 Welcome everybody to Nemo's Digital European Museum Conference. We are starting now with the panel Complexity, Comprehensibility and Credibility. But before we start, I would like to give you a quick introduction to our netiquette short technical overview. I'm Julia Parkel. I'm the Secretary General of Nemo and I'm very happy to introduce this panel to you. Just a quick run through the technical issues. Your camera will always be turned off. The panelists are visible. During the Q&A we ask you to please write your questions in the chat. You can also get our attention by raising your hand virtually. The conference presentation and the Q&As are going to be recorded and we'll publish them after the conference. If you have any questions, we will collect your questions and the colleague will deliver them to Alexandra, who I would like to give the floor to now, the moderator of our session, Alexandra Bunia, who is Professor of Museology at the University of the Aegean in Greece. She's also Secretary of the Board of the International Committee of ICOM on Contemporary Collecting. Alexandra, over to you. Thank you very much, Nemo. It's a great pleasure and a great honor for me to be here today and to moderate this session. We have two amazing speakers and we're going to have a very interesting discussion at the end of it, I'm sure. What I'm going to do today is that I'm going to give a very brief presentation. I promise it will be very brief. And then I'm going to introduce our two wonderful speakers and give the floor to them. Please write your questions after the presentations. We are going to have a Q&A session and I'm sure that we will have the opportunity to have some really wonderful questions and some really wonderful answers. So let me just start with a very, very brief, as I promised, introduction. I will start the session today by sharing the obvious. We live in a highly complex world. When comprehension of what is happening around us is getting harder and harder every day and credibility seems to be much in demand in the public sphere in general. The challenges around us, around our societies, are numerous. We communicate with each other today through a screen. As a pandemic has put the whole planet on an unseen before lockdown of one type or another at one point or another during the last eight months. We experience already the outcomes of global warming and climate change. Negotiating the past is as challenging as ever at a time when post-colonialism searches in vain for global justice and cultural wars are raging in some cases in newspaper headlines and social media accounts in others inside churches, synagogues, mosques and schools, or even in the middle of public squares. People need to fight every day, literally or metaphorically, to make sense of the world around them, to understand who they are, and to defend their rights to leave the way they want and to speak their truths, regardless of what others think. Have I become political? I think I have, but I also think that this is what museums have become as well, or this is what museums need to become as their role is shifting and being redefined amidst all the challenges that I just referred to. My argument, based in principle on the complexity theory, is not one that is concerned with simply identifying that there is a lot of stuff happening out there and museums need to deal with them. I want to argue that as museum professionals and academics, we need to start thinking in more complex ways about how social institutions, as museums are, need to redefine their roles, taking into account that they do not operate in isolation from the entirety of the expectations and demands that they are confronted by. The role of museums, their shifting functions, their political or neutral agendas, their external versus internal priorities, exogenous versus endogenous pressures are being debated in the museum world for a few years now. I think that this debate became even more intense in public since the summer of 2019, when a new definition of the museum was offered by ICUM Special Committee. Numerous lengthy discussions, heated debates, conferences, workshops and round table discussions have not managed to bridge the gap that apparently exists between those who support the primacy of the internal needs versus those who believe in the urgency of the external ones. However, is this a real binary? In my view, it is not. Museums are complex institutions in excrucibly connected to their societies. They cannot be defined or understood without them and outside them. Their internal functions are therefore deeply interconnected with all the challenges the world is currently facing. Societal inequalities, asymmetries of power, an alarming environmental crisis, threats to humanitarian values and democracy at large. Museums and cultural institutions in general need to develop different strategies that will enable them to tackle complexity, support people's understanding of what is happening around them and retain their role as credible sources of learning. This is an ethical responsibility, but also an important element of sustainability. Museums are sites of public consciousness. They are part of the dynamics of cultural change that intersect with both formal and informal spheres of political action. They have an ethical obligation to contribute to social justice issues, extend government policy priorities and protest against human rights abuses. They need to confront challenges and translate them for their communities, keeping them at the core of their work, being attentive to their community's needs, without being afraid of becoming political educators on their behalf. They are not neutral or safe spaces in the traditional use of the terms, but places where the past, the present and the future are constantly negotiated and renegotiated. They have to be brave spaces. The papers that will present it in this session will focus on two different strategies museums can use in order to tackle complexity, support comprehension and retain credibility. Storytelling as heritage interpretation, and the use of method driven approaches for the reconfiguration of the notion of content and participation in museums. We have two great speakers today with us. Dragana Lucia Radkovits Aydemir lives and