 So great to be here and great to have you here on Founder Stage You Hanno you founded the personia for six years ago, and this is your first time a slash right? Yeah, I did first time it's lush but really impressed by the event that Mika and the team has put together. It's it's really nice I think there's a lot of startups who've been here like years and years and years Well, and now they're like you coming straight on to Founder Stage must be feeling really nice So the latest race as you did with 270 million dollars and Personia is now valued to six point four billion dollars. I mean and for those who are familiar with your company. What do you do? so personia is an HR platform for small and mid-sized companies between in 10 and 2,000 employees So essentially how you can think about it is we're doing on the one hand the core HR would work there It does for the enterprises and democratizing those benefits But we're also doing workflow automations of what service now does for the enterprise We're also doing for small and mid-sized companies and thereby we're digitizing the entire employee lifecycle for companies and really helping them Manage their most important assets that people more effectively So I've heard that you actually never had a real job before this So I was just wondering how does a guy who never had a real job get into like the HR tech Right, so can you tell me a bit about that? Yeah, good question. So Indeed, we never had a real job. We found a company out of university and I guess we're lucky to an extent that we weren't Just trying to solve a typical student problem, which oftentimes isn't really a big problem to solve But we were able to to look at what's really a problem and in companies that is relevant And I think one we found out that people and that's I think obvious to everyone you talk to but but not very Seriously taken is that people are the single most important influence factor of every successful company and Then figuring out that while all other parts of the organization have been digitized That's 70% of companies in the SMB space are not using any digital technologies to manage their people was really astonishing But then also we had the luck that we have the insight from a friend of mine That was CTO of a company of a hundred people that were using Excel sheets And he kind of gave us that little notch to look deeper into the space and then yeah We were amazed by the opportunity that was there and I think the last five years was really capturing and building a product that Supports all those core flows within HR and now that we all have have built that system of record We have the opportunity to to build on top of that and solving more challenges of small and besides companies Was it ever hard to really get into it because usually you need to have experience the problem yourself before actually I mean most startups do right but before actually Filling that it was your your thing to solve this problem So I think one of the benefits of not having that experience ourselves and not having been an HR person herself was really That we had to take what now is part of our core values customer empathy really too hard So we really had to learn from our customers because we didn't know much about the problem of self So really from the day one talk to customers show what we had built learn if that's solving a problem If so watch and and what else they need to get there and I think that DNA of listening to customers Although we now by now Hopefully have developed some expertise about HR ourselves over the last five six years But still I think that DNA has been Remaining the company of everything we build working very closely to customers the way we develop also that not just the product But the services how we support our customers always trying to listen to them very closely and I think that initial Yeah, I guess Yeah, not not knowing that the space so well has helped us actually to build a better product in the end So I suppose when you started off it Wasn't that so easy maybe to raise money. I mean because HR take is something that the media is not really picking up on either I mean now probably and more but was it hard to actually get through It definitely was a lot harder than it is today and I'm not just talking about our own rounds But also just the overall space and Europe and all of this how the ecosystem has has evolved But particularly I think for us the the early days it was not bad that was harder because it forced us to really Figure out how we could what really matters for us at the time and we were able to then bootstrap for entire year and had 30,000 in recurring revenue when we raised our seed round Which by now you raise a series a much longer But I think that's cruelty and that nimble as in the beginning of not having the opportunity to raise money and really Needing much more proof points to to get to a first round of capital actually yeah helped us in the beginning So I think that's that's been been Not too bad in hindsight, but certainly I was much more convincing a lot more people in the early days where we're saying Oh, there's not a problem big enough problem to solve and and why why do you even build that at this time? It feels solved already and it is astonishing I think even for for me today how much opportunity there still left with five thousand customers today Which is point three percent of just a European market and and I think that proves how big that category is but Yeah, I think it was just overlooked for a really long time and not not invested enough and therefore we're glad to be now Yeah, being able to give that value to customers So if you talk a little bit about the beginning when you actually founded personio Well, did you have to do the sales yourself because I suppose you don't do that anymore, but how did you get to first customers? Yeah, I mean as probably every founder starting off was I was trying to to get to contact with any person I could find that the good thing about HR is that you Every person you know works in a company and the majority works actually in small and mid-sized companies And you could just ask them to get an intro to their HR team and then through that person connection I tried to get into a meeting and and show them our product and so the first