 What's up, everybody? This is Mangus from the future. This one went way longer than I expected So I time stamped each hero in a pinned comment So you can just kind of zip around however you wish and I also put a link to the final ranking rearrangement I also got really drunk as this one came in along What's up, sweet dicks? I'm the Mangus. You are awesome And a lot of people keep asking me about doing a tier list for fault And I do not feel qualified to do a tier list on my own So I elicited the help of these two fine gentlemen the bearded Wolverine and Windu the mace now if you don't know who they are They're gonna tell you who they are. So what we start with bearded bearded introduce yourself, brother Welcome everybody. I am the bearded Wolverine. You're Michigan wonder fault partner and partner panel Co-host with these two fine fellows down here. So welcome everybody and I hope you enjoy the show and Windu What up on me? So I'm Wendy the mace aka Windu basically just been keeping up with all these projects after Paragon right our dear beloved aka And yet just here chilling Literally just got in the I was a little bit late as usual. So go figure boy I'm excited to see what uh what these results are gonna lean towards because we do also have a live chat kind of tuning in That might influence some of what we say. So that's gonna be a juicy. Oh, yes indeed. So Let's break this down real quick. So s tier What we're considering s tier is a hero that you must pick like every game or you at least need to learn So, you know how to go against them a tier is a great pick and You probably should learn how to go against them B tier is kind of a situational pick kind of depends on what the enemy team has or what your team has See tier is definitely depends on what the enemy team and your team has you can only pick them in certain situations And D tier is just trashed never pick and you don't even need to learn because nobody's gonna play him which This is gonna be rough. This is gonna be difficult because I think fault is actually pretty well balanced. Um, I Can't think of anybody. Hmm. I could think of one hero. I'd put an s tier. I can't think of anybody out put in D tier Yeah, I mean that they've done a pretty decent job to make sure that every hero is at least viable And if they aren't necessarily being played, they've done the necessary step to kind of tune them back up at least to be relevant, right? right so Damn, I don't know. I mean, I guess we'll see as the conversation ensues, right? right thoughts might change Yeah, I think Seeing I think for me seeing where we are start start putting these heroes and Depending on where we put somebody in C tier, you know Then we get to another hero and I feel if that's person that that here was below that C tier person that might go to D tier Or that might be reason to see a move them up to beat here. Yeah, you never know. Yeah, we might argue for that as well So we'll get there All right, so how we're gonna do this I'm just gonna grab see we don't have Boris in D tier. This this is everybody. I got everybody stacked up right here I'm gonna go alphabetically And I'll pull them up and then just all three of us It'll go it'll go me when do bearded and we'll give just our off-the-top tier and then we'll argue our case For why we think it's that tier How does that sound does that sound good to everybody? Where's your okay? That sound good to you chat? Don't have time to wait for chat waiting 10 seconds for the reply switch problems are it All right, so Boris, I think he is actually B tier now. I think he at one. Okay. I'm not gonna argue my case I think he's B tier now Okay, beauty You're next I'm next. Okay It's not alphabetical works. I would probably I'm going to say based off of your qualifications and category. I'm gonna put the bear into a person. I Agree, I think he's also a He's a very strong Okay, we're gonna keep him a for now my thing with the bear I think at one point in time in false history. He was definitely s-tier like s-tier as fuck But people are starting to learn to play against them people know that like when you get sniffed You just get the fuck away from you wait for it to run out and then you shut him down his biggest asset I think why I would put him B tier is it a Boris pick like I think there's other heroes that could do better in the jungle than Boris but he is Extremely good when the enemy team has like a lot of stunts like if you're up against a Bellica support or a bellica like Mid lane and like a decker support and like a Richter off lane like Boris is amazing because he could just completely Immune all of that CC and still get in on the carry Other than that, I think he's just pretty a pretty average jungler, which I would put him at B tier interesting like my my whole thing as to why I would put him in a is Because there's very few characters in fault That once you have two to three items, they're just online It doesn't matter if that character was behind it doesn't matter if they're ahead Once that two to three care through to you two to three item like standpoint kicks in You could be the worst bear player ever that bear is gonna put in some work That barrel go from zero and six to eight and six real fucking quick And that's why I'm putting him in a because it's I feel like the bear at this point isn't about whether a Good player can make him good It's just to the point where it just lasts long enough in the game and the bear will come online and That already makes it too good of a character in my opinion not even including the shit in the past, right? Right No, I agree. I Do I do I do understand what Goose is saying about him being a I guess we'll call it average jungler compared to the rest But I I do think that his ability outside of the jungle is what makes him a tier because he He can melt through a lot of the characters that we have You know not it's not talking about the tanks but like any of the the squishier characters, you know, he's just going right through them and He gets fed a lot off of that and I think that way what puts him up there in the a tier Okay, and it looks like Chad agrees Most of Chad is saying a tier if not s tier. We got one one vote for s tier from the trigger But everybody else said a tier you to say a tier I will concede that point will put Boris a tier Let's move on to count us Again, I think count us is b tier When do what do you think I? I'll be honest I almost I Think be here's my thing. I I personally hate counters, right? So I'm definitely biased on this one. She's definitely one of those characters that Can start deleting people like crazy like any assassin in general is gonna noob stop, right? so So we established that s is like must have right right or must learn to play against Well kind of both that's right kind of both. I was about to say that's rough because you 100% need to know how to counter counters I guess we should talk about the difficulty too because it's not hard to know how to play against count us, right? You're fucking stun her whenever she slips on to somebody hmm but But that's like saying it's not hard to counter a Kalari With just a ward. There's definitely a lot more skill that comes to the application, right? I'm gonna make the argument. Let's put counters at a because like Boris Count us is the hey two to three items your carry doesn't exist right now, right? Like easy like this fight you'll turn into a 45 in a second Just because the count is this pick your tier and then we'll discuss it and then I can Go ahead. I picked it go go. What'd you say? Hey, hey, I'm saying a I thought you were saying hey, hey, hey No, no, no, no, no, no, I Agree with you. Actually, I'm gonna say a tier as well. I would have said be tier before patch 14 But with the changes patch 14 and I think she got a buff with patch 14 Really brought her up and a tier is she's definitely viable in the jungle now and she's really huge in the jungle So I agree she can melt a carry instantly So until you guys start focusing her and you she also makes you have to You literally have to she makes you have to get an item just to stop her from being able to melt you as an ADC So I think that's huge and I think that's something you need to learn So it's kind of more towards us here, but I think she's a tier Yeah, like with the classification that mangoes put she is borderline. Can we do it? Don't we do in between just put it in between a and s You're putting in between a and s. Yeah, cuz I mean Because you need to know how to counter her and she has the potential to be amazing, right boy She isn't a must-have character No, that's why that's why I'm torn with the s-class occasion because it's not like if you don't have Countess you lose, right? Like if that's the classification, she's not s but needing to know how to counter her She's definitely up there those characters that can like Snowballs so fucking quick. She's up there. That's why I'm kind of torn on this defensive offensive classification as to one letter, you know and And Chat is saying s tier majority of chat saying right here right now. So here's my argument for why I wanted to put her beat here is When she gets going she will absolutely destroy if she doesn't get going She is fucking useless your player down low key She's absolutely fucking useless if she doesn't get going also. She's very dependent on the enemy teams comp If the enemy team has a lot of stuns countless is fucked Countess is absolutely fucked. It doesn't even matter if she gets ahead mid game Once you get late game and it's a team fight as soon as she tries to dive on that on that carry Like she might have been leading him mid game. She might have been leading him early game But late game all of a sudden there's a bot d and she doesn't kill him right away And then she gets fucking stunned by Decker and then she gets knocked up by bellica and she is just done She's just fucking done skis. So I think there's no a lot of hard counters the countess Which is why I wouldn't put her an a tier or definitely wouldn't put her an s tier, but I Would put her a beat here, but you guys are saying a tier chat is saying s tier I'm down. I'm still down for the debate on this one specifically Because I don't disagree. I don't disagree with you But again, the only reason why I would rate her so high is because you need to know how to counter her If not, she'll take the fuck off, right, right? Like if we're considering that aspect like one of the tools one of those characters you got to be careful for I'm gonna rate her higher, but it's just like a make or break situation. Yeah, I wouldn't put your past a tier at that point I think it's she's she's actually pretty easily to counter as well like Like it took me a minute, you know as a not as good player to to learn that right? so But once I learned it I can I can handle going against the countess, right? I I would I would 100% please put me against a countess all day instead of a claw, right? So that's where I'm like What was that what? Word I didn't understand but that's why I think she's she's a tier because the fact that She can be very strong, but she's not s tier because she's not just too strong Yeah, I'll be real. I wouldn't I'd probably lower it and put it at a at best At that point Boop because I'm kind of just kind of torn between the tears you feel me and the classification So I definitely don't think she's a must-have or you lose so I'm let's not put her s Yeah All right, cool. I think that sells up for countless. Let's move on to Decker Uh Decker, I am going to say Decker is definitely a tier if not s I have her middle middle of the road for Decker Okay I'm gonna say I'll give her a solid a I won't explain. Yeah, I got you really I I'm also gonna say a tier. She is the the top-notch Support character right now, but I don't think any support Really is s tier at this moment Okay, you bring up a good point. No, I'll talk about that as we what I'll say is Decker in a very in a good coordinated team. Her cage is absolutely Fantastic people that know how to place that cage. Well will destroy an enemy team hurt. She has a long-range stun She has a slow. She has a speed boost. She has everything that a support wants and needs And she has healing Well, she does have healing, but I mean who does right you got phase and our bash There's the only two that I really have you won't know the reason I bring it up It's because after the changes to some items as well There is definitely a bit of a healing preference going on like nabash kind of made a comeback a Little bit as of late especially when phase came around like a lot of people have been using a nabash to counter a phase Because he had like it even proves that he has even stronger healing early on so in a quick engagement nabash heals will outlast phase So I would put her at a Because of her range above all The amount of rains the amount of poke the amount of harassment that you can apply lane with a dicker is ridiculous You can you can bully without even having to be in the danger zone. I think that alone puts her a tear I just think her ultimate is Just no her ultimate is very strong and it and it works especially in the team fights. It's it's it's a huge team fight You know option and you know you can With her ultimate you can be used Offensively and defensively, you know you can use it for an escape, you know here You guys have you know stay here and you're you're gone, you know and to protect your adc if need be but you can also use it Just to feed your adc, you know You know you're luring the cows to slaughter no offense cows zero seven one But uh You know, so I I agree. I think she's eight here. I just don't think she there's a I don't think It's strong. She's strong enough to put s here um Just because of the ability like she's easily counterable You know when it comes to any team position, so I can't put her s tier in my opinion Okay. Yeah, I think as we said earlier, it's going to be very difficult to put anybody s tier based off of the classification that s tier right now for us is you have to have them or you lose That's that's going to be rough because I think strings managers has done a decent job Lately that's what I'm sure that there's no outliers like that. We'll go have a hard time putting anybody in s tier or anybody in d tier But we can't put them all in fucking a tier guys Well, I'll be real with you But try to balance everybody the same Should have yeah, everybody should have like their differences right like Strengths weaknesses right now We are kind of in a meta that if anybody's falling behind they just get brought right back up to the rest of the group Yeah, there there aren't that many people. They're sticking out in opposite directions, right? Well, let's go to the next one. All right. Let's go to gadget. Um, fuck. I love gadget. She's my absolute absolute favorite mid laner But she doesn't have the burst. I'm gonna put her c tier See I was gonna say b for gadget Um, I I'm also gonna say b for gadget. Uh, she has so much range so much poke And uh, even though they're I think they nerf mat limiter. It's still, you know, huge on her like, um, she's not, you know Good enough to get a tier and but I think she's better than c tier. So I think b tier is where she fits So both of you say b I say c because she is fucking annoying and she is like