house or because of his agitation for Euroban nation. So we need to if we're saying the federal government can simply just change the charge. What is the sincerity there? But good to know we have Mr Lawson back. Mr Lawson thank you for joining us. The pleasure. So yes please continue with your thoughts and I also want to first of all you were talking about what exactly is the stance of the Republic regarding the extradition. Also you mentioned that Sunday Adeyma could not be seen or could should not be regarded as a political fugitive. But we can understand that one of the reasons why you know there seems to be a spotlight on him from the federal government is because he's been agitated for a Euroban nation. Isn't that right? You are correct. You are correct. But you must understand the position of Nigerian government on this agitation by Sunday and some other actors within the country as we speak. Another thing I listen to you and another thing I think we must be realistic about is the posture of the Cuban regime in Nigeria to rule of law. This government does not so much believe or does not so much obey even laws that are made by the administration. So to assume that the government will pass through the rules of legitimacy or how it should have been done to me will be an illusion. This government did the same by going to care to bundle somebody who was carrying a British passport who God knows whether it increased to Abudia a few weeks ago. So we cannot assume that this government would go by the dictates just like you said of the extradition treaty. Correctly existing between Nigeria, Ghana, Tugu and the Republic. But let us forward and see if the country better would not act ignorant of what is happening in Nigeria and the basis of what is contained in our agreement. Do the right thing by treating Sunday as a political fidgeting. All right, there's also been statements made with regards the influence of or the possible influence of for much of the family staff took over a tie in all of this. There's been those conversations and I also want you to speak on those who have said, you know, if it's so easy for the government to pick up people that day, you know, as a term or see as fugitives outside Nigeria even. Why is it so hard to end banditry and arrest terrorists in Nigeria who have shot down fighter jets who have killed thousands of Nigerians and who currently control some territory reportedly? Thank you. Let me pick it from where you stop. You see, for those who are celebrating some of these recent feet of the federal government, the arrest of the IPOB leader and now the intersection of a Sunday boo in the Republic. I want to say that it should even be a moment for us to be ashamed as Nigerians that our government, you know, could have enough commitment. You know, having no will to get people arrested even in far away Kenya, far away in the Republic, but few kilometers away, even from the seat of power in Abuja, terrorists are operating during the day. Only few days ago, a fighter jet of the Nigerian Air Force was brought down by people who were merely described as cultural slas and bandits. It tells you that, and this is what I have exposed the federal government on the reality of its not been practicing in tackling insurgency within the country. I would not want to believe that these terrorists, who I don't call bandits, who have continued to terrorize, and clearly the people of the North West as you speak, are invisible to the extent that we have seen, you know, a cleric going to meet them. We have seen people reporting how they move in hundreds. We have seen these characters going to school to conduct mass abduction of students, and the government will keep saying it is not powerful enough, just as it is, to get people who are, you know, operating, but who are agitated for self-determination rather, but you know, who could not get people who are terrorizing the country from within. It really exposes the insurgency of the government, and I think for people who also think the person of the former chief of army staff to Benet Republic might have had the role to play in this, I think it is not totally out of place because the ambassador represents the president of Nigeria in that country, and there must be diplomatic cooperation. It must be entrusted in one or two Nigerians within that country, and if a Nigerian has come in and is on the watch list of his country, I know he must have been contacted before the authorities of that country took that decision. Okay, on the punch these papers this morning, it was reported that former United States governor Rashidi Ladoja has asked the federal government to grant amnesty to European nation agitator Son Dia de Amor. Here's a quote from him. Ladoja said, the federal government has declared amnesty for Boko Ram, and they should declare amnesty for Igboho and the hyper-leader. Do you agree with him, and is there any likelihood of this ever happening in the country? It is not impossible, but this government is not willing, and I can say that this government will not. This is a government that treats people, particularly from some regions of the country, as not being entitled to something it is doing. Especially when you talk about respecting the rights of the people to demand. See, self-determination to start with is what the people have rights to demand for. It is not left for the states or the authorities to analyse this and see if it's truly the collective aspiration of these people. I'm a Yoruba man. I am not a supporter of any call for the disintegration of Nigeria. As far as I'm concerned, it is best for us to restructure this country than to break it away. So some of us are not even sympathetic to those who think it is time to split the country. That nonetheless, we must respect that people have rights to make such demands. It is an internationally recognised right for people to demand for self-determination, and the government of Nigeria should not criminalise this. It is better for government to sit and engage these people rather than declaring war on them in the way the government has been doing. And if we continue to declare war on people like Sunday Gold, when I have the canals in Nigeria, we must be ready to receive or to