 We can start proceedings if that's okay. Welcome each and every one of you to the bringing data to life, co-designing and language data commons. First things first, we need to acknowledge our presence on the land of the Toribu, the Agara people, the traditional custodians of this particular area. Myself, I'm Grant, Sara. I come from Gurangurang country, a different place to hear. I don't have the right to speak for Toribu, the Agara. That's part of our protocol, part of our law and today's conversation is really bringing galleries, libraries, archives, museums in to have a conversation around data, how to access, make it more accessible, to make it more practical in terms of use, how to work in collaboration with each other. One of the key things we talked about in the context of getting to this point was that we need to respect the autonomy of individual agencies. This is not going to change the world today. It's just really having a conversation and getting you comfortable with what it is that we've got to talk about. So I encourage everybody to just relax, chill out, enjoy the space and enjoy the place. In most forums that I facilitate, I recognise that everybody in this room, you come together with the right head, the right heart to make change. Whether you realise it or not, what you're trying to do in this space through collaboration is contribute to a greater conversation around truth-telling and that's an important thing to embrace. Individually, each and every one of you are unique and special, but not any of us are perfect, so we don't have the right to judge each other. We need to stand by each other and support each other. Language data is being kept in places and spaces where people don't know it's necessarily there. So we need to sort of unravel that and contribute to opening up the dialogue so that people have access and we need to be prepared to support each other across the institutions that you work. The values for the day are ancient values that have always been part of our culture and society and it's about caring and sharing and respect for each other as people, but being conscious of where we sit on horrible Yagura land today and enjoying the conversation because I think personally we can get a lot out of today. We're not going to change the world in a day, but we're going to make significant steps. What I'd like to do is hand to Jenny Fuster to just give you a bit of an inside overview of that. So OK, and I'm assuming that this virtual stuff will all sink in. So we'll hear from Jenny. OK. Hi, everybody. And thank you, Grant. I, too, like to acknowledge and celebrate the first Australians on whose tradition lands we meet around Australian. And I pay my respects to the elders past, present and future. Unfortunately, I'm unable to be with you today due to a COVID close call. And I'm sure that many of us are familiar with that by now. So I am instead coming to you from the beautiful lands of the Ghana people here in South Australia. So welcome, everyone, to this bringing data to life event, whether you're in Brisbane or like me online. The ARDC has been thrilled to be involved in the scoping and planning of this event. And the hope is that we may hold similar events in other states in the future. As the manager of the Haas Research, Data Commons and Indigenous Research Capability program, I'm acutely aware of the role that the glam sector plays in providing collections of material or data, if you like, to the research community, particularly researchers in humanities, arts and social sciences. Also, as a long serving committee member of an Australian Museums and Galleries Association Network, I'm aware that materials documenting the rich heritage of Australia and its First Nations people are held in museums, archives, galleries and libraries, both urban and rural, that are so geographically dispersed that research on a national scale is complex and often costly. However, geographic challenges are not the only issue relating to accessibility, especially when it comes to collections that hold information relating to Australian Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. We must consider accessibility alongside the care principles for Indigenous data governance and the Tandania Declaration. These are serious issues that we must all consider and which I'm sure will be discussed openly today under grants guidance. So from all of us at the ARDC, I'd like to thank you all for attending today. I particularly want to acknowledge the generosity of the Indigenous community today for their contribution to the realisation of this event and for their willingness to participate in a sensitive discussion so that we can all gain a greater understanding of how to work harmoniously together and to create synergies between Glam researchers and Indigenous communities so that we can indeed bring data to life. But before I hand back to Grant, I just wanted to point out that today is National Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Children's Day. So let's keep that in mind today in the hope that our discussions will leave a lasting legacy, however small, for future generations. Thanks, everyone, and have a great day. Thank you, Jenny, for your introduction. Just an extension of the acknowledgement. I just want to put some things in the context via a couple of slides just to get us to conceptualise what we're talking about in the context of language data. A lot of the focus is on Indigenous language data, but Kathy and I were last night talking about the Greek and the Italian presence and there's a lot of history in around the Chinese and the attitudes towards the Chinese as a precursor to the establishment of an Advanced Australia Fair. There's a whole history that we can uncover in relation to language. But