I said, I love her God I love gadget. She could pull off some crazy shit but Everybody like bellica brings a stun to the game And she still has burst Gideon just has crazy fucking burst Moregesh has crazy fucking burst Countess of play mid has crazy fucking burst. Everybody has this burst that can just delete a hero gadget can't just delete somebody unless People just let her get out a hand and she is like fucking three levels ahead of everybody and as has full build before anybody else In that case. Yeah, she's she's fucking fucking people up with her mind Other than that I think gadget c tier like she's good in certain situations like if you don't need the cc from bellica If you don't need the burst from gideon, then yeah pick gadget um otherwise Kind of who cares You know what? I'm gonna retract mine and go to c because Gadget is that character that you play her because you want to Not because you should there's never a situation where you're like, oh, yeah, I'm gonna use those gadgets slows Yeah, he's gonna be fought. No, like you use it because you want to I don't see anybody that would be like Yeah gadgets a counter pick to Somebody else you feel me Right like she's good as a zoning mate, but you you bring up a great point There is such a burst damage meta, especially with these super loaded items in fall. Yeah, you it's kind of Asinine to go anything that's not burst you're kind of setting yourself back unless you Managed to really really win the laning phase Like it's I don't know. I think I'm gonna put her see I'm gonna change my vote I I still think she's be I mean at us both go see and that's fine And I think well, I guess that's what the rest of the chat says here but like I still think she's be like I get she's not getting out here just like melting kids but like Her ability especially in a teamfight to to do damage and and slow people down and the poke that she has is It it's great like her zoning like you you're literally trying to dodge As an ADC main like you're trying to dodge that damn mind She throws out because it does damage and it you know, you have to build and I you own items to To counter it. So I I still put her up in B tier Well, it looks like uh most of chat is saying either C or Or or or B Windu and I both say uh See so I think we're going to keep gadget in the C tier Yep, we'll see if it changes Yeah, we might swap these around later on And worth reminding people in live chat. We're establishing the cs is a must pick character or you lose And d is a if you pick the character you will lose sort of vibe All right, so Gideon Gideon can be played mostly mid lane. I guess you could Kind of be played off lane a lot of the uh, a lot of the mid laners can be played off lane But Gideon, I think especially doesn't really do all that well off lane, but great mid laner. Um I'm going to say that Gideon is a tier personally What do you say would do Yeah, I I would a hundred percent put a me I don't like that a lot of this list is a Yeah, I know that's why I put a bunch of them B. I thought about this shit Yeah, it's no it's a a tier for sure Um Definitely a tier like he's So strong that pass if he has is insane I think that's what puts him a tier if it's passive warrant a factor or if it were maybe a little bit different He might just be beat here But being able to throw that extra rock is just Disgusting bro. It increases his burst potential tenfold and it's something you need to learn about it's something you need to know about You need to know that he can possibly hit you with a A fucking meteor from the sky and then a rock from his hand and then another media meteor from the sky just like bam bam bam Yeah, no, you if you don't know that if he hits you with two rocks Right either one from the sky one from his head if he hits you with both those he gets a free one instantly like If you don't know that then that's that is very detrimental to you being going up against him Like it's definitely a must-know Yeah, I'm playing and with his ultimate giving him a shielding I've seen that help Gideon's out so much so much. I think that was such a great decision from strange matter To give him some kind of survivability tied to his ultimate And like it's such a better decision than what epic did which was to give him a stun a micro stun on his ultimate Yeah, I mean I definitely feel like getting it for the longest time was one of the favorites in made Like one of the favorite mages overall like from the from the development team I don't know if that's true, but it always felt like he was treated a little bit more special than the rest of them I yeah, he's just too strong. I say a tier all day But it's not make or break like if if you don't have a getting or anything you're gonna lose So that's that's why we're keeping to me um What's chat saying I didn't see what the uh Oh Right now we got b tier 50 percent two votes. So then we got one vote for a one vote for c Okay, we'll keep it made here keep it made here interesting And whoop come on move graystone Graystone, okay Final layers before okay graystone You can play him in the off lane. I've seen a lot of people play him in the jungle fairly successfully Which I don't understand why that works, but somehow it does um I'm gonna put graystone Patch 13. I would I would have put in fucking d tier Um patch 14. I'm gonna put graystone a tier really I I gotta say be I agree when do I'm going b tier? Um I feel like this guy's copying me. Yeah I'll go I'll go next next couple times. We'll show that I'm not copying but like b tier. He's he's not too strong I I agree with with goose what he's saying With with with patch 13 I would have had him, you know c or d tier But with that new was it is a new passive. Is that what it is that they changed it? Um that definitely makes him stronger and it makes him better in lane So I definitely give him a more generous b tier But I don't think he's strong enough to do Uh to do too much as an a tier. So I put him b tier Yeah, I went would be just because of what he brings to the table. You feel me? He has ridiculous jungle clear Which is nice by all means, right? He has good survivability But take that away from a graystone. What else is he brings to the table? Right? He's he's got the disarm. He's a fucking adc killer That's he's great. He's great early game. He's great mid game. He's great late game Um, I I really like graystone now. Like I said before I would have put him d tier anymore I would I would put him a tier. Uh, you guys disagree, but I really like graystone now that um the new passive him getting um You know with with his hits he gets a little more health regen He could just fucking stay in lane for fucking ever forever and even if uh Even if he's uh, he's my he's my favorite pick against a ranged offlaner because you could jump on top of him And cut him down and still get that health regen. You have to pop a health plot or something To to survive all the minion hits But he's the he's about the only good counter to uh to uh to a ranged off lane unless you're very good with richter hugs but I could see that I could see that in solo and like I said, he has the survivability So there's that he's able to kind of just dive in and apply a little bit of pressure and whatnot But like even the argument of the disarm Like early game for example, you're disarming for what a second Most carries don't even do one hit per second usually slower So you got rid of what one basic attack early game Yeah, s2. Yeah, I don't feel the effect. I mean I do There's a case like oh, okay. I got disarmed but like it's not enough to like, oh, shit I just lost this fight because of that. You know, I don't feel that effect through it. Um, Have you guys been playing gravestone? Yeah, I don't know. I feel like me playing against him or me putting against what I'm talking about I feel like He's the fact that he's a melee right His movement potential combined with his q and his basic attack is going to do way more Against a carry or against any squishier or whatever argument the Disarm would actually come into play Then the actual disarm Will I don't know. I'm just saying like phase Alts the carry especially a sparrow. You see the phase sparrow combo a lot and she starts whipping out that ultimate just Blasting through your team you disarm her. She's done She's done for a while I don't know about done bro. Like because here's the thing by the time phase pulls her The disarm or off and she's back into it the old last way longer than the disarm does Yeah, it does but it negates quite a bit of that ultimate damage Well, in the building that case so much of that ultimate damage so to kind of You know for both thoughts here Isn't doing that fall into the very situational ability Which would probably place them even lower than b at that point if you were just talking about that ability Right, but it's not even That ability he's got a lot of other stuff going for him Like I said his passive is amazing. I just I say I think graystone is so much better now I don't disagree, but there's whether when it comes to jungle and solo I still think there's Other picks that would bring more to the table Whether it be on team fights, whether it be just handling their own thing, you know, not including team fights, etc Okay So, uh, what was chat been saying? I know both of you said b. I said a Chat's been all over the place. I have a tier I have a couple b tiers I have an a tier It literally chat's been all over the place with this one. Let's put him in the middle. Let's put him in the middle Yeah, I think one of the rougher parts about this in general too is A lot of people including us are going based off of our own experiences right or against that character, right? And the experiences with every single one of these characters will change depending on what bracket of players you're going up against For sure. So that is worth mentioning here look up All right grim.exe I think grim is highly highly underrated He could be played as a He can't can't be played as an adc or it could be played as an off later I think the thing with grim is people need to learn how to use him. I don't know how to fucking use him I don't ever I don't ever play grim But when I see like a good grim that has practiced with him He is way fucking scarier than any other adc I face Because he could slow you and all this other shit and I'm breaking my own rules by explaining my fucking My fucking picker already, but I'm gonna put him in a tier That's where I'm gonna put all right. I agree with a tier You jump ahead of window here so he knows I'm not copying him. I agree with a tier. All right. Uh, yeah, I'll let that I'll discuss later. Go ahead see Even though he's my probably my the one I have the most fun playing I'm gonna go I would put him at a flat B at best okay Yeah, because you gotta think about it like he's fun. His poke is amazing, right? He I don't think fault is in the state of players and or items To where grim is a necessity that you have to know how to counter because as we just mentioned Barely anybody even knows how to play him properly I had like he's the one that I have the most fun playing But I'll tell you what I know that nine times out of 10 if I'm going up against a grim And I'm and any of the other carries I just go Dg support this is gonna be a quick one Because there's a good chance that they just don't know how to use grim properly including stan switching himself. He's a very complex character I would put him B at best because like we said he has potential to take off But he's not an he's not a proper counter pick for anybody. You don't go. Oh, they got sparrow I'm gonna have to go grim. You know what I mean like nobody go. Hey, that's nobody's go-to as a counter pick Nobody's go-to as a Hey, this is this is how we win the game. Gotta have grim He's he's I think quite frankly. He's kind of like gadget, but he's just Better he's more useful. So that's why I put him B I think I think the reason that they have this situation is me and goose are talking about this off Uh off air before we started going is he is more of a utility Uh character. He's not he doesn't have that known rule as adc You know people use them more in off lane than they do use them as an adc Um, and I think that kind of is a hindrance to him because people don't understand Where he's supposed to go, you know, you play in mid you play him, you know a solo you play him adc And it makes it harder for people to understand what's going on there I think his kit and what he has going for him Makes him stronger and definitely takes them out of the beach here puts him in a tier Because of the way he can be played and you know, I think We can't base this off of the player base. We have now, you know, we Us three is understanding how this character can be played not saying that we're good with him But in understanding how we can be played in the skill that it takes to play him is different And I think that puts him that that alone this, you know, you put A skill behind him and you learn that character Makes him huge and that put that's why I put him in a tier Well, we have to take into consideration that if the character Is much more difficult to learn Right like yeah, he's gonna have maybe a higher ceiling so to speak But if he's that much more difficult to learn That's going to affect the rating of how much how the character overall performs You feel me like okay, so I can give grim to a top point zero zero one percent player And they're gonna do fucking amazing with him if they're a grim main, right? But if the other 99 percent of grim players Are end up being C tier D tier because he's a little too complex For the average majority that's going to affect how I judge a character Do you know what I'm saying? Mm-hmm But we're not judging the player base we're judging the character themselves Right and if that character has that potential of being that good that we that's where we we got to put them in that situation like that's why Yeah, but uh the ease of use of a character Also comes down to it Like we're not making a list of tier list if only massive players were using it If that's the case then gray stones definitely s tier and that argument I mean w key and fucking go like that's I mean gray stones the easiest character to use in this game But that's why it is lower than you guys because he brings only so much to the table Like he w can go yes, I'm taking that back during the consideration But as far as cc as far as in team fights, etc Can he provide the same as others? Yes, and and I bring the same argument here to grim Can grim provide the same in a team fight that a sparrow with her ultimate can Or let's say a murdoch with a cross ultimate snipe Twin blasts with his ultimate and all and all the extra shots that he's throwing out Will a grim bring the same to the table whether it be in laning phase or in a team fight I think grim can bring more because he can peel for himself He can peel for others. He's got his shield that will counter Him getting pulled out of position by something or getting stunned I'm more disalted. I can't play grim. Well, but People that can play grim. Well, he's fucking amazing He's fun. Like I said, he's literally my favorite carry to play if I just want to have fun Yeah, legit, but I still wouldn't rate him higher than it be