witness the emergence of more such characters. If we don't embrace the culture of dialogue and discuss with our people whenever they have reasons to agitate, we must not criminalise the right of people to express themselves. Especially when such is being done peacefully. I also want to go back and talk about, if you can, the actual Daishan perspective. Of course, his representatives will continue to fight that and hope that that doesn't happen. There's also, I've seen a few reports that suggest that he may have been released already over there. So what is the chance, from what you stated earlier, based on the relationship between Nigeria and the Republic, what is the chance that his extradition to Nigeria can be stopped? Well, it's purely diplomatic issue, and unfortunately, it is happening in the country, like I said earlier, that has a lot of ties with Nigeria, especially when you look at the count of their country. It means spell positivity for democracy and the right of the people to make demands from government without unnecessarily being harassed. If the government of Guinea would do the right thing by releasing so they go. But I also think that the influence and the fact that Nigeria government would never, as Greek, that someday we will be able to go fidgeting, but rather make their demand, you know, haven't already paraded him, behind him as a criminal, and somebody legally possessing firearms and all sorts of charges that are already being prepared by the Nigerian government. I don't think the Nigerian government will succumb. I'm still going to be following up, you know, and seeing if there is confirmation on these reports that he has been released by the government in the Republic. But I also want you to react to the conversation concerning the possible friction between the north and the west, you know, with regards to Sunday Goals arrest. Do you think that that is possible? Do you think that it might, you know, lead to a break in the relationship between the north and northern leaders and, of course, the south west? No, you see, if you look at this country in the last couple of years, you realize that we have been more fragmented, we have been more divided than it has ever been, especially in the last couple of years. So to me, I don't see even any sincere unity existing between the north and south today in Nigeria. Today, we now have, you know, southern governors coming to speak as a body, you know, making demands as southerners not any longer as used to be even despite, you know, glaring political party differences. It turns to that there is a lot of division already. The people are divided along not just not south, but also along their religious and other bias. And it is because the government has not been doing enough to promote national cohesion and unity. And this recent happening will further, you know, divide not just leaders of the north and south, but even the ordinary people. There are nine Nigerians from the north and south if not well properly managed. If it's not well managed, if this government does not begin to immediately engage citizens in conversations that promote unity, not by mere, you know, threat or harassment of people who make demands, I think we may just be at the starting point of what the future holds for this country. Yes, indeed. What we need there are calls for unity. Well, Mr Fermil Ossin, can you draw any parallels between this case of Sunday at the MW at Nnamdi Canw, regarding the modus operandi of the government's raid on their houses and arrest out of the country? There are a lot of dissimilarities so much. And, you see, we have to be sincere. Like I said, I am not a pro secessionist element, but the truth is that since we have all witnessed how the Sunday ball group have held rallies in Odo, in Iqiti, in Osho, in other places before the last one that was disrupted in Lagos by the state, if people gather together, call it any name, call it any reason, and peacefully conduct themselves without burying them, without, you know, embarking on violence against anybody, being citizens or properties of the state, I don't think there's any justification for government to tag such persons as terrorists and declare war on them, like the Nigerian government did, by invading the house of the IPOB leader then, making it a template for him to have escaped, to have jumped back, because that invasion was all warranted. And the same thing has happened now to Sunday ball, so it looks so much like it is the approach that this government best understands. The use of force in the democracy, and this will further create tension. This will further create such characters that are deviant and are ready to resist the artists of the Nigerian government, and I don't think we need that now as a country. All right. Mr Ffami Lawson, I want us to go back in time and make comparisons between where we're coming from as a nation and where we are now. When we cast our minds to as far back as the 1940s when the activist, the educationist, Ffami Llyw, and Nicola Cucuti would organise rallies with the Abercota Women's Union back then, and they received lots of opposition from the government. They began to term it as picnics and festivals to gather women together, to protest against taxes on women and market women. But we still saw the heavy handedness of the government on those women. Move back and fast forward to the year 2021, and we're still seeing the same thing. Would you say then that it doesn't seem that the Nigerian government has made any improvements regarding how it relates with the people that it's claims to serve? You see, one thing that the government in Nigeria lacks, every of the successive regime that has come to this country have not fully realised that the sovereignty of this nation is not in the hand of the government. It is in the hand of the people. They try to run this country as a private estate, as a personal businesses, at the detriment of those who have actually chosen them, or would they sometimes choose themselves to represent. And it is a terrible impression that we have created in the mind of generation after generation that as Nigerians it is criminal for you to speak against government. It is criminal for you to protest against