works in Zagreb, Asia, but also in Istanbul and Chesme in Turkey. Dragana Lucia at the Earth Professional Steps and Waste and Ministry of Culture. In 2005 she jumped into adventurous entrepreneurial waters and founded a small niche company that connects culture and tourism. In Muses, as is a company's name, she works with her team, mainly in the field of heritage interpretation, museology, heritage management and sustainable cultural tourism. Receiving and sharing knowledge is her greatest passion. Working with local communities that gather to celebrate their heritage is her calling. Lucia is proud of her European diploma in cultural management, either she acquired in Brussels by the Marcel Hichter Von D. Esco Fellowship in Poland. She dedicates her free time to her volunteer work in European NGOs and she's delighted to be a member of the supervisory board of Interpret Europe and the president of Interpret Croatia. Our second great speaker is David Vinyad. David is a footerologist, design finger, game developer and the head of education and participation at the Futurium in Berlin. As a trainer and moderator of Future Science, he has assisted in numerous innovation and strategy processes. David has a passion for the development of new learning and interaction formats. In his work, he aims to make complex issues understandable, inspire people to tackle future challenges and create new forms of public debate. Let me give the floor to Dragana Lucia for the first presentation. Thank you. Thank you, Alexandra. Let me just share my presentation. Thank you a lot, Alexandra, for your introduction and thank you Nemo for inviting me and giving me a chance to share and give my share in Museums Making Science Conference, especially tackling the theme of complexity, comprehensibility and credibility. And thank you, Rieka. I hope we will all have the opportunity to cherish the work of the great team of the European Capital of Culture Rieka 2020. Unfortunately, 2020, the year that challenged every single human being on this planet. I would like to start my presentation with a quote from a media psychologist and a social scientist Pamela Rutledge. Stories are how we think. They are how we make meaning of life. Call them schemas, scripts, cognitive maps, mental models, metaphors or narratives. Stories are how we explain how things work, how we make decisions, how we pursued others, how we understand our place in the world, how we create identities and define and teach social values. In the time of a non-formal learning, heritage interpretation helps people learn about heritage and its universal values. Telling meaningful stories makes important part of a good heritage interpretation. By understanding the universal values of heritage, people are more open and ready to understand and cherish the values of the so-called other. In this way, heritage may become a universal platform for creating an inclusive and democratic society from the bottom up. In the context of heritage interpretation, storytelling helps us to reveal the human story behind the heritage phenomenon, the museum object or a museum collection. The human story in the interpretation of heritage helps to overcome the complexity of many heritage phenomena. Not only the complexity of specialist knowledge that is inside of that phenomenon, but also the complexity of the point of views, which was very well introduced by the Richard Sandels keynote speech. To look at the museums as places where human stories are collected and being told brings other dimension to our work. People visit museums to hear relevant stories and also stories that have credibility, stories that share values. Or vice versa, we create museums because we have stories that are important and relevant to be shared that help us to connect to each other and the others, understand each better and together give our share in building a more inclusive and tolerant society. Intangible heritage, especially after 2003 UNESCO convention, certainly represents a paradigm shift for the whole heritage sector. Because unlike material or tangible heritage, in its safe carving, we work less with tangible objects, but more with people who are the barriers. And by people, it's about all kinds of people. Here, the importance of listening to the human story behind the skill or practice of intangible cultural heritage becomes even more apparent. Human stories are the core, the heart of intangible cultural heritage. Let me introduce you to the UNESCO intangible cultural heritage of Becharats. It is the key to the identity of the people of Slavonia, a region in Croatia, but also to neighboring countries like even Hungary, Serbia and Bosnia and Herzegovina. It is a song, a companion by the orchestra composed of two lines in a Deca-Sylapica couplet form. Its form is the only strict part, firmly said part, but everything else is arbitrary. The range of topics or themes that this little song tells about, thinks about are endless. The word Becharats derives from the Turkish word beker, meaning bachelor. And the songs are sank about the various life situations of a young seducer or a bachelor, but also of the lady. So we don't have only a male singer, but we have also the woman singer. They are thinking about every kind of situations, life situations, including their family relations, money, political matters, sexual adventures and ventures, all kinds of stuff. It is brutally honest. It is full of life. It is accurate and it is direct. Some of the qualities of Becharats heritage are the absence of self-censorship and the vitality of this high-equityped micro-form to express all the challenges of human being a human. I always like to stress its cathartic therapeutic role as well, because somehow it helps to as a subtle tool to a kind of social control and order. Becharats is unavoidable at various social gatherings that follow human life from birth to death. It is performed throughout the year following agricultural work and religious festivals in traditional setting. But today Becharats is spread everywhere through social media, through YouTube channels. So Becharats is actually also present in a contemporary ways of communication. Few of the Becharats that I found out are actually tackling the accurate COVID situation. As you can see on the