 We are varied culture, different industries, different societies we have. So the demands, the requirements of the society and stakeholders are also different. Education is a complete, it must be open-ended. It must promote and give the opportunity to the students to pursue as per their desires. There are millions of courses and millions of topics there. And with a few clerical people sitting in your, at Delhi office, will you be able to recognize and evaluate the credits and equivalents and recognitions of credits? It is very tough. It is impossible. So far, we are paying the fees per semester or per year. But now after ABC, it is going to be per course. Every course will be charged. Don't you think that it is going to commercialize it? A hidden agenda is the government of India is planning to make a city centre. And they want to create a citizens of their choice. That is the intent of, the basic intent of this framework. Hello. Welcome to NewsClick. The central government recently released a document on the National Higher Education Qualification Framework. What is this framework? What does it hold? When it's implemented, how will it be for the next generation of students? To speak about this, we have with us, educationist Jawahar Nesan, who has been a vice chancellor of many universities. Hello, sir. Thanks a lot for joining us. Sir, can you tell us why was a new framework drafted and how did it go about the drafting process? Actually, the draft framework itself says that it aims to facilitate the recognition of different types of qualifications we have in different academic settings in the country. Because there are many states having their own pattern of education system and different universities are trying to offer different qualifications, like BA, Masters and postgraduate studies and doctoral studies in different formats. So, they say that if we standardize the system and centralize it, it would be possible easy for the stakeholders, like the industry people, employers and even the higher education institutions, where students are seeking enrollments in admissions and higher education. So that they can use these qualifications across the country, because it is going to follow one pattern. So, that is the purpose, but most of the countries who have implemented a standard nationwide common framework have also claimed so. There is no deviation in the objectives of this thing. But the main thing is you have to make it so generic so that it can be applied in a diverse academic settings, where the educational requirements are different, where the demands of the industries and the necessary skills required by the industry and the society are very much different. Because it is contextual in nature that it has to reflect the regions, always higher education or even school education is like this. So, you cannot standardize the skills, the knowledge supposed to be attained by the learners. So, if you do so, you are standardizing and it is going to make a uniform kind of skills and knowledge across the country. So, the educational institutions will not be able to innovate their deliveries, educational delivery process. They cannot innovate their curriculum and they cannot connect the curriculum to the society in different parts of the country, because we are varied culture, different industries, different societies we have. So, the requirements of the society and stakeholders are also different. So, you cannot standardize, that is one point. The other point is that they want to vocationalize the qualifications. Whether it is BA, BE, MBBS or postgraduate studies or even PhDs, they say that they want to vocationalize it. Vocationalization in that sense is the country leads skillful laborers and we are in a deficiency. We have scarcity of technically skillful workforce in the country. So, that means that they want to create more laborers and skillful laborers. That is fine. I don't mind about it. Any country should have the ability to promote or create the human potentials to satisfy the requirements. But it should be optional. You cannot trust upon anybody through your standardized system. And it is going to... You see, for instance, they have created different exit and entry points in the course of studies, whether it is first degree, master's or PhD. You can exit anytime or you can enter back anytime. But the conditions that they have laid out is that once you fail, you fail to pass through the examinations and things and you will be laid out and you have to exit. And you have to prepare and reappear and clear the examinations to come back and go through and pursue the studies. So, the earlier kind of systems are gone now in this framework. So, that means most of the students will be discouraged from continuing their studies. So, eventually what will happen? Dropouts will be increasing. And the occasionalization is coming here during the exit point. Every time a student exits, at that time they give 10 credit worth of coaching on some skills. And that skill is what other skills are you going to give? Now, do you have the infrastructure and human potential to coach millions and millions of students who are going to exit at every milestone in their studies? Do you have the workforce? And are you going to impart the 21st century skills which are highly demanding? Or are you going to give operational level skills? Are you going to promote operators? Or the 21st century skills necessary for the production and means of production that is going to be driving the economy in the 21st century? Cannot because you don't have the human resource and you don't have the equipments and infrastructure to impart such skills and that should be an integral part of education. It cannot be an additional or an add-on kind of skills and knowledge. Why don't you build such skills and knowledge in the curriculum itself and offer them instead of giving them 10 credit, two months training? Is it enough to get skilled to go and work as a workforce, a technical workforce? So this is completely a decent based educational system. In Tamil, we call it as Vakesh Kullak Kalbi. That means that it is traditionally, the students are going to follow the traditional jobs, family jobs and they cannot mobilize between jobs, between occupations, from lower end to the higher end. So those were the bottom most layers of the society whose occupations are traditional and family oriented and decent based and they will be encouraged to go back and do the same decent based jobs and occupations. They cannot get intergenerational occupational mobility and get their due stakes in the emerging opportunities and job and occupations and economic activities. So education is a complete, it must be open-ended. It must promote and give the opportunity to the students too to pursue as per their desires. But it is discouraging students. And also, you look at the fundamental centrality of this system is ABC, Academic Bank of Credit. If you look at that, the credits are managed, maintained, implemented, recognized, authorized by the university. Universities have their own statutory bodies like Academic Council and syndicates or sedits and they are the constitutional bodies. Like the parliament of India, legislating for the country, the syndicate and the academic council is like a parliament and they are empowered to recognize, to identify, to accredit and to authorize the credits, who you are sitting in Delhi to recognize. There are millions of courses and millions of topics there. And with a few clerical