I wanted to get people to consider this conversation around language data in the context of who we are as an Australian society and how we become socialised to think and feel and behave. And what time frame have we got? So let me look at that as an example. We're only talking, as of this year, 234 years. The traditional custodians occupies of the lands here in Australia have been here for thousands upon thousands upon thousands as generations. So the language and the data that we're talking about predominantly comes from a 234 year time space, which is not that long. This next one is also interesting. You see the map of Europe now. By way of example, we'll talk about language data in Poland. So what I'm going to do on this map is I'm going to go to the Portuguese people because they're not far from Poland. So you can you see some of the problems here straight away. You wouldn't get the German people to come in and talk Polish because there's a little bit of historical conflict there. So we need to be understanding of those things. But that's blatantly obvious. We can see the complex difficulties. We can go into Italy and Italians aren't all the same. The different dialects. So if we can understand that in the context of this conversation as we go through, we're only in our infancy and there's an opportunity to go forward and consolidate and collaborate. There's no experts in this room, but you're all here for the right reasons. You've got the right head, the right heart and you want to transcend problems to come up with meaningful solutions based on your shared contributions. Yeah, makes sense. And in 100 years from this day, where are you going to be, sister? You're not going to be here, but you're here today. And that's important. So let's make it work. Let's have that conversation. If we can understand the complexities around that, what we need to actually understand is this. Portuguese people can't speak for Polish people or Gorengoreng people can't speak for Maru people or Larikeia and vice versa. We're not a race of people. The term in aborigine was a pseudo scientific Latinized term that was introduced to find all of those language groups as one. And there in itself lies a problem. So we've got to get back to some sensitivities around the diversity of language, who has the right to access language and so forth. And that's part of what your conversation is all about. So keep those slides in mind. And I'm going to invite our first panel members up today. There's three panel conversations that we're going to have. The first one will be around co-design and exploration of what is meant by co-design and bringing data to life. And that will consist of Sandra Phillips, University of Queensland, Rose Barracliff, Queensland State Archives, Louise De Noon, State Library Queensland and Michael. How do you say that? Halt. So that'll be your first panel session. The second one will be about Indigenous language materials and the co-design process. And the third panel is about oral histories and co-design processes. And we'll wrap up the day with a bit of a round table conversation, a combination of everything that's talked about in the panels, but it'll be an interactive conversation among yourselves as well. So if there's questions that you want to ask, depending on time, you can put that to the panel and I'll moderate those conversations. So we'll invite our first group of panel members up if that's okay. Now, I understand in my briefing that you've all been informed of the panel process and what you're to do, starting with a five minute intro of self and then I'll let you just go to talk. Yeah? Michael, what's it like to be the most handsome gentleman on the panel? It's a first. Okay. So I'll hand it to you to start the conversation and we'll start with this young lady here. Oh, starting with me, I believe. Yeah, I do. Double check what the desk is gonna do for us. Yeah, I've given them over, they've been put up. Okay, I might stand up for my little five minutes and Grant, I'm happy for you to make sure that I keep to time. Sorry, Rose, I'm gonna have to squeeze past you. Okay, correct. Oh yeah, and we've got that, which is great. I love those. So good morning, everyone. Congratulations on making it into the room. Cheers, yahoos. There've been planes, trains, automobiles, probably ferries and foot falcon as well. Thanks for your opening comments, Grant. Sorry, it's wonderful to have you as part of the day and helping us stay on track and collaborating strategically together. I too acknowledge the traditional ownership of the lands that we gather on and the waters by which we all say gather. The tourable and Yagaro Yurigopal peoples of the countries on which metropolitan Brisbane has been imposed and the lands upon which metropolitan Brisbane continues to dominate the landscape. Us, as Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples, our cultures, our histories, and by definition, our futures. So consider yourself another small intervention into that great grand flow of the colonial narrative upon which we are all framed. Us mobs and all other mobs. So with that, they're kind of the preamble to the five minutes. So Sandra Phillips, I'm Waka Waka and Gurangurang. I'm of those nations through my mother, Ruth Ross, Ne Phillips, Ne Hill, born of the Mai Mai family in North Burnett, region of Queensland. I'm also of, through my maternal great grandmother, the Gurangurang through my great-grandmother, Granny Sarah Simpson, we refer to her as. Granny Sarah passed two months before my birth and in the year upon which the Australian people agreed that we should be counted in the census. So what year was that? 67, exactly. So 55 years later, here we are again discussing the possibility of constitutional change, which we