 Hello and welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today I have on someone everyone knows Mr Terry Keating aka Bonzolium Terry welcome to the podcast. Hey Bart, how are you? Thanks for having me. I really really appreciate it Oh, sure my pleasure as I mentioned your YouTube channel is just absolutely one of the best drum related YouTube channels out there. Obviously, it's John Bonham related You are you and George Flutus and I'm sure a couple other guys or girls really know their stuff with Bonzo and George was just on doing his Bonham episode because you know, why not have George and I'm excited to have you on today though to not talk about Bonham But let me say first off congrats on your success with YouTube like 60,000 subscribers. It's pretty amazing, you know I really appreciate that it's funny I I went from you know, it takes you forever to get a thousand then a little more forever to get like 5,000-10,000 but then I started to cruise pretty fast through like the 25 30 35 But then when I hit about 55,000 I just got I mean, I've been sort of it took me of like three or four years Good from 55,000 to 60,000. So I don't you know, maybe I just topped out Maybe we tapped out all the diehard Bonham Zeppelinites. I don't know, but it you know, I'm very grateful though I mean, I look and I see 60,000 subscribers for a 52 year old You know guy making you know, this is his bottom videos from his from his studio in the basement. Yeah. Yeah I'm very grateful. No, I I don't know why it is but I've had the same thing where you know early on with Instagram It was like 10,000 15,000 20,000 30,000 was a plateau and then fifth I've been on 50. I mean, you might be at the same number for like a year when you used to just Rocket But who knows? So anyway, I think this will be a cool one. So like I mentioned You were really known for this Bonham. Just Expert madness your plane everything is great. The channel is hysterical But we're gonna talk about some different stuff because you yourself are a drum collector You have been when we've talked on the phone a few times. It's very clear that You're from that generation of kind of pre-internet obviously The phone calls back and forth a lot of guys like John Aldridge and Rob Cook have talked about on the podcast a lot of like Just how it used to be so I want to kind of have you discuss a little bit and share You know the way it was And all that good stuff. So so let's jump in here Terry and why don't you tell people? How did you get into? Collecting vintage drums of any kind well a little later than Probably I wish I'd done it a little earlier because and you know, you know back in the 80s people were giving away stuff like I had the first drum set ever got Actually was a friend of mine His his drum set and he had like two rack toms that were Jerry rigged to a hi-hats stand the floor tom and a snare drum So what I used to do is I used to put a towel a lot Ringo on the actually on off all the drums Although I didn't realize Ringo did it so they were just so loud and then I would play with my right hand The floor tom is the bass drum and then the sarah so like so my right hand would go back and forth between the floor tom and the Saratum like While my left hand kept time. Yeah, and an old crud symbol I had so in those days and This would have been 1982 That was a couple years into a lot of American drummers that had all had their Rogers and Ludwig and Slingerlin and camco and You know these kids and we're started to all like rush towards Yamaha Pearl and Tama So they started just liquidating. I mean there was a paper in Chicago called the trading times and They're literally used to be pages like three or four pages of just drums and when I say a page I mean, you know, like so if you're looking at it and it's open There's two pages. Yeah, and then you'd see like and at the time I didn't know what the hell Rogers was I remember seeing like God, what is Rogers? You know what I mean? Yeah, and you'd see though in these ads I remember reading like, you know, the red onyx Rogers with matching dynasonic. I mean, I'm not kidding. Wow You know full sets of symbols $600, you know, I mean granted $600 in 1982 is probably like 1400 today But I mean it was so what happened was as I had Decided then to get my own set So I found an ad and there was for a Ludwig five-piece set my brother and I went But it was an old Japanese set where the cover the the the wrap had been taken off and had been spray painted black I didn't know and I didn't care. Yeah, so I paid $350 American 1982 for this hunk of shite Japanese build kit That you know, I mean I got thoroughly ripped off. Yeah to tell you the truth. I was so grateful to get my own kid I didn't care. I realized later that I'd get ripped off. So what happened was there's a few years went by And when I went off to college You know, I decided I'm like, you know, this I really would like a different set of drums So I just looked I was at the store and I was kind of looking around real fast And I saw you know, you know in those days You know to like nowadays you have all the companies that there's like like eight or six to eight almost like levels Maybe not that many but four or five or four lines And then the kind of lower then the medium sort of lower and then better than that better than that top the line And then thorough deluxe, you know in those days a lot of the companies just had, you know Like with Ludwig, they just had the you know the standards and then the regular, you know what I mean Yeah, and Ludwig got on board with the whole, you know Middle lines, you know the epic and the element of stuff a good almost 15 years later than the other companies did but Anyway, so I bought this kit and then I want another kid. So I saw a used set of Pearl exports, which I just bought and you know, those things could take a beat and you know In those days they had, you know, these drums were very solid and then I what had happened was I was watching I can't remember what it was. I was watching Ziggy Marley But I saw somebody playing an old green sparkle Ludwig kid. I remember thinking to myself like God, you know, wow You know, that's that's bonomy. Like I love bonum and everything. I was a huge supplement But I never really went down, you know, the big drum kits and stuff. I never really, you know I believe unbelievably maybe at that time. I really kind of didn't care so much about it So I thought to myself, you know, I'm gonna get myself a nice old Ludwig kid. You know what I mean? So I found this kid on trading times and this would have been 19 92 maybe And there was this lady on there and he was Josephine Alange And her husband had passed away about 20 years before and he had and she just got around it took her that long to get around To actually selling his drums and it was a 22 13 16 And I've said in another interview that it was a blue oyster pearl, but it was actually a sky blue And it was in it was in really nice shape and it was about 1965 ish The serial number was about, you know, 220 xxx, you know, and it came with the Superfonic a 5x14 Superfonic the hats were 15 inch Like six like late 50s early 60s Zildians that there was a crash that was a 17 inch What, you know, of course turned out to be a trance stamp Yeah, you know those days nobody really talked about like that. And then this ride was a formula 602 Medium ride So I got those and they were wonderful and they were so solid and they sounded so good and I left the original heads on them So I got that gave me sort of the bit by the the vintage bug. Yeah, I mean, that's a good first purchase there And it was sounds like a smooth transaction where if you're maybe if you're first, you know purchase You got first big purchase you got kind of screwed over that might have affected you but that sounds like a very nice You know, well, it's a nice little payback almost a decade later Yeah, definitely decade later and the funny thing was the 350 was the figure on that kitten 82 I bought the used Pearl experts for 350 and then I bought this Ludwig kid for 350 That's what she was asking But I sent her some money when I got I told her I was gonna send her some money because I didn't You know, I she was just a sweet lady and I was like, you know, I mean, I just knew even though I wasn't You know, I wasn't familiar, you know, what happens to John Aldridge used to publish You know, he had the not so modern drummer and there'd be buying sell ads there It was another fellow back in those days named Larry Levy really really nice guy He was to publish something called the sheet Which was like a buy and sell paper that you'd subscribe to and need mail you like once a month a letter of what people are looking for what they're selling and But I just knew even you know 1992 I thought to myself like well If I was gonna buy a brand new kid in those days, it would be at least, you know, so I just sent her another $300 That's nice. And you know, I wish I could have sent her more at the time I was still in college and stuff and yeah, but anyway, so not long after that I got I found a red sparkle club date and that was really really cool And then I found and I just went on from there Then I found like a blue oyster pearl then I found, you know, I found a cup You know over the years I found a couple black oyster kids and stuff But you know in those days it was kind of it was hit or miss it was really exciting And it would be you'd have a lot of highs and a lot of lows like, you know You'd call you you'd see an ad and the paper like, you know an old drum set for sale like trading times Or you know, sometimes then you'd look and you know, but more stabs sort of like newspapers where sometimes you'd see somebody selling a kit Yeah, you know and and you'd be so promising it would say like a black pearl Ludwig Drum set with old symbols and you know, you'd call and they'd say yeah, I got them and you'd do your best to have them Describe them to you, you know, they'd be like, yeah, it's pearly looking and the front head says Ludwig and you're like, yeah You know, you think you're in business you race out there and it's like a like a TKO drum set With an old Ludwig head on the front, you know, and you just drove an hour and a half. Yeah, which that's I mean Obviously we're gonna talk about how the internet changed things But that's the now you have photos and you can save that trip which I mean that's obviously a benefit of it, but I Mean clearly the internet changed things as far as like, you know Going to a pawn shop and getting lucky or like going somewhere because everyone has the internet I mean, that's true with any used stuff you buy where maybe they didn't know and a sweet old lady's one thing But sometimes you know, it's not a bad thing if someone, you know Just like a normal middle-aged guy is selling a drum set and maybe doesn't know what he have and you get a great deal Yeah, yeah, nothing wrong with that, you know Well, it's funny, you know George Flutus just the other day