 Good morning, and welcome to Moments with Melinda. My name is Melinda Moulton, and I am your host. And today I have with me Peter Halby. Hey, Peter, how are you? Hi, Melinda. I'm good. Nice to be with you. Thank you so much for joining me. Let me tell my viewers a little bit about you. Peter is the co-founder of Xeno Mountain Farm. He's a guitarist, father, weather enthusiast, trash collector, bus driver, and surfer. Peter and his brother Will, both UVM alumni, received the Fenn School 2017 Distinguished Alumnus Awards. Xeno Mountain Farms' mission is to support lifelong friendships between people of diverse abilities. The camp rejects the binary opposition of able and disabled. That sound correct? Sounds great. Yeah. I've always had a problem with the word disabled. And I was really glad to see this in your website. So thank you for that, because I do not believe that human beings are anything, let alone disabled. You're just abled in a much more different way. Yes. I mean, I think we always want to, certainly in our community, look at people for all the wonderful things that they can do. And so often in the disability world, it is, yeah, things you can't do. So I've been using the word a lot, neurodiversity. Yeah. Great. They just think differently in many ways, so much better. And there's a lot of ... Yeah, go ahead. Yeah. I think it's society that has messed this up and has limited people and limited our thinking around individuals. And we certainly want to break that open and show the world kind of this untapped resource that is in the disability world. It's like some of the most talented, creative, beautiful, wonderful, caring, kind, innovative people I know have disabilities. But it's like they're not defined by their disabilities. And it's almost like one little part of their life, but it becomes the whole thing that's how society looks at them, and it's still wrong. That's right. They're oftentimes pushed in the shadows. So I want to tell my viewers as we're speaking with Peter Hobbie, who's the co-founder of Xeno Mountain Farm, that you can go to their website, which is www.XenoMountainFarm.org and visit their website. It's playful. It's informative. It's lovely. I had the most fun just exploring your website. So thank you for that, Peter. Great. Great. So let's start at the beginning, because that's always where I like to begin. Can you share a little bit about your childhood and where you grew up and what your childhood was like? Sure. I grew up in a family of three kids. I'm the youngest outside of Boston in Concord, Massachusetts, wonderful childhood, but very kind of, I didn't do a lot as a child outside of my own little community. And I think the big moment for me was as a teenager, I started working at a camp for people with disabilities, like as a young kid, like 15. And it was a real mind-opening experience where I kind of got real responsibility for the first time. I was caring for somebody at that stage who had cerebral palsy, and I was truly responsible for somebody else. It got me out of my head, which I think a lot of, at least me, when I was that age, I was like, whatever was me happening to me, and this expanded my horizons had changed the way I saw individuals that I had all these preconceived notions about, as many of us do, about folks with disabilities. And it was a beautiful experience, and I have to reflect back on it a lot, because as an adult, some, gosh, 30 years, 35 years later, I'm still doing it, I'm living in the disability world. And I'm still, sort of, from that early, early experience where my mind was changed in a big way. Fascinating. My mother's best friend, Mrs. Post, had a daughter, Susie, who was disabled and was in a wheelchair and couldn't speak. And two days a week, my mother would take Susie, bring Susie to our house and help take care of her, and I'd help feed her, and in order to alleviate Mrs. Post's burdens, and she had four other children, she had five kids, and so I get that, I so get that, and I honor you in that. Was there, would you say, who would you say was your greatest inspiration that moved you into the work that you're doing today at Zeno? I don't know if it's an individual, but it really was this world that I've discovered in my, with the disability world, like I, there were so many people, so many lessons and so many, sort of, different ways of communicating, moving, experiencing everything, both Monday and day-to-day, having a cup of coffee to, trying to go skiing, to do something creative artistically, or, you know, with movie making, or, it just, every angle of life was altered and made more creative when it was done with, you know, folks with disabilities and folks who do all these things differently. So it was just sort of that collective experience of just like keeping on, it was like everything that we tried, I mean, when I was doing it as a young kid, and then when we started running our own programs, and it was almost like everything we did when we had this lens of understanding and trying to get the best out of people, everything was enhanced, it became better. It was made greater, it was made greater. Yeah. So, so talk, talk to me a little bit about the Holby brothers. Yeah, I've got an older brother, Will, who's been on this journey with me, along with my wife and his wife, too, but Will and I were, you know, grew up, you know, really, really close, and then we would say we sort of, we drifted away a little bit in his sort of post-college years, and then we came back together in this love of trying to start this camp. We found this dream property together with our partners, and that has brought us close together, and I mean, we're deep in it, we meet every day. You're family, I