slide, the composition is really very simple. It is two lines, of course, it's deca-cilabic and at the same time joined by rhyme, so it forms a very strict rule. This one is du-cana na puni sanduke nebri niste samo peri ruke. Nei ce žena da mi pruži ruku samo noge na mekom jastuku. These are the examples. I'm sorry, I'm not really able to sing them, but they have always the music behind and the choir and type of Mandelina Stamburica. Usually at the beginning of the performance of that type of songs, the themes are more being benign in general, but as the socializing of people continues, regardless of schedule and environment, the themes become more provocative, more direct, and usually a duel develops between the performers. Sometimes the meanings are obvious, but sometimes they are hidden. By then, when this all gathering really starts to, let's say, vibrate in the same pulse, everybody is already immersed in it and actually had some kind of initiation. Various topics are not always pleasant to hear, not in line with the moral norms of communities that are in principle patriarchal and would be easily put in a drawer as conservative. So this short story I just shared with you about this heritage of Becharats actually takes us to the town of Pelternica. The main development goal of this community is the establishment of the Becharats Museum. This small town, one of many of its kind in Europe, with its surroundings has about 11300 inhabitants only and is located in the region of Slavonia in eastern Croatia. Although small, Pelternica is one of the most successful local governments in terms of withdrawing EU funds in Croatia. After Becharats was included on the UNESCO list of Intangible Cultural Heritage in 2011, this municipality decided in 2014 to protect the copyright to the Becharats Museum and set its establishment as one of the main development goals for the years to come. For them, the museum is the right umbrella to collect and share their stories. For us as heritage interpreters and museologists, listening and sharing stories was the main tool in Becharats Museum interpretation planning process. The format of participatory works or workshops helped us gather together key stakeholders and the barriers of the Becharats living heritage. Through semi-structured and open-ended interviews with people from the local community, we have established a close connection. Working in groups, people share their experiences, opinions, attitudes and stories. We facilitated the process and also shared our experiences with an emphasis on presenting our previous work with other communities so that we open that kind of exchange process. It was important at the very beginning of our work with this community to establish a partnership with the main stakeholders and in order to get a mandate and trust from them to continue work together on their community museum project. Some workshops conceived through the technique of mental maps which are completed by participants working together in small groups. They created maps of heritage narratives and interpretive themes. For us, they represented an important starting point and a kind of a database on which we have developed next phases of the museum development. The mapping process is always accompanied by very engaged discussions and opinions sharing. And what creates a special atmosphere during such meetings is the fact that the participants do not talk about some heritage and what they have learned about it, but they tell stories about their own experience of leaving their heritage. On the later stage of the interpretation planning, a questionnaire was created that contained questions related to individual thematic units or museum exhibits. We asked questions such as, would you be involved in the development of this exhibit as a storyteller or in some other way or should the storytellers be from Flatenica or elsewhere. To this last question, as many as 97% of the workshop participants answered that the storytellers should be from all over Slovenia region and elsewhere and not exclusively from their own town. Every gallery of the museum permanent exhibition has one strong theme. The theme of the welcoming gallery is Becharats It Is Us. You see here on the render the videos of the museum storytellers, the members of the community sharing their authentic stories about how they were initiated in the world of Becharats. Sorry about the joke. The photos of Dustin Hoffman and Vogue De Niro are here just as an example for visualization purposes of the rendering of the future gallery, but I'm sure that they would also perfectly fit into the Becharats community. One of the exhibits in the welcome gallery is dedicated to an important format with Becharats which is a dual. The performance of Becharats is often one of improvisation in word jesting between two lead singers. The lead singer, backed by his own or her own choir and orchestra, playfully responds to the provocation of the rival with the intention of defeating them, or him or she, with wit and speed of changing themes, which will make it difficult for the other side to upgrade and outwith the challenger. This interactive multimedia exhibit in a future museum gives the possibility for visitor to witness the dual with the performers that take turns, a woman to woman, a woman to a man, a man to a man. And this is also the moment visitor is initiated into the community of Becharats. He's somehow prepared to go forward. One of the highlights of the Museum of Becharats permanent exhibition is the unit where sexual, sexual songs are being interpreted. They're called greasy, or Masni Becharatsi. Here you see that we have designed a sort of protected space so that younger visitors are not exposed to explicit sexual content. We put 18 plus mark to communicate the age criteria for the visitor. When we were presenting the renders to the local community, majority of them voted for 16 plus. So we changed it. The phenomenon of sexually themed Becharats songs has a truly exceptional value. It was noticed and researched by a Croatian, Austrian, Jewish sexologist, ethnographer, folklorist, and Slavist Friedrich Salomon Kraus at the end of the 19th century. He was one of the first sexologist and was also a collaborator of Signal Freud. Sexuality in Becharats songs