found something on Facebook who was there at Instagram I think it was Instagram Or somebody was selling a little kids drum set and he clicked on it And it was a small bop set. I think a grudge kit and the snare definitely was a progressive jazz Four by four three and a half or four by fourteen like a hundred and fifty bucks Wow, so you'll still see that kind of stuff Yeah, but you know the internet has made the market so much more efficient Yeah, I mean like it's up moves fast, you know, you really people see those pictures Everybody and their brother and sister and they you know, they're everybody's an expert kind of now So there's a lot of people scouring for it. Yeah But you know one thing I will say this and this is something that has always been the case It was the case back in the mid 80s the 90s the 2000s the 15s. There's something about the state of Wisconsin Where there's still to this day 2022 still old Ludwig kids coming out Like I the advice I would give a lot of people is always check The Wisconsin music arounds It's just crazy how stuff still just shows up there. It's just just out of the woodwork You know, that's interesting. Do you think that's the proximity to Chicago? Like Funny thing is is I just think that I don't know it could be a bunch of things and something is silly or not silly I mean this might sound, you know, I mean, you know, maybe there were just a lot of You know, I don't know like maybe German folk that were like well I'm gonna get myself a set of Ludwigs are gonna be Ludwigs. Yeah, I mean, I don't I don't know, you know Yeah, that's interesting. Well growing up. You'd never really see Rogers or you know, not that often grouchy You know, they were from, you know, Brooklyn or wherever they were from and New York and but you'd see just Ludwig all over the place And and still to this day. I'm telling you Wisconsin. It's just crazy You know, they had Faust music up there Milwaukee for a long time Yeah, that's an interesting point too of you know, this is kind of a it's the The theme of this episode is just collecting and I think that applies to like like tips and tricks to where I know that in my experience of You know, I'll be at buying drums or whatever you're looking for Just searching outside of your main your 25 mile radius that you can select on things I mean, that's a really important thing of maybe, you know, the next guy is not doing that Maybe they're just looking, you know, well, you know, here's a couple things and it's getting less and less so now because a lot of the People now like your 70 year old person now Was 50 sort of when the internet came around so they kind of know the internet, you know But I would say the best advice I could give to people who really want to collect I mean whether they want to make money or they just want to get cool stuff is you know, there are still some times you go to restaurants and you'll see like They'll have be selling like a, you know, like the big city papers, but then they'll also have like these little teeny regional Ad papers still, you know, and I would say spend 30 bucks or 50 bucks and just type in You know, old drummer looking for old drums. Sure. I mean because there's still a lot of older folks That's where they're gonna see that and they'll call you, you know, and you know, granted They might not have a phone to send you a picture. So there still might be some of that Well, it's kind of pearl I'd look in and yeah looks really old, you know, it might be old school still But you know, there's still you know, you might you know, you could conceivably You know, you never know there might be a 75 year old lady that you know Their son back in the day was a huge Zeppelin fan and bought the huge amber kit And yeah, it's been in the basement ever since. Yeah. Yeah, or it's a Gladstone snare or something Yeah, no totally. I mean, yeah, and that has happened. I mean, I remember I never really got, you know, the best deals I guess I ever got I did over the years find a couple of the Oyster black pearl, you know, the Ringo snares. Yep Which was kind of cool But the funny thing was is even this day, you know, the oyster black it goes for so much money But back in the day, there were a lot of people that got oyster black pearl kids because of Ringo Yeah, they made a ton of them. Yeah, I don't know what the heck ever happened to all of them or yeah I had a friend growing up Tim His dad owned Arlington Park racetrack. He used to manage Madison Square Garden And they and Tim was less of like the second youngest in the family And you know, but his older brothers were all like 20 years, you know There was probably the oldest one was 20 years older than him a classic baby boom kind of thing And they had Uh, 2012 14. I think it was a 2012 14 And I guess it could have been a 2012 13 16 granted at the time. I was 10 years old, you know But and it did not have a mattress there had a super fauna But I mean there there was a kid and it had the old zildians and you know, so I just don't know what happened all the oyster black Yeah, that's come up on the podcast before about it's just the the amount you hear It's kind of contradictory to hearing the stories about running Seven days a week all 24 hours a day pumping these drums out and then now they're not you'd think they'd be Everywhere and I know I mean, it's it's a car comparison But like the like the old I think it was it would be the model t where they made millions of them And they're just not as collectible because there there's so many out there, but it's not Yeah, it's hard to find those those Ludwigs. Well, it's you know, it's funny. I I've never really had uh Like a great huge crazy find, you know, like a glad stone or you know, I mean I I'm a familiar You know, you should interview if you get a chance is randy rainwater. Do you know randy? Yeah, randy and I are talking and we're hopefully gonna do one. I think his I the topic we were going to do for him is exotic finishes and uh different wraps over the years That's kind of a specific topic. Yeah randy's we've met a few times at the drum shows Good, you could get a couple stories out of him I'm sure where he found, you know again a lot of the times when people would find those old bop sets The ad would almost invariably read Child's drum set, you know what I mean? He had the little 18 inch bass drum I mean, I I thought I wanted to do those over the years, you know, yeah But yeah, I mean the collecting it really is a thrill and again, I still think that You know, again, I can't I can't stress enough that I would really try I'm sure it might cause you're 50 100 bucks But put an ad in the paper That somebody older might see and give them a good price for it. I mean, I you know, I you know, you could still I mean the way I mean now, I mean kids go for some pretty, you know, good money now, you know Um, when I first got into it, you know, the 70s wasn't really collectible at all You know, but it was always it was all 60s and before with Ludwig and stuff, you know So if you had like a blue and olive drum, it was kind of like, yeah, all right. Well, what do you want for it? Yeah, all right. I guess I'll take that's how it was, you know Sure Because you know, I mean it it it obviously like that's like us looking at one from like the 2010s and it's or the 2000s and it's it's just well that week and that's exactly it And I think to myself like if I think back to 1992 when I got in it, that's 30 years ago Yeah, and that's like going back from, you know from 1962 from 92. Yeah, you know, so I mean, I um You know the stuff that I guess we were buying we could buy at the store in 1992 now I guess is collect. I'm not sure how the younger folks You know view like 1990s and And 2000s drums. Do you I don't really know I would say that there there there is People who who of course want that stuff and appreciate it for what it is But there's something that's different to me about And maybe it'll change but like the mystique of A 60s or 70s drum versus the 90s even I mean me being born in 90 I'm 31. I have a kid and another one on the way like I'm an adult But I still feel even saying 1990, you know, if I'm like buying beer or something It's like how old are you? That still feels young for some odd reason like that saying 19 Does that make sense? Like if you get a 90s drum, it just doesn't It's 30 years old but Well, it does, you know, one thing that happened and this is very important And I used to think about this from when I was little, you know Like my older brothers, you know, like my my oldest sister Or even my friends older brothers and sisters that were pretty much older You know, you'd see their pictures from grade school Which was just six or seven years before and they'd be black and white. Yes, exactly So their huge strides came in like the 80s and 90s with like photographs and stuff and you know And then digital photo photography has been around for a while now So the medium itself it's harder to date stuff now by pictures and just like Totally like like nowadays if I'm watching a documentary and they show it Well, here's a clip from 1978. You can just tell how it looks The video quality or the but really once the 90s rolled around The mediums I think of the ways the images how they were collected whether it was film or video or You know still film or you know, it just it doesn't look dated anymore No, you got to look for keys of like Like cars or things like that around it that kind of put a date It well exactly like here's a good example You can kind of see it in action the michael jordan documentary that came out And the film and the video that they used at the time when they were sort of around and working out and stuff It looks just as crystal clear as the stuff today But when you watch the games there were there even you watch the games You can kind of tell because it has the old school sort of score thing and the clock, you know, it's different It dates it a little but there was even stuff in that documentary where to me It looked like they made it a little more grainy to make it seem almost to simulate what it would have been like In the 70s. Yeah, no, absolutely You know, yeah, but I would going back to the drum thing. I would say that you know, but what's I think quality is quality and maybe it was like, I don't know You would know more than me but like 60s and 70s They were still sort of figuring it out and it had that like, oh, they're you know They're grabbing, you know nuts and bolts out of a bucket and you never know what era it was going to be from It was a little more like figuring it out from all the drum companies where things I guess like exactly like you're saying It's just more like streamlined and figured out and less Differences drum to drum in more modern, you know in the last 30 years Yeah, you know, and and and I do know that I guess in modern times You know, there there might be there's still a lot of people today and you had it back in the 90s in 2002 but like all the old tama, you know