mean, it's a family, and you've been in, and you're the younger of the two, and were there only two brothers in the family? Yeah, we have an older sister who's wonderful, too, but it's, you know, it's interesting talking to other folks who run businesses with, you know, with a brother, and there's a lot of, you know, a lot of folks are like, how, how can you do that? Like, that seems so impossible, and it has its challenges, but I would say it also has this, like, the reward of that, well, we do, we compliment each other, but we also, you know, we have this, like, trust and understanding, like, we are, we're in it, and I can, you know, we can communicate really well, and, and then, you know, and then we have our partners involved, too, with, you know, it's my wife and his wife, so, like, there's a real family dynamic, it has complications, sure, but there's lots of beauty, and, and I think we're, we're able to be really productive, I'm in a really wonderful way, but you also were raised with love in your families. So let's, let's, let's move on to the work that you have dedicated most of your life to, and that is Xeno Mountain Farm, which is located in Lincoln, Vermont, and you are the co-founder, along with your wife, Illa, and your brother, Will, and his wife, Vanessa. Talk to us about what gave you the inspiration and vision to create a most magnificent place for people with and without neurodiversity in other marginalized communities. We, you know, as, as we had sort of been in the, a lot of us, we were all in the field of disability, so my, my wife was, was and still is an OT, Will, my brother was a special ed teacher. Vanessa was getting into adaptive horseback riding. I was in the, I had moved on to doing adaptive sports. So we were in this world, but we always were like, someday we should bring all our ideas together and, and find sort of the dream place where we could, you know, plan our routes, have a, have a property, a real home, and, and sort of grow, grow community out of this home. That was, that was the take on the farm. It was like, and, and initially we were like, oh, we should, we should have a real proper farm. But of course, running a farm is incredible to us, and it's so much work. And I, and maybe, maybe as we keep growing, we will get a proper farm, but it really was about the far, the community aspect of it all. And, you know, Vermont, I went to, to UVM, fell in love with Vermont. And it was, you know, Will and I were both like, that this is the place, like Vermont is the place where we can do this. And we were so fortunate in 2008, there was property available. I, I look around now, like it's, it would be almost impossible to find any place right now. But we did, we found this dream, dream place. We're on top of a mountain in central Vermont, with incredible, like views forever, like Adirondack, Green Mountains, Lake Shenin Plain. It's stunning. So we knew we, this is a place where people would want to come back to. It's so inspiring to be here, and where we could create lots of, lots of wonderful communities. So, so share a bit about the history of Zeno, because it started back in 2005. Yep. Yeah. So we got into the camp idea prior to finding this home where we were, we would just say, let's, let's bring a group of our friends together and do something creative or something active or adventurous. And we did all sorts of things. So like we, we would go to my brother was living in Los Angeles at the time. And he was like, well, everyone makes movies here. We should get everyone together and, and make a movie, make an original movie. And, you know, we, it was easy for us because we were in the world of disability. We knew tons of people who would be into that idea. So we just would do it and just get together and all we would stay in Will's apartment and bring in bunk beds and mattresses. And we would all just kind of live together and make a movie. And then, and those movies kind of kept growing where it was just like we would, we would show it to people and people, this is so cool. What are you going to do next year? And be like, well, we'll do something different and better. And it just, we kept snowballing. So the movie theme became exciting. And then we would also do camps down in Florida where it was, it was because I was in the adaptive sports world. It was like, oh, we should bring folks down to Florida and do these, do some windsurfing and canoeing and all these sports. It was like, all these adaptive sports that we've been doing up in the Boston area down there. And so we would do that. We went on road trips. We, we were part of a whole movement of starting camps in Mexico and Guatemala and like really adventurous things that just sort of kept popping up and we just kept on like going forward. And so we over the years collected, we have lots and lots of friends. And we were always like, OK, someday we should find the real home, like, because, but it was like, you know, I was living in hotels or sort of RVs or whatever. It's like, OK, we need a home. And that's how Vermont kind of grew. And what year was that that you settled in Vermont? 