people sitting in your, at Delhi office, will you be able to recognize and evaluate the credits and the equivalents and recognitions of credits? It is very tough. It is impossible. What they are trying to do is to promote the digital online educational system. And because the ABC cannot be practically conducted offline in the classrooms, because students pursuing here can take, for instance, courses in Banaras in the university. In that case, can he go and study there? Cannot. It is only possible online. That means, why do you promote online? Because the World Trade Organization is promoting such online educational services, because education is a trade under God's agreement. And you can get services from across the sea also and across the country who are dominant in the education sector, dominant in the sense that market dominance, not academic excellence. And these private sector people having the market muscles, they will penetrate into the system and commercialize. So, so far we are paying the fees per semester or per year. But now, after ABC, it is going to be per course. Every course will be charged. Don't you think that it is going to commercialize it? It is. So, there will be no reservation. And are you going to give any reservation to disadvantaged students to take courses in IIT Chennai or IIT Delhi? And who will be able to access those credits, the courses in such top institutions in the country? Is it possible for a person sitting in a village who doesn't know any idea how to work to take and where to contact and who is not having any access to internet connectivity and things? Do you expect them to take courses across the country in different top institutions? It is not possible. So, in all respect, this is... Finally, I would like to say the hidden agenda is the government of India is planning to make a citizenry. This is the final point I would like to comment on it. They want to create a citizens of their choice per their desire. And they are in collusion with the super special communities, specially cultivated communities and the market forces. So, this triangulated coalition is trying to create a citizenry in this country. And this citizenry should follow the kind of nationalism that this right-wing government ruling this country. So, it is a Jhingais nationalistic and fascist nationalistic framework. And they want to create a citizens of their choice. That is the basic intent of this framework. So, who was involved in the drafting process? Who are the stakeholders who have created this framework? And where have they taken their inputs from? Actually, they have involved a few academics, academicians and some bureaucrats are also involved in the committee. And per the direction of the UGC, they have started formulating this. But without any consultations with any of the academic stakeholders, or educational stakeholders. For instance, you compare the development of this framework with the European framework. The European Union has been working for 20 years to develop a framework. Still, it is off-baked. Whereas these guys have just decided for six months and they created one framework with few guys. And without any taking inputs from the stakeholders, from institutions, from teachers, from students, from other employers and industries, without taking input, they have just decided themselves. And finally, one fine day, they gave two weeks and three weeks time for public consultations, not giving enough time for us to even respond. And then they closed the door. Is this the way a common framework should be created? It is not. You look at even Australia or England or even the European Union, who have a common framework. They have established this for several years, engaging all stakeholders. Even now today, the social dimension of the European common framework, higher education framework, is yet to be arrived. They say that we are not able to even think how the social dimensions, like the social impairments, disadvantages, could be resolved through the common framework. They are, after 20 years, that is their experience. In a diverse, very much casteist kind of structure we have in this country, most of the, I think, more than 90% of the students would be affected by this. What does this framework say about value-based education? Value-based education is the fundamental theme behind the framework. They have stated general skills, technical skills, educational skills and many things. But the main theme underlies is the value-based education, where they want the learner to be an obedient citizen. And they say that you must listen to the constitution, you must be obedient, you must learn all the ethics, the values. And the values, they also have quoted non-violence, peace. See, there are so much values. Say, if I want to be a violent person, and if my constitution allows me, why do you want me to emphasize non-violence then? Why do you quote, is it the only value you have? And what is your stand on the ethics and values? You are going to propagate your kind of value system. Perpetrated by the minority super-class communities. And it will be inflicted upon the majority communities. And their value systems, whose value anyway, are you going to teach? You go across any part of the world, even Malaysia, they also have some common framework. These are all underdeveloped countries, where they never talk about value. Because if you talk about value, different communities, different cultures, have different value system, you cannot commonize the value system. That's why you should be very much careful to be open enough, to be so generic enough, so that they can accommodate their values, respectively. Who you are sitting in Delhi, talking about emphasizing your values, deciding, defining your values, whose value is it? So that is why I said that they are trying to implement their ideals, you know, to be blunt, I would say it is the Hindutva ideals of this current government. And that is the value that they want to incorporate into the curriculum. And they want to create the citizens of this country, to be Hindutva citizens. That is the ultimate goal of value-based education in this country. So is that what triggered you to write a book on it, within a matter of 10 days, a symbol of totalitarian nationalism? What triggered you? Of course, I feel that as a citizen of this country, and as a responsible academician, it is my duty to enlighten my colleagues and my fellow citizens on this. Let them decide. I'm not lying. I'm not a politician. I don't go for votes. See, the thing is, not only me, every fundamentally, every citizen has a responsibility to reflect upon it, because it is deciding their fate. And it is not... My concern is this should not be seen as an educational framework. It is a social framework. They want to create a kind of a society they desire. And the only way you can penetrate and create and transform that society is education. And they take this as the framework as an advantage and as a tool to achieve their goals. And that is the ultimate thing. So that means every citizen should look at this framework, not purely as an educational framework, but it is a part and parcel of their society, their livelihood and their evolution. So it's every citizen's job to reflect upon it and take a call on it, whether it is right or wrong. Thank you, sir. Thank you for giving us a brief on what the higher education framework is detailing. Thanks a lot. Thanks for watching. And we have more videos coming up on the topic. Please keep a watch.