personally But I can be in the Minority chat said a I said a Beard said a chat's chat saying s&a. Yeah, that's for sure. He's hi. Yeah hi grucks Now grucks is normally played jungle, but he can also be played off lane fairly well Uh, I think grucks is really good. But again I'm thinking ahead here, man. I'm gonna put in b tier because we can't put everybody in a tier And I'll Go ahead go ahead. I uh Grucks is b tier as well. Um, I want to put him a tier, but I'm gonna put him b tier See, I would rate grucks higher than graystone Like as far as which jungler to pick which solo laner to pick I I think grucks brings way more to the table. So I I would say higher than graystone. So I'm gonna go. Hey There's no way I'm gonna put a grucks below graystone. No way What did you put about bearded? I put him as b tier as well. Um, I I think he's just easily countered Uh, I love playing as him. He's a great character. He's one of my favorite, you know off-laners to go as but like He he's just so easily countered. The only time I actually do good with him is when we play our hide and seek Mode on customs, you know, that's that's about it other than that I can't do well with the guy and I'm not basically just off with me But you know just seeing other people play him like he can be easily countered off lane. So Um, yeah, he's he fucking sucks off lane. Um, I was just kind of kidding about b tier He was one of the few that I would actually put his s tier for real. Um Like make or break like if you don't have them, you're kind of throwing I think he's One of the best junglers He brings two forms of cc. He brings cc immunity. He brings great damage. He brings damage over time Grox has everything you want. He's got everything you want in a jungler. He has fast clear times He's just fucking awesome. I love grox. I've been been playing a lot of grox lately. Maybe that's Feeding into my decision. But uh, yeah, I absolutely love grox He's got a dash that can be used as an engage or an escape He's got a pull that could pull he's He's got multiple teams the easiest ability to dodge It is very easy to dodge. Yeah his pull. Why do they have a timer on his pull? Because there's no point the only time to put them to go max pull is when you're going against the jungle minions that don't Fucking move other than that. You can't do max pull Or lane minions because you know, they're coming to you. So you just time it right like okay max I don't know because a good a good grox is gonna do his pull At a proper moment like you feel me like if you're face-to-face with the enemy And you're trying to pull them They're more than likely gonna dodge it like a good grox is gonna sit there and be like step forward smack No, even though they're running away, even they don't see you like you literally could be standing there just laning And all of a sudden you just have this orange cone going under you You know, oh, shit. I gotta move because you see there's an indicator like hey He's getting there's a grucks behind me get ready to pull me. I gotta move because there's no you don't do max time Like there's it's way too long of a Of a ability you need that that needs to be sped up for grucks in my opinion Chat I think people including myself just need to get better with that pull because you can reactivate at any time You don't have to max it out And the pull isn't for damage. It's for cc. It's for pulling people back in like it is But like you do more damage than you max it out and it's coming out. It's coming out Maybe it's not max, but you see them starting to bob and weave. That's when you hit it. That's when you release and grab them Yeah, the the pull is definitely more utility so you can just land another basic and land that right click Because you're basically in your right click There is no point of having a max on there is I I know. Yeah, that's what I use it for I don't use it to max it out. That's my point though Is there's no point of having a mid max and having more damage at max because you've that like never happens Like I said, it's only good for minions in any situation You're not going to get that max benefit out of it Oh, I just know I would I'm not going to put a grutz below the gravestone if anything at I'd put them Up there with gravestone if you if we want to argue it's different Like grucks is definitely below gravestone for off lane, but I think he's way above him for jungle See and then so let me ask them because When you're talking about for jungle a lot of people are considering the fact that gravestones jungle clear Is insane and now his passive his sustainability in the jungle is is insane as well So the argument could be made even though the gravestone doesn't bring as much to the table He can level up faster and everybody knows in fault Levels make the difference your one level. We were one or two levels above everybody above the enemy jungler That's a gg no matter what you're building So I so I did you just argue for gray to be above grucks No, no, I'm saying a little bit. Yeah, I want to understand what you're considering in jungle Because I would like again, I would put grucks at Or above the gravestone just purely based off of the cc purely based off of what they bring to a team fight well Chat said b What are you guys saying because I'm I'm saying b. I I still don't feel I guess yes, he's got cc, but his cc is easily dodged in my opinion. Okay. How about this window? Let's move graystone down to b Will that make you feel better about it? That's gonna make chat angry as shit, but it makes me feel Ah This video is I know I think the major issue is that too many of these characters based off of our qualifications can be considered a You know what i'm saying Yeah Based off of our qualifications The s tier is make or break. You either have the character or you lose No character really fills into them I think based off of what we've said considering the balance and that they've done on purpose like intentional I think most of these characters Are literally going to fall into a unless we just hell in it. Hey, you got me. Yeah, right I well, I mean we'll rearrange these after we're done. I think s tier calari s tier d tier Fucking terrible terrible hero s tier a hater. So she gets d tier She I I hate her too. I literally hate her but she's sorry. No for real though. I think she's Okay, like I gotta stop looking at the a tier because I've already thought through these a little bit I think calari is b tier because I think she is quite dependent on Your team and the enemy team Like because a lot of times you want your jungler to be a little tanky tank calari is a thing and it's really fucking good Um, but you don't If the enemy team has built again a lot of cc then calari is going to get shut down pretty hard So i'm gonna say she's b tier She's this is all based off of current meta, right? current meta I'm gonna go with I'll I'll be real. I at best I'm gonna say b Because I like I Well, because I'm considering both right like a good calari will tear the shit up out of that lobby Right, but a good calari is also contingent on the fact that the enemy team doesn't know how to ward properly She's a ward. She's a pub. Ward is not gonna stop that all A ward does not stop that all she's on top of you and you're dead I understand but okay, go ahead The ult can be stopped though Like she can ult to a rifter. He can fucking silence at the right time and her ult does doesn't do shit Decker can stun bomb at the right time. Her ult doesn't do shit You can push as a murdoch technically as she ults to you at the perfect timing Yep, if you got the perfect timing, which is hard to pull off But you can completely negate calari's ultimate I'm saying even if she gets to you, right? Let's say she is able to output the damage. Let's say she does kill the carry, right? Once she's there if she cannot get away with invisibility Now that's a squishy nine times out of ten at least that's going to be a squishy calari That's now in the fight if she can't get away with invisibility. She's gone No, but here's a team jump. Here's the problem most No, most of the games Most of the games that I see a calari go off the only person running rad pulse is the jungler because it's recommended But you know what I'm saying like where'd she go? I heard her every time I see a calari pop off People aren't running sentry wards people aren't running rad pulse the vision system needs to rework regardless We all know this but at the end of the day s tier in a good I'm talking about you get good players in there Calari's gonna struggle people know how to counter. Yeah People know how to counter her she calari's in the same boat as countess. I think Like if she gets ahead she's fucking unstoppable s tier you can't do shit about her Countess doesn't have invisibility if she gets a if she gets a lie has a visibility if calari gets just a little bit behind Fucking trash like if she can't get A few kills up front. She's she fucking sucks. Well, isn't that what we established for countess though? Yeah, that's why I said she's right there with countess, which I put count as a b tier But you guys wanted you guys want to put her today? Well, I mean we've discussed a lot since then I'm down for lowering countess change my mind. I hate her too I Think countess stays a day and I think calari goes to s because the car countess doesn't have the invisibility So you think right now if a team has a calari and the other team doesn't the team of the calari's I can't stun an invisible person. I can't stun a ghost. I literally have no clue where they're at. I can't stun Countess, I know exactly where she's at. I know where she's gonna be her shadow slip. Guess what? There's a little fucking thing that looks just like her. You know, she's going right back to that point I don't know where calari is going to be All's you hear is pop pop because she jumped twice and that's it. I have no clue where she's at Okay, unless unless all five people are running rad pulls Hold on. So that's it. What I'll be honest with you if you're going against a calari. I yeah Quite frankly, you should have two at least two or three people running rad pulls. Yeah For real, yeah, especially like as a carry as soon as there's a calari on the other team Rad pulls support. You better go fucking ward. I got rad pulls I got rad pulls. You want me to ward bet? I'll put a sentry on the south. You're welcome The the s and calari's tear stands for shit. This bitch just two shot me in 0.6 seconds exactly Yeah, she puts off so much fucking damage if she gets ahead if she's allowed to If she's allowed to another hero that says give me another hero that anybody says, hey, how do I How do I defend against this hero and their their argument is don't let them get fed every hero No, no, it's not count. It's the only one I can name any any character that does damage and burst and somebody's been like, what? They're so strong. How do I stop that? Don't let her get fed. What do you mean? How do you stop a more guess you can't know you already fed fed That's the whole point of getting fed everybody should be that way But those are the only two people like how do I defend against us? You don't let them get fed. Oh, okay. That's it. That's all I that's your only argument of how I defend against this character Don't let him know. Well, first of all anybody that says that's the only argument is just wrong How do you how do I stop this? You don't radicals you ban a sentry ward Get vision or if you're really struggling that much I mean everybody in chat. You're the only two that said this everybody in chat saying s tier You are the only two that argued against it and say that she's not s tier Everybody's saying s tier. Did you do a poll? They did have a poll, but I'm literally just watching chat. Everybody's saying s tier Well, sorry, honey, honey being the negative guy. That's because it's because clary. Oh my god See clary like yeah, sorry. I'm gonna say pull is 80 s tier 80% but again, here's my problem. Here's my problem. You we establish s tier is you either make or break it Uh, we also establish that s tier is must you easy to pick this hero or at least learn them because you Need to learn how to face them Yeah, but I guess like part of that is so you're gonna play is the You're gonna play certain s tier because of the half the second half Yeah, you need to learn how do you play against that? You don't know what you're doing Like you literally this girl can just kill you in 0.6 seconds If she's way ahead number brother if she's way ahead She can yeah, and it's and I've faced that as a sport where Kalari kills my carry before I could do anything about her But I've also played jungle where I just fucking snuffed kalari early And she just didn't do shit for the rest of the game Like it's feast or famine with kalari. She's either s tier Or she's fucking d tier, which is why I put her at b tier Because she's she's kind of in the middle if you let if you let her fucking Do what the fuck she wants then yeah She's going to be s tier, but you can shut her down pretty quick If a character is and we might be have to relook at this a tier right of a character's contingency Of whether the s tier or not is whether they're fed or not That's shouldn't be a reason why they're s tier right because everybody can can be in the lead if they're fed or not I'm talking about the fact that she literally Is an oppressive hero like anytime I go against the kalari. I'm like fuck here. We go again Like every time I literally I said we'll watch any of my vans Anytime we go get to kalari like this is the one hero. I want strange matters to take out of the game I can't stand this hero If wait, is this yeah, is the trigger still in here because if it's the trigger is kalari that I'll put it in The trigger I want to get the trigger a few times. I've seen stranger in there has killed it gosh Like hey, there's the trigger because because she changes the way that you play like you feel me like If you for example, there's a bear jungle, you're not necessarily going to change how you play duel, right? But because she changes so much I think a but I'm again, I'm not going to put her ass because It's not make or break. It's not like hey, you have a kalari you insta wing. I'm not going to put her ass Helen Keller's kalari is b tier anything higher is s. I love it. Thank you. All right. I'll put her at a I'll put her at high. I'll put her in the middle. I'll put her in the middle between a and s Just because of everybody else's thoughts and that's why I brought more people in because I'm not a fucking expert I don't know god damn everything So According to the chat according to bearded I'll put her between a and s she's midway Somebody is that kinetics just said in chat. No characters insta wing though and that's like exactly. That's why like s tier is like not filled with anybody Okay, chi chi mera At one point in time. I would put I would have put him at d tier like fucking straight up Now I'm going to put him in between A and s chi is really good right now chi is really good. Um, I don't know if I put him a and s I I definitely want to put him a tier that uh, uh, the new items that we got they really help him out a lot. Um, and his, uh, The the stacking his stacks, uh, are just really strong and it's so hard to to battle up against a good