2008. We, we, so the four of us had this where was before we all had kids and we said, let's just spend September, I mean, and drive around Vermont and look for something beautiful that could happen, like where we'd have space. And so it was a great, like, even if we fail, I was like, OK, it's a great project like driver on Vermont on the month of September. I mean, come on. So we rented a place in Goshen, Vermont and this and and we drove all around and found this place in Lincoln and right away. We're like, yes. Well, so you mentioned in your, you know, in in your website, you talked to us about social equity at Zeno and why this is so important. Can you talk a little bit with our viewers about this? Love to. Yes, so well, a big thing for us was that because we were working in the disability world, right, it was always under this premise where, you know, you would have the it's the teacher and the student and the teacher would be the non-disabled person. The student would be the disabled person. It would be, you know, the staff, the client. Like it was always this sort of dynamic where it was where people disabilities were around paid staff, which is, I mean, it's part of that world. And we get it. But in our mind, it was like we we wanted to bring people together on sort of this even plane, because that way you could have genuine friendships between people with or without disabilities. And there wasn't sort of that natural hierarchy there would be when there's somebody paid in the dynamic. So we kept playing around with the idea like, how could we do this? Like if we want brought a group together to do something well, you you could either pay everyone the same or you just you don't pay anyone. And then you figure out ways that people you can bring people together. So that's that's how we got to that model. And what's the model? Did you pay everybody or does everybody not? We don't we don't be able to pay everyone. That would be a huge budget. Now, we just we just say people come and in a way it acts kind of like like a vacation or, you know, people do take time off from work. They use they use their vacation days. They, you know, some people are able to just do it. All sorts of different reasons. And sometimes we'll support folks to be able to come into it. But, you know, in the end, when everyone is at a camp or a retreat that we do, everyone's there for the same reason. And it's to support each other. And and the beauty that happens with that is that everyone is has a chance to contribute to the group equally. And we and we and that's a real important thing is that that everyone has a job at that, you know, and and it makes everyone matter to the whole process of everything we do. And all jobs are important, whether it's driving the bus, sweeping the floor, cooking the dinner, you know, helping someone to the bathroom, you know, everything. It's like it's vacuuming. Like it's all those all need to get done. And we just figure out how to do it and everyone's sort of celebrated for what they do. And, you know, it's like it creates this world where everyone matters. And then so often in the disability world, that is not thought about. It's like literally it's thought about as sort of care versus like contributing. Well, personal care assistance, right care, which are important. But in this environment, volunteers volunteer their time. They don't get paid and it's and it's and it's an experience. It's a moment, yeah, lives with great return in investment that doesn't have to do with the greenback dollar. And it's what's so exciting is that it happens that everyone, whether you have a disability or not, kind of is there for the same reason and you're there for a community and there for each other. And that's like so it's just so wonderful for me to like be or be in that in that group. And I think everyone who comes back does that for that reason of like, it's just this great feeling like to be in a real productive, creative, innovative community. It's is there a boss who puts out the list of duties and stuff? There must be somebody who coordinates. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I definitely as like the director, look, you know, make sure systems are working one up. But but there's a lot of leadership that jumps in. So someone we call it contributions, that example, where like we organize like everyone gets their name on it on a paper, a clothespin. And like and then there's all these jobs on this board. And we just like be like, all right, Steve, you're in charge of and it's like like DJing the dishes, you know, like or like, you know, cleaning the bus, all these things. Like it was everything that needs to happen, right? And maybe our world should be run this way. I mean, what I'm going to tell you, it's really fun. It's such a great concept. So how do folks volunteer to my viewers out there who are learning about Zeno and about you, Peter? How do they get involved? How can they get involved? Well, it's always just kind of reach out. It's always like kind of a personal like zoom like this. It's like kind of the first first step. And, you know, people find us in all sorts of ways, whether they they've seen one of our movies or they see us out and about, you know, from my viewers, who maybe have never heard about Zeno Mountain Farm and have never met you. Is it is the best way to reach out is to go to your website? Yeah, go to the website. We'll we'll I'll send you some things where you can get to know us more and then we'll set up a zoom call. It's usually the process because it's, you know, to come to camp. We all live together. It's a pretty, you know, intimate experience. And we sort of want to make sure it's a great match. You know, a good fit. So that there are for or for people who want who want who have neurodiverse family members who might be involved. The best way to get involved with Zeno is to go to their website, which is www.ZenoMountainFarm.org. And it's a fabulous website. And that's how you can get involved. So I bet there's a lot of people out there watching this show who may not have heard about Zeno and might want to get involved. So that's the best way to do it. Now, can you share with us, Peter, a few stories about folks who have been involved with Zeno over the years? Share a story of a person or a couple of