 Today, I'm speaking with Dan Blondell the CEO of Nano one a tech a Canadian technology company in the battery space How are you Dan? I'm great. It's wonderful to be here. Good Dan, I've heard quite a bit about your about your company and I'm I'm fascinated by the fact that you're a technology company because This is what we really need to do We we need to look downstream from raw materials. We've got it and so What I'm finding is that Canadian companies Have spent too much time and with just the raw material aspect of high technology And and they've got to go downstream the technology and you're an outstanding example of of the right way to do it I think I've heard a lot, but I'd like you to tell us about In a previous discussion you and I had you you said well, you know, I I don't want to talk too much about cathodes It's complicated. I disagree What I I what I'd like to avoid is talking about the chemistry of Making cathodes, but I certainly want to talk about cathodes What is the advantage of the processes you've developed for making? The cathode of lithium-ion batteries versus the current technologies that are widely used especially in Asia today well, so cathode manufacturing without getting into the details of the chemistry is about making sources of lithium nickel manganese cobalt iron phosphorus and combining them into a mixed metal Oxide basically, it's just a it's a ceramic powder and one of the little kernels of powder is is a composite crystal structured material that has layers of lithium and nickel and manganese and cobalt that allow you to charge and discharge just I just wanted to give your listeners a bit of context on what the cathode is What we do differently at nano one is we've developed a way to make these materials We haven't changed the formulation of the material But we have changed how we make the underlying crystals and it's the the formation of those crystals and the raw materials that we choose to put in there which help reduce the cost the number of steps We use which are far less than the number of steps industry uses in fact We eliminate middlemen and often that completely Another step of coding in here So we eliminate a precursor of taking nickel manganese and cobalt Making those before you add the lithium so we add everything together Coatings included we made a bunch of steps So there's a manufacturing advantage, but then on top of that the crystal structures that come out of our process are highly and Purified crystal structures that are less susceptible to cracking and degradation Mechanisms when you assemble them into a battery and when you cycle about it when you're charging and discharging the batteries So we're shooting to improve the longevity of those materials the durability and at the end of the day by doing that we're enabling electric vehicle manufacturers and battery producers to make a longer lasting and Bigger a longer range battery for electric vehicles. I understand that you you're you've gotten manufacturing Customers, let's say and in particular a large Chinese battery maker is is working with your technology now. Is that correct? That is correct Yes, so a pulley technology is It's a cathode producer. So actually they're also lithium producers So they have a little bit and they'll refine lithium in China and then they actually also make cathode materials They they make lithium-cold oxide and it goes into let's say Apple products and iPhone products And they are actually a supplier, you know a sub supplier to to those products and they also make lithium iron phosphate, which is the key material that goes into battery for buses industrial applications and applications like that so We are now effectively working with them to design a next-generation Manufacturing facility for the production of lithium iron phosphate and and together we're going after a large chunk of that market And and where where would that be that facility? Well, I mean ground zero for lithium iron phosphate is China right now, right? And we know that we're going to expand into India We're going to see that in emerging markets like South America and and eventually as electric buses and everything filtered into the Western world We'll see those happening as well, but by and large the manufacturing will start in China But we we have great ambitions to bring it to Canada as well there's a long history of making lithium iron phosphate in Quebec and and it's still there and We believe we can drive that cost probably in half In terms of what they do in in Quebec and we can revitalize that market and and potentially prevent stranded assets in that Note that the Chinese Buses and and vehicles of that type like urban transportation tend to use the lithium iron phosphate batteries Rather than the much more expensive types containing a lot of cobalt and and nickel and manganese and and I'm wondering Do you think there's a market in Canada or in the US for this type of battery for vehicles? It's a very good question a lot of it depends on driving habits and so in North America We tend to buy vehicles and electric vehicles or any kind of vehicle We tend to buy them for the for the worst use case So that would be working out once a year We're going to drive a real on distance or once a month We're going to go to the capital so so electric vehicles with people are tending to buy them with these large battery packs In China what we're seeing Big part of the entry-level driving market is buying $10,000 vehicles powered with LFP They go 150 kilometer range which