 Hey everybody, welcome back to the Linuxcast. I'm your host met. I'm joined by Tyler. I Didn't do the last names, but I don't cares because I can't say my one last name and it's okay. I can't say my last name You can't count together We're having a day. Yes, it's this has not been 20 minutes of fucking around with X Monad Just try to get to work with OBS It just it was a complete failure and then I had to install DWM. So I'm back on DWM. So whatever Yeah, this is Whatever, it's just not a good day. This is gonna be a horrendous podcast. I'm just gonna tell you this right now We're gonna there's gonna I'm just to warn you there's gonna be so many rabbit holes and You know just we're gonna be going off on tangents For the whole like the next hour, it's gonna be great. Anyways, or not great, whatever Tyler, what have you been doing in Linux this week? Well, I've actually well for one in inside of Linux I have been using IRC like Just in general now before I'd never used it So that's interesting, but how I got into using IRC is Livestreaming on Odyssey I've been doing quite a bit of it I don't I don't know if like how long it was it actually took since Livestreaming was like announced and in beta, but it's now available for me and so I've had a couple of live streams and I just did my Second one yesterday and that went on for eight hours. It was a lot of fun Yeah, like an eight hour stream. That was fun Wow, okay. Yeah I did my last live stream on YouTube was two hours and like a few minutes and that was entirely too long for me I could never do eight hours worth of live streaming. I've done it. I Here's how crazy I am About a year and a half ago, maybe two years ago, I did a full 24 hour stream that Hurt like that was The logistics confused me like Do you get up like halfway through to go get lunch or something or do you have somebody bring you food or you go to the I mean you go to the bathroom obviously eventually, right? Yeah, like throw up in like a be right back screen and like play some music and then go to the bathroom or Like I'll I for that I threw up like an intermission screen and like eight for a little bit talked and then I would have to have an absurd amount of money paid to me to do that After doing it, I would too. Oh, no, no, no, I'm getting paid up front man I want my money up front. There's gonna be no Donations afterwards they can be donations during but I want the the main part of the cash upfront because I otherwise know I'm No, I Don't Maybe someday I'll eventually I'll take a look at I'm just not that into odyssey. I mean we talked about this last week I just not Like I put all my videos up there, but I Don't know like I haven't got the audience to interest me or something. I don't know Maybe you just haven't been discovered yet And so here's one thing while we're talking about odyssey and I'm thinking about it the pot So these podcasts are not getting transferred over to odyssey. I don't know I saw that I don't know why I think it's because they're too long That might be it Yeah, I know obviously it's fussy I'd have to go through and you know upload them manually and then you don't get any transcoding like at all So I don't know We'll see how that goes Maybe you have to have a certain amount of like it doesn't make sense because it seems like if you have a The way they do the whole automatic transfer thing is they do it based on like there's like levels based on how many followers you have on YouTube So like I mean just went over 2,500 followers So I'd assume that I'm at the price point where they'd actually transfer over something this an hour long, but maybe I'm wrong I don't know Yeah, I noticed that they weren't be getting transferred over I'll look into that and see why that's not happening Because to be honest, I'm pretty sure I'm too lazy to do it manually Just be honest about it. Yeah, what have you been up to man? Just shoot me now Yeah, that's been my leak in Linux cuz alright, so I'm big on trying out new window managers and I've been trying to use X-mone ad for probably six months I've tried it off and on over the course of six months and It's been not a great journey Most of the time the reason why I've always switched away from it is because the ball I have bar problems, right? So X-mone ad has a bar that they prefer you to use with it. It's called XMO bar The first time I tried to use it I did actually get to show up like that was like months ago But I couldn't get my head around Haskell at the time So I switched back to DWM or whatever it was on the time and and just recently I decided you know I'm gonna switch to X-mone ad again and I'm gonna give it a real go like I'm gonna switch to it That's all I'm gonna use for a whole month. Well, first of all, that was a lie Soon after doing that video I switched back to DWM So I actually did my video the other day on shot cut in DWM, but that's just because I couldn't get the Bar to work so I could I can't get XMO bar to show up at all Like not even a little bit and I don't know why like It has no clue I even went through and took my custom config that I've been trying to just build myself and Downloaded DT's config and tried to use his that didn't work So I was like when you want obviously something else is wrong So I went on Unix porn found someone else who's been doing X-mone ad downloaded their files and used theirs And there's X more X mobar still wouldn't work So I don't have any clue what's going on with X-mobar. So then yesterday. I said you want to fuck it I'm just gonna use poly bar So and I had probably by working before and you know, it was fine But I couldn't edit it like I've made changes to the config file and it wouldn't make any changes like at all So I can make change of size that can add modules nothing even like restarting X-mone ad even restarting next monad logging out logging back in shutting the computer down shutting it back on Nothing, it wouldn't it wouldn't make any changes to the configuration file at all It also wasn't reading from the auto start file that I was using so I don't know what the hell is going on there It's very weird So I was like, you know what? Screw this I'm gonna distro hop. So I downloaded the latest arch arch installer or arch iso And I was like, you know, I'm gonna try the new arch installer that comes comes on the iso Yeah, it worked fine. You know, I got into I got into arch and you know Managed to install GNOME, which I decided on GNOME because It uses gdm by default instead of light dm and light dm does not work with arch anymore. So I use it for about an hour and It was Buggered and shit. So it was just so buggy I don't know what was going on. I'm assuming I missed some dependencies somewhere along the line and some things were just not, you know Working out well. So I was like, you know screw