 We're running a quiz through the day, and you may just win yourself an iPhone XR. The question right now in the air is, we're repeating this once again, what is the worldwide and India PC market share for Microsoft advertising? And your options simplified are 15%, 10% or 9.6 and 8.1%. The options right there will hold it there for a few seconds for you to make your quick notes into your phones. 15.6% and 10.1% option A or 10.6 and 4.1% option B or 9.6 and 8.1% option C. Come on, tweet your answers using hashtag techmunch. Please tag the circa digital handle at the rate circa digital and please tag the Microsoft advertising handle at the rate MSFT advertising. Send out your answers and you may just win yourself an iPhone XR. Okay, ladies and gentlemen heading into the next session. Now this is a super session that focuses on whether marketers in today's world are actually truly leveraging the power of user engagement within apps. Now, if you ask me, I think we live in an era where there is this massive adoption of smartphones that has happened, massive adoption of social media that has happened. We have massive number of startups and apps out there. There's never been a better time to leverage user engagement within apps. So, let's slice this open. I'd like to invite on stage the chair of this session, Clyde Nunes, director sales true caller. Good afternoon. Very warm welcome to you. I used to call it too. And I'd like to invite on stage the panelists of this session, Jahid Ahmed, digital content and marketing at TFC Bank. Good afternoon. Really rebello head marketing Z5. Good afternoon. Shibu Sivanandan, a CEO and founder, Pivotruths. Good afternoon to you too. Subrita Somya, senior manager marketing communications and head digital CVBU, Tata Motors. Good afternoon. And Vishal Chinchankar, CDO Madison. Good afternoon. I got your name right, didn't I? Was that correct? Okay. I'm handing this over, ladies and gentlemen, to the chair of this session, brand marketers, whether they are truly leveraging user engagement within apps. Let's find out. A notification sent to him saying that do you want to grab a bite right now? So I think you got to be a little more doing the right time, right marketing sort of a thing, which is nothing but a smart marketing. Yeah. I can talk about another example where we had a client who looked at selling some waterproofing solutions. And it's very hard to sort of look at a consumer who's possibly is building his own house. Easiest ways to do a carpet bombing, get a Google Facebook and just look at your TG and target them at a frequency of 15 maybe. What we did is we used true color. And let me tell you what a smart way of targeting we used was that every person who calls a contractor or a plumber or a carpenter or any of this labor involved into building up the houses and we targeted ads only specifically to them. Now that's probably making a big difference and obviously it results into performance as well. In both cases, we had a fantastic performance coming up. It did act as a branding campaign, but it works well. So the point is there's life beyond DA use and MA use. Perfect. We have a very different addition to probably, you know, MA and DA use are something that you consider when you are, you know, taking the entire apps into the consideration set. But things, other variables that we also look at as an organization, we have taken an approach of being programmatic first. So we look at how well are, is the programmatic integration going to happen? How is the first party and the third party integration or the second party integration is beautifully done between apps? Third, you know, and the most important data point is also the audience profiling, the audience and the behavior profiling. Are we able to get logged in, logged off, logged in or non logged in data? How do we actually segregate all this data and then put it back into the planning is something very, very important. Other important aspects is does the app allows you to do creative customization at some point in time? This is probably the variable A, B, C, D, everything put together. Can I show a personalized app to the user? That is where the entire future is, right? About how do we personalize, how do we create those buckets? So, you know, when we look at it from a planning standpoint, MA use, DA use, fantastic, good. Time spent, stickiness, you know, accessibility to their data. How well can you do customization, programmatic, data integrations? These are the other variables that we also look at when we do the actual planning on board. Perfect. So, that's the secret sauce that you look for in terms of apps coming and giving you those insights. Absolutely, yep. Perfect. I can add to that, right? From our perspective, we also look at MA use, DA use are fine. I mean, they sound only nice in a financial report, but we look at a lifetime value of a customer from the time he even comes in, right? So, how do I get him to watch more content on my platform? How do I get his wife to watch more content? How do I get his child to watch more content? It is not something that a lot of people track, but we put a lot of emphasis on lifetime value. So, even if my cost per subscription could be a bit higher from a performance angle, if it justifies his lifetime value to us as a marketing point of view, we would spend on that. So, that is one key metric which we do. I mean, not really MA use and DA use. Interesting. One thing