round hundred customers was really me Yeah, not just selling but really convincing people to use but also pay for our product And I do think it's really important to early on even if it's small revenues Getting your customers your early customers to pay for it because then they're taking it serious And then they're actually using it and then you get that feedback And that's sometimes really painful feedback because they're now having high expectations or you too But that pushed you to really focus and solving their needs. But yeah, the first hundred customers was reselling ourselves and and from those learnings we then started to build up a team and And now of course, there's a much larger team supporting our customers than just myself Yeah, no, of course. I mean now you have 1,000 employees, right? Yeah 1,080 and I mean you all have five offices across Europe Is it difficult to kind of keep the culture because that's usually a problem, right? It is Clearly one of the most important challenges for every company that scales to solve. I do think it's In this case actually last year when we were opening both the Dublin office and Amsterdam and also growing Madrid and London quite a lot Covid in a way helped us with that because While I do I'm a big believer on bringing people together now as well We have a high flexibility for for our workforce But also we still have an office culture where we create great spaces for people to come together But during that time when we just opened up new offices was actually helpful that we could transfer the culture more effectively because everyone Whether you started now a Munich office or in Dublin where we're onboarded the same way and we're meeting the same people and therefore that cultural Transfer was easier and when I for the first time was allowed in to Dublin or to Ireland again I was able to visit our Dublin office this summer when we were 150 people out of the last time I was there was just Geraldine our chief revenue officer and And it still felt a lot like our Munich office and our Madrid office We just been much more established because that cultural That culture transfer has worked well that being said we're now still continuing to invest in things like Culture carriers so there's from both offices or from all offices across each other people being allowed to Move over for three months work from that office and then thereby distribute our values and operating principles across So about like recruiting people obviously everyone's to grow quickly and so on I mean are you involved anything still an recruitment process? Yeah, still all our hires include a founder interviews or our hiring process has five stages There's some deviation for more complex roles But every general role is interviewed first by HR then there's a team-lead interview of the person that will be a future Lead of that role and then we should already be at a stage Can that person do the role and then there are three more interviews peer value and founder interview to really figure out Does that person fit our culture and we feel we're raising the bar with with these additional hires and yeah I'm still spending 20% of my time on interviews. I'm not the only founder of course There's the three others, but we still all heavily in invest time ourselves. Yeah I did speak to one of your colleagues earlier and she said that she had to go through seven interviews before getting the job I mean, I think that's more than for you in the military. So I think that's high standards I mean do you Do you see that as I mean is your tool that you are actually doing helping you to actually recruit well as well or Do you need to have hands-on? So I think first of all it's important to say that I'm not smarter than anyone else in our recruiting process The one thing I can add besides of course having a ton of experience of having interviewed thousands of people by now is that I'm I can help with avoiding some of that urgency bias because of course I'd love to fill all of our open roles as quickly as possible And by the way if anyone is not a founder wants to search a role. We have 800 own roles out there However with these roles With that that growth in mind. I I also I'm detached enough that I can spot where where we're making shortcuts and where we are lowering the bar because we really need someone And it's really painful and think that's one of the harder things to do if you're growing really quickly And you need every person you have on the hiring plan ideally yesterday already And one of the hardest things for you to do then is to remind yourself that hiring someone Below the bar and hiring someone just because you need that person that might not fit your culture Or might not be the right person for the job will really have exponential effects down the line And therefore as painful it is to go through that stretch of waiting another month waving another quarter and some roles We've waited two years until we found Ross our chief people officer But now we're really confident that he's the right person for the role And I'm so glad that we didn't settle somewhere in between for a person that's lower standard And that's just that's not just on the executive level, but for every role across the business Well other startups that do actually I mean expand abroad and so on they have some problems because maybe they brand isn't well Well known yet and so on when they want to hire new great people I mean have you ever had that problems when going into new markets? We had a problem in Germany as well I think it's every every company and founder of a of a b2b company will have that challenge It's it's much easier to do that if you're Check out on carbon and sage or Spotify of course like a lot of consumers using your product not in the early days But still over time this so as a b2b company You always have a bit of that challenge of how do you build up your employer brand in your home market? But then also when you enter new markets, and I think one of the things which Our director talent Matina back back then ahead of which I did early on which I didn't thought was necessary But really paid off by now is hiring employer branding a role early on to really help us get the word out And it feels like an incremental effort, but it's the same as with