quay a good karmira So, uh, yeah, I put him a tier I don't think chi is better than grucks or or uh, grace on I would put um right there and be with them or Even it's had a bit lower because I I really do believe a grace on our grucks provide more value than a chimera Chimera is just easy mode because he gets a farm, right? like they essentially Give us a different version of an easy mode jungler with a grace on rework But as far as like what he can actually provide besides w keying I'm not I'm not reading him any higher than it be He's lucky. He's getting a b for me My only reason for putting chi so high is because of uh The demon soul sword is that what it's called demon sword That shit makes him fucking insane But yeah, but I mean a cut kind of gets shut down easy by by cc So he is pretty situational like again if the enemy team has a lot of cc. He kind of gets shut down but Yeah, I don't know I say it best me um You know since he doesn't really have much cc He's got what what is at the queue that kind of like stops people going from there like kind of pushes people Yes, ambasoulos and his r silences which his r is Very powerful which people don't seem to understand but Yeah, I'll uh I'll concede and and I'll agree with you guys at b tier. Um Because I can't his stacks can't be the only reason that he's not agreeing with me, but Well, you're right. You're right. I'm not so yeah Yeah, I just I'm not gonna rate him higher than a grace one because I right now I think grace one is just a better chimera. Okay personally, okay All right, we'll put we'll put kai at b tier That's not we got you know You know what kind of messes with me with this list too just kind of throwing it out there before we go to the next one I kind of wish that The characters would have been like let's go through them the mages and then let's go through the carries Because I feel like we're just going back and be like, hey, can we can we move for that guy from b? I think we're gonna rearrange this list at the end, but uh, yeah, I just did an alphabetical order to be As fair as possible Now we got quang Quang can be can't be played in the jungle can be played in the off lane. I think he is Very underrated. I think people just don't know how to play quang um He's very hard to play. I mean, I'm very hard to play. I think he's a tier maybe even Close to s tier. He's he's very very fucking good But people just don't play him and I don't understand what I don't play him because I'm not I suck at him, but Whatever Quang's not getting higher than a c for me a c from windew. What do you got bearded? quang, um There was a time that quang was definitely between a and b for sure. Um, He was small. He's pretty much s tier back in the day. Um, I Look at the people on the board. Who who who is he better than I got a pistol going on one on one Um, like that's kind of what I'm going now that we have some sort of baselines. You feel me right quang I I think quang can definitely with his his abilities and what he's got going for him and a cc I think he can definitely be better than uh, uh, kai mirror And even a gravestone. I think he can be better than I think he's more equal I think now with everything what's going on the gravestone. I think he's more on even level So I'll go beat here with quang Okay, interesting as I actually somebody in chat just, uh, mentioned this, uh, Yuvni, I think you pronounce that they're mentioning that quangs probably be if you build damage See if you build tank Yeah, I can see that He's not much of a tanker. You have to go Damage with him, uh, tank, uh, quang because you gotta get to get to get that energy damage out there He can survive and all back to lane. What do you do? I at best I'll concede like somewhere in between b and c But I just don't think that as far as scaling goes as far as Putting items on him and he's just amazing, right? I don't necessarily see him beating crocs gravestone or chimera Whether it be in a 1v1 on solo or whether it be jungling Like I see quang and it's like yo That quang's gonna have a rough time. He's either gonna be amazing Or He's gonna be trash. You feel me like I That's hit and miss and it's not even because of the character because the character's abilities I feel like they just fall short because he's been Kind of borderline neglected like all this attention has been towards these other characters getting constantly rework When's the last time you even read about a quang adjustment? Uh I don't know. I really I don't pay that much attention to the guy because I'm really bad at him. So Uh, I literally just started playing on stream last night. I played him against a i matches a i uh Bots or whatever because I was trying to understand Because that's why I want to put him a beat here because I'll go up against a quang And I don't understand How they're surviving like where's the lifesteal coming in with this? You know like what's going on like I'm literally trying to understand what they're doing because I don't get it so I was playing on last night and Thanks to help with uh sock and brendren a little more understandable uh with what's going on I got pretty decent with them. I can say I but uh He's fun Quang is definitely fun and now that you learn to play him. Yeah, like it's not bad but um I think the the survivability like his lifesteal that he's got you know that little passive that he gets Say he gets lifesteal and and the fact that he does a lot of energy damage which brings Versatility into the solo lane. I think that's why I kind of want to keep him up a beat here But uh chat has voted and voted c-tier as well So really they put quang a c-tier. They did him voiceover Lamel He said quang Yeah, I I think uh, I think I'd probably put it like I see You're not wrong like like again, he could put him at juke But I I really do think behind the other ones. He's just gonna fall in short Lieutenant busty melaka Um, she's one of the few that I'm gonna put at s-tier Really Really good. I feel like you're joking this time now like no Like you weren't like you put like you were joking with uh grucks or whatever um What do you got? I'm thinking go ahead and say what you got. I gotta look at thinking about her. She's a tough one I probably put her Like low a You know what i'm saying Even that a lot of thought Yeah, I'm gonna try to think she's got like great wave clear And uh, she does great burst damage. Um She's definitely a tier. I just don't know if I want to do like s-a or a Or just a she's she's strong. Um I'll go a I'm going a tier out of her. She's she's a strong She's got some good abilities, but like I think uh if her knock up wasn't so easy to uh Avoid I guess the world before I think that kind of makes her kind of Almost not useless, but just kind of takes a lot from her If she's not able to get that that knock up bomb combo, you know that does a lot for her Okay Well, I think it's just important to remember like the versatility that she provides right exactly Like the reason why Gideon's an a is not because he has that a burst of damage But like hey, you're in a Gideon ultimate. You're now slowed in there. You get hit by a rock You're kind of slowed. You feel me? It's not like It's not like, you know, for example gadget that it's a kind of just very one-dimensional She has the knock up She's got her ultimate that increases damage based off missing mana. So she has that burst in there as well as her bomb Right and then she has her drone to her in the middle of a team fight her drone can get some decent hits It on the entire enemy team without them realizing it Yeah, especially with a drone that you can't just sit there and smack away. You got to wait for the timer That drone will put in some fucking work in a team fight I think the drone though is just more, I mean it does do I'm not saying it doesn't do damage But I think the drone is more like that like we talked about Boris and the sniff like you just kind of like Once you see like I step back you just wait a minute and then you don't you're going to the team fight or whatever like you don't Yeah, but a good bellica isn't going to put the drone before Yeah, but a good bellica isn't going to put the drone before a team fight as soon as the fight initiates We can't we can't base this I mean if we're going to base this off of a good bellica Then we've got to put grim we got to put kalari an s here then because a good kalari is going to You know do what everything you know all those so we can't just base everything off a good bellica Okay, so let's so let's meet in the middle. Let's meet in the middle the average bellica Will probably play that drone better Than the average grim for example, we'll we'll use his kid. That's true So I like we can't place a bellica under a grim no offense Her e is kind of fucking useless like it's nice in some fights But I mean, it's kind of fucking useless The only the only good use for it is the trick people into think thinking that it's still that it's still a drains mana And then they back away from it. Yeah, that's what I'm saying Brenda brought up a great point in the chat. It's amazing for popping those bubbles Like on the on those items that are out there That now because now that we have two of them out there Even as far as utility getting rid of those bubbles And then it doesn't it doesn't just get rid of the bubble. They have to use an ability, don't they? Well, yeah, but that's what I'm saying like they use an ability and they pot They get rid of the bubble now you go in for your full burst damage Right. Okay. I'm just saying it's it I don't know Maybe I'm just the one that I see a fucking bellica drone Circle on the ground. I'm just like, all right. I don't use my fucking I don't use my abilities. I'm just sitting there as an adc just using my fucking basic attacks I was like because that's my strength anyways, but like yeah, exactly. I see it. I say I avoid it like, all right I got I you know, it's it's so easy to avoid you just don't use an ability at that time now And now it's different if you're you know, if you're an ability based I was about to say that's easy to say that as a carry mate. It right it is The rest of the lobby sees that that drone and they're like fuck Do I take that little bit of extra damage and continue to fight? Do I back out disengage and then continue the fight? It's easy to say that as a carry because we just hold left click and keep going. I've also never really seen her drone Do that much damage to me when it has done damage I've not seen it like oh my gosh look look I better not do that again. I've never felt that way with their drone. Yeah, but here's the thing about her drone You don't need her drone Bellica can be played support. She could play be played mid lane. She could be played off lane I've seen bellica played carry with mages crossbow She she's very flexible. She has burst damage. She brings cc to the party which can never be underestimated And she's just fucking amazing like I think bellica is like the absolute top tier best mid laner right now Hmm, I don't know about that. I feel like I disagree. I I feel like I mean, she's great. I she's she's like I have probably have my as the mid laner. I have the most Games with her but I was because I was when I first started playing I was taking her in solo lane um And but I don't know Yeah, I I agree with chat. I think it is better than bellica. Gids passive is just makes me too strong Yeah, it gets passives. It makes them too strong like That's it's insane and it's it's so much easier to hit Gids rocks than it is to hit bellica's one Knock up It's not that hard to hit her knock up. I think it is important to mention also It is so easy to it does go through walls, but it's so easy to dodge I think it is important to mention though getting getting has the mobility when bellica doesn't That is also worth pointing out there when you compare the two. Yeah, you have to buy the blink for bellica um I I just I don't I her like I said you She's in my opinion in the tier of the game that I play bellica is dependent on the knock up Bomb combo that she has If she misses that she doesn't she's not she's not doing too much damage Unless you're unless you are low a manna then her ultimate can get you there But if you're the same argument can be made for gideon Huh, if the same argument could be made for gideon or any of the casters If they miss their abilities, they're they're screwed, you know, no, that's the she's not like you're not missing You she needs the knock up to be able to land that the other her bomb in a set right to be able to No You know how many times you like They've we've all gotten hit by a bomb that chunked you even though the knock up didn't happen And then three to four seconds later here comes another fucking bomb and it killed me anyway I'm not saying it's impossible, but I'm saying that's it's more like that's the That is the go-to for for all bellicas It is so easy to to It's easy not so easy. It's easier To hit a gideon rock That it is to hit a telep like a telepath Fucking here you go. I'm gonna. I'm literally gonna. You know, it's coming every time You know a knock up's coming and you only have to stray left to right Walking up to you with her hand up in the air. Yeah It's so easy to to avoid Just the the motion itself even if even if she has an instacast she she's got to pull her arm up And she's got to slam it down. Yeah, but like that's not not even pulling up by holding it up the whole time And empty said that the chat said a tier I yeah, I I would agree with a tier. I would just definitely say I wouldn't necessarily place her Above the gideon but pretty comparable Okay I so I still rather have a good gideon than a good bellicom my team. I think she's higher but We'll keep her tonight Let's move on to more cash often played in off lane sometimes played in mid lane um pretty powerful hero If she gets ahead, um I think mori is a pretty solid a tier personally This is yeah, she's definitely a tier. It's definitely it sucks. I get it. I literally get it Let's just game is it it's I think she's a tier. I literally she's a very strong character like and you know her fucking um That little her mark and then that swarm that she's got and then it's just instant like you're just dead because How much she uh, she can burst you down with her abilities and then her ultimate just is instant kill I'm gonna go be Because Even though she's easy mode mage, right and she has crazy damage output There's no real utility out of her case. She's she's low key like a mage another mage assassin in a way, right? But at least countess is gonna stun somebody in the middle of her ult. You know what I mean At least countess has that Slipperyness of teleporting back and forth and everything like my homegirls over there is like, uh It's sticky situation. Let me just She's got that uh Immune ability or whatever that you can run through and the the cc doesn't affect her at that time That's that that is still not better than a giddy in teleport Or I'm not getting like yeah, but I'm she's a mage. I'm comparing her to other mages Like it's especially the countess of the countess slip. I'm saying that it's like it's very similar to that Yeah, she's she's an easy mode hero So maybe like between b and a but I Just as far as what she brings to the table. Yeah, it's the slows that