may touch on at different points during the day. So Granny Sarah Simpson passed in 1967 and Granny Sarah was a daughter of the late, of course, Molly Jones, who is an apical ancestor on the Port Curtis Coral Coast. Successful native title consent determination. Subsequently, I am invigiled in kinship with Granny Sarah and also Robert McClellan and possibly other mob in the room. So five slides, probably now two and a half minutes. Co-design, some ideas, I like what Granny said, there are no experts in the room or alternatively, we are all experts in the room. So a bit of both, let's find the sweet spot of that. Next slide please. So let's start with some cautionary notes, why not? And these are quotes from Maggie Walter, distinguished professor Maggie Walter, Uruk Truth and Justice Commissioner, quantitative sociologist and emeritus professor at the University of Tasmania and also a woman indigenous to Tasmania. So Maggie cautions us on a few things as we step into the space of a room framed by the term co-design. Lovely, thank you. So Maggie's cautions, be careful with words like co-design, which is flitting around more frequently with no solid definition. So when we first started our conversations under the director leadership of Professor Michael Horro, UQHASS Humanities and Social Sciences faculty colleague, I said, but what are we talking about? What do we mean when we say co-design? So Maggie Walter's cautionary note, be careful with these words, which to my mind means taking care, okay? It's not to scare us off, but it's to engage us with an entreaty to take care. Maggie also writes, real co-design in practice is an equal share in decision-making and equality of power. So a practice of sharing power and perhaps benefit. That's what we mean, or what we ideally could mean when we speak of and practice co-design. And to Maggie's longstanding contribution and also founding of the way in which we understand Indigenous data sovereignty in Australia, along with her colleagues who have established their collective and also who are members of the Global Indigenous Data Alliance, which I will refer to shortly. Maggie says that to actually do co-design, we have to change our behaviours. And behavioural change only comes when people have skin in the game through some measure of accountability or responsibility for the outcomes of their actions. So that's a kind of call to take up responsibility in the way that we work and the work that we do and the outcomes that we ensure and the outcomes that we're accountable for. So also drawing on Maggie here, cautionary notes, positive actions. Avoid motherhood statements in the work that we do. Articulate principles, one minute. For example, Maggie encourages us to draw on principles from the Global Indigenous Data Alliance, care principles for Indigenous data governance. Maggie says principles alone are not enough and that one must provide examples of how principles can be operationalised. I think today's session is an example of how the principles of co-design is being operationalised. Indeed, you might have seen on the event bright that you are being invited to co-design the language data commons that Michael Hall leads. So what are the care principles for Indigenous data governance? Collective benefit, authority to control, responsibility and ethics. Now, I have information around all of this but let's just park that there and we'll be probably touching on this throughout the day and I'm sure my amazing colleagues in academia and in the sectors that GLAM kind of provides an umbrella over, libraries, archives, museums and libraries, archives, museums, galleries. How do we take care in an increasingly fair environment where the principles are about findability, accessibility, interoperability and reusability? Do we want our language data being reused willy-nilly? What are the terms upon which our language data will be accessed, will be found, will be discovered, would be made connectable to other collections and will be used. So how do we take care in an increasingly fair environment? I'll go back, I paid for this image this morning so I want to use it. Ah! Once again, I thought I cannot do a presentation with a ripped off image from the internet and I use my personal debit cards rather than my corporate card, I don't know why I did that. But the point here of course, this is symbolic. This is to say we cannot proceed forth being fair weather friends. We have to work together through all seasons, all conditions and we have to be clear in our language and our intent and essentially unfailing goodwill. And we can't hide behind jargon the words that we use, we have to make transparent to a diverse ecology of stakeholders, partners, peoples and always remembering that we all sit, stand and work on stolen lands. Thank you. I do have a slide, but it's also not that necessary. So I actually sit kind of across these both these spaces in that or all three of these spaces in that I'm indigenous so I am butchilla from Fraser Coast area. I'm a researcher as well so I'm just finishing up my doctorate at the University of Sunshine Coast and my research is on archives. So I researched the representation of indigenous people in archives. And then I also am the First Nations Archives advisor to the Queensland State Archives. So I do some work in the practical space for this as well. One of the things that strikes me and even as I'm looking at the program for today is that it refers to institutions and researchers and glam bodies and LDACA. But the piece that's missing here is the community. There's been a huge shift in the theorization and the understanding of record ownership or data ownership if you will in the archive space or in the glam space in recent years. So where even legally still, records