that is very important to also look at was I actually touched upon. There are sites that there are apps that we have seen giving fantastic CTRs, but these were either a bot or there were accidental clicks as well. So, there are apps where you log in and then there is a homepage takeover, right? I mean, the clicks are bound to happen, right? And then you look at the report saying that CTRs are like about over 10% fantastic. I mean, those are not also the right metrics to look at. Perfect. So, I think that's a great segue into the next question. I think this one I'll open up with Vishal and Shibu. When it comes to app insights, right? Are all app insights useful? For example, there are about 50 to 60 apps out there. All of them are publishers. They're coming to you and they're saying, okay, this is the unique data that we can give you. This is how we can make your marketing campaign more edgy. This is how we can help your brands. Any interesting stories or any horror stories that you've had where you've, you know, picked up on any of these and kind of been on the back foot with the client? So, you know, every app guys that come today tells me that, you know, we have fantastic first party data. There is a lot of audience profiling that we have. But when we actually go two step down and then start the campaigns, because we are also, we also look at it from a performance. So, every brand campaigns also, when I talk about performance, performance need not only be a lead cost per sale, performance could be also looking at other metrics like, you know, how is the brand left happening and all those things. So, there are a lot of these stories where, you know, when they come from a sales team perspective, there is a lot of things that they end up showing, you know, we have fantastic integration. When you go down two layers down, start the integration, that's a challenge. It is never, never integratable. Again, that accidental click, that was one of the stories that, you know, we personally faced, you know, even we were so happy, we were like, so fantastic CTRs. And then we realized there is a lot of accidental clicks. We put some, so, you know, if apps would come with much better data and much closer to campaign life data also, it's really very, very great. That's amazing. So, my answer is yes and no. No because you'll have, it depends on the objective of the campaign or it depends on the objective of what the advertiser really wants to get out of it. In case of your cost per acquisitions and all, it's like a carpet bombing. You have a specific target audience, I just want to reach out to them 20 times. I'll use my first party, second party, I'll build a local, I'll do everything. So it really doesn't matter whether I want to look at an inside because end of the day there's a gun on my head by the advertiser who says that I want 20,000 acquisitions by end of this month at 100 bugs, right? So what do you do? Yeah. You don't go down to that publisher saying that look I need you to give me this but just do a carpet bombing, you'll achieve your numbers. So the answer is no for that. But in cases where you really want to do a smart targeting and a couple of examples that I said earlier, right? Yeah. In that case, the insights really come into play, right? So it depends on the objective as I said earlier. Something I'd like to share. Okay, one horror story. This is two years back when we were first doing a major app launch campaign. We are starting to analyze the data. Just tell me something, guys. From installed to registration, what should be an ideal time that you'll be taking? From installed to registration. Any idea? From your own experience, you have installed an app, then you're registering within an app. Anyone? Anyone? Five minutes? Okay. Beast is one minute. You'll explore what's there. We saw 10% of my traffic and it's a huge number. 10% of the traffic in 10 seconds. Okay. Install to registration done. Same pattern. So we are doing a timestamp analysis. Then back map. Same IP. Guys, they don't want to listen to the story. It's too horrific, maybe. Okay. So same IP, same timestamp is around 10 seconds. Install to registration happening. Then we understood. So we said, okay. Fraud was not so famous at that point of time. So we said, let's watch and see what's happening. Not a single transaction happened at that after that. Okay. So that was horrific two years back and now we all know what's happening. That's how we have to measure. The other thing that we really want to know is viewability. Interesting. Especially in app viewability. I don't know if there's a definition. Maybe you guys can answer it better. Okay. That's something I'm not being able to track at all. That's something we can all just discuss here. Viewability is something I think definitely a lot of marketers are looking for today. I think that's super important. And that's I think a part of every brief that also goes out, not only from the brands today, but also from the agencies. I mean, that's one of the metrics that I definitely get questioned on. And thankfully we're in the green out there. Perfect. So another thing that we've seen off late is the influencer bubble. Right. It's very interesting to see how that market of influencers kind of. Expanded to a point where every brand was coming in and talking about influencer marketing. And now that that bubble is about to burst, we're seeing micro influencers, influencers being shunned