don't affect her but like um Cc effects are hard cc hard cc will affect her but soft cc. I don't think does Oh, then then hard. Well I'm gonna put her a beat here because most of the chat is saying b Most of you guys are saying b I said a but I could definitely swing towards b with morguech Um, a little in fact, she was the very first honest hero review a fucking that's what spawned all of them was How bullshit I believe it and she looks like it is the paragon Oh, she it's just too easy to do that much more damage with her is the is the problem That's why she might be rated so highly by some people Because she literally is auto lock on for half the time Right. Yeah, boy as far as but as far as What she brings to the team? Yeah, I still rather have a gideon teleport that the team can go through or A gideon ultimate instead of a morial or a bellica knock up. Yeah Oh murdoch Fucking murdoch. I know you guys gonna be crazy about murdoch, but uh Dude murdoch. I think it's fucking c tier right now He is like the worst of the fucking 80s right now Yeah I'll be really I love murdoch I'm gonna put him at b unless we're talking jungle Jungle murdoch is jungle murdoch way up here Um, I can't jungle murdoch is insane. What the why is that? Let me see it. I don't know like it's The cross cross map. Oh is definitely still Extremely valuable, right? Right boy, I Considering the way that the meta is right now and everything I I wouldn't play some higher than a than a b personally I'll explain why in a second after feared it says Uh, I'm biased, uh, but I'm still not gonna put them There I I say he's a high b Just because of he is he's strong. He he is the Uh, we've all voted right so yeah, um, he's the uh, he's got the highest Health point as a as an adc. He's got the highest shield or armor as an adc And uh, his his his buck shot ability of the armor shred and that his ultimate being, you know, global I think he is as a high b tier I think empty nailed it by the way before you before you go into a window So I I was just gonna say The only reason I would put murdoch at b is because In order to do a good amount of damage in a teamfight You have to walk in way closer than any other carry Yeah, yeah, no, you definitely with his dangerous in a game of that melee's run way faster than you So I walked up to land the shotgun now. I can't back up in time You feel me? So you it's really it it is Hella fulcrum it on that but again his ultimate in the middle of a teamfight I hope to god you're not taking any in the middle of a teamfight. You know what I mean Oh I've got the bear's dick off point blink. I got a clip with you later Like his ultimate is amazing cross map, right providing just a little bit of damage cross map or stealing kills or whatnot boy Just purely based off of the positioning that you have to do as a murdoch to land his cue I think that lands him at a disadvantage Compared to the other carries. I mean it does land a disadvantage, but the fact that he's able He's the only adc that can feed All over the map with that ultimate is is huge and you want your adc to be fed So you're able to like not only is your support you got to support victor pulling, you know, here you go feed eat off of this You also got your you know off lane You know quang that's getting you know feeding you over there as well And you got your mid lane giddy and feeding you in mid lane like just loading you up, you know, and it's huge I think that that's you know enough to put them you know high b tier I'm thinking I'm taking a murdoch in comparison to the other adcs right now He doesn't benefit well from rogue not nearly as much as the other adcs He doesn't benefit as well As the other adcs from a phase support um So if we're just talking adcs, he's fucking low. He's fucking low as an adc but but He's a pretty goddamn good off later in a really good jungler like he just comes out of fucking nowhere with a Fucking amazing amount of damage And he fucking throws down his trap and knocks people into it. He's kind of crazy as a jungler, which I kind of don't understand it But it fucking works It fucking works So we lose bruh, but chat is bringing up a great point if you do basic attack Do your q to shotgun and then do another basic attack. It will proc rogue because you're auto-canceling. Yeah, that's true So I mean it it works, but Yeah, I think it just really comes down to like for me still is just the positioning as far as Can the other carries proc rogue for example at a safer distance That's what I was about to say like he has to run into proc rogue Whereas twin blasts can fucking proc it from forever away right I hate to say it probably my most played carry, but I I'm still sticking. I mean like maybe I will tell you he's below. He's not the highest tier adc. I just still think he's In between a and b. I think he's right there where where he was put him. I think that's where he's at I do think the other adc's are very close to it. Ross. Thank you so much for that raid, brother I'm doing how was your games? Yeah So that's where we're putting Murdoch. All right Muriel I think another highly underrated hero I'm going to put muriel A well played muriel at a tier which I don't know if we want to consider that or not But whatever I'm putting it at a tier to start out with Muriel strong. I I agree. I think she's a tier as well. Those shields are amazing But currently compared to nard bash compared to phase You know what I'm saying compared. I mean rictor is hidden miss. We'll get to that one. Um No, he literally missed the pull. I can't with you, man I'd probably I'd probably put put muriel Like that a slash b or murdoch's at because I still would rather have a decker over a muriel person Yeah, I can see that. That's a good Uh, I mean she's she's strong. She those shields are very strong. Um, and she's got the speed um And she's got the the root um I That's why I I think she's uh, you know a or or I mean I'm okay with dropping an extra murroc there, but like She's very close I can get behind that I'm gonna say you still feel like a goose. I can get behind that. I I think when she's played well, she has so much effect Like she has the global presence and those shields Do way more than they should like Holy fuck they can save some people like a really well played muriel is fucking amazing. You just don't see a lot of them You just don't see a lot of them But and that all that all she has is she's able to to save teammates across maps She's not only is the support for the adc She can support the whole team, you know, and that's that's huge as well I think we'll keep her between a and b jeer. I think that's good I Agree, I don't think that's a bad spot for her big daddy bash Um used to be fucking s tier, but Right, he went from s tier to d tier some of the nerfs they've given him Um, yeah, they've they've done some hard. Yeah, like I I would say b tier for nar bash When do what do you think? Yeah, um, I'll keep I'll keep them at b. I'll tell you why in a second Muriel got voted for d tier out of the people who actually voted. That's great shit really. Yeah I'm gonna go against chattel in this one. I'm gonna keep her I'm going against chat as well Nar bash, um With the slight changes that just happened. I I think he's B tier. Yeah, I would say b tier. Uh, I would say more b c like closer to c but like still be Damn, um Yeah, he's just he It's it's a tough. I don't know. It's tough to have him in there his because it's still That the the nerf that he got to the cooldown on his heels is just it's Strong that's a it's a huge nerf that he had Well, like like I've said always with nar bash is his heel is his least effective ability Like everything else is more effective than right I mean that the heel would have been that heel and that schreistone combination was was the reason he got the nerf to the heel You know that that he was able to grow as a support. So That proc was huge, but now he's not like that probably you're not able to proc it like that So it really just kind of makes it where you can't you're not getting the gold income that you need to be getting Can we could we at least move them up a little bit? Like at the top of me just a little bit because here's my issue with him like I still love nar bash. His kid's amazing, right? His kid provides a lot of utility My biggest issue with nar bash is The nerf said he's gotten compared to me right there his size. You feel me like Nar bash is the only Like oddball support that you might want to throw in there unless you're running a range carry But a range carry is so fucking strong Especially when you have Decker with those nukes of bombs that she throws you got a myrile that can stack her basic attacks and land roots and stuff And then you got a nar bash that Is just the thunk and if that thunk is missing you better hope movement speed and and the heels make the difference you know what i'm saying like it's I like him a ton Yeah, so I still I still rather have a decker than a nar bash Yep, I think he's really good right now because nar bash is I mean because phase is so much She's picked so much right now And he's such a great counter to phase Such a great counter to phase That's a great point because phase doesn't inherently have too much to stop him except just Taking the link off and putting it on the nar bash to stun him That's why he's such a great counter, but it's if it's if anybody else besides phase I still rather have one of the other ones quite frankly What why is why do you guys say nar bash is? A counter to a phase what what it makes him the counter to phase Okay, I don't know if this was intended or not, but she can strafe just as fast As just normal whenever she's channeling her e which makes her very hard to hit with any kind of slow-moving stun like uh Decker's ball isn't that slow-moving Fucking Richter's Pull is extremely slow. It's very hard to hit phase whenever she's channeling that e Because she just strafe's like a motherfucker. I don't think that's intended I think she's supposed to be slowed while she's slafing strafing just like moving normally, but Nar bash is thunk very fast. You can just She's done with that strafe She's usually out of position if she's being very aggressive and your carry could follow up I mean it can't decker do the same thing though Yeah, boy. Like like I just said her stun ball is a little slower than a thunk I will say though The likeness of a nar bash getting bullied out of lane compared to A decker getting bullied out of lane Is substantial in my opinion Especially if you're going bangle nar bash, you know what I mean, right? Like your bangle nar bash every time you go and get a last hit on a minion You're gonna get chunks. So then you have to you're putting yourself out there It's the same thing when the fight starts you're out of mana Like it's it's good. Like I still love nar bash like yo throw a nar bash support bet will have a blast But I just don't know if I'd pick him if I bomb support I'm not picking our bash unless we're just chilling if you're nar bash and you go bangle. Is that nar bangle? I hate him I hate him All right So chat is kind of split on this quite a bit. Yeah chat had five votes for a tier and four votes for c tier So in the poll that we had Just from our discussion and chat We'll drop him down to actual b instead of high b mid b mid b He's mid b All right phase a fucking hater a fucking hater Always have always will Uh She's aggressive if she if you play her aggressive, she's so strong in lane. I'm putting her a b tier I wonder what he's saying What's here Man, I'm gonna be real with you I I hate it like I gotta I would say a b I would say a b. Okay. I almost want to say she's a tier just because she's so new and We still have to learn how to counter her Hey, what's going on with that? If she still did as much fucking damage as she did before Right, yeah, the line would have been s. You feel me? Yeah, she was she was pretty strong like for her nerves She definitely did get really strong. Um, but I still think she has You know the her ability her kit is is really strong and I think that's where she falls into a tier because You know you have the ability you're giving them the health regen you're giving them manner regen You're able to pull them into a fight. Uh, you know for being aggressive You have the ability to pull them out of a fight to save them. Um You uh That blind that blind being blinded in this game right now It it literally It even it doesn't mean for whatever reason. I mean at any time you get blinded It doesn't matter if it's a team fight or if it's just like a Dueling fight that blind just and it makes it hard for you to land those shots and As an adc you need to land those shots that it's crazy So I just I think she's strong. I think she has the ability of being a tier. That's what I want to put her there Hmm See you're crossing for the follow. I think she's extremely easy to learn to play against You just fucking kill her before you kill the adc It's it's usually that easy and like if you don't want to get blinded just fucking stay away from her Like it's not that hard if you're if your support goes in and stuns her Fucking light her up. So let's compare it to our highest rated support, right? Decker has a slow. Does she have a slow? Yes. Yeah the beam. Yeah decker has a stun. Does she have a stun? Yes, yes Decker has a cage She has An enhancement ability, right? So I guess you could say those two kind of counter themselves out in different ways But she doesn't have a speed boost Decker has a speed boost She could throw you forward That's true. She she can pull you so there is some sort of movement in there But then on top of that She also heals you while she's linked to you while casting all those abilities and a blind So theoretically, I mean, yeah, she she can be countered target her first. I I get that But as far as what their kit brings to the table She's kind of loaded up quite frankly And chat even said that she does have a speed boost with her r. Yeah, that's true. I don't even think of that so I just think she's she's strong and like, yeah, that's I that is how you counter if you go for her first But her her beam her beam that does the slow It does is that the one that is a stun too after she lands it first along or whatever. How's that one? Which one's the stun? The stun is the link The link. Okay. That's Lee. All right. But yeah, so the slow on that beam though. It's what 2000 units Which is more than an ADC basic attack range so like literally she can just be sitting there poking you non-stop and you like You have to get your your support has to get in there and stop her So then you can get in there and do some damage to her But then you're putting yourself back into position again for her to link you because then she's now you're in link range The only reason I would rate her as high as you guys are rating her right now is Because her mana consumption Definitely is not where it should be like she can cast abilities all day and still have plenty mana But as far as poking with an ability That decker stun one says when that shit hits you bro That's like Quarter of your health You don't you don't necessarily get a quarter of your health unless space is going full damage. You feel me? Right. No, I'm not saying she's I she's not above duck Right I'm I'm not I agree