are seen to be the property of the institution that owns them or the person that creates them or the government agency that creates them and legally that is still the case. There is a much greater expectation that the knowledge in those records belongs to the community. Whether that fits within our legal structure or our archival practice structure is becoming less and less relevant in fact. So there's a moral obligation on collecting institutions to honor the intellectual and cultural property rights of traditional owners. So that's really where my research sits a lot in that space and I'm sure we'll hear more about that in the next panels. Two of my Indigenous archive collective colleagues are presenting on that panel, Lauren Booker and Kirsten Thorpe. So when I think about co-design, it is very much thinking about it from the point of view that any record that contains information that is the intellectual or cultural property of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people is their record. And in fact, that has been stated since the Bringing Them Home report, Mick Gutter said it there and a lot of the interviewees in that process expressed the exact same thing, that records about us and with our knowledge belong to us and has since been reiterated in other research programs, for example, the Trust and Technology project, which was done in collaboration with Monash University and the Public Records Office of Victoria and Courage Heritage Trust. Very much centering that the traditional owners are the owners of that record, no matter where that record sits. Therefore, they're considered co-creators. Therefore, as Annie Sandra has said, they should share equal authority in any co-design process, as well as have equal benefit sharing in any outcomes of that process. So I think that, to me, is the most important part of this. And I think for... I know Eldaka is not just about indigenous languages, it's about all languages, but obviously that's a huge component of what Eldaka is trying to achieve. So when it comes to thinking about what that's going to look like, I think you need to consider that there's certainly... There's some traditional owner groups that don't want their language accessible by anyone else. And they will want to control where it is kept and who can see it and how discoverable it is and how accessible it is. So I feel that to have these conversations going forward, community needs to be in the room and needs to be a component of that. So I'll stop there and pass on to Louise. Well, thank you. And it's fantastic to be here only briefly, unfortunately. I have to leave, but I too would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land that we gather and pay our respects and to really take the time to think about what that means and in the different contexts. Also that we're in the room with some absolutely astounding people, both on the panel. And I wanted to acknowledge Robert Wing. He was working with us as the languages coordinator at State Library and Des Crump who was formerly in the role. And the State Library has been, you know, we're part of the glam sector. I think of my career in the glam sector, museums and libraries and how that's changed and how engaging, whether it's co-designing, collaborating, consulting of all the things that have gotten us to the point of being here, being able to have that conversation and projecting that learning ahead of where we want to go and how we can change and transform in response and when we listen and when we take things slowly and when we work with communities and when we do that work. And, you know, State Library's been working, particularly with Indigenous languages, for more than 10 years. And I think that, you know, and we have received funding from the Commonwealth Government to support that work and playing that role of providing, of opening up the collection in all the different ways that means of inviting people in, having workshops going out, making the collection more accessible through the catalog so people can more easily find things. It's all been, you know, this slow, iterative process, I suppose. And I think that that opportunity for considered conversation and coming to sit at the table as a collecting institution, knowing what your place is, knowing that you're there to listen and that in archives, in the glam sector, we're really custodians. I mean, we're really, you know, we're not the owners of material, they're here, we're looking after them, but what does that mean and how do we listen? So I suppose, you know, just in March, we had, I think it was at the powerhouse, that Indigenous Languages Symposium and where we had nearly 200 people from across Queensland. And you can see the diversity of work that communities are undertaking, the different approaches people want to take and the hunger for connecting and for policy and leadership. And I think that's why it was so exciting to see what was happening at the Gama Festival on the weekend, I think. I don't know how others felt and to see the possibility in that broader context, because we are impacted in the glam sector by that broader policy environment in very real ways. So if that starts to change, how can we lean in or whatever the word is or be part of that conversation as a sector? Because I think we've got a lot to offer and a lot to be part of, but we've got a lot to learn as well and a lot of listening, but not to be in a position where you end up doing nothing, because it's too hard or too difficult. But I think in terms of co-design and coming to the conversation, State Library works with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities in all different ways, and one of those is through Indigenous Knowledge Centres, and they're very much a partnership