this. I'm going back to Arco. Just like I knew I probably would And so I had the Arco installer with X monad on it So it was the the Arco Linux X monad thing and got that in there and it's working fine. It's I I Gave up on XMO bar and the poly bar in the Arco Linux one works fine It will it let me edit it and everything and I've been using it since last night It was working fine until obviously we decided to do the podcast and find out that for whatever reason The way that OBS goes through and captures the video You have to have the video on screen all time for OBS to capture it And that would mean not being able to look at links or anything, you know while we're doing the podcast so Long story short, I'm on DWM right now and pretty happy about it. So I'll eventually make a video on X monad again, I'm gonna go back to it after we're done here and you know I'm gonna keep trying because You know people say oh if you use DWM, you'll love X monad so far. I haven't been loving X monad, but Let's see. It's great to hear you talk about it because there are like No, there's really no one out there like voicing like hey I'm having like some real issues setting up and using X monad. Everyone's just like it's great No one talks about it. Yeah, like oh, it was good I just downloaded DT's configs and popped them in my config folder and it's perfectly fine. No, that's not the way it works I'm sorry. It doesn't um or at least that's not the way it worked for me. I mean I'm sure I'm sure I'm a hundred percent Positive that whatever I'm doing wrong is My problem like this isn't a problem with X monad. It's not a problem with Haskell It's not a problem with DT's configs It's not a problem with my configs or articles configs. It's a hundred percent a me problem, right? Me being stupid or a noob or somewhere along the line or just missing something. Yeah There's a dependency or something that I'm just missing I'm like, I'm a hundred percent sure that that's the case but that being said X monad's stupid. Yeah Like I can't I did I don't I don't know It has been What now go ahead like it has been fun Messing around with it like in troubleshooting and trying to get done, but it's also been incredibly frustrating So, um, I don't know it's it's gonna get another week for me And if I don't see a benefit to using it another week I don't know because because it I love DWM so much. It's gonna have to X monad's gonna have to be really super great To get me to switch way and so far the problems have definitely not made it seem, you know, super great Yeah And it's it's fair to talk about it Like that like I mean it There's just I don't know to me. It's nice to hear someone talking about X monad and voicing the same Like for me, I never even I never even got into it because like I mean like you said that you've run into problems with X monad not only is Haskell a thing like it's just Not Not I mean it's it's Haskell is honestly just as complicated to get into as getting into DWM is like, you know Like when you don't know anything about source code or c or anything or like make file or like how to make programs stuff like that Like it's just as complicated like So I don't I don't know like no one's out there talking about yeah, I had problems with X monad you only hear the people who are like It's fantastic. Yeah This time around I've had better luck with Haskell because I I think because when I first tried it I just started using DWM So I hadn't learned very much about DWM And I hadn't had months of experience going through and trying to figure out how to patch things and You're learning a little bit of c and tinkering and stuff again So I have more experience with the learning languages now So I had a much easier time with Haskell. I will say this Haskell is way better than lua So I had I had a hell of a time Not I gotta remember I only spend like two hours or something like that with it, but when I install awesome there on this stream uh lua's just I mean I can't I can't give a head around lua and like everybody says like lua's better than Haskell, but I don't think that's true Now I would take c over Haskell or lua any day Yeah, and c is a weird program language too. So um, honestly the the the language I prefer out of all of them is q tile With that you just p you just python Yeah, I agree Though my problem with q tile is that you can only have nine window man window work spaces now There's somebody in the comments that's gonna say what man. I've told you four times now. You can do more than nine workspaces I can't figure it out. Okay. I've googled it. Okay google says There's not so and also Fuck you phone Well, um It's it's funny because like as a vocal as I am about loving q tile. I mean i'm on dwm right now I I do I since I've started using dwm I really have just fallen in love because As long as you don't over patch it as long as you're as you like as long as you like dwm with just maybe one or two patches in there It's fantastic. Yeah, I had twice and done Yeah, I think I have five patches and that's really as many as you want to patch it Five is really kind of pushing like there are two more patches that I really really want I want to be able to go through and have key bindings for every single workspace that I have all 18 of them Uh, and there's there's a there's a patch for that and I also would like to go through and have it so that each Workspace has like its own icon or own name or whatever And um, I can't get them to patch. I they just even going through and manually adding the code in like manually patching them I can't get it done Um, now i'm assuming if I went through and like did those patches first Mm-hmm You're like with a fresh install I could probably be done But then I had to leave out some of the other patches that I like, you know always center or Attaching bottom or whatever and you know and those things are more important to me than you know Just adding an extra key binding to switch monitors. Yeah You so a lot of you want you want like 18 dedicated shortcuts for for switching through your workspaces Okay, so one of the best parts about i3 I like I love i3 it was my first window manager and on in i3 I have super one through through zero attached to all the work spaces on The first monitor and then I have control one through zero To have for all of the workspaces on the second monitor. So I have that's pretty smart I have 20 workspaces in i3 and it's so easy to add them and I feel like I wish it was that way And every single work, you know window manager, but it's just you know super one through zero changes online and And just adding the shift key will move the windows around Same key combinations. It's just It's easily the one thing I miss most about i3. Um, so There's a good chance eventually. I'll be switching back to i3, but