with that if anything I would like slightly bring duck her up a little bit towards us here But not put her in us here and and keep phase it a Or I guess slightly bring phase slightly down, but I'd still put phase above Muriel Okay I'm I mean I'm I completely disagree with bearded on this one um, what's chat saying because I think windows along along my lines. She's she's fucking straight b But I don't know what chat says Yeah, I said I said to put it right in between because like I understand all the versatility that she provides Boy, it's she's not that fucking good after the nerve Yeah, like like It ended I know but like what did you what was the result? Did you see the pool? It was s2b So All the place b first place c second meek said But empty said it was s2b I'm confused now. We're all in this place. Yeah, I don't know. Uh I I think I don't I just think she's strong, but It's me Yeah, I think we'll keep her be according to uh everything that we've been seeing Richter my personal favorite Um, you're your baby boy there if you just support support wise Fucking down here Like not even on the fucking Not even on the fucking chart. He fucking sucks his support. However All playing really good jungle pretty goddamn good um It's easy to learn how to play against him Uh, I love fucking Richter. I fucking love Richter, but I'm gonna put him in b. I'm gonna put him in b Richter is I want to put him between that b and c tier. Um Really? Yep, no shit. It's because you don't play off lane No, no, no, no, no the b b as in boy c in between b and c Yeah, no not no not d tier. No, he's not that bad. Um No, and I think the reason I want to keep him in b tier is because of the off lane And and because the and because of the ability of that if he does land that hook It is almost guaranteed kill for the adc duo lane, right? But he's all like It's the fact that that hook is almost it's very easy to dodge Um And he's limited with the rest of his abilities because the rest of his abilities are pretty much close up You know things to be done like you have to be in that area. So I definitely put him in between that b and c We think we'll do big boy rig Let me let me color if I hear is this under the assumptions that his hooks are working as should be Oh my god. Yeah, that could that should be taking I'm going off as he is in game right now How many fucking times the rest of people I've had that Fucking dot right on him and then the hook goes like way over here. I'm like, what the fuck Oh, yeah As he is right now I I'd probably say keep him there between b and c quite frankly really I and I love rick. I literally just got him. Uh, what was it to gold? The other day just just because of yolo boy I love me some rick But he if we're talking about currently the way he is Now if all of his folks if all of his polls registered as they should I would I would have registered higher But I I till this day. I still have ultimates where I'm like Blam everybody's caught in it and here goes the carry walking through while the word stun is on him I'm like, give me the fuck out, bro How the fuck the word stun is on him and he's like, I don't know what's happening. I'm just gonna keep walking Like, yeah I think ricker is by far the best melee offlaner But you put him against like Some of the fucking ranged off lanes like dock or grim or fucking mori It's so hard unless you can hit those hooks like every single fucking time, which you're not going to do He just kind of gets shit on but if he's against like Kwong or gray or fucking grucks or a lot of people running chimera off lane now, whatever like he's going to fucking dominate him, but You just don't see that happening now You see everybody leaning towards that that uh that ranged off lane because people just quit and fault so easy There's a there's a heavy heavy damage meta. You think he's better off lane melee than Graystone after the passive change goddamn right he is. Yeah Okay all right, um Yeah, I I still I've been saying it ever since they they nerfed it. Uh, they need to speed up his hook His hook is too slow. It's too easy to dodge Um, I'm not saying it needs to be impossible to dodge, but it needs, you know, it literally is like, you know It's the the matrix, you know bullets move faster. So um It needs to be sped up a little bit Yeah for a big boy His animations are really slow considering that steel leaps into the air with it in a moment's notice without any indicator Which we'll get to that guy later, but Yeah, currently. Yeah, I'm not placing him higher than like B slash c because of the bugs in the game Yeah, if it wasn't for the bugs, I'd put him way higher. But yeah, those bugs hurt so bad Plus a lot of times when you activate his e his fucking Shock there or it's not shock therapy. Whatever the fuck is That shit's called He just you can't basic attack for like three or four seconds afterwards I mean his his kit. I think is decent Like I'm like I'm saying if he were bug free And you'd be able to land everything consistently And you know, like they actually put in some work to keep put him up to par with some people Then yeah, I would definitely rate him higher But the way that he sits right now as much as I love playing rickter as much as I troll around with liquor If it's a try hard match, I'm not gonna be like, yeah, you know what? I'm I don't want to pick rick I'm gonna be real with you. No, I got you. It's just too inconsistent. I just love him so much I can't fucking I can't bring but I'll leave him there to be in c-tier, but man, I love rickter so much. All right, severog I think okay I'm gonna put severog at b-tier. I don't know people are gonna disagree uh I'll explain later. Go ahead and win dude. What do you put it about? This is a rough one, man. It's like what are we basing these 30-minute matches? I'm going b-tier as well while he's waiting No, I like actually like Top tier lobby. I I'm sorry. I'm gonna say see Okay, really Really, okay. I know and I'll explain my point like You as sev late game or sev full sax. Yeah, you know Forced to be fucking messed with right But that's also like saying any of these characters fully fed are forced to be messed with The fact that in the first 30 minutes I can watch anybody be or above Destroy a lobby While sev is like, I mean, I'm dangerous, but I'm not full-stacks yet. Maybe like hold on. I'm almost there like That's what I'm saying like if this is like plus 30 minutes Yeah, sev is nasty. Sev is nasty if it's the average 15 to 25 minute match that you see out there It's it's rough to play sev Right Especially when you have like race zone and everything, you know Chats bring up a great point of the the new meta right now is is 280 c's one off lane and one dual lane And those 280 c's, you know using titan slayer. They kind of just negates a seborrug Not to mention the demon sword that the jungler is probably using Bro, I've seen there's plenty of people running demon sword on solo too. Yeah It's It's it's fucking sad because I think if if people weren't such goddamn pussies that Fucking just pieced out of every game 20 minutes in because they think they're gonna lose. I think sev would shine I think if sev was given enough time to shine he would shine But the way fault is played now everybody fucking quits like a bunch of little pussies so He never gets that time to shine so I think you see dear If you have the time to shine he would be fucking s tier Fucking s we gotta be mindful too For a game that's trying to get their average game time to be like half an hour or less You're literally saying our optimal games have no room for a severon Yeah, me. Yeah, it sucks Like you they got to find out a way to Get him online sooner, but then that presents the problem of a sev that's online too quickly is Yeah He's like he's like a character that doesn't fear what they're trying to make out of fault. Does that make sense? Yeah, I see it. See it best. I'm sorry Yeah Well, that's a rig you can see it says rig this please it's a rig Yeah, it literally Whoever whoever set up that poll needs to be fired confirmed right Fired oh foolish. That's the funniest fucking thing you've ever said All right, uh, I'll keep it down here. I really think he's he should be higher He should be higher. I mean, I don't I wouldn't put him down to you tier. I wouldn't I would I mean You know, I don't think What Let's just remember what we said D tier is if you pick this hero, you're throwing. It's a guaranteed loss I don't think picking a sev is a guaranteed loss No, but there's that lake in condition. Does that make sense? Yeah, I mean it just depends. You know, that's the thing we were talking like extremely situational. Yeah, see We were talking off camera is that sev's stacks are so hard to get for people who don't if you're not You know, I'd like the one thing that d tier that we put is it's only for mains pretty much if you're a sev main You know, you can stack but like it's so hard to get your stacks with him Like you have to like land that it's that's last hitting for an adc You know and you have it's it's a pain in the ass um And then the amount of things you can get stacks with though is is beneficial in that regard But I just think it's uh, I agree with you in that regard in the sense that it's like you don't Get that until late game You know, it's Unless you're somehow able to just I mean, I've seen russ, you know come in You know have some games where he's getting stacks like 18 minutes in or something like that. I'm like, holy fuck How are you full stack that earlier? You know, that's insane, you know, but uh so It's it's a tough one. He's he's a tough character to to Get ahold of and I think that's why I bring I was saying, you know that'd be uh V tier, you know, so Everybody else is kind of saying a little bit lower. So I'm okay with putting me at c tier All right. Now I kind of want to put them like low c Like maybe not quite at the but yeah, because you brought up a good like a great point Like if you're considering d to be like only the mains can play I don't feel like only sub means should play sub But I feel like only sub means are going to be great at set. Does that make sense? Like absolutely astounding like if you're Those few players like yeah, you might you might be killing it as said But anybody else that's killing it in another character might still Have an advantage early to mid game and that's usually when the matches are in So rip That makes me sad because I think there's so much more potential with sebb, but We'll move along to sparo Oh Sparrow is one of the very very very very few that I think is s tier I think you have to either learn her or learn how to play her Learn how to play against her I should say Why do you have to learn her? I guess I'll ask that after we put our little hell situations, but um I'm gonna say a oh Well, that's funny because I was I was actually gonna say like Like like maybe with her feet in a Like you feel me she's she's like hella up there, but maybe not all the way into the red like right there Yeah, yeah, like like like about there, you know because Here's here's the thing she Is way too fucking dominant Especially with the phase out there because the sparrow phase combo has always been discussed, right? Yes So the fact that that's in fault now Is still disgusting And I don't necessarily think she's an instant win condition. That's why I kind of lowered her a little bit Right, but I do think if there is a sparrow, that's a big advantage Bruce, why do you why do you have to learn her? because People severely underestimate sparrow Especially with phase and phase is so dominant right now in the meta Like she just boosts sparrow with her ultimate and Sparrow shreds teams like she shreds teams like Murdock ultimate. Yeah, that can kill one person Twin blast ultimate. Yeah, that kill one person sparrow's ultimate You can kill multiple people with that shit Like she's always been really good and I and I feel to be underrated With phase. She's even better. She's even better I mean, she's got a slow in her q now. She's got a slow in her r&b like That that was always spares very stacking attack speed Yeah, that was always spares biggest drawback was she didn't have any kind of Crowd control to help her out She doesn't even fucking need it now, but she's yeah, but but she has it. She has slows Which isn't great crowd control, but it's it is crowd control. She doesn't have any escape though She doesn't need it The the current meta of damage is so squishy And she's got no escape The current the current meta of damage is so strong She literally With it's just as soon as she gets sort of souls online She already net natively stacks attack speed, right? Anybody building king on her is also natively stacking attack speed You know what i'm saying Like when you combine the ability To be able to do more damage per hit that you land when you combine the fact that her ultimate It's multiple people at once the stacking attack speed on top of that and if you for some reason get away She's got a snipe that'll chunk this shit out of you in a damage meta is disgusting I'm not saying she's not i'm i definitely saying she's she's up there I just don't think she's s tier in the regards and chat's asking about who what carries heaven escape I mean, I don't mean to escape as in uh like you'll literally just get away But like murdoch's got his knockback twin blast has got his uh, uh, dash the dash. She's got um And you know, I guess we could say grim doesn't really have one, but he's got the shield Grim has displaced grim has displaced Displacement too. Yeah, so like he he's anything has a knock back of his words She doesn't have that and she's the squishiest out of all of them So you get on top of her she's done You know and people say though, you know if she doesn't need a late game She doesn't need that. Well, you got to get to late game first and if you are just being Oppressed the whole time what you you can't it makes a difference in that situation So correct me if i'm wrong, but i'm pretty sure she has the strongest poke as a carry Like that right mouse button with that right mouse button that piercing arrow I'm pretty sure that right mouse button just like for example sword of souls only On every carry, right? I might have to disagree only because I think uh, grim's poke might be a little stronger depending on what What uh, mode you're using See, but I don't know the exact numbers. I'm just saying I think I got you the the reason why I was saying it is because I know Grim's scaling on his poke I'm pretty sure and I'd love if somebody fact checks us But I'm pretty sure grim's poke the actual scaling like how much of that percentage Transferred to the poke is less than how much of the actual power being built gets transferred to that right mouse button on sparrow general No idea no idea And de trigger saying bloodsaber like all right, but we're talking about this the the hero themselves and the kit they have right Yeah, you can build bloodsaber every every carry can have bloodsaber Yeah, you put bloodsaber on there But the the other carries don't have to build bloodsaber So now you're taking you're taking an item slot away from me from me of what I can build and And do more damage with or do or be better with and I have to do it just so I can now have an active to be able to