with the local government, and all of our negotiations are really acknowledging that our relationship is with the local government, with languages, with an exhibition, with other activities. You know what you're at the table and how do you have clarity about that. Things might change and evolve, but you come back to what's there. But I think what I think, often when you're thinking about communities and hopefully Robert can talk about it a little bit and Des, but if you're sitting at the table in Ingenu, you're opening the IKC, you've got people, people don't necessarily differentiate as the museum or the gallery, they don't care whether it's at archives. They want to know where it is and how to access it, in some cases it's all just Brisbane. What does it like and how are we better at supporting communities and having a joined up offer, so we're not sort of saying, well, I'm from State Library and we only do this bit. At least we should know, oh, you want to do that, this is over there. Or you're coming to Brisbane, let's take you to the museum and the archives as well. That kind of generosity of sharing across the sector, which I think, see Sophia there with the gallery, I think that we do, when people are coming to Brisbane, try and have those doors open so we can connect and put a community hat on of what it feels like or what it is that they're interested in, or it might be that they couldn't care less about that, they don't want to know about government records, they want, you know, but that listening and not assuming I think is really important. Yeah, I really... Sorry, I'll miss some of the other sessions, but I think it's fantastic that Des and Robert are here and there's some great, really recent examples of being out in the community and talking to people, so thank you. So I'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the lands in which we're meeting today as well and pay respects to people in the room, but also people outside the room, elders past, present and future. I'm non-integinous. I came to this land in 1996. I grew up on Tainui lands in Aotearoa, New Zealand, but this is my second home. I love Brisbane and this country. So when we pulled this event together and talking with Sandra, we got excited about co-design and then she started to say, well, what is co-design? Oh, gosh, I'm a linguist. So we analyze language, but we sort of use it as well in our ways. So I thought perhaps one thing I could bring is my understanding of some of the terms which are up here, language data. Why do we use the term language data, not collections? And what is the commons anyway? And the aim isn't to define the terms definitively, because it's a very limited subjectivity that I'm bringing to it, but when you're trying to co-design, when you're trying to do things together, the first thing you have to do is understand where each other's coming from and what your concerns are and what's important to you. So I think when we talk about language data or thinking, what is language data anyway? And I think what it implies is a kind of repurposing, because we're using language all the time, we're using language right now, and this is not going to become, right now, a part of Al-Dakr, I don't think, I don't think we're recording it and putting it in right. So we use language all the time, but sometimes we make records of us writing, speaking, typing online, and those things are then gathered up and we use them for other purposes. And it's kind of research in that broad sense. And what's fascinating to me about language data and language data commons and working with Anchris, which is a very big organization which has billions of dollars and usually deals with scientists and astronomers and all this kind of thing. What I think is really interesting about our stuff when we're talking about language-language data is it involves people. And so when we talk about research, there's kind of, it's on a spectrum of research which is done in universities and research institutions and in institutions like IATSIS, and then it stretches out to people in the community. And people in the community are actually part of that research process. There's no language research without people in communities, right? And so it's a very different ecosystem to just gathering some data points from the sky and doing whatever it is that astronomers do, which I'm sure it's exciting, a lot of astronomy. And so when we talk about language, I think we're talking about audio recordings, audio-visual recordings, people speaking. Sometimes you have linguists doing very strange things which is getting people to say words. I won't say what I call those people, but they kind of get wordless, get people pronouncing things in different ways and so on. But the most interesting thing, of course, is people just going about doing whatever it is they would be doing, right? And recording those things. You can do it on video, audio. There's written records, which are held, as I've learned in the glam sector, in all sorts of very surprising places. So really exciting stuff coming out of Queensland State Archives which we wouldn't have imagined, actually. I think even a few years ago. So this is the things that Des has been talking about. Just amazing what's there. And then we have collections. So sometimes those collections would have been some kind of linguist or missionary or anthropologist who went around collecting stuff. And so that's kind of collection. But sometimes this language data helps within collections. So that's why we prefer the term data because it might be a whole collection but it might be bits and pieces within a particular collection as well. And so there's all sorts of different perspectives on what we think language is. So as I said, people might