people and what their what their experience was at Zeno or is? Sure. I mean, I think one of the beauties, you know, for me is that we we invite people back year after year so it becomes this sort of lifelong connection friendship. And because I've been in it for, I mean, yeah, 30 years plus, like I and I'm known folks for that long. There's, you know, just a rich history. Anybody you know for that long, like it's it's just a beautiful thing. Like, I mean, we all have sort of these. I mean, hopefully everyone has lifelong friends. Like that is that is like a real gift to to to people. And so I guess I I've really enjoyed sort of knowing folks and then like seeing how seeing their growth and seeing like maybe where I can can say like, hey, I think you can do that or I've seen you do that before. Like you could do this. So, I mean, and I, you know, and in the it, it so often doesn't exist in the in the disability world, right? A lot of times people have pods of friends, but but maintaining that throughout one's journey of life, it's it's hard. Like people move in and out of group homes, people move in and out of workspaces. People maybe have a great high school thing, which ends at twenty two. But like there's typically not like high school reunions and bringing the groups back together again. And like that's I think where, you know, can have its have its place where it's like we are this thread that's like going through folks life. I mean, individual stories. Gosh, I mean, there's this wonderful guy, AJ, who lives down in Georgia. And he he's got he was his dream was to become an actor. And he's he had several paws down there. And he he's like never had any opportunity to act or do anything other than outside of high school. He reached out to us and was like, I really want to act. I'm an actor like, please, please. And we sort of took a chance and said, like, OK, AJ, we'll we'll figure out how to get you up here. And he came to Vermont and he just is this amazing, amazing man and a real actor like loves the craft, loves like learning about camera angles and lights and and and and just diving in so deep. And we shot a Western movie with him and he was the star. And while we were shooting that Western, a documentary film crew made a movie about it. And he sort of became the star of the film, like his journey of being for the first time in in a real movie. And that that documentary ended up being on HBO. And AJ sort of became famous in this way for being an actor when like being an actor was always his dream. So that's that's a good one. And what a great story. So I mean, Zeno provides the opportunities for everyone to develop their talents. And and also Zeno's value is being based on folks feeling needed and wanted. And you state that that is a human right. And and you provide that at Zeno that everyone that everyone feels that they are needed and they are wanted and they are they're revered for their talents and not looked upon as having as being disabled. They are able. Yeah, yeah, it's like everyone has to get up and do and there's shit to do. You know what I mean? Like you got it. And I think that's a human right. I think we have to have that. Otherwise, what, you know. Yeah, you have to have a sense of purpose. And that doesn't happen oftentimes because you have because it's care. OK, we have to care when people aren't people aren't given the opportunity to show who they are and be who they are. And you do that at Zeno where everybody has chores, everybody gets up. They have a responsibility. They're they're needed. They're part of a whole. So now let's move on to this important part of your work is how does Zeno Mountain Farm support its operations? And if any of my viewers would like to donate to support your work, how best can they do that? Is that again through through the website? Through the website, reach out to me. I'd love love meeting folks interested in what what we're doing. And yeah, we were we're a nonprofit. We we have to raise money to do what we do. We have a beautiful network of friends who support us, who, you know, I think we have a nice way of sort of sharing our story. A lot of times through through our art, you know, we put on a big musical production in the summertime, we put on a big. We do a dance marathon, which I would always pitch, which happens in the fall. I tried to get you there, Melinda, but next year we'll get you there. I'm sure you'll get me there. I'm so sorry. That's that's really fun. We're all our different communities. I love to dance and I want to I know Rowan loves to dance. I'm going to bring you with me. Now, films, films do not often include people with neurodiversity or with disabilities. And you just talked about the fellow who was in the documentary. But your films are by and include your campers. And the films are about pirates, time travelers and Zac Efron. And people and people love your films. So are you working on a film right now? Are you planning one for the summer? Yeah, well, our last film was called Best Summer Ever. And that was an original musical. And the most inclusive, well, we've people have said in the world, it's most inclusive film to say disability, inclusive film ever made. We had people on all sides of the camera and all aspects of it with disabilities and that were really and that added to the whole thing. Right. It's like it's how we created what what we made. And the movie has been really successful. It's on Hulu. Yeah, it's on Hulu. It premiered some by Best Summer Ever. Best Summer Ever streaming on Hulu. I mean, let's let's everyone go and and and and watch that film. And all from Vermont. Yeah. All from Vermont. For people to see your films, it's best to see them on your website, because