marketing you You need to invest in brand early on you need to do those investments And and that then only pays off a year down the line But but then of course you're more known and you will have see that in the conversions of your applicants But also in the ditches overall funnel so Now you obviously I think you're in your Germany obviously and also the UK Netherlands Spain but you're not looking to enter the Nordics and also the Italy in France, right? So is it the same issues that all companies have like small companies in HR? Yeah, so the Nordics We actually have a Bigger savage team already selling to the market and quite some customers here as well Which I'm really excited by because I do think there's a lot of Tech a fiend companies in fact the Nordic market for us is in a way more interesting than the German market from their tech Affinities of companies are much more forward-thinking here than they are in our home market, which is great to see But when it comes to the adaptation of our product Of course, there is some areas like our contract creator Which is the same because you are anyway You can customize your contracts and all the fields that need to be signed and that's that doesn't matter For which which language or countries behind but when it comes to areas like the payroll or even things like absence tracking And how vacation rules are being made every market is a bit different and we need to adapt to that Luckily, we always knew that we didn't want to be a German solution But we want to be a European player and therefore we needed to early on think about how to architecture the system to make that Happen I think that's one of the benefits when you're a European company That will soon go into multiple markets as opposed to a US company that oftentimes only focuses then that one really large market for while and then The first and then they might be at a much later stage when they for the first time enter new markets And then all of a sudden they have to realize with the challenge that come with it So I think training that muscle early on both from the way that we both product But also the organization of different offices is something that is really helpful and one of the Benefits of being a European founder, I believe So why stick to Europe because that's really your thing right right now at least So I think there's two two answers one we believe the European market is Massive when it comes to SMEs and that's again one thing that's often been overlooked So you always think like oh if you want to be a large software company You need to go to US and that used to be true and it's still true for some categories if you for example selling to software companies Yes, there's much more software companies in in the US than there is in Europe if you're selling to enterprises large enterprises Yes, there is more really large enterprises in the US than there is in Europe But if you're selling to small and mid-sized companies and you're quite agnostic to the sector they're coming from like we are Then there's actually more SMEs in Europe than there is in the US So we can build a larger company only focusing on Europe than only focusing on the US And have more impact than digitize the market. That's much more underserved So these are some of the reasons to focus on Europe for now We also quite patriotic when it comes about the continent and really up-leveling and proving that you can actually build World-class leading and category defining companies from your base in your 40 European market And that being said I don't exclude that we ever go outside of Europe. I think it's about focus for now Not not doing too many things at the same time But I wouldn't exclude that we over time go beyond Europe the same way how some companies that Focus on the US for a really long time at some point go beyond US But we do believe that there's a ton of opportunity a ton of companies and organizations across the continent here Which we can continue to support until then So what about your investors because they obviously have quite a few I mean What do you think that I mean do you have an American investors for example? They don't want you to just come to The US then to take on the market now We have several US investors So we've the first one was sort of a mixed one which we got in our CSP with index ventures being both Europe and US So there you could say okay, they get Europe, but we then also brought on board Axial and that lightspeed and then marry tech which are all US headquartered funds and also in the most recent round three additional ones. So all of these firms are US US Have started in the US and have their main footprint there But I think that's the the big shift that has happened that they've Recognized how big the market is by now where in the early days and indeed from when we spoke with two investors now serious a Back then there were much more people that they were saying oh, so when are you coming to the US by now? No one asks us anymore. They actually say you build your company here And we we trust that this can be a 50 a hundred billion dollar company just focusing on the European market And I think that's that's the the mine shift that that only yeah has happened now and that's that only yes It's starting to prove out at the moment. Yeah, I mean obviously also I suppose when you are raising quite a lot of money the mid-level kind of money and the higher Mounts of money isn't as available from European investors was that also a necessary to to bring in American investors because of that I I do think there's There's a large amount of great funds now popping up all across Europe and that of course know the European market really well And therefore for early stages. I think it definitely makes sense to take on European money Over time. I hope this will also translate the same way into growth funds currently That's not the case and I think in a part from the fact that there's not as much capital on the growth side It also is that those funds or few funds that are of course don't have the same mix level of experience that some of our investors If you think of Meritech who brought came on our last round They were the first investor in sales force back in the days and then our sins have been pretty much in every Public sauce company