superstar and imperial star 70s into the 80s stuff And then the old old original like yamaha like eight and nine thousand series stuff. I mean that stuff It's not American made, you know, you saw a lot of people like well the American drums are the ones I want But you know there you have your contingents of people that love the yamaha and the old tom imperial stars and and uh, you know Even to an extent I had a couple people with the bonzo anything email me like the old pearl dlx stuff and yeah, but there really is something about You know, once like the 1980 rolled around, you know, those old pearl finishes were viewed as so Say You just didn't see them for a good almost 10 or 12 years again till the early 90s You know what I mean? Yeah till kind of vintage started sort of coming back in, you know The drum shows in the 90s and stuff um Yeah, I mean I would also say that like One thing and and I I've actually spoken to a few people online who like are uh obvious Big drum enthusiasts sizes like they they like large kits with huge power toms So every category has people who who who really like it So you never want to say like oh those are no one likes those or no like there's there's You know Buckets of people who like all the stuff that being said it seems like that's maybe not quite as Collectible to your average every day. Oh, I like this vintage drum set Giant double bass drum four up two down full toms Right, you know what I'm saying like it seems like a nice little compact Ludwig set is Possibly more collectible uh today than a big old drum set. Well, there's a couple things that happen You know he had just like with cars, you know automobiles in the 60s and 70s You know these these foreign companies like the Japanese companies they studied there was there was an American engineer who God what was his name, but he sort of wrote a book on kind of how it was sort of became became lacking in a lot of American You know industry where you know designs kind of when you sort of got lazy in America And and he wrote these books and how things should be and how how the quality should be You know back and god, I can't think of his name, but it's like a lot of You know a lot of it's like a lot of the folks in other countries really Studied up on that and then you had you know Japanese building this real quality stuff That looked a little simpler, but if you could weld the hood shut and get 50 000 miles out of it without an oil thing You know that that same concept again, like I mentioned before happened with drums too like in the mid You know late 70s and the 80s you yamaha pearl tama Um, so you know, it's it's a different kind of thing like You know, you also have you know now I know with younger kids, you know like old like like 80s metal You know get popular, you know like um You know Judas Priest and yeah, you know iron maiden and yeah, right and the drum cats, you know Nico McBrain and these guys had you know like these, you know You know, you know, and that's the thing. You know, I remember the in the early 80s late 70s early 80s What happened was as you had uh 14 inch deep bass drums was the norm And then 16 inch tape bass drums was considered power rock And then 16 became the norm and then 18 was the power rock And then 18 became the norm in the past 10 15 years and 22 was power, you know, but now we're seeing Return back to 14 Um, you know, I don't know. It's there really was such a social change though, you know through the late 60s into the 70s and that there was such a Really a change between a 1980 drum set you'd buy and then a 1970 drum set you'd buy At least as far as Ludwig was concerned, you know, um Although I will say this one interesting thing about Slingerland, you know, I was talking about I made that video the other day about how You know Jason Bonham on instagram confirmed in in somebody's post that that Slingerland kit that You know the three piece 22 13 16 was in fact blue sparkle. Yeah and not green sparkle or whatever All those pictures were black and white But you know Slingerland, um You know actually much later than like, you know, rogers and Ludwig sort of went from, you know, they pulled the re-rings out of the Drums, you know, and they made the shells thicker But you know Slingerland actually till much later actually offered both you could still get You know the five ply without rings you could still get the three ply with rings almost up until if i'm not mistaken 1980 Um, you know, I have a catalog or two that that you know shows that But yeah, you know, I'm sure there's a bunch of kids today that would you know, you know I'm like those, you know like the sonar kit, you know get like a sonar phonic Or you know sonar light or something, you know partially because of the metal thing but also too, you know to them You know that is something from when before they were born and it's pretty cool You know stuff gets trendy But you know the internet we really can't underestimate the internet Because back prior to the internet people as they got older got dated a lot faster Do you know what I mean? Like the older people now we look at the internet We can see what's popular now with younger people. You can see if you like it or not Sure, you know what I mean? That's true with older people looking or younger people looking at older people and seeing, you know So there's like an efficiency in a homogene Homogenization To a lot of things that might the internet in other words the internet might have changed that whole fundamental way That younger people look at old stuff and older people look at new stuff. You know what I mean? Yeah, but yeah, so so I you know, but still I the best advice and I can't stress this enough Is for younger collectors if they're still into that 30s 40s 50s 60s 70s stuff Wisconsin is is is your target? You know, I mean, Wisconsin, Minnesota. It just seems like That stuff still is coming out of the woodwork Yeah, um Which is a rich is really interesting. I'm sure other people might have some pockets of little towns near them too but um another question here and I kind of alluded it to it before is and it's This stuff isn't free. It's not cheap. You know, I talked to a lot of collectors and sometimes I don't think it gets mentioned about You know, I mean a lot of us are just Unless you're very very wealthy it costs a lot of money to collect drums Now do you come from the camp of like you buy one and then you sell one and get a nicer one and you kind of Jump up and and are they like uh, would you view drum collecting as like Investing in a way where you know that at some point. Okay. I can get some money out of this Well, well, it's funny, especially because in absolute terms, you know, how You know, the prices have gone up and they're going to go up a lot more now because we're seeing some inflation You know, I mean I was just looking at you know That inflation hasn't been running as hot as this since like 1982 and I remember growing up I was a kid in the 70s and I saw firsthand Kind of the inflation we had through the 70s. Yeah when I you know Well, now you first used to buy candy bars at 7 11 or whatever they were 10 cents And then like a year or two later they went to 12 cents an year too later They went to 15 cents and a year too later they went to 18 cents and a year too later they went to 22 Yeah, it's like seven years later. You saw almost like an 80 increase. I mean that so we're starting to see that again um, you know, so for me drums were never The money was an extra kind of a kick for me. I always had jobs in those days when I'd be doing it Yeah, but in those days it was really like the thrill of the chase and what had happened is you'd get the set It would come with stands and symbols You'd be able to sell the symbols locally and in the end it was almost like you like you might sell just the drum Shells you're meaning the drums for what you paid a little more But then you had all these stands and you had all these symbols So in a certain way it kind of grows itself Yeah, I mean so with the 30 percent you made in the kid or the 40 percent on your Turnover you then just put into more drums and put into more drums So they sort of just grow and I'm sure that's how Randy did it and a lot of these guys Back in the day when the relative prices were a lot cheaper compared But yeah, no, there are a lot of people now that do you know view You know, the stuff is super collectible like old K's. I mean, you know 20 years ago and they're still popular They're still very expensive, but old K's got like super hot. You know what I mean? Yeah I remember this guy in statin island is a K symbol stash or I can't think of his name But he must that was his ebay handle K symbol stash or he was loading up on these K's, you know K's have been from an investment standpoint still always pretty hot, you know in the In the mid Bots, you know 2004, you know 2002 345 said, you know, there was a time when old days got real real hot And they're kind of coming back up a little bit, but I mean there'd be times, you know, you could get like In those days One of the last glory years for me that I thought was great was ebay sort of first started I was familiar enough with the old avida silgeon that I could just tell from photographs whether it was an older symbol or not Even a relatively shitey So there was a period of time I'd be buying like a symbol for 140 and I might sell for like three 350 or 400 You know, um But yeah, there are a lot of people that view it, you know monetarily There's a lot of people that view it just as a collector would it just nice to know like Like they can talk to their friends and be like, I still have that, you know black onyx, you know 2012 14, you know, yeah, it's worth noting too that there's um I would say from just looking at, you know forums and stuff that it can be frowned upon for people who Buy and sell like like not as your business. I should say that's how drum shops work We all know that that's like there's people who wear that is there They got to keep the lights on I mean that's people forget that, you know, they Yeah, the individuals who and and I actually did it briefly Kind of out of college. I was teaching drums Uh or in college. I was teaching drums just for some extra money and I would also buy and sell drums off of like Uh overstock websites or like those amazon, you know, oh Listen, I remember those I oh my god Remember when the premiere the genistas the the 2000s made genistas they were giving them away around 2010 2012 yeah, I got a set of genistas and it was orange sparkle. I think I think it was a genista and yeah And that was the lacquer that wasn't a wrap that was a spray on finish beautiful It had the kicker though is it had a giant I shouldn't say giant it had a crack Running around the floor tom maybe six inches long Not really noticeable But I was buying them and selling them just to make I bought it for 200 because when you're buying it They're sight unseen basically the funny thing about the premiere genistas when