by businesses and by the mass public as well. Because they have no hold. I mean, the recent case study of this influencer on Instagram who had around 10 million followers could not even sell 36 of her own t-shirts. Right. As brands, what is it that you think is going to come next? What is the next big bubble that is going to first after the influencer bubble? I don't know. I think, I think, you know, a lot of this claim to have a higher MA use, higher reach when when you actually run the campaigns, they are just one third of what they project. I don't know. I feel that some point in time, all this at some point in time will get shut down. Yeah. That's a strong point of view. No, but I'll take a step back and I'll tell you that in commercial vehicle, the influencer bubble is also not bursted. You, I can't even get five best influencer for commercial vehicle. So I'm saying that we have not even reached there in commercial vehicle. So that is also very important. Do we stick to that? Look, I think it's not a bubble to be honest. The ecosystem is going through a change every alternate one. There's something new that keeps coming up and then something that goes by, we call it as a passe. We may not call it as a bubble, but there's still a merit in some part of it. Some of it may not work, but some of it really works well, right? And I don't think there's anything sort of a bubble. It's just a changing environment that we live in. Till yesterday, we were talking about programmatic and your first party. Today we're talking DMP. Tomorrow we'll talk ML, AI, which is already on. So it'll just keep evolving, right? Yeah. See, where in the entertainment thing, right? So far, our perception is everything. So influencers are like my bread and butter. But it depends on what kind of influencers. They're not idiots who say we have 10 million people and it's just that when they put out a post to get only hearts and, oh, I want to meet you. You are so hot kind of comments. And so we stay away from those people. Our influences for us would be actors. So for a recent campaign that we did, we had a good stack. We had Dia and we had Mohit. And they got people like Karan Johar. They got the whole of Bollywood to tweet about our stuff. They got people to talk about our stuff. So those may be normal celebrities, but for us it was so much of organic kind of push which saved us so much of money if you had to actually go out and pay them. So influencers, if picked properly and if done organically in the best is the nicest way. I don't think it's a bubble that's burst. It's just the idiots are going out and the more relevant ones are staying in. And what's the next big trend in that sense? Anything that is not contextual in terms of reach, in terms of numbers that don't impact business will die off soon. That's what we keep talking internally also. So a lot of our marketing plans are everything has to be only contextual. And it doesn't mean niche, but it just contextual to what time of day, to what kind of person and so on. I think for us the bubble is not yet formed. So for banking industry influencers, we have to look towards advocates. Influencers, anything paid, as you rightly said, we have to look towards earned media slowly. Banking guys have to really struggle hard, live up to our words, to earn those advocates and then only we'll start the bubble. Otherwise it's only paid influencers, that's just a form of advertisement. And other than influencers, what do you think is the next big trend that is really annoying even that you wish went away? No, so I think, again, coming straight to my first answer, which is campaign orchestration. We cannot randomly do campaigns, be it an influencer talking about it. People are intelligent enough to understand it's a brand plug-in or it's not a brand plug-in. So how intelligent we are doing it, how human side of our brand we are showing it, why are the acts we just want can'ts? For a CSR-led social media activity that we did and we just want can'ts with Leo Van it. So it's all about how human side of your activity that you're showing to the world, which will get a better connect with the millennial audience. And they are not there with any kind of stop-gap activity. They are there to connect with you if you're hitting the right cause. So that's what's very important, to hit the right cause in the right contextual way. Perfect. So I think all of us on the stage as well as in the audience know that apps are tracking everything today. And as marketers and as agencies, we are trying to make the best out of it. Yet there are quite a few gaps missing. Everything isn't available today. And I think I'll just flip it around. I'll start with Vishal this time. Vishal, let's hear your wish list from app publishers. What would you like to see from the agency side of things? Look in this ecosystem, what's happening is there are lots of these giants coming in and building their own wall gardens, right? I serve an impression and when I get a click, is when I capture the data or I capture the device ID. But in an app ecosystem, these giants and all these publishers do not pass that data. Right? Now data is a big story. Data helps you build audience cohorts. They help you build fuel time, targeting parameters and all that stuff. And obviously, giants being giants, they want to keep the data with themselves so that they build upon it and all. But if there's a wish list, I would say that, you know, pass