resists all taboos. And in these sexually explicit high equal stories, the protagonists are all included. And those songs are sung by women as well as by men. Maybe it is not just a coincidence that Slavonia except being abundant in Becharats heritage has also very strong rap scene in Croatia. Rap performance and Becharats performance have a lot in common. Improvising a strong social dimension, avoiding any self-censorship, provoking established patterns of behavior, insightful viewing, and commenting on everyday life. Towards the end of the permanent exhibition, this exhibit puts the performances of Slavonian Bechar and the rapper in a sort of a competition, a better duel that is slightly different from the duel we've met at the beginning. This time is an inter-genre competition, duel between tradition and contemporary performing forms. Who will win? Winner is actually not so important, but the stories and messages they transmit in their songs are. The final exhibit takes us into the future several centuries in advance and plays with a futuristic vision of the Becharats. Here Becharats is performed by artificial intelligence. Our colleagues from the IT team designers were especially happy because programming this exhibit is a yummy treat for them. The question is, does Becharats and its stories merit if there is no people? If there is no one who will be inspired by the story and if the story makes no connections between people, does the storytelling make sense at all? The same goes for heritage and museums. Do we all know the answer? And now, I would like to return to the quote from the beginning of this presentation that ends with stories defined and teach social values. In spite by the work of colleague Janet Blake, who highlighted the five values contained in intangible cultural heritage, I bring here five values that are worth keeping in mind when talking about heritage storytelling in the museums, community museums in particular, as a tool for museums making sense. Human rights, including cultural rights and cultural diversity, telling and hearing each other's stories, empathy and respect for the story of the other, participation as a procedural instrument, role of communities, empowering communities by the shared ownership of the museums, leaving heritage, recreating values and asking questions one after the other. That means to be alive. Thanks a lot for listening to this story and I hope it triggered and inspired many of your own stories. Thank you very much, Dragon and Lucia. I think that it has inspired people because I can see questions coming in. So I'm looking forward to the discussion after that. Let me now give the floor to David for the second presentation. David, the floor is yours. Okay. Thank you, Alexander for the introduction. 15 minutes about complexity and museum is lapsed. That's totally ambitious. I try my best to give you probably some ideas on how we work and how you can tackle this challenge. I work for Futurium, which is a new founded exhibition space based in Berlin. We opened September last year, right before Corona started happening and the idea of Futurium is to be a place where possible futures are presented, explored, tested and discussed and our aim is really to empower people to shape the future. And for that we have three main spaces, the main exhibit in the upper floor, a forum and a lab in the basement. Yeah, and the exhibit shows different future scenarios and is based around different projects that are showing how we can shape the future. In the forum, we have a big hall where we can do panel discussions, workshops, which we also rent out for science organizations, for example. And then we have the lab in the basement, which is the space for exploring, tinkering, having creative processes, we're showing different projects out of art and science. And this is basically the Futurium in a nutshell. So the question for today is museums as labs, how can this be possible? Because museums are normally associated with the past, showing what had happened and labs are about the future and creating the future. So how can that be? Probably a good way to start thinking about labs is to look at famous labs from the past. For example, the Bell Laboratories where they invented the Xemiconductors or the MIT Media Lab, which is, I don't know, probably the most sparkling place where new ideas from interaction design to robotics are happening today. And another example is probably IDEO, because they invented this technique known as design thinking, which takes the process from designer into many process also usability design, and which is quite useful if you are in the interaction or in the exhibit design world. So what are the ideas from labs? They have some common ideas, for example, they encourage creative thinking, encourage people to have original ideas, sharing, open culture, provoking spills. These are all criteria that make labs what they are. And yeah, how to say, how to facilitate this creative process. And yeah, one very basic idea from this labs, and this is a bit the theme for me today is they're creating complexity. So they open up new things, and then they have a very refined decision process. And so they open the idea space up and then closing it by enforcing decisions. Yeah, and how this can work also in a cultural museum context. So therefore I want to change some ideas with you. And the first thing, I think you need to go into this process is to have a certain mindset. And the mindset of Futurim is of course a little bit focused on future and future thinking, but future thinking is also a very important skill for labs in general, because it's always about the future and always about exploring new things. And I think this is very useful for all of you who thinking about establishing a lab or components in the museum. And the first very important idea is that the future is not fixed. It's basically open. So you can imagine it as a Kono's like like a lamp. In fact, it on the wall, the circle gets bigger every time you move a step backward and in future science you normally say you can make prognostics about the next two or three years, but then you're getting over to educated guests and then for the longer time spectrum, you are in the field of speculation. And this means one