they made that last run Is they made them you could get them in maple and birch, you know, the original genises were all birch But there were a couple problems with them and that's why they sort of fizzled I know it had to do with the dealers. They couldn't really get distribution distribution But in a lot of those, you know genistas in fact almost all You know little things like the the grommets and the drums were loose Do you know what I mean? Yeah, like they rattle, you know what I mean, which drives you the same And those finishes, especially that orange one you're talking about the orange gold cracked a lot That explains it. Yeah, I mean because because the orange ones I had it was the same thing But they were beautiful. They were heavy, you know, they were but you know, they were being given away by music 1 2 3 and and you know an amazon but amazon also too for a while when they Um, you know pearl had the visions There was a period of time a few years ago where they were given these visions away And not a lot of people knew it but some of the visions kits that would go down You know, they had that algorithm or whatever the how the heck it was That they'd be like, you know, 880 and then a three weeks later They'd be 810 and three weeks later it'd be 760 and eventually if you weren't really paying attention I remember logging on god. This is probably about eight or nine years ago. I got two pearl visions kits in black sparkle with the hardware pack I got two of them for like 550. One was like 280 and one was like 310. They were both 22 10 12 16s With the pearl sense of tone those pearl sense stones were nice beefy drums They ate log they came with the you know and you pick those things up for nothing You know, and then you'd sell the hardware pack online For what you paid for the drums plus and then you had for free a 22 You know 10 12 16 with a snare you'd sell at somebody for christmas for like 300 bucks, you know, so you it's fun It's kind of it's a cool feeling you get, you know, I mean, it's not It's just a neat feeling and everybody loves that feeling of you know You show me one person if they weren't walking down the street And and there was a gold nugget. They'd be like, yeah, you know what? I mean, it's just a feeling you get You know, um, yeah, I mean, but you know, but you see it, you know now on e on ebay you see these sellers I won't say who they are But I mean you see them there's like well, maybe there's more now, but there used to be a couple And now what they do is that you know, they're selling like a screw For like 40 dollars. Yeah, you know what I mean? Yeah You know and I and I you know and it puts you in a little bit of a dilemma just very recently years ago I had a sonar kit which was aqua satin flame that had the you know the metric, you know slotted rods and I just thought for myself, I'm going to sell these but you know, I just thought you know Um, you know, there's going to be people these might not sell because you know A lot of people are going to see that rod and be like, wait a minute You know in those days it was before the internet So if you lost your slotted drum key, you might be screwed You might think well, I have to tune these drums at the screwdriver. I just don't want them Yeah, so I switched out the inserts to American, you know, just regular standard and I bought, you know, regular keyed tension rods And um, but I had left over, you know, I over the years I realized I had those tension rods the sonar and I sold them but I had the nuts that went inside those, um Uh, those teardrop sonar kits and I just kept the nuts. I just put it in a ziplock and forgot about it And you know, just like two months ago. I looked and I saw there was a seller on there selling these nuts for $24 a piece Wow And he sold them. He sold a couple of them, you know So I was like, well, wait a minute, you know, so I actually put on the bag of for the bag of 40 I put it on for 200 bucks And to a lot of people they might see it and be like, hey man, you're greedy But you know, you never know if I put the bag on for 40 bucks There might have been 20 people that bought it for 40 bucks and went and sold them for 20 bucks a piece And I'd be an idiot, you know, I mean, yeah So sometimes you just don't know you don't want to get burned You know, you can put it on eBay and if somebody doesn't buy it you can lower the price You can lower the price, you know, yeah Yeah, and it's come up a lot on the show, but you know eBay Craigslist Facebook all this stuff It's still you and it's all sort of a pretty small community where I know Really guys in your circle too. I've a lot of them. I've talked to they'll they'll they'll know When someone's not doing something right on eBay Like and you said I can name a few of them People know that and you know, you want to be you want to you got to make a little bit of money And um, I just found Like I had a motorcycle years ago. It was a Suzuki ts 250 which people can google it is awesome looking motorcycle I never had it running right, but I bought a gas cap and the gas cap Uh was $50 And it didn't even fit right so but I just found it the other day and I'm like, oh, I got to resell this But that's not that easy Like that takes my work to like take a picture upload it like you're looking at like a half hour just to like Do all this so You know what the thing is Bart I got to tell you is it's so much easier now Because of the cameras that are in our phones. Absolutely. You're right, you know Through the early mid late 2000s and into the teens in those days you had to have a camera And you just take them and then you'd upload them and you know now it's so easy just With the with the phones Um, absolutely, right, but I know what you mean, but then there's also too, you know Ebay's fees and pay, but you know all those fees have gotten real high. Yeah You know, I was just talking to george about this the other day You know you sell a drum for 300 bucks and suddenly you realize that what you netted After ebay and all the fees everything's like 218 and you're kind of like wait, what the hell happened Yeah, and you had to box you took the time to box it up You bought the box you sent it off and then you have sellers that they're so used to amazon They're like, you know, like they're like 20 dollars for a snare drum Like they think they should you know free shipping like they got on amazon and stuff all the time, you know And it gets old, you know, it's just I mean, I just used ebay this last time to just really sort of liquidate a lot of stuff I had here in the basement I just felt over reverb and over these the ebay was probably the best way to go even though the fees were high Yeah, you know, there's a lot of people that do see it as a business and they just you know, they they You know, they sell these little parts, you know and you uh raised something with shipping where I you know because I think that's a part of collecting and buying and selling and if man I have gotten burned on shipping where oh my god, like I remember so quick story. I this isn't really collecting It's more finding and selling so I've been in a In an old warehouse building downtown for years since like 2013 just with some friends We have a music space in there and there's no heat. There's no I see it's freezing But it's it's a cool spot There's always random stuff out in the halls and one time I found a complete pearl Drum set. I don't think it had any hardware But I was like it's kind of the lay of the the law of the building where if it sits there for I think I waited a month and no one it just was there someone liquid someone cleared out of a room Uh, they didn't take it the landlord put it in the hall. Whatever great. So I took it Which I think it's fine, you know a month. Yeah, okay. No one's no one's getting it Anyway, I put it up online. I sold it for like a hundred bucks, which is great But I think like uh, the universe was like you're not supposed to be doing this You're not supposed to find something for free and then sell it for a hundred bucks because I screwed up the shipping The shipping ended up being like 80 dollars. Oh, I've been there and I literally lost 10 dollars Uh, because I did this so it's just like Be careful with shipping. I mean, do you have any tips on how to like properly? I know the region oftentimes especially with the post office and even with FedEx and UPS Like what I what I like to do is I like to put fixed shipping You know what I mean? Okay, and then so what happens is it might be 20 dollars And if somebody in Indianapolis buys it, you're gonna you're gonna send it for 16 So you make for a buck somebody in In Las Vegas buys that you're gonna lose for a buck. So you kind of have that There were a lot of times in the past when when I first kind of got back on eBay and was selling stuff I I put free shipping and of course everybody that was was buying the stuff through its free shipping Live down like an island off the off the coast of Seattle And it was like half the price. It was terrible. I was so I had I thought like I was like screw that So yeah, that that can really toast you. You know what that really boils down to just your experience You know the like the u.s post office is really good for small stuff. Yeah, you know what I mean? Yeah UPS and FedEx sometimes, you know for whatever reason if you're selling stuff on eBay They give you the two options, you know, sometimes FedEx will be cheaper by by five or six bucks and sometimes UPS will be cheaper, you know Yeah, um, yeah, I mean oh, I've been there that that has happened You know sometimes two Especially like when I was selling recently on eBay, you know somebody from uh, I didn't really live I didn't say the in these times no foreign buyers and sellers eBay is a thing now called the global shipping program, which is cool So you can ship it to these little like in like Erlanger, Kentucky for the price You'd send it, you know to a regular person then somehow they eBay works it out where they ship it from this main center overseas But I had a couple people buy it, you know, and they'd be like, yeah, great You know, let me know what shipping is and I'm like, well, you know shipping is going to be even over the snare I'm like 95 dollars. Oh, I don't want it So then I'm like, I got to go and I got to cancel the freaking thing And you know and you lose some money doing that. You know what I mean? Because in time time is money There's no denying that like where once or twice it's fine But again, if you're like doing that all the time and measuring and and weighing it and taking it and checking it It's well, yeah, that well, that's the thing that I you know, again, I I think um You know, I'm grateful to kind of be getting as I get older. I'm getting out I'm certainly not doing the the buy it sell it stuff anymore. You know what I mean Yeah, um from time to time if something, you know, sometimes something will will drop on your lap You know, there are sometimes you'll come across something