government. Where in the real sense of it, it is within the rights. Even constitutionally granted for citizens to express themselves. The freedom of expression is not a gift. It is not subjected to the wish or aspiration of any government. It is given to the citizens by the constitution. Successive administration have continued to overlook that provision of the constitution. They have continued to overlook that power given to the people by the constitution because of their desperation to always protect their regime. And that is what is still happening today. Unlike other democracies all over the world, even in the worst of circumstances, protests are not criminalized. Citizens have right to protest for as long as they want and as long as such does not come finally. If you see government in the western countries bringing out the police or the military into situations that are normally supposed to be civil, you must not go to a point where violence and cretin and state properties are becoming threatened. But if you don't have that, people can sleep streets or occupy the streets for days without anybody harassing them. Unlike in this country where even two or three cannot gather, there is no place of having a mass of people making demand. Let's go back to something you had earlier mentioned. What story do you think this would tell of the current administration if, by 2023 and even further, we are still not able to point out bandit leaders? If you remember not long ago, there was a video of a bandit who had claimed and boasted of killing Nigerian soldiers. That video, of course, went viral. There's still no report of him being arrested. Do you think the current administration is bothered of what that paints of it in the time that they've been in power? Well, at first, I'm concerned. I don't think this administration is in any way interested in posterity. I don't think this administration is interested in how it is going to be judged after the eighth year of the current president, President Mohammad Bwari, because if you look at the democratic credentials of this administration, if you look at the assessment that local international institutions have about this administration, you will understand that it has come to a set its failure, as far as an observance of human rights, as far as its commitment to the life and properties of Nigerians are concerned. We should have seen more seriousness on the part of this regime if it is truly committed to the protection of the lives and properties of Nigerians more than we are witnessing. It is really worrisome that the country keeps moving on, as if nothing is happening, even when the most horrible are happening. Let me tell you, just two days ago, 13 policemen were killed by these terrorists in Zafara State and who kept moving on as if all is well, not even at the police headquarters. It's our flag flying at half-mast for 13 policemen to have been killed by terrorists in a day. You know what it means for an American policeman or an European policeman to be killed in a single oppression. 13 of our soldiers are being killed every day by these criminals, and the government still think it is not enough to declare total war on them. That is why I say I don't think this government is interested in posterity. Does this also, now you are speaking of posterity, does this do any damage to, I've seen statements from certain persons claiming that Fulanese and the North seem to always be attacked here and there. Of course their statements weren't, a lot of people didn't agree with their statements, but does this do any damage to the credibility of the North and the Fulanese after this current administration? No, it will do more damage to the credibility of the operatives of this government. You see, when you talk about the North, today a lot of Northerners are victims of what we are talking about in this country today. I have friends across the North, I have friends of over 20 years who are Fulanese, I have friends who are Kanuris, I have friends who are Haussars, all over the North, and I can tell you that a lot of them are now victims. Only 48 hours ago, one of my friends, travelling between Bwshua and Sokotu, was attacked and he lost a lot to that attack. So we are all victims as Nigerians. The Northerners are also victims of what is happening. And that is why I say, if you tell more on everybody, especially those from that region of the country, that have participated in what is happening, that have been involved in how this government has been like a desica about tackling issues that has now become a threat, not only to us in the South, but even more to people in the West region. I have not been ravaged by these criminal elements and the government keeps watching. A final question from me, Mr Lawson. Adiemo's legal team and some Nigerians in diaspora have been calling on the German government to intervene and make sure that Sunday Adiemo is not extradited from Kotonu. Seeing that Adiemo is a German citizen and his wife as well, what is the likelihood of intervention by the German government, as we have seen in the case of Annambi Canw, where the UK has offered consular assistance? It is possible, provided it is not just a resident, but a citizen of that country. I am sure there will be interface between the government of Germany and the government of the country where it has been held, since it is not Nigeria, where the government can hold on to you for obvious reasons. But that will greatly rely, like I said, on its citizenship and its swiftness in taking such steps. Remember it has been reviewed that Mr Adiemo was arrested even while flying on a British passport. You understand? It means, as far as this government is concerned, it is ready to take any short court to achieve its aim, as long as arresting those whom it has seen, as any means are concerned. Femi Lawson, thank you so much for your time this morning. Thanks for speaking with us. Thank you. I wish you a great day ahead. All right, stay with us here on the breakfast. Our next conversation is moving to Mali, where there was an assassination attempt at the current interim leader. We'll get into that conversation next with our international correspondent and analyst, Imor Edith, who will be joining us.