important thing for us. It means that we, when we talk about future, we're not talking about possible or probable futures, but mostly about preferable futures. So we're thinking about the future we want to live in or future that is good for the planet, because we know we can't make a prediction and if we do make predictions. Then we're getting into minds territory. And probably the next, the next important thing we work with at Futurium is then for the decision making process to think what has the future or a vision or something like that for consequences for us. So the first level is like the me level. What is important for me. How do I want to live. And, for example, if you want to have a jet set lifestyle and want to go around the world have different houses, this is fine if you if you want it for you. But then if you look at the next level of foundation for the me the society. You, you see that this couldn't be a solution for everybody because then we are asking the question what is good for the community. And what is benefiting the society. And then we have to think about other solutions. If we think about the society at its. And then on the ground ground floor like the the fundament for everything is the system earth and we thinking about solutions about the future we all always have to think about what are the planetary boundaries. And what do other creatures need. And this framework is for us very important as a basic mindset to thinking about the future and finding solutions for the future. Then another tool we using the SDGs just because this are like common future goals and they help us to get orientated. Yeah, the last very important mindset for thinking about the future our future strategies. These are some bestselling books from the past about the future, and they represent very different strategies how to tackle future problems and can be summarized as a book full of high tech strategies, which is basically about robotic AI and stuff like that. Then the book from Tim Jackson prosperity, prosperity without growth is thinking about the growth strategies, something very different, which is basically saying less is more. And then another principle, for example, is based on the principles of nature created to create. Why do I tell you that I tell you that because for for one problem there are different solutions always, and we have to make up a sinking space where we are aware of this different solutions and enable people to find their own strategy. And we also do that in our exhibition. We have three sinking spaces where we show different projects and they all are quite different. And the visitor can choose different solutions for for future problems like climate change and he can the visitor can collect the solutions. So, at the end, he has like a basket with ideas, you can take home. And this is interesting because we're not presenting a solution for the future but we presenting the complexity and then giving a space that the visitors can find their own path and their own inspiration. Another very important thing for labs, but also for creative museums. And if you imagine the future. What does it look like it. And when we ask people in our workshops, they mostly tell us something like this. Oh, the future will be like a big metropolitan area with Greenscapers and with a new transport system and renewable energy. And this this pictures us mostly stereotypes. It's not the future that people want, or people that the people want to live in or which is sustainable or something like that. It's just a stereotype from the media and the pictures from today, from our future. I don't know, touch this place, autonomous driving stuff like that. And we take that for granted that the future will be something like that. But if you look at the past like past pictures of the future, you see that this doesn't have to be true always. And you probably know the comics and movies make from the 50s and 60s where people by imagining a space age and flying cars and stuff like that. And this looks rather funny for us today, but back then this was that serious. People believed in that. And so, if we're thinking about innovation and new stuff. We have to get rid of this stereotype pictures. And we want that at Futurium to we want people to think, and therefore we give them examples that are out of out of the cliches to provoking thought, how to say so to say. This happens in the lab mostly where we show projects about about the future. And I have, I think I have a problem with my audio so I don't show you the video. But I can give you the link to the video later. Because we have. I tell you know about this, this project and this installation you see here is one from Philip Beasley. He's an architect based in Canada, and he works about thinking systems and this sculpture you see in the foreground is is thought as a prototype for the architecture of the future. An architecture that is more like a living forest or a living organism, and it's packed full with technology and with forms inspired by bone structures of birds and stuff like that and this is like an ongoing project we can then also use in our workshop space and reprint some stuff on laser cutters and 3D printers and stuff like that. Another project you can see on this picture is quite interesting because it combines tradition with future. It's a 3D printer, and it's working with clay as you probably know clay and building with clay has a very long tradition. It's used then since three 4,000 of years to building homes and what is interesting is to combine something traditional and something old with a high tech solution can bring up new solutions and new ideas and we do that all the time. In our space so that we are giving the people visiting us a design idea of design principle and they then can use that to go the next step. So this is the video that is not working. Where I give you the link after the presentation. Last important thing, collaboration. We actually build at Potorium our own tool set to enable people to collaborate to think together about the future and be creative together and to give you an idea how a workshop with this materials work. I prepared some videos and there with without sound so I can just talk over them and in this process with the with the. I will show