and it's been a while since that's happened I remember, you know, several years ago. I went in a guitar center And this was before like now your guitar centers and your musical rounds They know what the stuff is worth because we have the efficiency of the computers You know what I mean? We have we have the internet and everybody can get you know, the market You know, it reaches these these efficient values very quickly because of arbitrage. You know what I mean? If somebody sees, you know a 66 and a half by 14 Superphonic for $400 are gonna buy it. They're gonna go and they're gonna immediately turn around try to get 1200 or 1500 for it Yeah, and it's the the market the the equilibrium happens a lot faster You know, so I still think then for the the people who want to collect and have the thrill of buying stuff Kind of cheaper finding kind of cool stuff and selling it you put an ad in the paper, man Oh, you're right. You're right and they'll call you people will call you You know, yeah, and um, and you'll have the thrill You know, you'll have the thrill of victory the agony defeat You might go and there might be some you find that are a honk after your hour and a half drive But again, that's minimized now the older folks might have Cameras and give them, you know, give them, you know, I've always believed that I've heard a lot of people over the years Be like, yeah, the guy didn't know what he had they gave him $50. Ha ha, you know, I never really You know, if you're gonna sell some $800, you know back in our days of of That it where it wasn't efficient, you know, you had to go on Larry Levy's the sheet or You know, well, yeah, if you were gonna buy, you know, something that you might sell after two months for $800 Well fair value to you might be 350. You know what I mean? Um, you know, uh, you know, because it's you know, that happened a lot of times growing up Or you know coming up in the vintage drums I'd say to the person like an older person. They'd be sitting. I'd be like, well, listen I said these drums you have I said, you know, after about a month or two You know, I might be able to get 1200 for these but I can only give you 500 They'd be like, well, I can't give me 1200 I'd be like, well, it's gonna have to put ads in the paper. Well, I want 1200 And I'd walk out without them and say, well, good luck to you Yeah, I mean, I mean, they but they'd be like mad That you were gonna get 1200 after all the work you're gonna do and shipping and stuff Then gosh darn it. They want it right now for their price. Yeah It's a bit of that's that's how businesses work obviously and you kind of got to treat it like that but but be fair um, and I just think too you said before that I think is worth re mentioning is On certain situations the post office can be much cheaper on certain other situations FedEx and UPS can but there's something where if it's like You said smaller like I think for me to mail a t-shirt Uh, which I'm now out of at some point. I'll restock and I owe you a t-shirt terry But nice it is way more expensive It would be five dollars to ship a shirt through the post office It might be 20 dollars on FedEx or something Well, well, that well, that's the thing and here's the thing a tip for usps for the post office The threshold is 15.9 ounces one pound So like I have these drumsticks I make right I have the bonds only in two way The 2b and then now I have the 5a which is like the 2a model I've been you know bottom really love the two ways and back in way back in the day Sticks before a heavy metal and rock and stuff sticks were a little more delicate in the sense that toward the top The the show like the the just under the beads sometimes would be it would be like a girdle Like a like an hourglass kind of and you get a really good rebound But you know if you start playing heavy music, you know those sticks would break real fast If you don't have the technique to play with them So they got you know, that's why starting in like the 70s into the 80s Suddenly the area below the bead got a lot thicker and it just kind of would would um It'd be like a step there wouldn't be any taper in there. It would just be beefier Um But I have these sticks that I sell well if you sell one pair of sticks or one t-shirt It comes in under a pound. So your your shipping might be Five dollars, you know what I mean? Yeah, exactly as soon as you cross that threshold it almost your price Your your shipping almost doubles. Yeah, you know what I mean? So if I send two shirts it costs nine dollars to ship it because it's got to go priority I sell one shirt or one sticks. You can sell at first class Um, and it's you know, whatever four or five dollars or So but just you know, that's the thing you remember. It's just that threshold This is the one pound threshold at the post office. But what I do if like for the stuff I've been selling I get five by five by five boxes from u-line. You know what I mean? I might buy 50 of them for I don't know 40 bucks, you know, the shipping is kind of unreasonable But you know they come You know when I just throw a part in there and you send it off You know and and I use the post office for that, you know, but yeah Yeah, I would recommend for one t-shirt if you're gonna, you know, use the post office And sometimes you still use the post office if it's just over But you know, there are sometimes if you have a tom-tom 12 inch tom in a box you go to the post office priority to send it to california It's going to be 42 dollars. You know, you go to fedex. It might be 28 ups might be 22 or you switch those around the You know, see, but you just get used to it Um, you know from doing it a lot, you know, I mean It's essentially small stuff with the post office and bigger stuff use ups or fedex And ebay makes it real easy now on the shipping page You can you can you can shop for the best price, right? We have to you sell it It shows you the different options of what each carrier has for the box you have and that's that's great That's a really convenient. They didn't use to do that. Yeah, because it's not Um, it's not easy to know this and it takes experience and I'm glad we're talking about stuff like that because I think that's pretty practical Uh, it's not all you know Reading your the newspaper and hunting and going and finding there's technical stuff of like, okay. I'm gonna sell these parts Uh, is it more efficient to put it in an envelope versus a box? You know, like there's little Well, well, that's what gets hard too. Like I've had a couple people get all you know, they're bent out of shape They're like, hey man, you know, you can just throw that in an envelope for 50 sons And they have the power to give you a negative they bought it And they're renegotiating when somebody buys your thing and you say shit buyer will pay four dollars They legal they have to pay they're agreeing to that when they buy it But I mean there you you ebay won't enforce it You're gonna have some guy like if you don't send that to me for 60 cents I'm gonna give you a negative and that really stinks. So they kind of got you by the short hairs So but then the problem is you can't ship it for 50 cents because it won't be any tracking with it Yeah, so the guy can even get it if he's an arsehole He can get it and say he didn't got it and you refund his money So, you know, that's why you got to do the uh, you know, at least the first class mailing Which all day long is at least 350. Yeah, and that's just the way it goes, you know And you just there's been a time or two where I have thrown it Actually, what I did with these people is I shipped it the way I normally did it cost me five dollars But I charged them 60 cents. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, sure And it's just it's just even though you're losing four dollars in the sale You're just not gonna have some cry, baby, you know who You know really thinks that you know, hey man, just wrap it up and put in a little envelope and you know Yeah, I mean if he's my buddy, okay, if that's how you want it, you know, he's not gonna if it doesn't come You know, Billy, I don't know what to tell you. Yeah, but if they're an ebay buyer They got they can they can zap you with negative which hurts you which which does really hurt Oh, yeah, you know what I mean? So it's just a pay, you know, you get people like that Yeah, you know, there's a lot of people that You can have a good price on a drum I noticed this and I've had some people say, hey, you know, I'd buy that But you know, you want $11 shipping and should only be six And I'm like, so you're not gonna buy it Even though it's a great deal on the drum itself. You're saving $40. I'm selling it for $40 cheaper $80 cheaper than this other person is but you're not gonna buy it out of principle because I'm charging four dollars more shipping And you think is fair in your mind Do you know what I mean? Yeah, and I think like people like that. Like you said amazon. I'm guilty of it We're all guilty of it. Like you see something that's like Uh on a you know, uh a retail website, whatever it is like you're buying a coat or something And it's like, yeah, I have to pay for shipping it kind of like Catches you now because you're like I'm so used to like amazon prime or whatever, but yeah, right. It is what it is But you know, there's you know, there's a great drum. I'll tell you right now something timely on ebay There's a seller. There's a 12 by 17 Ludwig red sparkle tenor drum And I'll tell you those tenor drums that size 12 by 15. So 15 diameter 12 inch deep The larger ones honest to god, there's 17 inch Diameter remo will make you ahead to 17 if you order it They're just that proportionality those are in fact that's what you saw before Remember how you were you said you could see the vintage drums back to the red or silver sparkle Well, the floor times I have for that, you know, the quote floor times are both 12 by 15 and 12 by 17 that I put Legs on cool. Um, but there's a seller on there that has a 12 by 15 I'm sorry 12 by 17 inch red sparkle Ludwig That you know, they were asking a lot of money for and slowly they've lowered the price and shipping was like 60 dollars But they're they're just like I don't know they're in Ohio or something. I'm in Chicago, you know shipping should be like You know, maybe 28 or 30, you know, but they wanted like this 60 dollars to ship and so I just asked him I says or any way you could you know, you know I'm a little cool, you know, I could maybe bring the shipping down to 40 And then when they re-listed the drum the drum they raised the price 10 or 20 dollars and they raised the shipping 10 or 20 Just to like stick it to me, you know, I just because they were mad You know, I wasn't asking for them to ship the drum for 10 dollars. I just thought, you know, from my experience shipping drums Yeah, they were overcharging by 40 and I just thought maybe they were just maybe a little ignorant But no, they knew darn. Well, they're looking to make a little extra money in shipping