I still do like dwm That is actually like at first I was very much like Really you want that many key ones for all your works like for all the workspaces on all the monitors Then even after you explain it. I'm like, wait, that makes a ton of sense. Like The thing I I know that's going to keep me from using x-mono. Let's just say I go through And really like x-mono, you know, I learned the haskell enough to actually get by I figure out my bar problems And I go through and rice it the thing that's going to keep me from using x-mono is the fact that there's only nine workspaces Um, that's the thing that drives me away from q-tile. It's the thing that's driven me away from probably x-mono I did that poll on on the channel not too long ago. Like everybody's like, oh, I only use one workspace I like how do you only use one workspace? It doesn't make any sense to me. What is wrong with you? Are you are you insane? I like right now I I just started I just lugged out lugged back in now And you you basically were here with me through that I'm using one and six on the first month I'm using one three six and nine and I don't have most of the stuff I have usually open so like usually I have Libre office open on on two on this monitor And I have you know nemo open up on eight and new or my on one and uh Yeah I just have all I have like 19 workspaces and like half of them are full. Yeah all all times I mean my my workspace is like I I'm not going to go through but I got plenty filled. I've got essentially five workspaces on each monitor Like with stuff going on. I don't understand how someone's like, how do you use a tiling window manager? Like I could understand a floating where you've just got them all stacked over each other And that's just how you use your computer But like in a tiling window manager if you're using just one workspace How oh, yeah, like when when I was a kde user, I never used workspaces at all Like we just stacked Windows on top of each other and that's just the way you do it Once you go tiling you almost have to use workspaces because you You can only split the screen up so many times before you have to use the different workspace Like yeah, like I will only put two two programs or two apps on the same Workspace like I don't really want anything more than every once in a while. I'll do three but three is the I mean Some people you see like have like nine or ten terminals on their one You know workspace like what are you doing? You can't read anything there. You're not exactly Like I mean we are going to get that comment from that one like weirdo out there He's got like some like 38 inch or like for practically like tv sized ak monitor Who's like, yeah, I've got so much screen real estate. Of course. I use just one workspace. Yeah I mean I have I have big monitors. I have like two 27 inch monitors and these are perfectly fine I desperately want a third monitor because they had to give me even more workspaces Well, I mean it'd be great to be able to have you know firefox on one and then obs over here and I'll uh audacity on the one that'd be so good, but I just don't have room for it. Um But yeah, yeah, I I don't want anything bigger. I mean it's I've seen I've seen like if I had like 148 inch I guess because it'd be the same size as these but Yeah I just spent 20 minutes on the intro of the show That's how it's going. I warned you at the beginning that this was gonna be the most disorganized Score I had I kept my word. All right, so let's jump into the content information You can follow us on twitter at the Linux cache. You can follow me at on twitter at the mtwb Tyler is one of those he learns that's not on twitter, but you can follow him on Uh, youtube at the official, you know, he's on Odyssey at the official zany. You can also follow us. I follow him on youtube in the linked below Um, make sure you give him a follow because he has a ton of awesome videos You can subscribe to us and all of our audio feed and stuff with the linuxcast.org You can contact us via email at the linuxcast at gmail.com and support us on patreon at patreon.com slash linuxcast I should take a moment to thank your current patrons Sven, Donnie, Mitchell, Magland, Camp, Merrick, Marcus and Devin Not in order. Just I thank everybody Um Because for whatever reason patreon doesn't sort these in order weird. Okay. Anyways, and also support us or uh, ultra I can't thought we're good to have You can also follow some youtube at youtube.com slash linuxcast This I say every single week that section needs to get shorter All right, take the breath out of you Let's just I try to get through it as fast as possible Like we could do it at the end, but then just people would stop listening So that's that's the reason why I would do it in the middle. Um anyways So let's move on to the news links of the week the news links of the week So every week we each choose a link that is news and we share it with each other So taylor, what was your news link this week? So mine was on the new like plasma mobile update And I found it to be really interesting Just because they they had some cool snapshots in here just of it and I thought the Especially the the music amp in it looks really good like Really good and apparently this update does come with um, some m performance improvements, which as far as I know Stuff like the pine phone desperately needs distros Come out with some more performance improvements Yeah, I saw a youtube video of somebody using this on their pine phone. It was slow Yeah, that's That's what kills me like I'd love I'd love to get something like the pine phone Because I mean the pine phone's like that at that perfect price point like two to three hundred dollars but um The leap room five I mean, it's just it's like 500 bucks and it I think I You know, it's like the size of a brick too, right? Yeah, that's the one that's like even I mean the pine phone's not a thin phone but the the labor fine Maybe I'm thinking about like a couple years ago, but it was like no it's bad The lever in five is a fatty boy. It's thick But yeah, I just wish they would Keep doing what they're doing come come out with more performance improvements. Uh, and I don't want to say that we need better hardware for for these types of distros to be like not just Not just really cool, but like be extremely usable um, but Maybe we do because I I really don't see how They can't get performance to be As good as they can on those devices with as long as they've been out like the pine phone's not new So they've had plenty of time for performance improvements. I mean, I know cunt. They're going to be constantly coming, but um This article here. I just it got me thinking more about the um, the linux phone Like market in general and How it's getting better, but I I wish it was getting better