you will also incorporate this principle of creating complexity and then making decisions. So first step in the process is creating different future scenarios. And for that, we use this card set and then on every card is a future trend. For example, if you're thinking about the future of cities, one trend would be where do we live in the desert under the earth on the Mars. Another trend category would be how does the transportation system look like and you can combine this trends and create out of 20 or 40 trends like millions, millions of. Possible futures and then in the second step, the group has to decide in which future do we want to live which combination is is a desirable vision and therefore they're selecting trends. They're thinking, oh, this would be a good future we want to live in and then discuss them and create off that out of that. A common future vision and you see it's a analog workshop. Actually, we miss it quite a bit in Corona times because for creative processes like that it's so important to to be together and discuss. The third step is now expanding the vision so coming up with more ideas so creating more complexity and for that we draw draw pictures of the future. So we try to prototype a little bit and the workshop participants really go wild and then also share their idea with other people. So after this phase you really have a basket full of ideas concerning future and concerning how to tackle future challenges. And then the last step is really condensing all the ideas that you have to one prototype. We love to work with prototype, especially as a museum because you can exhibit them and actually the art pieces we show on the lab are nothing more than very well made prototypes for future solutions. And as you can see, in this workshop, for example, there were experts, professors, researchers who worked together with children. So this whole prototyping and building something with your own hands method is not it's not just something for school workshops. It's actually something we also use to to design and iterate our own exhibition. So it's for everybody. Okay, this are the future boxes and this was actually my my last example. So thank you very much. I hope it was not so so confusing. Just as a little side note, my daughter was born this night as I was still a little bit sleep over. So thank you very much for your attention and hopefully it was not too confused and you could take something away for yourself. Thank you. Thank you very much. Congratulations. That's, that's a very bright message for the future. A newborn baby I think that this is the best message for the future. Thank you very much for a very inspiring talk as well. Yes, I mean there are many messages coming in. Congratulations by many participants. Many messages coming in. Let's go to the discussions we have approximately 15 minutes for our discussions. I have some questions myself but I think that I will not take advantage of my role, at least not for the moment. I'm going to start with questions from from the audience. So, I will start with the first question, which is addressed to Dragana. The question is, how much more complex has it become for museums to work with traditions from communities or historic aspects after the Balkan conflict in the 90s? Have museums acted as bridges between the neighbors in conflict? I think so. I think so. There is still a lot of potential, but I think so. And I think that just for example this museum that I was presenting is not yet finished. So this is still in the process, but they are very much counting on European projects that will help them also to merge together with other communities that are sharing the same type of heritage or the same. Because I think that Intangible Heritage is a really great platform for communities to really have direct experience of each other. It has a really tremendous, especially when it's performing arts, when it's singing, when it's dancing, that has a fantastic possibility. And I think that already many of museums are doing that. This one will for sure. This is great. Thank you very much. Shall I go to David with a question from the audience again? David, how is the museum supported financially? Is this a kind of research hub that is research groups from universities or other institutions that are invited by Futurium in order to execute pilots there or work for projects there? We have a mixed financing, so main financing comes from the government, and then we have partners from science and from the private and scientific partners. So we have 15 partners from Futurium, the big science organization in Germany like Fraunhofer, Max Planck, probably known internationally, they are a partner from Futurium, and they support us with ideas, but also with financing. We are not a research hub, so our main function is really science communication. So we take ideas coming from science organizations and curating them in a meaningful way to present them to our audience. And I think that's important. We don't do research ourselves. For us it's more important to be this forum, this place where people can come and then discuss the future, especially people from different spheres. I don't know, Fridays for Future together with people from a science organization together with people coming from a high-tech startup, and this discussion then happened at Futurium. Right. Thank you. How does Futurium decide about the themes that it would use in order to create exhibits and scenarios? This is a very good question because it's still a work in progress. For the first exhibit, I mean, we opened last year, so for the first six, we just took five topics that were kind of relevant in the last years, like the future of cities, the future of health, the future of the economy, and then took these topics to tell the main story you want to tell about the future's open and there are many solutions for problems. And we have to tackle these great challenges like climate change and the, I don't know, the big problems of the world. And we can't just sit there and look and hope that something will happen, but we have to get active and do something. And yeah, this idea of enabling people, this was the most important part when we did the first iteration of Futurium. And topics are important, but not