think it's like sounds. It might be words. It's all the way to what people do with language. How do we get people to do things for us through language? There's all sorts of ways in which we do that, right? And we were talking about that last night. We talk about it being national. So it's a national commons. So the idea of national is it's all the languages of Australia and its region. So of course that starts with the indigenous languages of Australia. Optional Torres Strait Islander languages. There's also only non-indigenous languages. English, Auslan I think is non-indigenous. You have migrant languages as well. English is a migrant language too, right? But it has a particular place in Australian society. And then I think there's a third category, and correct me if I'm getting it wrong, of indigenous languages as well, which are kind of between indigenous and non-indigenous languages. And people would contest and argue about where they properly belong. Not arguments for myself, but for others to be thinking about as well. And then commons. I think commons is the most important one. When we say commons, we don't mean the language data is in common or held in common by people. That is not the meaning. Whoever is the owner and proper authority in the language is respected and that's part of what we're trying to understand. What's in common is the systems by which we try and find these things. And starting to bring together their expertise and building up an ecosystem where we really can have genuine indigenous leadership in this area as well, because you have to have skill sets and positions and roles and so on. So that's part of our aim to build this kind of common ecosystem. I think it's probably the better term. So I always warn that we're not talking about opening up all the language data. I would never do it with the data that I collect. You can't do that to people. So I'm quite well aware that's not what we're on about here. I had some words about co-design and what I think it is. But I think, Sandra, you actually did a much better job. So I'll stick with... The only thing I would say is I think it's about doing things together. So it's about participating and certainly hear what you're saying about communities not yet being involved. So this is clearly something we had to be working towards. Today's just a kind of a next step along the way. So thank you. Conversation in some way. Let me start by congratulating you, Leigh Ann. You took the whole glam thing too hard. Louise. Louise. What do I say, Leigh Ann? It doesn't matter. Louise. What is Sandra and Rose? What's the importance of being trauma-informed in this conversation around co-design, given the past, present, intergenerational trauma and all those sorts of things? Because a lot of those records, A, were part of the system that perpetuated trauma in the first place, but also now in accessing those records, it rehashes that over again. So I think trauma-informed practice is very, very important in any sort of archival or record collection process, for sure. Myself and all of us that were on stolen lands, for sure, are rhetorical reasons. It connects to the experience of being Indigenous every day. And it should also connect to the experience of being non-Indigenous every day. Every time a non-Indigenous professional in this country gets approached, rework in relation to Indigenous peoples, cultures, communities and knowledges, I would like you all to take care when you are approached. Just give it a bit of pause before you perhaps just, you know, I'm using an old return function. I'd learn how to type in high school. So before you flick off that email, just pause a little and think about what the inquiry is about, what the approach is about, what spirit and energy might be animating this approach. So when you ask that fantastic question about being trauma-informed in our practices, I think living on stolen lands means every one of us needs to learn how to be trauma-informed. Otherwise you're not doing jobs properly. Now I know you set us up with a really nice energy this morning and, you know, we can all work together and we can, but there are moments where we need to be reminded very explicitly about some things and this room is one of those, I think. I would also like to just comment on communities. There are always empty seats, literally and metaphorically in rooms. Imagine mobs in those seats. One, and two, there is also indigenous community inside of these institutions and also governing these institutions. So we are also a community. We are a collective, a community of interest and practice and cultural autonomy and well-being. So co-design, this is an excellent reading. I'm happy to share it with you all later. Speaks of there being long traditions of collaborative research, just now being kind of put under the umbrella of co-design and just to throw a few more seed words, I'll shut up soon, Grant. Collective, there are ways to bring people together. Collective, connective, collaborative and cooperative. The tools that we use to bring people's ideas together is what we need to master so that we are effectively doing co-design in our work. Thank you, Sandra and Rose. An extension of that trauma healing focus framework of thinking, if you go to Palm Island, historically 69 different tribal groups were forcibly removed to Palm Island. 