faster. I want a linux phone desperately Yeah, I don't know if I want a linux phone or not like Really like I'm the biggest linux fanboy you ever gonna meet And my biggest problem with the linux stuff is that's gonna even if they get the performance stuff figured out and I they will Right. I mean, it's definitely they will they keep working on it Uh, the biggest problem is going to be apps for me, right? Because I use a ton of proprietary stuff You know on my phone, you know, you know gmail and There's a ton of stuff. I mean that in games, right? I mean the phone's the biggest thing where I do any gaming so Oh, really? Okay. So you play Uh, quite a bit of games on your phone. Yeah mobile games. They got clash of clans and you know A ton of stupid time wasting games that are just dumb And that stuff that's never gonna come to No, yeah Now the ones that are more interesting are the ones where like, um, the ones that like the east that slash e thing that is Basically android But just they've taken all the google stuff out of that because that can run apks from the play store Yeah, um Now it won't work very well because a lot of the stuff that you know has like Pay walls or like they're paid apps. So you can't get those apps. But um, at least that has some potential like, um, Lineage also has like can use the play store. So but I will I will go ahead and say The problem with those types of android like os's Is removing the google play services will break a lot of those like I mean you're talking about clash of clans Like I'm 99% sure that usage google play services I'm sure like on the slash e stuff a lot of that stuff is not going to work with but at least at least there you have some access to some of the android stuff um now there are there are like, uh There are, um lost the word Uh Fuck sake projects Projects is the fucking word. There are projects out there that allow you to run android apps on linux Um, so if they can get those to work so that you can also use them on something like plasma mobile That'd be really cool. Um Well, but just to shoot down like so you said google email couldn't you use thunderbird? On like a linux. That was just one that I one that I mentioned. I mean, there's just there's tons of We want to I see like because like when I've thought about it when it comes to my linux phone Now the gaming point is uh, that's a big one. Like I agree with you there. That's not that's a big one Spotify is probably not going to be on there right away. Okay. Yeah true true There's tons of shopping and food apps on there that I have on there Tons of social like instagram and you know like facebook you could probably go and just use the web version But yeah instagram they have a web version, but you can't post to it. Um true same thing thing with like, um I don't know Dang it man. You're you're shooting down my arguments Right. I mean, we're gonna have podcasts apps and stuff on there that which eventually show up, but there are just these other little Little apps that you just use all the time that is never ever going to come there, right? And I mean it's taken 35 40 years now for linux to get to the point where we have Apps on linux like the desktop linux. They can actually go say you want to I can switch away from windows And use links full-time and not have any problems with anything like um, obviously there's a transition period and learning curve or whatever but If I don't The the mobile market moves so fast I don't know if they have 35 or 40 years to get to the point where they can actually go through and you know Wait for actually compete. Yeah Because by the time you get to the 35 40 years from now, we're not going to be using cell phones I mean, we're going to have things implanted into our brains Flying cars. They've been promising us flying fucking cars forever. We're going to have them dammit We need them. We deserve them All right, um, so my link was this whole thing going on with the University of minnesota first of all big 10 school So you really can't be surprised that they're shady as fuck. I'm just saying And that's coming from, you know, my alma mater's mission might I can not talk with a dam alma mater You can talk. I went to michigan state. So I'm a product of a big 10 school but So, uh, I'm not going to go through. I mean chances are if you're in the linux sphere, you've heard of this thing basically, uh, University of minnesota and Specifically some grad students and a professor went through and submitted a whole bunch of faulty Insecure patches to the linux kernel. They got caught Uh, basically what they were trying to do is penetration testing and basically the Rule number one of penetration testing is that you don't do it anonymously. You ask permission from someone Somewhere that is the most basic of like any professor that should like if he's going to teach a course On penetration testing. That's the most basic. That's not just the 101 That's like the first sentence that they explained. Yeah, it's like the title of the freaking textbook is what it is Right. Yeah, you always ask somebody the whole company doesn't have no like the the whole like everybody Every maintainer didn't have to know they were going to be tested but you go to like you want to say, hey linus We'd like to test something and see how secure the process is and you know, he's either going to say fuck you Or he's gonna let you do it, right? Yeah, and then he that way when you get caught You don't have to go through and have these problems of looking like you're doing something wrong because you want you have permission from the dude Exactly. And they didn't even have to be linus. It could have been this greg kh guy or any of the other maintainers Anyone could have talked to just anyone. Um, so who I mean Like I said, the link's gonna be in the show notes but basically if you haven't heard the linux the University of Minnesota is now banned from committing to the linux kernel like probably not forever but for until they've gone through and regained the trust of the the The linux community so they're kind of screwed because I mean I mean when you're studying computer science One of the things that you probably gonna focus on especially if you're gonna looking for those kind of certifications and stuff Is stuff to do with the linux kernel and linux development and stuff like that And now you can't do anything unless you do it outside of you know your School email domains and chances are they'll probably find you out then too. So yeah, and um as far as I know like I I'm pretty sure that schools work on like at least most Curriculums I believe like in schools Require you to like on projects to use your school like address for stuff to be able to like track, you know What's your what you're doing and how you did it and stuff like