so important like this as this enabling factor and the whole exhibition design and workshop design and education design behind that. And now, yeah, we building like a more complex process where we try to involve different stakeholders to decide which will be the next topic for the following year, because we want to change every year one topic out of Futurium. So the exhibit and the lab continues involving and be up to date. Thank you very much. I think this enabling of people and involving stakeholders is something that came up a lot in the presentation by Dragana, right. May I just take this opportunity to turn to you Dragana and ask one of my questions. I was thinking when you were talking about the communities and how you talk to the communities. What is happening with the conflicting narratives as communities are not the homogeneous body with a single voice in projects like the ones that you presented to us. The story that you seem to accommodate is multiple and conflicting voices I guess conflicting voices is everybody's story to be included in the museum and and how is this done. You know, it's because I usually work with the small communities, and I think everywhere around the world, small communities are more homogeneous communities. But you know, there are less people that let's say that there are less young people there are also the type of inhabitants of the smaller provincial communities is a little bit different than in a big cities in a big center urban centers. In this concrete and it really is different in every community also the also the heritage material the substance heritage substance is where we come from, you know, not every heritage substance substance is enough, let's say provocative for certain kinds of issues like you are asking in your questions, but for sure, the charats is one of them, because as I understood as I explained this heritage is really tackling is really tackling every kind of controversy that you can imagine. It's it's really and when I say that it's really it's really something that I, of course, I participated in the many gatherings, when these performances took place. And I can say that sometimes it was really hard for me to stay because there is everything is absolutely allowed. That also means in changing changing the themes changing the shoes that is part of that kind of heritage. So, absolutely, it is tackling the issues of the men and women relation position of a woman. It's the energy BT community and the reaction to them so because they are commenting through these two versus everything was going on in the world around themselves, of course optics changes, sometimes you would say, Wow, I shared this opinion but of this verse, but then some other you would say, Oh, no, no, no, no, but the thing is that actually, whenever I think about intangible cultural heritage and we must be aware that there are many practices that are not in line with human rights. And they are traditions. You know, so this is the question what what is what do we allow from intangible heritage and what we what what is the aspect where where do we say it's a heritage okay we will present and where is this thin line. What is not really that we, let's say, say, support as a heritage. And I think I was very, very strict about that it's human rights that are primarily criteria because if the heritage is somehow stopping other other being human right then I think we don't talk about heritage. Thank you. Can I, can I continue with another question to you, Dragana. In the absence of stories, people will make their own stories with very old sites, for example, Neolithic, when no stories are documented. How important is it to provide a story for the community. Oh, it is very important because actually when when when the story when the heritage is more complex. Our relation to it is important. This is what what you know what how we relate to the to the heritage from from far away times is very important what it means to us today, even if it's not based on facts it's more based on on factualities but it's more based about what we see in it what is the message that this heritage is actually telling us and this may message according to my understanding and practice is always always works when we deal with human values that we share. So even in that kind you know understanding this kind of heritage through the human experience. I think that's the most valuable part of working in a heritage sector. Thank you very much Dragana. Can I go back to David David does the museum for to learn from the ideas of the workshop participants and how are the results part of the organization development scheme. Yes, it depends a little bit on the part of the exhibit but in the development of the photo room we did different workshops with visitors. There's a German method called zukunftswerkstatt which could be translated as future workshop. And there you go through different phases you identify current problems then find common visions and then coming up with with solutions so we really went into a co design process with just normal people but also experts. And in the lab. It's a little bit more. So every project you see down there is actually a prototype and this prototype can be changed over time. So people come in and work on a sculpture and change something and as you see this clay printer this can be used by visitors in workshops and then we come up with with new parts for the exhibits and they're not just by the project owner but also by normal people. And also citizen science projects. We have for example a collaboration with sense box, which is an open source weather station. And we built around 50 open source weather stations in Berlin to measure the micro climate of Berlin and then with this with this data which is open available for everybody. And you can see where are hotspots for pollution or where is the airflow not so good and where has to be where places for change and then we go with with other visitors to use this data and go then in the future visioning process to imagine the city of the future. So it's an ongoing process process and for every project we try to find new solutions for this co design processes and then develop methods, how to tackle them, and which is what is very important. Everything is open