You know, and how dare you ask them if they can go a little cheaper No, and and that that actually not to make this episode, you know 50% about shipping But like I do want to say that like there's like that ethical dilemma that you kind of think of like That just might be some backdoor way to make more money Which you got to watch out for because if if shipping is 100 bucks on something and it should be 20 I guess that is kind of a slimy way for people to Well, the fact of the matter is is when you pull the trigger on the buying you're agreeing to that Do you know what I mean? Yeah, like I might see a snare drum I'm like, you know, like this happened this happened not that long ago There was a um, what did I buy? Um, I forget what it was. I think it was a five by 14 1971 superphonic. It was like, I don't know. It was like 250 but shipping was 70 dollars For 60 dollars, but I bought it anyway because my nut I still even with the I didn't You know, I didn't buy it and then email the person say listen, I'm just giving you 25, you know I've had that happen. Yeah, like I just talked about Um, but again, you know when you buy something, you know, you're paying what You know, if you bought a drum for 300 dollars and shipping was 60 you paid 360 for it You didn't pay 300 dollars for it. Yeah, so you just look at what the total is I mean, shouldn't you factor it in as part of your cost or part of what you're selling? Um, yeah, I mean, yeah shipping is a big deal Especially in these days because everybody just ships now, you know, so you should You know get the ins and outs of you know, again, it is great with ebay They make it real easy where they'll have all these options of how you know Different carriers how you want to ship it and you can shop for the cheapest thing, you know, and it's nice, you know Yeah, um, but then again, there's some people who might have a drum there, you know And and but they don't you know how they're going to ship it is well I'm going to take this to the ups or the ups is going to box it up for me Which is crazy and maybe you know what I mean Yeah, so that but I know that this person or this sometimes these people who are selling it They're they're charging that kind of price as if they're going to have UPS or FedEx box it up for them But you know, they're not you know, I mean that you know, they've been selling long enough. They're going to do with themselves Yeah, but again, that's honestly though. That's their prerogative You know, some people will have more of a competitive price on the actual price You're going to pay, you know, straight your nominal nominal price You're going to pay on reverb or ebay, but then you know, you're agreeing to whatever price they're laying out in front Yeah, um, yeah, but then sometimes what does happen is they might say well, we'll work out shipping after so then you buy it And suddenly they're like, all right, it's a hundred to ship and you're like, wait a minute. Yeah, that's you know I know it's not you know, yeah So now those are shipping is a big part of the of the vintage drum collecting or of anything You know, yeah, all all good points for people to know um Would you say collecting and actually holding you're having your hands on a specific drum is really the best way To learn about all these parts and pieces and models and you know different serial number stuff As opposed to maybe just looking on you know, google, which is great too. Just just studying old catalogs But to me it seems like holding it is it's just Well, that's that's a big thing. I mean, um, you know, especially like I like you it's funny that you mentioned those, um Uh, you know those premieres You know back whatever 10 years ago A lot of the drums that I hit amassed at least at this location where I live in this house now weren't vintage I um, I used to wait till there were deals on kits again, amazon or music one two three, especially with the sonar stuff They used to have the three thousand one 2001 and then they changed it to the 2003 three thousand three the force and they changed it three thousand five three two thousand five One thousand five and then two two thousand seven the year 2007 they'd updated again They made it the you know one thousand seven the 2007 the three thousand seven But when no when those drums when they'd read when they would bump it up to the five or the seven they would give away Though the other kids right by him. Yeah, just you know parsley You know, I I mean, I'm obsessive compulsive and I'm a little bit of a hoarder I knew I wasn't going to lose money on it and when something come through I would learn You know firsthand what the quality was Um, you know versus people just talking about it, you know Um, you know, I remember a lot of times people like oh, you know, don't get that, you know That tom the reissue superstar because they kind of and I'm like well the I bought a couple and I looked at him And I got a chance to sort of feel them smell them and touch them. I'm really familiar with the build You know, it's nice to have that experience firsthand Um, you know, but your motives for doing it are you want that experience? But also to you're not going to lose money, you know I'm not gonna I that that that that experience isn't worth me losing money on it No, but if I can at least just break even And you are kind of losing money because sometimes you're breaking even breaking even nominally But you're also having at the house and you got to box it up But that's something also to the love of drums. It's kind of cool doing that to degree But you know, you do have to be wary online Because even still to this day even on the Ludwig site There there were there was a the serial number Um pages and and records that they have nobody is still Updated it even here in 2022, you know, you'll still see on these sites that a serial number of like You know like 990 or 990 thousand or 1 million on the Ludwig site is 1976 like it's like they jump You know, they say this one and this one is 64 or 65. This one to this one is 68 or 67 and then this one, you know, 760 x x x is 69 But then they and then they have 1970 Unserialed, you know, uh, exactly and then but then it like jumps to 1976 I mean, I can't tell you how many five by 14 Ludwig superfonics I got that were from like 1970 71 Because people looked and they looked on the on the website on Ludwig site even in some of these other sites Where, you know, if it was a 9 1888 or whatever they thought it was from 1976, you know um, so nobody still to this day has really Has corrected this misinformation that's out there, you know, um, there's a fella I know on one of the drum forms. In fact, it's called drumform.org. Oh, yeah A nice guy. I can't think of his name, but case casey dad You know, there are there are some people that are really trying to nail down these serial numbers You know, but still though, I mean, you know, there's still, you know, just not accurate information out there, you know Yeah, um Yeah, but putting your hands on them like you said and actually holding them. I just think that that um It's the best experience if you can do it Yeah, and I think of just people I've met at the drum shows and and things like that where You think to yourself like, you know, this 25 year old guy or girl or whatever It's like, how do you have so much knowledge about these these vintage drums? But it's like again, if you if you hold it and you look at it and you're studying it It's just it's easier to retain than um Just for me reading about it briefly and then doing an episode talking about it And maybe that's part of my problem is, you know, doing all these interviews The the earlier stuff gets smashed out of my brain because I can't I'm out of room or something, but oh, yeah No, no, I know what you mean, but no, but that's the thing. I mean it was really Um, you know, it is great, you know, when you learn firsthand, you know stuff You know, you see yourself and you know the quality of stuff and then there's some stuff You'll see some people that have been collecting a long time and sometimes like for example Not that long ago, maybe nine years ago, you know Ludwig At some point like 69 70 71 Sold some brass shell superfonics five by 14s And you know, they what they do is they put a b above the tone control on the shell You'd see a b stamped in and the uh The bad the shells were like drilled for like a 60s keystone But you'd see a blue and olive badge on there But there but the area where the serial number would be would be clipped off So those drums, you know, lord would collectors are they're familiar with those you see them on ebay And it wasn't that long ago You still see people like Ludwig made 200 of these and you're like, wait a minute the past five years I've seen 200 of these show up on freaking ebay, you know and growing up You know in the 90s, I used to see these drums But I didn't know they were brass because I never you know, they were plated nicely But no one you know the the market was in you know inefficient You know, you really didn't see until somebody pointed out to me like oh that could be brass And there are drums from that era which do have from you know, they look just like it They have the clip edge, but they're not brass. They're you they're they're alloy You know, they're lute alloy, which is aluminum an aluminum alloy, but nobody really knew I mean, maybe some collectors did I'd never see anybody talk about it on the internet But that they also made Six and a half by 14 brass shells as well But what they did was is the the B wasn't stamped above the tone control It was stamped behind the butt plate And my friend Bob Marselac So fella I know over the years from collecting. He's a cymbal guru He knows so much about pasty and zilch and stuff and because he's gotten his hands on him himself You know, he was you know, like me very obsessive compulsive He has had so many original giant beads in 602s and old zilchins go through his hands Um, you know, because he's you know, uh, uh, you know, like an obsessive commulser buyer seller You know not to make money just because he really wanted to see the stuff firsthand. Yeah, exactly But he got in a trade he had something that he sold. I can't remember what it was It might have been like an 18 inch Therma gloss Ludwig Baystrom And he got in trade a six and a half by 14 brass snare and I remember he told me he's like, well, Terry You know, I got this brass snare and I'm like, oh, I'm thinking to myself in my head. I'm like, Bob, you got ripped off You know, bring it on over. I'll take a look at so sure enough. He brought it over and the plating was exquisite, you know You know aluminum doesn't like to be plated aluminum is a very react You know, when you you know, when you plate stuff what you do is you put a You know, typically what they do is they put a copper plate on Then a nickel plate and then a chrome plate kind of like a three-step process Um, but when you put that copper plate over aluminum Copper and aluminum