escape It takes away from that. So the only poke on a carry. I think The only poke on a carry. I think does more damage than sparrow right mouse button Is the murdoch hole and that's not reliable source of damage because it's like every minute or so, right? Right. Yeah, the yeah cool down on that and and it's you know You gotta think with sparrow like how much do the other adc's benefit from the support's ultimates Like sparrow benefits from decker's ultimate because everybody's grouped up. They're in the same place She can just way late through them Sparrow benefits from nar bash Narbash's ultimate because everybody's slowed everybody's in the same place She blasts right through them She benefits from phases ultimate because it just makes her ultimate faster movement speed And and she and she just stays on top of them and blasts right through them Like the only one she doesn't truly benefit from Is muriel I guess Well, but then you got to consider muriel's a box muriel's more of a boxer support If muriel's landing those basics That means that whoever the target is is getting chunked out even further and as soon as muriel lands an ability Now they're rooted in place, which is just perfect For a sparrow snake. Yeah, I'm saying everybody everybody benefits Pretty much equally from muriel, but sparrow benefits more from every other supports ultimate I'm just gonna put her mostly yes, but not all the way because she's not make or break But having a sparrow on your team definitely puts you at an advantage in the current meta Not even not even necessarily just Kit wise it's just scaling wise as far as everything because she was designed Around not having sort of souls on the field. Do you feel me? And that's why she kind of felt a little bit underwhelming, but once that flat raw power got inserted into the game She just took off. It's it's just an item that's Too fucking strong on her Paul said a at 70 percent. Okay. I I think she's a s in that like I think she's at calari spot halfway halfway um, and the reason being is because I I I Think a calari. Yes You know, I think majority of this game is is either good or decent calari's and it's you You're gonna you know, you're doing really well in that game. You might not win it, but that's a very good chance You're winning it you could have Almost any adc going against a sparrow and you have a good chance of countering that Yeah, she's strong and she's really good, but She can be countered Because of her being so squishy. So I that's why I want to put her in between that spot But yeah, I'll put her a little bit above calari, but I'm not gonna sink her all the way in the aether She's all right. She's the best carry right now by far Interesting. All right. I agree. She is the best carry. I do agree with that Steel or steel F Putting steel at d tier even though I've seen some really great Really great support steels and some half decent jungle steels Like we said with d tier They got to be your main for you to be really good with them And I I'm fuck man steel is in a bad place for me I'm with a brand brand. I'm playing steel only after 18 beers Like I'm I'm not gonna like it the amount of cc of cc that he provides is amazing, right? Right boy I I just feel like he got the quang treatment. There was so much going on with fault all these other characters getting adjusted and everything he just kind of Disappeared the only reason quang is even rated c is because damage quang could still kind of work I'd like you feel me. I don't how many people are gonna run damage steel and be real with me Right. He has to put himself out of position To do almost everything in his kit Right his ultimate. He's diving right into the the the line of fire and Putting himself in bad position and hopefully you land your ultimate, right? Uh, and then everything else like he's gotta be up close to be able to do this shield bash She's got to be right up on him Uh, he's throwing himself into the the fire when he does that shield slide or whatever you call it is you know like everything he's got to do he's got to be right up in there and It it puts him out of position and if he doesn't land it it's it's easy countered Uh His ultimate scares the absolute dog shit out of me Once it's used and probably missed I don't care. I don't care about steel You can't rely on just your ultimate to be an effective hero um Todd I love steel and it's actually decently countered too because as soon as he goes up in the air just run forward Yeah, true That's probably the easiest way to counter a steel ultimate because he's aiming for where you're at or far where you're back Because you're usually backing away from like oh shit stills getting ready And then as soon as you see him go up run forward because it's most likely you're gonna get out of that spot where he's He's gonna land there's times. He's gonna hit it. You know, he'll get so so get it But like that's your best chance of dodging it I love steel in fucking paragon too. It's just it's kind of sad to see the state. He's in right now with fault I think patch 13 Or like early in the patch 13. He was really good. I thought he was really good like i'm Uh, what what's his name angel laws? plays him Really good at support But like i'm saying D tier is kind of like for mains like if you're really good with steel Yeah, you're gonna have a huge impact on the game like but you got to be fucking like Top one percent with steel to have a huge impact on the game. Otherwise You're not gonna be doing much. I mean if you can land the ultimate then awesome but All's it takes to counter that ultimate is bot d And you might say oh well you have to have an item to counter or steal Fucking every support runs bot d like that's the first pickup for every fucking support Right it is also under the assumption that The enemy team isn't already in the lead because you've been waiting for level six at steel To make a real impact, you know Yeah, you can't do much until you're level six because that's your engagement pretty much I've seen some decent ones. I just think in the specific way Tank items are right now, even though they're in a much better spot, right? I don't necessarily Think that he's doing too well like at best. I might put him see You know what i'm saying? Yeah, like I said, he kind of got the quang treatment It's just at least I see people Trying and succeeding with quang as opposed to like mango sustain with steel Bro, you're either trolling or that's your main It's like, you know what? Fuck it. Let's pick steel just for the fun of it We'll see how it goes and then half the time it's like I when I watch streamers play steel It's just like, yep That uh match didn't go as we wanted It's it's it's rough to play steel. I think right now Because passive in the game changed my mind. What is this passive? I don't even know what this passive is. Be honest with you He said his passive doesn't exist. Lamar Man, I'll tell you what though, like I I still only think of the only valid place for him is jungle right and even then I still ran by the junglers. Okay Gives energy armor on cc stacks. Okay I I don't think he's d tier. I was joking when I said f I would definitely say he's c tier because his kit Is really strong when able to apply it But I would definitely put him c tier, but like again, he's he literally you have to he's like severog You have to wait till he gets online and he's not online until six until level six pretty much Now he gets online before severog. Obviously because severog needs to get those stacks But yeah, I mean that's so I would say c tier Yeah, honestly, since you mentioned that because again, we got to keep the rest of the board in comparison Would you prefer quang or a steal? Uh, for what? On your team, let's just say whether it be solo, whether it be jungle Let's just focus on solo jungle right now. I would rather have a steal You rather have a steal over quang on your team. What about you? Yes, not as a support I don't want to steal support. I'm talking about like offline here, you know or jungle Let's assume solo jungle Quang sport versus steal support No, I would take not at all. I would take steal support over quang sport, but uh I would take quang offline over steal offline any day. I would take quang jungle over seal jungle any day. Um I think a well-played quang is far more effective than it far more effective than a well-played steal Would you prefer sab or a steal? Seth What about you beard? Uh, I I would definitely rather have a steal but again, I'm I'm I'm basing this off of you're asking me like I'm an adc main I want the I want all that cc Give me that cc, please But I don't want them as a as a support because again Where I'm stuck here waiting till he's level six before I can do anything You know, give me as a give me a him as a jungler or an off laner And you know, let me have decker as my support or a phase as my support you know and and uh Bring him over, you know in team fights or as ganks and I would rather have that cc Okay Uh, what did what a chat put him at the pole majority did be uh, then c and I think I was saying c tier When do what were you saying? I I said d quite frankly. Yeah, I'm with the wind like he he provides a lot of utility, but Even even in jungle like as far as clears of concern and stuff like I just In the current meta, I wouldn't maybe before. Yeah, I would have read it from way higher, but currently I I wouldn't hurt my fucking soul because I love steel, but oh well Last one last man last man last man You air ball above us we'll get that shit Look at this grouping. That's crazy twin blast I think twin blasts is pretty solid a tier I put twin blasts right there as viable as bellica Not as good as decker. I mean, that's all right. Not as good as a sparrow but If you pick him, it's not a bad pick for sure dies or he's a feel sad for murdoch That's a rip It's where he's at though. I mean, I He's my he's my main. Believe me. That's my it's my boy like but I definitely feel that that's where it lands for sure If you feel like twin blasts has been the best treated carry Good wow like since the beginning of fault. He was the first care Yeah, like since the beginning till now He's never been in a oh, you don't want to play twin blasts. He sucks You know, he's always been at least a decent spot But right. Yeah, he's he's not bad Especially with some of the stuff we got going on right now like sort of souls rogue, etc He's not a bad one to throw out there at all. I'll have to look it up again, but I played fault the first time I played fault was I think It was november or october of 2018 and I played twin blast I guess I'll not so he's he's been around for a long time True He was in there bruh Now kids, do we want to make some adjustments here? Yes Well, I think we do I think we do Can we look at the can we just go in the same order? Can we look at that bear positioning? So boris we got him at eight here Do you think he's a tier? I want to drop him down a bit compared to the to the rest of the lobby Like he was the first one that we started, you know, we just kind of went with it, right? But I think Because my original justification was a bear with a couple items takes off, right? right, I mean Same argument could be made elsewhere, right? We agreed not to look at just This the the individual characters like we'll take the scaling into consideration and such but I I I don't think he poses As great of a threat As a counters does you know what i'm saying or as a sparrow does Or like the bellica twin blast like I think he's He could be dangerous But it's it's not necessarily as good. You know what i'm saying? Yeah What do you say? Beaded looks confused I was reading chat. Um, but I I think he's strong. Um, I don't think he's too strong You know, I know a lot of people in the community think he's you know S tier op that needs to be nerfed and stuff, but I think he's in a good spot Um So i'm okay with them, you know if we want to drop him down to that ab tier like I think I mean he's not Unstoppable, you know, he has ability that makes him unstoppable, but uh, but that's it, you know Yeah, I'll be real. I can't remember when's the last time I Seriously had a big problem with against the bear Like it was something that you could work around or work with your team You feel me that's not like I pulled that like calari like uh guys. I died behind you turn around Like So de trigger over here being a calari main, you know is a really anti-borus person so You can tell those calari mains. They really don't like the Boris Uh count us do we want to keep her at mid a or we want to raise her or lower her? I think she's good where she's at I would lower her but Really how come Like I said if she doesn't Get those early kills. She's Fucking useless. Well, I mean, well, we gotta adjust because we've been going on right so hold on So let's just compare against the the average. You're right. Hmm Would you prefer a counter sir getting get in Here it is And what if we hold on I'm not I'm not gonna compare them I don't think count us is a mid laner that the counters is a jungler She's so strong on the jungle with this with 14 right now. Would you for a count is it were a Boris count count us to the bay uh count us Boris Count us is gonna just just literally just gonna melt people Boris, you know is I don't I definitely would prefer count us right now the way count us her wave clear and what she's able to do In the jungle now as she's so strong. Okay. Here's what I want to say though If count us gets ahead she fucking melts people If Boris gets ahead he fucking melts people If Boris is behind he still contributes to the team fight if count us gets behind She ain't shit Hmm I'm not a horrible like my answer would be I definitely would prefer the count us But that's not a horrible way to look at it. You know what I mean, right? Like at least Boris is a body He could still soak some damage If if he's behind just be like, yeah, man bear Build tank and just try to survive as long as you can hope the rest of your team can take over right You can't necessarily ask the same from a count us or you I guess count us, but it won't be as effective count us can go in and Sacrifice herself get rid of the adc and now the rest of you like it's your adc versus therefore not if she's behind All right, so look under the assumption good players, right? Under the assumption That a good player knows account is is rotating over because if they're good they warded they know she's coming right Do you think that count is is going to be able to get the kill on the carry? I mean, it's a toss up That's what I'm saying like in a highly on both ends. I think well, yeah, but in a highly competitive game The jungle getting 15 kills by like 20 minutes is not normal highly competitive game and jungle might have three to five in 15 20 minutes You get me Because their players actually know what they're doing and they're gonna, you know ward They're gonna you're gonna communicate and be like yo careful left lane retreat And he's like all right bet like it's It's different. You feel me all up, but I I will say though. I would rather have A countess on my team as a jungle than a bear in my team as a jungle. Okay I'm thinking of it from a sport perspective like If a countess and a boris are on equal level I have a much better chance as a support