that? So I don't I I don't know how big of an issue this is for the school like internally and the students but it has to be A problem at the very least a problem if not a big one Well, yeah, it's gonna be the students that get punished for us basically and not probably not that one professor that decided Oh, this is a good idea. Yeah I mean it makes zero. I mean the the Regardless of the amount of work that it caused for the linux maintainers In the end This is just a huge ordeal for the school because it makes them look very in net and like And just the they don't have the ability to teach It makes their review board or whatever that reviewed the process Because the the professor did go to our review board. Granted. He went to it after he'd already done the research So I mean that's first of all I don't think that that's processed the way you're supposed to go through and get things proved But he did the review board said it was you know perfectly fine And then he said obviously the the professor thought it was perfectly fine. So, you know It makes him look like a dumbass. I mean, yeah, because I mean it makes zero sense because I mean insecure like everything I know about penetration testing there is there or or any type of Test like this a security test You have to get permission beforehand like In any case, there's not an argument You can't try to hack into a bank right without permission and say well When you get caught say, oh, no, I was just trying to test your firewall. I was doing you a favor Like no, you were trying to steal all the money Yeah Like and the the argument they used like so, um, I I did a video on it, but the the their apology letter like they after the apology they they go through and like Maybe their argument is they're not justifying it, but it's very clear They're justifying what they did and I'm like for one if you just if you if you apologize Then immediately start like justifying or like giving good reasons for why you did what you did You just ruined the apology in the first place But in the apology like they It's weird because they they use the excuse of well if we Told you it would it would change how they looked at it and That's that's not an argument like in any other case where you're where you're doing any type of testing Like you can't make that argument or doing a study or anything. It's still not an ethical excuse like You have to talk to somebody Well, right. That's the thing. I was like, you know, you never have to tell everybody. I mean, obviously. Yes If you told everybody that would ruin the experiment um, that's that's a reasonable argument, but the that's You have to Get permission always like I said, it's just an attack. It's it's it's you You're you're just being an asshole so yeah That's definitely dumb, but I have a feeling That this is not a one-off thing. I bet you there are other universities that said that this was, you know, okay um And probably just didn't get caught or or at least hadn't done it yet or something So maybe this there's some good that will come out of this and saying you want to hey, you want to maybe First of all, we'll we'll follow the ethics and rule book of of Testing and maybe the linux kernels guys will actually learn some things too like, um, you know They'll go through and somehow revamp the process a little bit so that maybe some of this stuff doesn't get through So easily like a lot of this stuff got caught like in the email threads and stuff, but you know some of it didn't so Yeah, I know a big problem of it too is like just they weren't really focusing on them because they were a school So like, you know that type of thing just Yeah, you know, you don't you don't expect malicious software to come from minnesota. I mean Minnesota is basically canada and Canada canada is supposedly really nice. So obviously the minnesota people are really nice. I mean, this is the way it's supposed to be um That's like the the faultiest logic Like minnesota is close to canada. So it's basically canada. So can and canada is nice. So obviously minnesota is nice Yeah But that being said Still, I mean it sounded better in my head. Okay Uh, we do have to move on to the It doesn't know we're we're uh An almost an hour into this and we're just getting to the main topic. I'm just saying this is All right, tyler, this was your topic. So tell us what we're talking about. I still have no clue Automatic updates in in linux good or bad um I want to hear your opinion the things that like um The linux meant think people were talking about doing. Mm-hmm. Yeah Would you immediately switch distros if whichever distro you use decided to start doing automatic updates? If I couldn't turn it off. Yes um, all right, so I guess it'd depend. All right, so First of all what I said first stands, right as long as you can turn it off I think it's still kind of dumb, but I can understand it But it makes a whole lot more sense on linux mint Then it does like say let's say arch linux decided they were going to do this That is everybody else right because arch linux is not i've uh, uh, is not a user or a new user Distro it's meant for people who actually have used linux before right so yeah I I think the whole con I think the context is important for for linux mint who who are specifically targeting new users Automatic updates is probably a good thing But I do think like I said that it needs to be able to be turned off. So like Ubuntu has automatic updates already. They've had it for two or three years And I don't think anybody I'm chances are if you use ubuntu You probably don't even know Because they installed the security updates in the background. They never tell you like it's just done um But everything that's bigger and stuff like that they'll obviously they'll ask you I think that that's kind of shady like of it They have that welcome screen or whatever where they ask you if you are okay sending information back to canonical I think they should also on that thing ask you hey, you want do you want us to do security updates in the background? Yes or no You can you can have the yes checkbox check it all by default But it's still something that you should ask even so you are fine with opt in like Or um, the opt out like mentality I think as long as you know about it as long as they're up front and say you want hey We're going to do this and we're going to have it turned on by default. You can turn it off um If you want to and You know we think that this is important So we're going to put it right. We're just going to be right in your face about it and say hey, this is what we're going to do Uh, this is how this is how you turn it off Uh, you know even just give like right at the I mean all these things have welcome screens Just put it right in a welcome screen say you know We prefer you to do