28 different tribal groups forcibly removed to Sherbrooke. What are the trauma issues that need to be considered in that context and who speaks for the people of Palm Island? Who speaks for the people of Sherbrooke? And then if you go then beyond to Sherbrooke, you go government missions, sorry, Christian-based missions, government reserves, different dynamics, a lot of complex trauma, and then we transgress into stolen generations who will take it away from their culture, their language, their mothers. There's psychological trauma there. How do you impose or overlay that in this process of trauma and language data? And you don't have to answer it in entirety. Yeah, so, Louise, you know, I wanted you on this panel in this room today and I'm so grateful that you could come for some of it. I think the way that you work is exemplary and over the past decade of working across Queensland. So I think you've got much to offer in how to do that. Thank you, Sandra. Yeah. Yeah, no, I'm here and we're here and in the moment. And I think... Oh, what? Yeah, it's... You know, about a decade ago when I was working with, you know, staff in the collecting sort of area, I think it's really that how to feel as, you know, comfortable in the uncomfortableness that this is uncomfortable. There is uncomfortable stuff that we're looking at and working through that we have to find ways through to be okay with different responses and actually embrace those responses and to find them ourselves as well when we're looking at that material and imagining what's behind it and not what it's there for and how to create spaces where those conversations can happen both at a sort of one-on-one level or a more group and informed way and how to work with staff. And I think, you know, State Library, like all of the other national and state libraries, and there's people online who are in them, so hopefully working is with... It's also been that commitment to every single staff member doing cultural capability training, you know, that IAXIS course, then how do we improve on that and work with it? How do we have talking circles of the implications for your work? And if you're in the ICT or you're in metadata or you're in finance, you'll have different ways that you might respond to acting on that. But in the... So with the collecting spaces, I mean, I think... And hopefully some people are aware of the work that was done for the International Year of Indigenous Languages and State Libraries. We did a big exhibition, but every single team at State Library had to make a person, had to make a personal commitment of what they were going to do. And some of the most exciting things were the catalogers, you know, on the metadata people who were thinking, how do you... If you put in a name of Dolby that the traditional... You know, that the place of Dolby will come up as well. So it's that exposure. Or as soon as Gary got named, how long does it take us to update the collection record so that we're reinforcing, embracing those changes? So I think that it takes the... Which I think is that work that Kirsten Thorpe has also really identified and rose, is that it's not just the work of an Indigenous services team or as Indigenous services. You know, what are the role of the curators and the staff and the leadership within the organisations, but what does it mean as it's embraced through the whole organisation? And what does it mean also in this sort of safe place of this room when you get things wrong? You know, what is that? What does... How do we respond? And how's our resilience to go? Okay, well, we did get that. How do we... Yeah, how do we keep the relationship going? How do we heal from that? How do we connect with people? So I don't want to give anyone the impression... I mean, it's so rewarding. And I think when you've got... And I think some of the languages work that happened is also seeing when you invite community in and what their interests and obviously family history for State Library is huge with Tyndale Collection and Margaret Laurie and those collections and people have got their own stories and concerns about those people, about those collections, whether they're right or wrong, what they were there, but they are at this point and, you know, access to the Tyndale Collection through State Library has been for more than 20 years and that's not a function that's, you know, is actually... Loris Williams very early on, the first Aboriginal archivist who, you know, made that decision to bring that. So we do walk on the... You know, we are building on that work that others have done, but how did I get to Tyndale? Oh, I know. So what are people coming in and researching, you know, within the collections? And it is languages that you can see people are excited and engaged with. And so how do you work with that rather than the other things that are in the collection? So how do you see through the Mestin archive with all the terrible... But he has word lists and things that can open up other knowledges. So it's sort of how to be comfortable in the uncomfortableness, but also acknowledging the complexity of it all and it's not... You know, sometimes I think you want easy answers or you want straight throughs off. We did that, it'll all be okay. Well, it's not like that. It's like the layering of responses. So, yeah. State Library of Queensland, something I think that you do really well is you have... Like, if you look at the state libraries around Australia, State Library of Queensland has a disproportionately high number of Indigenous staff. And I think that's key. You've got to create employment for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people to embed those perspectives in your day-to-day practice. So... And the Indigenous Knowledge Centre spread throughout Queensland. You mentioned, you know, about a lot of the collections are held in Brisbane. I think we need to change that. We're a huge state. We need to be working and researching and supporting language revitalisation in communities, not making communities have to come down to the city to be able to do this work. Just on the issue of Tindale in his day, our old Aboriginal people weren't given a voice. So there needs