they've been invested. So of course all these learnings both in the firm But also from their portfolio next week I'll be visiting them in San Francisco and they connect me with all their their great sauce found That's of course an opportunity you don't cat and that will only materialize and I'm hoping that of course Companies like ourselves can help the some of our earlier stage investors build up a portfolio of Companies and founders which they which then convince other founders to take money from them also at a later stage And then I think there's the the challenge at a really high level where we're getting into thought of the pre IPO phase now Where we're getting approached from pension funds from Canada and from other place around the world And in Europe unfortunately these pension funds often are allowed to directly invest in startups Not be because pension ones you don't really care about where that money comes from you want patient independent capital and And I'd be happy to have the teacher's pension front from from Germany with my Parents post being teachers invest into personia as opposed to the teachers pension fund from from Canada But unfortunately, they're currently not allowed. So I think that's also a shift that hopefully will happen over time Definitely, I think now they the pensions are mainly going into VC funds, right? So it's kind of but it's one step ahead. It was one step in between if even in Germany. They're currently going mainly into housing Which is also yeah retrieves them from from some great returns, but that is changing probably right it is so When you then Look at becoming this unicorn I mean I suppose for the last couple of races at least you haven't had to Kind of win the investors over but they have come to you, right? So when when was the switch there do you think? So I think it's I mean there's a No wall shift in the street that of course much more founders are in the strong position because there's just so much capital and If you're also an earlier stage by now a good company you oftentimes have Five six term sheets. I just spoke to on the phone with with one of my initial investments a while ago That is current raising their series a and they have six investors some from the US some from here all wanting to pile in money and Therefore, I think that's some of the shift. I do think the that covert has Driven that further as well because it made the whole industry more global and it made people invest based on zoom calls, which Didn't happen before and of course therefore allows You as a house in key or Munich or anywhere else based founder to raise from a fund. That's it's in New York or somewhere else But for us personally, I think We we had some interest around serious a Already, but then from from be onwards There was a lot of like preemption where people really wanted to get in quickly with processes That were really short and very efficient Which of course besides the fact that you get good valuations and then great funds It also just allows you to be very little distracted on fundraising I think that's really the real benefit about that is not about the the capital that sometimes can be distracting but really Being able to as a founder spend less time on fundraising and less time on convincing investors allows you to spend more time on your customers and building a product So most first-time founders they I mean they didn't always fail at the first startup, but they don't do ask great I mean we can look around I mean even like Daniel Eak. He founded a couple of startups before actually doing Spotify and I mean Niklas Sennström had a few ones before doing Skype Do you think that it was harder for you as a first-time founder to actually succeed in this I? Think it's a really good question. I think there's as with most things There's had willing headwinds and tailwinds of course as a first-time founder and Many in the audience will know that you you don't know anything right and therefore a lot of things You have to figure out for the first time where of course if I were to start a company again I would know a lot of things to do how to do them do them differently So that that are some of the tailwinds on the flip side However, I think what helped us as a founder team and also me personally was that we were Quite naive about a lot of things and therefore we took a lot of advice quite literal So take the very simple one people are the most important asset of your company So never compromise on recruiting if you're being told that as a first-time founder You believe that everyone to take extreme recruiting extremely serious and therefore you should do as well Over time we realized no one really tested egg does a series that we're doing but it really paid off to do So and so I think some of that naivety actually actually helped us It was it was a benefit for us But then ultimately and that's true both for for us at person you're the same way for for Daniel at Spotify Timing is such a big part of you being successful and timing is such a big part of luck Of course, we were at the time thinking this is the right time to start Spotify And I'm sure Daniel would have said First person you and Daniel would have said this was the right time to split Spotify But really only in hindsight you can tell that is that it happened to really be the right time And I think that's something neither first-time founders nor repeat founders just get right automatically But there's a lot of luck involved that your thesis at a beginning actually pays off So are your co-founders still at Sonya or have they checked out? No, what one one left around two years in because he didn't enjoy the scaling part as much And he also wanted to move away with girlfriend, but the other the others are still on board So we're still working together So what do you think? I mean, do you ever get like itchy feet and want to you know sell and just move to Spain and Get a better suntan or I don't know. I mean, what do you think? I mean, how long do you want to stay on? Well, first of all, we have an office in Madrid, which I love to visit and we're amazing roof tourists I want to look for a job in Madrid. I recommend to check out our office there But besides that, I don't really really don't feel that it I think I'm 31 years old There's probably