me that back into my DMP and I'll probably build you a better marketing solution that could also give a birth to and maybe a ML product for that category, right? I think that's something that I would look for. That's a big one. So, Vita. Yeah, so, see, we are getting a lot of data points from apps, but one data which is missing is the occupation data. Can we get information that, okay, this guy whom I am targeting is a fleet owner, is a truck driver or is an e-commerce player because those are my target audience. So, can I be specific? Can we stick to that and focus on them and we take approval from them to target them, but still, can we get that data point? It's our wish list. So, you want to get further into the user's phone? Yes. Okay. If you ask me, I'll just build on to what Vishal said. YouTube claims to have about 250, 300 million. Facebook is about 300 million. True callers is about 100, 200 million. If all of them talk to each other and give us the data back, fantastic. We are almost covering the entire digital spectrum, right? Okay. I mean, that's one huge thing that could change all the wall gardens, basically start talking to each other and let us target that one user across the platform at a certain frequency. Now, we're doing planning separately, though, you know, we're taking some insights from probably a Nielsen or a Kanta to build those kind of insights, but then if the targeting options are available, nothing like it, right? Yeah. Like how ComScore gives you the data of cross-site visitation. Can we have some insights on that and what are the kind of site, you know, app visitation that the audience have? Should I, like, you know, I remember when I started planning, because of the ComScore, I could basically pinpoint saying that should I take a live bin visa-vis a money control? Can I do that kind of a better, you know, sizing right now with the apps? So those are the kind of things that I would want to probably see coming through. So from my point of view, I just hope that we get smarter insights. We have a lot of data, but it depends on what do we do with the data. So what kind of insights can I get if I know a guy has taken an Ola in the morning and not an Uber, a guy has watched a certain show in the afternoon and not a news article? What can I do with that? So if there is some kind of service that helps me build on insights with that data, it would just help me a lot more. Like, I get a lot of numbers the whole day, but I don't know what to do with those numbers. So maybe someone who put some sense into numbers would help. Interesting. Okay. Data scientists too require. So I think it's good that we're all talking on the same note. Unified measurement is the need of the day. You know, as a brand marketer, I have to advertise separately on a Facebook, separately on a YouTube, 10 times to him, 10 times to him. I don't know if I'm targeting the same guy 20 times, or it's multiple audience 10, 10 times. You know, that's something I need. Campaign suppression. You are getting, you are feeling odd that you're seeing my, you have seen remarketing strategies, right? I have already bought it, but still I'm seeing that ad. Okay. It's such a waste of money and it's an irritation for that guy also. Show him something else, show him the next upsell or cross-sell, right? So I need those data points coming to me quickly so that I can do my real-time campaign optimizations. Okay. Third is, I don't know if it's already there in the market. Maybe I'm missing it is hyper-local data, which is not 100 meters. I want 5 meters so that I can serve that. If you're going to Phoenix Mall, I know you're going to that store. I have an offer against the store. Can I serve you that offer right at that point of time? Okay. Can I get that data from you guys coming to me so that I can throw that offer to you? And not 100 feet or 100 meters. I don't know everybody just passing because of his job routine and I can still showing that offer to him. Okay. Those are the data points I need. I think that's great because all of us have spoken as marketers and as agencies, but as consumers, would you be comfortable with an app on your device taking the data from you and then passing it on to the other side? Vishal has an answer. Look, that's happening as we speak, right? Yeah. Your app knows everything about you. Your phone knows more than what you know. Are you talking about true cause right now? Everyone. We don't have that. I don't think you are passing the data to me. It's your data. You are helping me to understand the customer and throw my communication to him at the right point of time. And help me with the overall feedback data. Don't pass any data of that guy to me. As a consumer, what are your points of view? Privacy is a big topic today. And I think there is app data on one side and then there's privacy on the other side. It always gets questioned. Consumer is loving personalization. It comes at a cost. If that personalization is coming into the picture, I'm okay with that. I don't want to see 100 ads. Show me five ads which are relevant for me. If I look at it from a market years plus the customer standpoint, then this is what I would want. Show me 10 ads which are relevant to me. I don't want to see the entire universe. I don't probably want a personal loan. I don't probably want a credit card. I don't want to see an OTT channel. Or I don't want a Swiggy. This is the five things that I want. Because you are