to be a conversation in a modern day around the cultural veracity of Tindale's information. And that's what's got to be enabled as part of this process. Michael, you talked about astronomers and your fascination with them. The first astronomers were from here. And they got a story to tell too, which is important as well. We're getting to the end of this panel conversation, but I'm going to open it up to a couple of questions from the floor. But Louise, you raised an interesting point. And, Sandra, you also talked about ethics. We need to precede the word ethics with cultural ethics against a diverse backdrop of many different First Nations peoples. Even the reference to nations is an introduced language term, whereas we could talk about custodians or occupiers. So that's sort of a little complexity around that. But the key thing is in the glam sector, what I see as an outsider, you all work in individual agencies. And if Louise rings Grant, if you ring me from the library and I work in the archives and you get Kathy, who's an Aboriginal person who just wants to come in and find out from you what she can about her language, you need to be able to rely on me. You can tell Kathy, oh, you can ring Grant. He works at Archives, and Grant will help you with this. So when Kathy comes to see Grant, you've established the communication link for Kathy to come to me. I need to honour and respect your link back. Otherwise it all falls by the wayside. Basic stuff. You don't promise things that can't be delivered. That's a big no-no in Aboriginal engagement. Are there any burning questions that come from the audience to any of the panel members? Nick, you're churning one out. I can see. So another C word, copyright. So in amongst all this stuff with all the best intentions in the world you've got this tyrannical regime of copyright that blocks access to stuff for Aboriginal people. So are there ways of subverting that, please, so that Aboriginal people can get access to materials if the copyright holders can't be found? At the very same time be people who uphold certain ideals about Aboriginal peoples and cultures. Okay? But in terms of practice how the colleagues in different institutions navigate that. I mean copyright is obviously a huge issue that is dominating this notion of ownership of records and, yeah, there's very little appetite for taking on copyright as a legislation, I would say. And that's why I say that even if there's not a legislative right there or a legislative obligation there is still a moral obligation. And I certainly see that with State Library of Queensland and with Queensland State Archives are moving more towards considering their moral obligations within how they have to operate as an organisation rather than strictly or they're not doing anything illegal. I mean just say that on record. But they are solutions orientated. So, but that's part of why it's so important to be able to have a conversation rather than just doing things systematically and that's why it's important to have all stakeholders in that record involved in that conversation. One more question before we move to the next panel. Mine's just a question, so Kylie Brass from the Academy of the Humanities. It's another C word, custodian chip. So, you know, I'll often talk about glam sector as being data custodians. So, for example, you're using I'd love just a bit of a reflection on how to use that word well and, you know, in the sense of I guess the legal ownership, you know, or property of glam, you know, is that the right terminology to be using? Should we be thinking of custodianship and how does, what does it mean in Aboriginal communities to be talking about ownership and custodianship? What does it mean in the glam sector? And, you know, the nuance there. Sorry, I feel like I'm... Louise, feel to pretty jump in at any point in time. I mean, there is a difference between legal ownership and custodianship, personally. Secondly, anything that requires an understanding of what community would think requires asking the community. So, I won't speak for any communities. But I see often, because I do work, obviously, across Queensland State Archives, but I've done some work with State Library of Queensland as well, that there is very little understanding of how different those two organisations are and how that affects what you can access in those collections and how you can access it. And that's where you come into that difference between custodianship and ownership and who can set the rights on restricted access periods, for example. So, State Library of Queensland, I would say, has a lot more autonomy in that regard. Then Queensland State Archives is literally just a custodian of the records that they are managing. Those records at Queensland State Archives still and will always, legally, at this point in time, belong to the parent agency that created those records. So, they literally are just following the instructions they've been given, whereas when State Library of Queensland acquires collections, there is, in a lot of cases, transfer of ownership, therefore transfer of control of those records. So, there's nuance in that space that needs to be understood a lot better from communities, from researchers, from everyone, I would say. Thank you, Rose. And look, in the interest of time, we're actually behind, but that's okay. If you do have any other questions, you've still got little lunch and big lunch and ask questions of these panel members or other panel members. I've got a bit of a dilemma here. I noticed on the next panel, we've got six panel members, but I only got four seats. So, that's going to be problematic. Thank you very much, Rose, Sandra, Louise and Michael, for your excellent start to the day. Oh, two? Oh, right. So, that's cool.