fight with each other. They don't like it. You know what I mean? Yeah So but if you have a brass shell drum, well, I guess what brass is brass is copper and zinc That's what brass is so it'll take plating better You know in those days a lot of places have used brass or something with copper in it because it would plate better The the plating quality was good not necessarily this the sonarific or the sound of brass Just really brass was a material that would plate very nicely because it's copper. So anyway Long story short. So I realized I was looking at the drum. I'm like, well, this this boy This really does look you know, the funny thing is chrome plated brass Especially with the Ludwig super phonics when you look at the chrome on the shell It almost looks like you're seeing liquid mercury before. Yeah, that's silver. It almost has that kind of of Of a rich sort of look to it versus, you know, when you look when you see a chrome over Aluminum shell, even if it's plated wonderfully if you look real close at the chrome You're going to see almost very slight lines that go from left to right from when the shell was buffed Even if it's plated, you know But when you look at a super phonic and you don't see any of those little teeny lines at all it looks Like is that mercury look you should really check and see if it's brass, you know Take a lug off Scratch a little more than you otherwise might because you might on an aluminum shell You might just scratch through the chrome plating and the nickel plate and just hit the copper plate You know, sometimes people, you know on the super phonic sometimes the the chrome And the nickel will flake off and then make it look like it's brass But what you're looking at is just the copper plate But so we did and you know, I we scratched a little off. I'm like, well, Bob, sure enough This is a brass shell and I just looked all over and I'm like and I found the B under the butt plate so Some years later, which is now maybe a year or two ago, maybe just before the pandemic I was on the internet or on youtube I'm sorry. I will often in my videos interchange ebay and youtube because I'm a skull and 52 I'm like, yeah, sometimes you can find these drums on e on youtube or other times. I made a video on ebay. Anyway, Yeah, but I saw a seller was selling one and I could just tell by looking at it It was brass, you know the serial number The serial number on these six and a half's that I've seen are all in the 700 range like right after they went from the keystone badge To a blue and olive badge and on the six and a half's the badges aren't clipped the serial number is on there And they're all in like the 750 range. Okay, so this is a good bit of advice for people If you see a Ludwig superphonic that is a blue and olive badge and the At all in the 700s probably in the 800s too, although I've never seen the six and a half Um, look at that plating and look under the butt plate. Anyway, I saw one on there I could tell right away that I'm like that has got to be brass I emailed the seller and I asked him. I said, hey, is there a b under the butt plate? And he said, yeah, I'm like, well, that's a brass drum. He's like, well, I really don't think it is I'm like, no it is. He's like, no, I don't think so So I I didn't have the $500 at the time of the 600 So I called up George my friend George Flutus who you did the interview of He's got bonomology and he plays with the people's front is up and guy and I said, George, if you got 600 bucks, dude Buy this drum and he did so now my friend pasty bob that you see in these videos that I've had pasty bob and George The only two people I know in the whole wide world That have a six and a half by portraying comb over brass be stamped under the butt plate drum Wow. So my advice to people, you know, yes, they have the clipped badged, you know, 1970, you know, 1970 ish Superfonics with the be above the butt plate while there are also six and a half And there are also two a later 1968 brass drum that I bought on ebay That has crimp snare beds That I thought, you know, and a couple of years ago I fell a soul like pretty much almost the exact same drum His story was at that fella from pro. What is it pro drums in la? I forgot the guy's name ordered a bunch from Ludwig So there are some late 60s chrome over brass, which are rare. Those are more rare than the be stamped over the um tone control Clipped badge, they're more rare than that, but they're out there too and those are all in the in the serial number range of um Like 660 670 Again, if you see a Ludwig superfonic just you can start by looking at the plating And if it looks murky like like like really nice plating Examine it whether it whether it doesn't have a serial number in a red, you know, you know You know, super Ludwigs that had the heavy cast lugs and the chrome over brass You know hoops. Anyway, I don't want to talk too much about that. But I do think if you're a Ludwig collector Uh, the the field, uh, what is a ripe area to start looking into which is fun? Look for those six and a half by 14 brass drums with the b behind the butt plate and also look for those late 60s Um that have the their brass and they have crimp snare beds just like the later versions The snare bed looks a lot like the snare bed after Ludwig stopped making brass chrome over brass super Ludwigs in like 60 61 62 or whatever they may they they went to the Lutloyshaw, which was aluminum But they still didn't use the acoustic perfect snare snare bed. They still use the crimp snare bed Well, the crimp snare beds you see on those aluminum's, you know, that that don't have serial numbers It looks like the exact same crimp snare bed. You'll see on these late 60s brass ones. So keep your eyes peeled for those I think that's really exciting. I yeah time to time look on ebay to see if I can find those It's just a lot of fun. I mean that night it's a hunt. Yeah, and that's the the hunt is exactly right and I The reason I wanted to have you on for this particular episode, which I want to do more kind of collector talks with people is I need I personally want to learn more. Obviously I learn a lot about the history of the drums in general from doing these episodes but I want to learn more about um just collecting because I need to start to uh, um Just build up my collection. I've done it a lot over the years, but I again, I don't I'm not as I don't know. I need to get my hands on more things Um and and learn but I think the the reason again I wanted to have you is because you've got all this experience And I know some people are listening saying you've got Terry Keating on bonzolium Why are you not talking about bonnum? And I want to just say that um, so like you mentioned George flutus did an awesome bonnum episode on my show, but I want to give a shout out to Ben hilsinger over at the big fat five podcast You were on a great guy his show and did an amazing bonzo episode and Ben and I are on the drum click, which is the same network. So I was just kind of like, you know If you want to go check out that uh, terry's episode just hear him talk about bonnum on there and uh, Yeah, I think that snare drum. Yeah, exactly, which ben is awesome and um That episode turned out great And uh, I wanted to see the the other side of terry which is again the collecting and I think people have Probably learned on this episode that you really do know your stuff But that being said you're you know People know you as bonzolium and all that good stuff Do you want to maybe kind of as we wrap up talk a little bit about What people can expect is there any cool bonds bonzo stuff that that you're learning or what we can expect on youtube and And again Just like I talk about, you know, those brass six and a half by 14s with the blue outlet badge and I talk about those late 60s um crimp badge brass ones, which supposedly there's some six and a half of those too Um, although, you know, finding a six and a half by 14 superphonic with the keystone badge, whether it's brass or not Is those are hard to find Um, you know, I I would say, you know, what I the big thing is for me like the uncharted territory that I Really want to get with bonnum is kind of really what happened to his gear Yeah, sure And um, you know, and I I had a video for a long time that I posted on youtube on my channel The video was sent to me on a vhs format by a fella named bill towns and who lived down in, uh, I think South carolina or north carolina and he sent it to me and he purportedly at the time a lot of people he said and a lot of people thought that he had the original Amber viseleid kit that john bonham, you know played in 73 and 75 live Um, and that's it's even in books if you see a couple, you know leds up under john bonham books You'll actually see the name bill towns and mason down there. I think in in the thunder of drums that book But I you know since I found out, you know, billy herrington has done a lot of research on you know He was the one that you know me and george and other other zeppelinites You know, we would just look at that thermogloss 26 inch base room Be like that is that is deeper than 14 inches and sure enough they turned out to be 15 inches deep Because can our mind a piece ordered it from his spec Which was 15 inch deep because he had Ludwig make 15 inch deep because he had a leady Base drum that he was 15 inches deep that he really liked But you know billy and I talked, you know, there's some people have done some Research in that you know, we've determined that you know the the amber Kit that bill towns and did have In those days turned out not to be genuine and I took the video off my channel I left it up for a while because I just wasn't you know, there's still some people that said it was and But I eventually took the video down Um, so we kind of really want to see kind of what happened to all that stuff, you know the gongs and the symbols Yeah And those fellas dm 190, you know, one of the guys over there you have matthew and you have john John gave some lessons to zoe bottom and zoe had mentioned to him that you know, I think a A good part of bottom's original stuff, you know might have been stolen, you know Out of storage. So but we'll get to the bottom of that, you know, john Maybe john can interview zoe again or billy herrington was going to talk to to john, you know But we'd really love that but one of the best sources, which would be great would be just going right to jason bottom You know, it'd be really nice to get just an interview with jason bottom You know, and he doesn't seem like much of a gear guy But I do just be nice if jason would understand that to the diehard rabbit, you know leds up when john bottom fans You know the gear is is a big deal. Yeah, you know, we'd love to know what happened, you know to all this stuff I mean it but like that's what's cool about it is You're at 999 videos on your channel you have 60 am I yeah, you're you're almost at a thousand I'm one I'm not gonna do a thousand celebration. You should