I know you've got them up on your website. Yes, they can certainly go there and watch it. And to watch all your films. A lot of your films, most of your films are on your website. Yes, you could see that. That's what we were talking about earlier. You can see like our journey where we I mean, they were so silly back in the day where we're like it's like handheld cameras doing like some cheesy soap opera to, you know, becoming more pro and and and all that. But now on Hulu and now on Hulu. I know. I mean, you know, I would say that it's it's it is this untapped resource. I mean, we we we know that like it is. I mean, you talked about how disabilities not portrayed in the movies. And, you know, it's 20 percent of the 25 percent of the population, right? And it's less than one percent of disabled characters on the screen. And then certainly when you do see it, it's usually played by somebody who's non disabled. It's usually done in a real like inspirational way or like a real like villainous way. There's and it's it's shaped the way the world sees this population, right? And it's such a large population. So it's super, I think, important for us to make these films that just have people being people, not being, you know, disabled. Like it's like literally like it's like the mechanic at the store or that the guy who's got the girlfriend who, you know, whatever, like, it's just people. It's like being who happened to be. Yes, because it's all it's like, oh, how did you get in the wheelchair? Tell me about that, like, you know, all you must be like, it's like that's what it's all about when it's just like it's one aspect of somebody's life. It's not the fact that in the Barbie movie, they had a Barbie that was in a wheelchair and I thought it was she was out. No, we need we need so much more of this. Yeah, yeah, because the world's missing out. That's what I say. The world is missing out. That's so true. So you call Zeno Mountain a farm, but it's not a farm, right? You don't not yet. You're not far. Yeah, we're working, working on it. And on your website, you have a Xenogram. What is that? We were trying to we were trying to play on on Instagram and just and say that this was the place to go see sort of what's what's going on with Zeno. It was like that was art. So we called it the Zeno grant, but that's it. Do people do people ever just go up to the to the camp and just drive up to visit you? Do people ever drop in or is it by appointment only or how does that work? Yeah, it's yeah, it's we love to I mean, we love visitors. But yeah, we should give you a proper tour. And you know, it's hard when somebody shows up. And I mean, it's not sort of like that kind of a drop in. So so for my viewers, I suggest again that you go to ZenoMountainFarm.org to the website. And if you're interested in getting involved in any form or fashion, reach out to Peter or the folks up there to get involved. So so you have camps and retreats and are you are you're not active now? You're only active really in the warmer months. Is that so? No, we're we're year round. And what what started as just in folks in the disability world is expanded to what we we have said is folks with isolation, like any any group that is experiencing any sort of form of isolation and needs community, we would we would welcome and want to work where that's, you know, so for us, it's it's grown into a chronic illness retreat, a veterans retreats, folks in sobriety. And yeah, that's I saw that you did a veterans group and people who are looking for sobriety. So you're expanding more into other areas of a human need and human character. And so you're you're a year round organization. We are. Yeah, it's almost every month of the year. We have something going on and it's yeah. I mean, you know, Vermont offers wonderful things to do year round. Certainly that we we partnered with the folks over at Vermont Adaptive and do all these ski camps, which are really, really fun and dynamic. And then the wintertime also is a is a nice time to come up and do things more, you know, quieter, like you can do some art projects you can do some sort of wellness, healing kind of things. And, you know, it's it's a beautiful people can find out about that by going to your website, you have that on your website. Yeah, yeah, that we do. And it's all and it's always like I mean, if you are somebody in the cancer community or chronic illness community, just reach out to me with that sort of highlight, you know, like, oh, I'm interested in this one. And then it always becomes a conversation. And so if you want to book retreats, is that can they do that as well? Can they book the retreats or you just manage and do the retreats? Yeah, we're we're running all the things that we do. Yeah, and with partners. So the the like the cancer one, we partner with somebody the chronic illness won't partner with some of the veterans. We do as well. The all the disability focused ones, we run just ourselves. Well, you know, I've come to the end of our show here, Peter, and I want to send out a very enthusiastic Bravo to you and your family and all of the friends and campers who have come to Zeno Mountain Farm. And they found love, support, enthusiasm, creativity, joy and purpose. The mission of Zeno is one that is so needed for a most gifted and important group of our society who often are left in the shadows. You and Zeno have brought so many into the light and given to them the personal glow of accomplishment and self love. And thank you for being on my show and for being who you are. Peter Harvey, I really appreciate this time with you today. Thank you, Melinda. That's beautiful. Thank you. Wishing you a happy holiday and I hope to see you soon, my friend.