security updates to keep your computer secure this this This functionality is on by you know default If you prefer not to Here's the off button Yeah, it's literally all they have to do now. Like I said that makes sense on ubuntu and it makes sense in linux mint Outside of those two distros. I don't think it makes sense at all. Like yeah, so Um, even the other flavors of ubuntu I don't think this that it makes sense because those those are much more focused on people who have used links before I think or at least at the way I feel or or at least they've used ubuntu like they've used ubuntu They've gotten familiar with it and they're like I want something a little bit. I want to try me or I want to try I'm like a chance that those people are at least a little bit more experienced with linux and in which case it should be off by default and Maybe then maybe they can still prompt you to turn it on Uh, but I feel like those people should be more Have more control over their things than like a new user. So like I just switched my dad to ubuntu And I turned because he hate one of the things he hated about his windows install was Asked him to do updates all the time. I guess what everybody hates, you know to do updates on windows I mean the number one reason was why windows sucks That's also why so many people who use windows are running a out of date. Um Windows version with like plenty of security holes in it Well, so like just don't want to do it windows 10 now won't let you actually run an out of date thing If you would if you run windows 10 It keeps you up to date whether you want to or not you can delay updates for like seven days But after that you have to do that like whether you want to or not I think they're even aware of that Yeah, I now if linux went that far so like when this linux meant thing came out They made it sound like because they used the word insist Oh, yeah, they They said they were gonna obviously this is paraphrasing, but they said they were going to develop a Way of doing automatic updates and we're going to insist that people do them insist and that's That insist implies force Yeah, and that's that's that I think when this the the linux meant thing first came out that pissed a lot of people off I did a video on it. Um And I can understand that why I think that was mostly that was just a Language thing like they shouldn't have used that word. That's because it's not really what they were going to do They're they're developing a mess a mechanism similar to what a boom to does that does automatic updates, but you can easily turn it off But I think that if linux went through and say you want to we're doing the updates whether you fucking luck it or not Uh, everybody's not gonna like it. We'd all find whoever made that decision and lynched them in the street Yeah, I I don't think that see like that's that's the The freak out I think everyone had over automatic updates was strictly to do with the wording there and the thought that Okay, well now linux is going to force me to do an update which I will give linux this much even in an environment where like somehow the linux community is like We want automatic updates and we like them forced on us like even in that type of world At least when you're doing an update on a linux system As long as the distro doesn't for some reason decide to do this You can still use the operating system and when it's done It's not a forced reboot and needs to do more afterwards. Like there's none none of that crap. So like I mean, even if that world existed where we all wanted that I it would still be better than windows, but I don't think anyone's petitioning for that type of reality. Yeah, I don't think I don't think so either Like I said, I don't think linux meant was doing that either. I think they were More focused on the fact that well, you want to know what there are still people using versions of linux mints that are four years old And these things have Severe security support and we don't want to support these things forever So we're gonna set up a mechanism where things are updated automatically Uh But you know, you have the ability to turn it off The I think the only snag that they're gonna face is if they don't put it Up front, you know, like yeah, because they're making this change You know If they do it in the background, then it's kind of shady, right? As long as they put it up front and say you aren't here. We're doing this Turn it off if you want to I think I think that's perfectly fine Now like I said be earlier if this was arch Fuck off leave me to do my own right? That's gotta fly like I want to I I do my updates once every nine days And that's how often I'll do them I manage my updates. I don't want anyone else doing it for me. Exactly. I don't But in the in the linux disc or linux meant and like Ubuntu world though not Most people who are using that distro aren't You know, they picked it in the first place because it was stable And it wasn't going to have any problems and a lot of people who use it I mean like let's be honest most linux people like us install it for family members And they just use it on and off and not everybody has You know, like like my mom is a unique scenario where she literally has me around all the time So her ubuntu install gets updates even though it just pops up and asks her from time to time Hey, do you want to do an update immediately closes? It never does it. I do it for Not everyone does that. When I switched my dad to ubuntu, I turned that notification off I said never check for updates. Um, because I know it would just piss him off, right? Yeah, we just make it mad. So I went through and just you know, I turn that off and you know Once every six months or whatever I'll go through and do to do an update, you know, it won't be a big deal Um, because I mean all he does is put together jigsaw puzzles and watch youtube videos It's not as if he's on there doing online making or trading stocks or whatever Yeah, he doesn't need any security Yeah Yeah, he like he has no personal information on there at all and his email address that he uses is in a fake name So he's perfectly fine. You know, so yeah My mom does her banking on it. So I like to keep it updated just so she doesn't have an update like or an out of date browser Um, and the good thing about her is we've turned it into a joke with how many times she can close an update window Because like any Ubuntu I um, you can set the like Time period that you're going to get like like it'll check for updates and stuff And so like she gets on I think I think it's like once a week or something like that It's not like a crazy one But the amount of times like I'll I'll check in on it's been a couple months since I've checked in on the laptop And she's like, yep, haven't haven't done an update. Just