yeah, and you're almost at 61,000 You're close to 61,000 subscribers. It's just nice That you you and I are similar too where people go how many like for me They're like, all right, you you got to be running out of episodes And it's like no there is a ton of topics and I think you're in the same boat where You can just keep doing it and doing it and people people are so passionate about bottom Um, and I also want to note that you and george and all these other bottom, uh fanatics are Really we have our bottom altars in the basement exactly and I say that Very in a good way and but like you guys are so like connected and really, um Lift each other up to find stuff and you know what we love it, you know, there's a passion there You know life is as hard as it is sometimes You know to have then something you love and is so interesting and it's constantly engaging. It makes life that just more enjoyable, you know, I mean the I mean there really is I I really I know there's a lot of you know, I can't I know I talked about the chrome over brass six and a half by 14s You know at the blue all bad. I mean that's something that if I were a younger collector I'd keep my eyes peeled. That's it's like unicorn hunt, you know, yes, but you'll find them. They're out there, you know Yeah, um, you know and and what's cool, too It's almost like when you bet on football you love watching football games or games But it's also nice too of san francisco wins you win $300. Exactly. I mean if you find one of those drums You found it and it's really cool. But yeah, you know, you might sell that You know late 60s Chrome over brass with the crimp, you know sarabets for $1,800, you know You might sell it and make yourself $1,000 on it if you do decide to sell it, you know So but yeah, it's just passion. It's just something that's just I just love the drums You know, I just you know, love zap and other bands too. I'm a huge police fan. I love the I love genesis, you know, phil Collins was a total Badass back in the day and you know copeland is still a living legend alive, you know copeland I always say he himself, you know, I bonds olium somebody could have moon olium or whatever But copeland himself is copeland olium, you know, I still think he should sit down and go over the songs, you know, he could make 80 videos his place is all wired up for sound and everything He could just do it behind, you know, like when you see the behind the boards He could bring up the drums only or talk about this or that Tom and pice he would sponsor it, you know, he'd I've been recommending that to him for 10 years, you know Yeah, so be nice if he does it at some point, you know Well, that's a good segue because uh, it's it sounds easier than it is Um, but again for someone like you who's got a thousand videos out and it's clearly paying off Um, which I should say as well. It's b o n z o l e u m bonds olium if anyone hasn't heard of it Check it out on youtube But um, it it is not super. I mean, obviously stewart copeland has wired up and can probably afford to have an engineer and videographers and stuff But that being said It takes time it takes energy for you to do what you're doing and um As we're kind of finishing this episode up, I'll tell people that um, terry's has been kind enough He's going to hang out for a couple extra minutes once we wrap up and we're going to do this week's bonus episode Um, kind of on some youtube tips, which I like to do with um, you know, if anyone is on the show who has a large Following I think it's cool to get their perspective because you know, most of us drummers want to post videos on youtube we want to do things and um Why not get some advice someone from someone who's uh, who's been doing it very well and terry's a phenomenal drummer and has Good sound and it's funny and all that good stuff. Um, so we will hang out and do that in just a moment But actually before I forget I also want to thank there's uh, terry. You've been actually recommended to me Um, a number of times. I think in kind of in passing you should do it. You should have terry especially after uh, george's episode, but I i'm looking back in my list and I have written down that um I think his last name is thripshaw. I believe scott. I want to say thripshaw recommended you Uh, about a year and a half ago almost two years ago. So thanks to scott. Um, yeah, thank you scott And yeah, we've been talking for a while too and i'm glad we finally kind of got it together. Um, and made this happen. So Uh, yeah, that's that's awesome. Anywhere else you want people to find you besides the the obvious you can You can search either von zoleum or terry keating k e a t i n g anywhere else Yeah, you know, I well, I do have a an album that I made about 10 years ago And it's called terry keating greatest hits And um, it's songs that I totally wrote myself musically and lyrically. Of course I played the drums on it and Um, you know, one of the songs was featured on uh, there's a station here in chicago called wxrt And it was played a couple times on there, which was nice. Yeah, and um, yeah, i'm looking to record A note. I actually I put on one of my videos. I'd like to record two albums this year Um, I have one that's actually almost recorded I just don't have any lyrics on and then I'd like to do another one from the ground up as well Um, you know, I and I do have played I used to be in a band called leave lea ve and those CDs are out there and I used to be in a band called satya graha years ago. We made Uh, uh, couple records and on our own, you know, we weren't on a label or anything. Yep. Um, and as of late I've been playing with a fella named ty ver Um, you know, and he is has been singing with the people's front of zeppelin the pfoz people But you know ty really loves the sound I have down here and he loves my playing So he was nice enough to contract me out to play drums on his stuff. We just released a video. There's a new song called ships, you know like ships on the ocean And um, you know that that is really more like my normal way of playing the drums how I normally play in my head Or how it is kind of the ships There's like 11 or 12 songs That I played on them that I've you know, you can find on like spotify and stuff and on youtube But that last one is really kind of more how I I really actually play the drums. That's awesome. I mean like my Yeah, my personality in it, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're you're very um, I will say you're you Sometimes people hate the term but you yourself are a content creator and I think people don't like it because it kind of Diminishes it of like what the hell is content you make you make great great things but I say that because you really put out a lot of stuff and you're always working and And that's what I think people really appreciate is when something is consistent and it's always in your cool You know drum drum room basement and like I said, it has good sound good sense of humor And I love putting them on I work at night a lot and I just have the tv going and I edit video and audio stuff And I very frequently put up your videos just because they can kind of like They're fun to watch kind of in the background for me while i'm doing that. So um, well, I appreciate it bar. That's really cool. It's um I just love doing it. I just really love drums. I love when people I'm with or like drums as much as I do It's nice when somebody sends a comment on the page or sends me an email and says, you know, I know exactly what you're talking about I you know, I used to I used to think, you know, Copeland did play that snare, you know, it's just, you know, there's a lot more drum geeks out there than Then you think there are, you know, everybody's especially with, you know, like, you know, certain drummers, you know Your key your store Copeland's or your John Bonham's or your, you know, so it's um It's it's really just rewarding. It's exciting. You know, I could I could sit and I could talk forever about drums And about this or that and just because it's interesting and it just makes me feel good No, and it seems to make other people feel good too. So that makes me that makes me feel good as well and it makes other people totally it's our community and and it's that's who's listening to this and um Uh, you know, I'd be surprised if people hadn't heard of you but First in some, you know, way that if they're finding out just now for the first time you got to go over and check out Terry's youtube channel Bonzolium But on that note terry, why don't we hop over and we'll record the little bonus episode but I'd like to thank somebody Bart. Um, you know, of course thai there for you know, playing on the stuff He's a great guy, but I actually was um, I didn't realize that I was featured in modern drummer just this last year Yeah, I think in the tune issue and that's because of clementine moss. She plays in um zeppelin tribute band Um, god, I can't think of the name of it. Um, you know, there's a bunch of of bands. Um, zepirella That's what it is. You heard of zepirella. No, that's awesome though Yeah, clement moss god lover. She she interviewed me and it was going to go on some Site or something somewhere but somehow she's a the fellow who she was going to publish it with is like, oh, you know I work for modern drummer. Let's put it in modern drummer. So I had an actual, you know, three or four page Feature in modern drummer this past the june 2021 issue. That's awesome. I just I really appreciate that I feel very honored and I just really want to thank clement, you know for for being kind enough to interview me Yeah, I mean that's like bucket list type stuff getting featured in modern drummer for what you're doing in your basement, uh With youtube, you know what I mean? Like that's it's crazy and I didn't realize it I didn't know I kept waiting for her to email me and tell me it was going to be on some You know podcast and somebody Somebody's texting me like, hey man, great modern drummer. I was like, what are you talking about? Yeah, that's that's huge I mean, that's just I mean It was really it was very flattering and I'm very grateful very grateful to have that honor with being in a magazine. That's great Yeah, nothing nothing beats that Cool. All right, terry. Well, thank you so much for being on the podcast I'm sure everyone's enjoyed it and thank you for everyone uh for listening and again If you want to hear the patreon bonus episode with terry where he's going to teach me to Be a successful youtuber, um like himself Go to drumhistorypodcast.com and there's a patreon link and you can um click that and For as low as two bucks a month get all these bonus episodes with um great guests like terry. So terry, thank you for being here. Thank you bart. I really really appreciate you having me on If you like this podcast find me on social media at drumhistory and please share rate and leave a review And let me know topics that you would like to learn about the future Until next time keep on learning