also one of the benefits of your first-time founder that you have so much more leeway It's just in your life and I don't really if if I wear and I don't plan at all But if I were to sell the company today What else would I would do then and I don't think money is something that makes you happy alive particularly So what would you then do and I'm really enjoying my role? I really enjoyed the company and I really truly believe that we are at the very early beginnings of of the Opportunity at Bessonio and that's what excites me. That's the opportunity to a hat of building Proving to build that in Europe you can build a leading software company and that in Germany so far SAP has been the only large software company We really have in the country and and that's compared to the many software companies in the US is still small by now when you see how many are overtaking it and I think that Data opportunity is what excites me and therefore I don't have any horizon of how long I want to build a company We at some point will take Bessonio public, but that also is not an endgame or a goal We're striving towards but just a milestone and another find financing round with different kinds of investors Ahead of a much longer journey So if you look back doing over the six years, I mean it's it's just six years But what have been the I mean the most difficult decisions you had to make during those years? so I think Some of the most difficult decisions actually come at a point in time when you feel When you think it should get harder because in the beginning you're so much constrained with a lot of things that within those constraints You're you're you're of course pushing the boundaries. You're trying to do a little bit more with what you have you're trying to to kind of Convince that one additional iso. There's a lot of this hustling motion and then when you get to our stage where you have a lot of resources with with not just The financial resources which are ultimately limitless because you can always raise more money But also the the team of over thousand people you believe that oh you should get easier but now actually the decisions you take matter much more and are much harder to take because the Where you actually focus these resources and where you invest them and how you make sure that you're not Just because you do have a lot of resources do a ton of things in parallel and thereby not get anything done But really that that level of focus matters much more than it did in the early days when you were pushing the boundaries and hustling his way through So I do believe when it comes to for example our strategy that that's really hard hard conversation We always have in regards to what are the main thing a few things we want to make and how do we get the organization to understand That and how do we get all of ourselves aligned on we need to nail this and this is secondary to it So I think these are some of the really tough tough areas and challenges with your face when you get to to scale So what is what are you most worried about will happen then? I mean your your nightmare scenario? We're not gonna end on that It's a big challenge to get the focus right But I don't think it's a nightmare scenario for us to To focus on prior to as opposed to prior one that's just one thing where we also can learn I think the journey in nightmare one area where of course as as a Probably every software company or platform, but also Especially when you like ourselves are very sensitive data. Of course a data breach is one you're always Working hard to to make sure it never happens. So if you think about nightmares, it's probably the one thing I would think of So, okay, so if you would like just think ahead then what is the big next big thing for you? So I think one of the really big things we've recently Started off was creating our own category. So if we've started digitizing developing an existing category and democratizing HR software to SMEs What we've done a few months ago was launch what we call people workflow automation Which is that layer on top of everything we do that actually it makes HR go beyond HR and actually has Includes people pros that run across the entire organization that run through twos like slack like Microsoft teams and like many others and have them Automate across the business and that's that's something that's it's a new category to think that in an integrated way and Yeah, that's a really exciting area for us to invest and really not just You know get companies from zero to one, but now for accelerate on the base of that of that Digitization which we've achieved with many of our customers already and that's really exciting for us to do at the same time Of course the the international station and going beyond across Europe Is is really exciting and seeing the teams here in the Nordics and other areas Really get traction find customers and bring the same value to those that we did in some of our initial markets is great to see Are you ever worried about the competition I I'm very little worried about competition not because I think We're just better than everyone else and that's that's not something we should be worried about but I do think in Markets like ourselves where the market is so large and The relationships you build with your customers are so enduring with many of the customers that signed up that I signed up in 2015 most of them are still customers today and therefore it's not about now Where we're the food delivery business and we're grabbing back and forth at one customer that on a one-day Orders with delivery here on the next day with with wall Dolly Farando or whatever, but really We were building long lasting relationships and therefore I think for us focusing on competition and what they are doing would be much more Detracting us from from that focus. I just spoke about with regards to our strategy with regards to our customers and really truly solving their needs and therefore I think if you're operating in a software company in a similar space like us It's really about yeah, focusing on your customers and and then you'll that determines whether you're successful not your competition Yeah, there's a big space. So with that, thank you very much. I know for joining me here today. Thank you Thank you Mimi great to meet you