of shutting that countess down And keeping her from killing my adc Then I do a boris because boris can go unsupply And there ain't shit I can do against those top That's It's a toss up. I mean honestly if it's such a toss up Should they be both equally rated them? Do you want do you want to drop countess down to boris's level? I don't know now. You got me contemplating whether we should have dropped boris That's what I was saying. So you want to drop? I agree with the both Maybe uh, baby man who said boos is beer cheer beats here from the beginning. Maybe No beats here from the beginning. No Well, okay, so let's so let's look at let's just take a look at boris again real quick What are the what are the other junglers that we're really comparing him with like we obviously know calari something, right? But when we're looking at grucks graystone chimera Would you prefer boris? I would prefer boris over both chimera and graystone Interesting bearded Uh, yeah No, no when I pick my junglers. I'm picking either boris or grucks Because I'm not good with countess. So yeah when I'm going if I'm actually forced to juggle I'm fixing either boris or grucks So yeah, I would definitely want them over them Yeah, I still think he should be higher than feature Like the fact that his lifesteal scales based off of his missing health and the enemy's missing health Is ridiculous, especially somebody that can benefit so much from sort of souls Actually kind of nutty. So we're putting boris back online with countess Do you want to raise countess up? Yes, I do If this was if this is pre if this is pre 14 I would I would have been okay with countess being down Okay, yeah, you know a b tier but pre 14 countess was fucking trash Right, and but now with 14 she's up there. She's she's a tier in my opinion I'm giving her the ability to blink an entire minion Increase her wave clear like crazy Yeah, yeah, I'll be real like the fact that It almost feels like strange matter struggles to balance the assassins Because that is their goal. You feel me to just show up delete disappear Um, yeah, I wouldn't rate any of the assassins lower than just a flat eight quite frankly right Well, except mortgage because you want to put her in b tier Okay, so we've got an established boris established countess now decker I would put it a little bit higher actually, but I mean you could put her high age. I wouldn't put her in the s at all. But yeah, right there's fine. I'm okay with that that I'm not That's semantics in my opinion with that but it makes sense. I get what I'm just saying with I get what we're doing what we're trying to Settle that so I'm okay with that. I can handle that one I think she's like Keeping in track with the rest of the board. I think she's already high enough for a support to prove that she's valuable But I would never start putting a decker as influential as a calari or a sparrow You get me? That's why I was okay I'm okay with having decker like mid a right boy She's all like as far as supports go. She's already The highest rated support by a decent margin like almost a full margin. You get me? Like We We don't necessarily need to move her up even higher because you really think Decker is better than gideon or counts as far as team comps. Yes 100% I could see in a damage burst meta fucking hundred percent. Yes She can she can limit that damage burst with her abilities what she's got going on That damage don't mean nothing if they're all behind the wall while you're running away or stunned Like gideon's ultimate out She cancels gideons ultimate she she can cancel counters his ultimate Well, I guess what I'm saying is As far as related to the other supports I wouldn't rate her that much better even though in my opinion. She is the best. Yeah, I'm saying though I can't add that She does I can't be wrong Wrong. Oh, yeah, yeah If you guys want to yeah, I mean it's I'm in a I'm okay. Either way. I'm just saying if you want to move her up I'm okay if you want to leave her where should we were we had her in mid mid a I'm okay with that That's to me in my opinion. That's the metrics make a fucking decision Don't fucking wish you watching me. Don't be playing that. I did make a decision. I said h here. We're good He's in there. It's see Okay, who was next I don't I then lost fucking Right, um We got grucks gravestone those two. I mean can I It's gonna be weird after gadgets next after uh, ducker. Yeah. Yeah gadget. We got her a seat here. I think that's good actually Yeah, leave it there. I'm I don't I I've I've goodie I think gideons good today Well gideon compared to bellica since they are both equally matched That'd be a good spot to look at why can't they both be equally matched Why does one have to be better than the other because bellica is better than gideons? In your opinion. I'm not saying you that's I mean that's fine. That's your opinion But like why does one have to be better than the other? Why can't They both be eight here. Why can't they both be a mid or whatever or a high? I don't care, but like Oh, they could if bellica wasn't better than gideon I can't with you bruh I think they're both great in that position. Like I literally I can leave them both right there. Okay What do you say window? Sure. I mean I I still would prefer a gideon Or like I understand the utility that bellica provides Yeah, I understand the utility that bellica provides But giving again giving her the fact that her drone Does minimalistic damage, right? Taking that into consideration I can't look at any part of gideon's kit and be like, yeah, that part's lackluster Like even if we're looking at the portal like your team can go through it He can position himself in a good spot for the ultimate, etc That even the portal alone I'll pull applies way better utility and versatility As opposed to that drone And then if we're looking at just flat damage output between the two characters Dude a gideon is gonna be able to rock them sock them so fucking quick Right compared to the knock up bellica combo. Like it still does damage But that three rock on the gideon is just too disgusting Plus gideon can port the entire team off the map if he wants to And guess guess you can do that Ah, yeah, yeah, he does laugh, but I can do it. I know Yeah, I'm laughing because I've been sat down. It's not the first time I've heard you say it All right, so after gideon's gravestone Well, well bearded real quick, which would you prefer a gideon or bellica? on your team Gideon Okay, so I'm gonna raise his Gideon just a little touch higher than bellica then okay All right, so I guess next would be grucks, right? Grucks and gravestone gravestone gravestone is the next one then grim then grucks So gravestone, I mean, I'm I'm happy with him where he's at I would actually rank him higher but um Chat and you and I think window all three disagree But yeah, I think with his passive. I think he's higher I think he's amazing an amazing jungler for whatever reason. I don't fucking know Like I don't know why he's a good jungler, but like when I see gravestone pick jungle on my team like Patch 13, I'd be like, what the fuck are you doing patch 14? I'm like, cool I got a gravestone jungle on my team. You know what I mean? Yeah, I don't understand it I saw it happening in 13 and they carried over 14 I don't know the reason for it. I don't play the hero enough to understand it, but yeah It happened. I don't know why it happened Well, they made him a more effective jungler by having his passive stacks scale from hitting jungle minions So now he's actually getting active regen as he's clearing the jungle camp ridiculously fast. Okay. It's basically what it comes down to um What are we talking about like just gravestone like where we think he should be yeah Do we think we he should move or not? Goose thinks he should go up a little more Chat when we did this first vote said we he we were we thought we were in a good spot where he's at Apparently empty asked who's out of all these heroes who's the one that should move the most and they said gravestone So we should do a revote for gravestone. I guess to see where chat thinks he should go but um I don't know I I'm happy where he's at like I think he's that's a good spot for him I Before I think it was like what not 13. Yeah before that little passive thing that he had the change that he had He was 2 w key and didn't have much going on for him. So I had to put him more of like a c tier Like we're Richter's at but I think he's in a good spot Could you go over like what we the category is that you guys had set for each tier real quick So as tier is you either must pick or at least learn how to play against A tier is A really good pick and you probably should learn how to play against b tier is situational Depending on your team comp c tier is situational depending on Your team comp and the enemies team comp D tier is only for mains people that are really good with the zero will excel with them But only because they are really good with that hero I mean, I'll be real with you Just based off of those Yeah, like grace on his and make a break like He is situational. You feel me right? Like pick him if you want somebody that's pretty tanky, but you still want to smack around feel me Sorry, like I say you're picking somebody that you want to have a decent escape while jungling I don't think he is a great pick and you should learn To play him like I don't think that's somebody that like There are so many other characters that can be utilized in that situation I don't think he's one that like hey, this is somebody that needs to be learned Is that what b is? That's what a is a tier great pick and you should learn the hero b is Good pick depending on your team comp And I do think he's a good pick depending on the team cup. I think he fits that really well Yeah, I mean just Somewhere in b like i'm yeah, I think he's about as b as b can get really when you when you define it by those terms Which is that's what i'm saying like it really it really comes down to the Definition that we're establishing here because people are like y'all is he gonna do good or not? Yes, well, yeah, I mean like we have characters that are easy lock on like morguesh That doesn't mean that a good player can't counter a great stone. You feel me right like they can't counter a morguesh That's what i'm saying like it's situational yeah So let's move he is a nuisance to deal with as an adc man like he like you know that that two life Situation is gonna pay the acid man. I gotta kill you and I gotta kill you again I get it, but I don't think He's you know, that's about all that that's the what he's good for in that situation So rucks, I think rucks should be higher than gravestone So I think he's better in the jungle than gravestone is at off lane And I think he's better in the jungle than gravestone is in jungle Hold up you think rucks is better than in the jungle than gravestones in off lane And you think rucks is better than the jungle than gravestones in jungle. So you said I don't know what the fuck I said because i'm pretty drunk right now Oh my god Gravestone is a better off laner, but I think rucks is a far superior jungler than gravestone I mean as far as what he provides for the team Like you take kit wise I would prefer rucks hell, yeah But it's just my my only thing is After the passive change That put gravestone at a whole another level it did it really did it helped him out a lot I like I have a build for gravestone that mid fight full tank. I'm regenning 30 per second like his His regen is pretty fucking disgusting Pretty disgusting and I know for a fact that if a full belt gravestone and a full bow rucks get into it There's a good chance that gravestone is making it out. He at least has the best escape And as far as damage is concerned They're both going to get in good damage. Well, correct me if I'm wrong. I'm pretty sure gravestone scales better In health maybe armor. I'm not sure, but I know gravestone has a higher health cap I think he's the highest scaling in health in the whole game if I'm not mistaken Um, yeah, that's a 1v1. We got to think about the whole team What's gravestone going to do that grucks can't he's going to disarm which can be absolutely amazing But he's not going to pull and stun He's not going to charge and stun He's not going to stun And gravestone not gravestone grucks, uh For that time of his roar when he goes into his ultimate. Isn't he immune? He is immune to cc. Yes Just for that split second. Yeah, it's yeah, it's just that split time But that I mean if you time it right that's Grayson doesn't have trauma like chat saying also Like that's what I'm saying like as far as kids are concerned I definitely grucks, but I still think in the current meta and how the character is balanced I think gravestone sits above grucks just at least the way that things are sitting right now But if okay, I don't understand how that makes sense to me Like if his if the kit itself we're sitting here then how how does that hero not Better than the other one that doesn't have the better kit Because you're not taking scaling into yeah There's certain things that just stand out like it doesn't matter how great the kit is Sometimes something is just way better like we could use steel as an example steals kit and with all that cc fucking amazing right But I still have like five other picks I would pick before steel You know what I'm saying like sometimes the kits are good It's just the balance isn't there the scaling whatever it may be the passive that they have etc Like I I agree that grucks his kit is better Like at just looking at black and white in the book when actually in the game A gravestone Just does can do more Because you got to be mindful. Yes. He has a yes grucks has a pole. Yes grucks has a a knock-up Once those two are out you're waiting a good like what 10 8 to 10 seconds Until he can do all that shit again Gray stone is w key left like the entire fucking time. Yeah, I still think grucks is better than gray stone But yeah, I totally agree. You got like communism looks great on paper, but it doesn't fucking work capitalism It's like dog shit, but it fucking works Gray stone is capitalism And goddamn grucks is a communist but I'll take fucking Stalin in this one. I'll take solar Boris over the Russian bears a what I am better for you I am better for you All right. All right next is grim. Where are we at with grim? Grim we had him right pretty goddamn high which I'm happy about goddamn it. I think grim is very underrated I do agree. Yeah, I'm I think I'm okay with it So am I Like and he has a versatility of being a mage if he fucking wants to and he chunks as a full blue grim A chunks a full red grim I mean, yeah No And he's gotta be retired because like I mean that snake skin window loves that snake skin on him So I think you better be quiet, bro. Hmm Hmm Grimm is if we if this were a tier list of who got the worst skin in the game grim is at the top confirmed If they would just give him an actual refrigerator with arms and legs skin that would be actually it would have been amazing Actually, what uh, yes stainless stainless steel grim Okay, you know what we've talked about so many times with fault is that they need to like branch out and like get some like Some cross pollination with other IPs. Yeah, we need a bender skin