getting my data, serve me relevant ads. And just to define data, it's all hashed, it's all encrypted. So there's no exchange of true data that's getting passed anywhere. So that's for the large audience. I also would like to add that personalization is very important because if I am planning to go on a holiday, I'm okay getting ads related to that packages. So personalization is important and if we are interested in something, we are okay getting that kind of ad. But if I'm not interested in a lottery game, I would not want to see an ad around that. So that's very clear customer point of view also. We are okay to see that kind of ads, which are relevant to us. I agree with Jai Dhani. It has to be anonymized. It has to be encrypted. It has to be secured. And then it's fine if you retarget that customer. Also, I think this privacy is a myth there. Like the moment we step into it, there are half of the tweets of people know where you are. Everyone knows you're not in office. Everyone knows you're sitting at the Taj. So our life is on social media. So I don't think we should be making a big deal about privacy. We willingly tell people where we are and what we do, what we eat, what we wear. And a lot of people know that this data is consumed by companies for advertising. So I don't think people care too much. Unless you're actually invading on their really, really personal movements, there should be some border there. Perfect. So that's Riley, the marketer talking. You can always catch him after this session. But two very clear points coming out. I think consolidation of data, one view and one persistent statement being made through any of the campaigns that you run. And then second is even more personalization of data coming in. Knowing more about the consumer so that you can serve him or her better. I think we'll end with one very important question. I think this is super important to everyone attending here today. What is the one piece of advice that you would like to give marketers when it comes to talking to an app audience? I think if I am talking, or I think almost all of you guys who are brand marketers, you are talking to an audience who might be an early-jobber, who might be a millennial, she might be a woman. Risk taker, safe investor, so many customer profiling and personas. Ensure that you stop generalizing communication, understand what communication suits each one of you. You guys are in the digital field. There is enough footprint for you to understand who is what. No more segments, no more cohorts. Understand each one of them personally. Do a data science proper predictive analytics and show what is relevant for them. That really helps. Yeah, it's exactly the same. Just be very contextual. Don't show me stuff which is not relevant to me. Show me something which I am interested at that point of that point of day, at that point of time, depending on my habit. Just be very, very contextual and don't do anything else. I don't want to know how good your suit material is if I am not looking for a suit right. A piece of advice that I would also give is the experiment. The beauty of digital is everything can be done on a real-time basis. You will get a lot of data and a lot of insights. Start on with personalization. Build as much relevant content as possible. Do a lot of experimentation. But have those experiments backed with a good data and take fantastic decisions on that. I would say that frequency capping is very important. Don't bombard with notifications. Don't bombard with notifications. Take them to first-party data and then re-market them. That's important. As a marketer, focus beyond hard numbers. Look at consumer journey. Look at the insights and then drop a plan. Second and important one. Don't focus on leads and downloads and all of that. Focus on LTVs. That's more important. That's one thing, guys. If you are spending, please focus on spending at least 5-10% of your budget on proper tracking mechanism. Very much important. There are tools that come at incremental cost but believe me, they'll do a world of good to you in terms of whatever you have spoken covering all parameters. That's really important because people get panicky about extra incremental cost. It's worth an investment. Perfect. Thank you so much, guys. What we'll do is throw it open to the audience. Any questions from any of the statements made here today? Do we have time for that? No, we don't. Okay, so catch us later, guys. And I think we're always around. Any questions that you might have, feel free to approach us and ask. Thank you so much. Thank you so much, guys. Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, please remain seated with us for just a moment more. Please don't exit the hall. Stay with us for just a minute more. Yes, Clyde. Okay, so here it comes, ladies and gentlemen. The iPhone winner of the first question that I asked early on when I began, please put your hands together for Manasi Salavkar. Is she here? I'm going to request Chissi Das, Head Account Management, Zaka to please join me on stage and give Manasi her iPhone tenor. Manasi. Happy. Happy or very happy? Yeah, I would be too. I would be too. Come. Chissi Das. Hello. Are you jealous and all that? Why are you not clapping? Take center stage, please. The fun quiz happening through the day here at TechMunch 2019. That's the iPhone going out there, the iPhone tenor. Thank you, Chissi, for doing the honors and congratulations, Manasi.