nope. I see the updates don't want to do them I was like It always cracks me up with her because I'm like, well, you could just press the update and then just do something else No, no That's too much I think when when you're like that you just you're worried that you're gonna break something you and when you're not like I mean, I gotta call Our parents Luddites because they're not they use computers, but they don't if something goes wrong They're not gonna know how to fix it. So they're worried about that scenario and that's perfectly okay Because half the time when I do updates I break things You know, so I mean This kind of crap happens to everybody. Um, you know, I was thinking the The new way of doing like the way ubuntu does updates in terms of like security and stuff I think that that it would be it is kind of the perfect way for like New you new linux distros or new user focused links is supposed to do it Um, but I don't remember when they went through and did that if they did that Just behind the scenes because I think I feel like they did like they didn't just like I don't feel like they went through and Said hey, you know, I mean only like people like you and me would know that they went through and did the said we're going to turn Automatic updates on but like your mom and my dad We're never gonna figure that out like they have no clue, right? So, um I was thinking if when linux make a third goes through and does as they decided to do it in the background Maybe that's a good thing I mean, maybe see that's the thing maybe like I mean because If for that type of user if they went through and after an update and then you know Sometimes after an update you get the welcome screen again if they went through and said, you know, we're all of a sudden doing this that Maybe cause some upset amongst those type of people who don't understand why Uh, these these things are going to be doing being done in the background especially like I feel like there The thing about ubuntu that sort of makes sense and in the way that they Didn't make it like a public like opt-in thing or just like automatic updates like labeling it like that when it's clearly just for security things and put in the background they Ubuntu is that weird use case where there's enough people that aren't familiar with exactly how The computer even works at all. So Maybe that is a good like a good way of not confusing a large portion of their user base Yeah, it's it's like doing something nefarious for the greater good. Oh god Yeah, it's dumbledore Um I don't I don't know it's interesting moral quandary because you want as many people to update as possible And the autumn it'd be so tempting for these distros to say you want to we're just going to do the updates in the background Through this we're going to take control So it'd be so I mean that's basically what windows has done, right? They've gone through and said you want to we got so sick of people using internet explorer six for 10 years We're just updating everybody you get no choice um, yeah I feel and I hope and I'm pretty sure That linux is never going to go that extreme But at the same point you they still gonna want to keep as many people At least in terms of the security updates updated as much as much as possible So they're there's the whole idea of a happy middle ground there somewhere Where that I still feel being upfront about it probably is the best way to go about it Say hey, you know, we're gonna do this You know, here's how you turned off kind of thing uh But I don't think I necessarily have a horrible problems with Certain distros that are meant for new users again Doing it in the background even without telling anybody Um as odd as that sounds it does it does sort of makes sense like it feels like the most anti-foss thing I've ever said and it probably is But right but you know, it just You you can't The most of the people who will be affected by it would be new users And those people aren't ever going to do updates on their own anyways Now again, I as long as long as there's a way to turn it off because whoever installed Linux for them in the first place can at least turn that stuff off and they would know better So, um, I don't know. It's it's uh, like I said, it's an interesting moral Yeah Thanks, I mean I I foresee plenty of new users seeing automatic updates and assuming it means Programs everything computer's gonna have to reboot after it and just changes like I mean you get past 50 or 60 years old You hate change with a passion of a thousand burning suns. You cannot Stand the fact that something changes. Um, and you never ever ever want something to change And it's especially true with anything technological, right? I mean you can understand with you know Something in the real world changes because stuff like that, you know, whatever But when you're using a piece of technology that you don't understand in the first place Yeah, you just use because you want to go to yahu.com and you understand That part of the technology thing, but you don't understand anything else You don't want a new start menu to pop up. You don't want gonna afford it all of a sudden show up Hey, my icons are over here the other day and all of my icons are down here You don't even watch your like panel to like change the tint. It is like you don't want new icons You don't want anything any change is bad. Um, and we'll be like that someday tyler We'll be like that sadly we will Like I'm kind of like that now. I don't want anything to change unless I change it. Yeah, okay I want that I want that changing control. So that's that's I mean, that's the biggest thing about If you're gonna do automatic updates, it has to be just the security stuff It can't be new big features because it would that would That would know when that's just gonna work for people because like I said, it's it's gonna be that It's gonna be that type of person. I mean they're not they're not even old people I mean, I said older people but um I mean, there's 20 there's 20 year olds. I know who are like Scared of messing with a mac because they might break stuff and I'm like Literally designed to be easy to break a mac. I mean, I have no idea Okay, um, let's go ahead and talk about our apps the week tyler. What's your app of the week this week? my app of the week I started the podcast off talking about irc. So it's hex chat, which is a really nice irc client Um, I I've been using it's great. Um I mean, it's as simple as an irc chat client I feel like not just can be but should be it's it's nothing special. It's not too crazy. Um, and uh One good thing that I will say about it is it's It's nice to have an irc chat because I have been going back and forth with quite a few people in irc chat It doesn't use dunce or anything to send you notifications So you