source. So our education materials for example all open education resources. So we enable other institutions to use the material and adapt them to their needs. And then getting their feedback back to to learn more about it because we are not no experts in in all fields. It's actually impossible. Other institutions who are experts in their field and can use our methods and together we can learn a lot and that that's, that's, I think a lab principle that that works quite well if you, if you open up you getting lots of ideas and constructive feedback back. We use that, use that quite a lot. So that's an interaction with the audience then. Can I ask you one more question the COVID-19 pandemic has accelerated the rate of change for society and museums risking a huge disconnect. On the other hand, we will still dead set to define the museum. Do you see a risk for future thinking here with a huge disconnect now possible, even more. Basically, I'm optimistic. I think it's not a huge risk for us, but we have to find proper tools to tackle this, this problem. The workshop, for example, was quite analog because we think it's important to think with your hands and have an intimate collaboration if you tackle complex problems and this is not possible over zoom. And we experiment experimenting quite a bit how to how to make liquid liquid learning formats that are trying to combine the analog and the digital in a COVID-19 era. And so one basic idea you can take, take from a game design. So if you're buying a game, you can take it out of the box and then play with your family and have a playful experience. The museum museums and cultural institution can do quite the same, building like a little toolbox, sending to people and then they can do like their little creative adventure and then using zoom and other video tools to share ideas and have like this discussion part. And this is something we did quite a lot after we learned that a creative zoom meeting can be quite boring if you do it over a long time. So we give them like a challenge for home. I don't know, find problems in your street. What are the problems right now with with the transportation system in your town. And then you can do it like your little exploring thing, share that then online. And then building like a prototype with paper and pens and kitchen appliances at home and then sharing this prototype back online. So you have this liquid experience. This helps, but it's not the solution forever. I think we have to still experiment and come up with new new ideas. But stuff is happening so I'm optimistic. Thank you very much. There is a question. And at the same time and offer for collaboration. You're open to collaboration with other museums or organizations, a small NGO from Bucharest has created an interactive exhibition for children named utopia. And the goal was to unveil the real worlds for the future from the children's perspective. So there might be a possibility for collaboration there. I'm running out of time, but I think that I would like to address the last question to both of you, just as a final final word stories are what we think and also what we feel. Museums make sense. What is the relationship between sense and sensations in museums. Can sensations and emotions create sense and inspiration. How, and what is your experience in this direction. And I think that this is a question that goes to both of you, and it will give both of you an opportunity for the last few words. Do you want to go first. Yes. Absolutely. I think that this aspect of emotion and inspiration is something really very strong that museums have an as opportunity to make change. And especially I love to see the auditorium, because it's already it's just open museum and amount of creativity that is poured in every museum because I work from the scratches to the new museums like this museum of Becharat is just not in the final yet face. But I know that this creativity of so many people involved together with communities who are sharing their stories and we are somehow transmitting them to the visitors. And I think that this kind of creative processes are really magical. And I think that it's in every really museum that has that energy, people are inspired, and they are open, let's say, to also give their share in museum making sense. David. Yes, emotions are extremely important, especially if you are in the field of the unknown unknowns. So it quite often it happens that, I don't know we're talking about robotics and the response is not an intellectual one it's emotional one. Oh, I don't think this feels good this future you're picturing there and I have some I can't tell you what it is, but I have a feeling about it. And we have to take this seriously as a starting point for further examination and exploration. And the other thing is engagement. If you want to get active and do something and want to push people to to be active. It's a very emotional process. So, smiling, having fun, going through a collective experience is something really, really important. So, enabling is not just giving a tool set and inspiration. It's, it's a, it's an emotional process. And this, this is very important. And that's also a reason we use so much game design techniques and workshops and positive thinking, even if we tackling very serious problems like like climate change. Because changing the future has to be fun. And otherwise, nobody would do it, in my opinion. So emotions are important for finding out more about your visions of people and how they relate to certain topics. And then on the other hand, as a mechanism for engaging and enabling people, tackling the future. Thank you very much. I think that we got many ideas today. Emotions enabling people agile thinking playfulness. I think that are there all wonderful ideas that we can take with us to our own projects and to our own museums. Thank you very much. Thank you both to the speakers, and to everybody for, you know, all your questions. I'm sorry that we couldn't answer to all the questions, but I'm sure that David and Dragana will be happy to answer some questions afterwards in writing as well. Thank you very much everybody just giving the floor to Julie again. Thank you, Alexandra. Thank you, Dragana. Thank you, David for this very inspiring session.