don't get but like barraged with notifications. Um through a chat client, which Oddly enough, I'm super thankful for even though like I I'll if I'm doing something else, it'll take me a while to respond. I just won't know Yeah, I've needed to or or anything or seen anything I'm not getting like 15 notifications every five minutes And that is a very very generous estimate at how many I would be getting through irc So I don't know. Um, do you use um irc at all? One time Um, I just didn't see and like maybe it was just because I was in the wrong like rooms or whatever, but I just didn't see as much activity on there as like I spend most of my time with that that kind of stuff in like telegram I like I pervert the telegram groups, but because it just feels more modern stuff, but um Yeah, I didn't spend much time I did a video on it and then I kind of left it behind Now speaking of telegram, I've had quite a few people try and get like now are getting me off a telegram like Don't use telegram. Like you shouldn't use telegram. It's centralized and proprietary and But telegram's open source. I mean, I don't understand. I got to understand telegram is completely open source as far as I know It's so here's the thing. It's open source, but um, the telegram server software is not so like And they also store Everything in apparently plain text documents as far as I could tell or as far as I was told Put it that way So Apparently signal is way like way better than telegram, but it's horrible. That's new to me exactly exactly Martin I use signal for a little while and it just the app and Linux is just so I mean It's an open source project and you think that that would mean that their open source app on Linux would be, you know Good, but it's it's not it's not good. It's it's really bad Like Especially on like Tyler It's not so bad if you're using like a desktop environment, but if you're on a tiling window manager and you try to like make it smaller It's like not responsive. So it actually cuts stuff off. It's it's not good. We end up switching to what's that? That's how bad that was. Um, because because he wouldn't use telegram. So or we had problems with telegram I don't even really really remember. Um, but I use telegram all the time like We talked about proprietary software before like I don't Not as if I'm going to go through me, you know telling state secrets or giving banking information over telegram. So I don't really I don't know if I I don't know about the whole storing things in plain text thing if that's true. That's kind of scary, but um If that's I mean, I I don't see how that I mean If that's again, like that's what I told people I'm like I use telegram just to talk to you about the podcast like if if our entire like text chain like or like Entire chat just became public The worst thing would be like, oh no, they just have my audio of the podcast or like it wouldn't be that bad Like it did. There's nothing really private that I'm worried about In using telegram like I feel like there's and my my argument was the same thing with discord if you're not worried about Stuff like, you know, like if you're just using it and you wouldn't care if it became public I don't really see a problem with that, but That was my app of the week. Heck hex chat and high rc All right, so mine is also in kind of an oldie, but a goodie is news about so I've been trying to be a little bit more Uh cohesive in terms of taking news in instead of going I'm visiting the verge four times a day visiting, you know, these things all the time Just kind of want one place to check all the news Kind of all the time. So I've kind of gotten back into the whole rss thing. So I I installed the news But I've used it before several times and it's really good. So if you you like a terminal based RSS feed reader news boat is probably the best solution There are gooey options for stuff like this But if you're a nerd like me and you prefer using things in the terminal news boat is kind of awesome um now In terms of using rss on mobile, I haven't found a good one yet. So that's something that I'm still looking for The problem with a lot of the rss feed readers on like android Is they're either ad based and there's nothing wrong with being ad-based The problem comes in when you're Pushy with your ads like you put them all over the damn place and you can't dismiss them Like I'll pay for your app if it's good to get rid of the ads A lot of them won't even do that. So um That I've actually never even tried getting rss on my phone I don't even know the quality of of apps that you get there. So that's It's interesting to hear that there aren't any good options. iPhone has one has apps that are way better But that's just kind of true across the board. Yeah Apple does that good good good job of curating their their apps and making sure that they get uh Get developers if you're gonna make something niche, that's fine. But it has to be quality. Well then people developers more willing to develop for iOS because uh You know people actually make money on iOS and on an android. You don't make any money I can like you can make money if as long as you're like, you know EA If you're just a random Really small developer. It's really a lot harder to develop on Android and make cash without using like an abundance of ads, right? Because people on android just are a million times less willing to Pay for this Unless they're in-app purchases for clash of clans in which case I've spent way too much money And I'm talking hundreds of dollars. It's it's what it's dumb. I gotta remember I've been playing it now for 10 years Oh, okay. Okay. It's over. It's over a course of 10 years and I've had two accounts I like I I met I maxed out one account. You know, I'm starting over again So and I don't do it all the time like I spent 20 dollars Every three months or something. That's not it. Yeah, it's not something horrible. It's usually when they have a sale They're having a sale. I've got to buy it's on sale. All right Holy shit, that was a long effing podcast um But it was a good one. It was I told you rabbit holes and we gave you rabbit holes Yeah, there were good rabbit holes too. Yes, we talked about some good stuff now coming up Next week, we're gonna be oh It's gonna be a good one. We're gonna talk about mint or a boot to which one is better for noobs That's gonna be the topic for next week. Oh people are gonna get heated in the comments over it. Yes um, and and there's gonna be that one Jerk in the comment section named Matt who says use arch. It's better for everybody His arch Beginners on arch. Everyone starts off with arch. Dude. It's pronounced manjaro. Okay All right, anyways, that's coming up next week. Thank you for watching. Thank you for listening Subscribe and like see you next week See you