Frank Would serve most of our needs except that we don't tend to buy cars like that no best But they are buying cars like that in China I think that kind of mentality will change as the demographics and the next generation of drivers comes up So we'll see that emerging in in certainly in North America think with with Technologies like like autonomous driving Range anxiety goes away completely because you don't own the car if someone else does and it's like getting a taxi in cases like that then the Industrial efficiency of lithium-ion phosphate. It's the safest the least likes you catch fire It's the longest lasting it's the best total cost of ownership and basically the security of supply is relatively high because Iron and phosphorus are abundantly available around the world So I think that those LFP has a very very strong future in as the whole electric mobility Theme takes it off and rolls out Across the world. I think you're absolutely right and what I've noticed is that as the Bus market has opened up here to two electric buses in California in particular They're all lithium-ion phosphate and we're not hearing anything about that because it doesn't fit the narrative of the car guys They don't want to talk about that. Well, yeah, it doesn't fit the narrative of the car guys and frankly, you know Long-range luxury electric vehicles are it's a big market right now and and all that's going to nmc And we have some very very active work in that including our folks wagon and and our whole single crystal technology That I mentioned before is a big part of that But lithium-ion phosphate to come back to it is the safest materials You know, it doesn't go into thermal running way to well over 600 degrees if you're gonna put a battery in a bus You want to make sure that it's gonna be extremely safe And I think that's one of the overriding mechanisms. The other thing is you can get 10,000 cycles out of it And so those batteries you put them in the bus You're gonna fully deplete them every day and you're gonna and you're gonna charge them back up It's gonna last, you know, five eight years Before it gets replaced and that simply won't work with the cobalt-based materials They just don't have that coming a longevity yet We're working on improving that But it's nothing commercially up there Okay, I think you're on I really think you're on the right track and I've always wondered why There's so much chatter about the long-range batteries which are expensive And don't have the cycle life Uh as a as against lithium iron phosphate, which I think the Chinese have proved is a very good technology Since they've made so many vehicles with them And it's interesting one thing you said that that struck me We we are addicted in the United States of you know, I think I'll go to Chicago this weekend That's quite a drive and we certainly don't want to run out of fuel but in fact Urban driving is what we mostly do and that is really short range So I do think that the the people's car the car that the average person's if they're going to drive themselves Is is can use a lithium iron phosphate battery don't have to worry about long range and I think you're absolutely right about autonomous vehicles and and The over lift the phenomenon because those cars Can be charged anytime. They're not they're not in actual use because they'll they'll be at central station They go out from there to pick you up when you call and so they'll be charging all the time And what holds back that phenomenon in the intensive cars is that the cycle life You don't want to waste the cycle life charging it all the time but the lithium iron phosphate lends itself like Just like a cell phone you keep it plugged in all the time What difference does it make and I think I think that's the real future Of electric transportation at least in north america. So I think you're on the right track Yeah, I think the long-distance driving thing is a challenge in north america because because we don't we're not able to put the Sort of high-speed train network like china Right, right, you know that just shaves off all of that long distance driving It's way nicer to get on a train and go those distances would be to drive it And you know, unfortunately, we're just saddled with a lot of real estate in a way and a lot of curves You got to put in the railway tracks. So we're not going to see high-speed trains anytime soon, but And and as a result these demographics and these these challenges are going to be different from place to place So what is the blend of nmc and lfp technologies and whatever else comes next down the way down the way, but You know, we in nano one we recognize that they're that these these are Strategic imperatives and we're we're planting our foot very very firmly in both areas. We're very excited about lfp We're very bullish on it But we also believe that that there's a big room for improvement on the nmc front If you can prove the durability and the cyclability that's actually the axis that'll that'll be a big game changer I know in the last two or three weeks. We've seen announcements that Volkswagen is going to build LG is going to build for Volkswagen in georgia A battery factor to supply the new Volkswagen electric vehicle factory in tennessee the new addition And general motors just announced the last couple of days. They're building LG again is building a Battery factory in ohio and today I saw in the detroit Newspapers it must be true that general motors is is is going to build a battery factory here in the detroit In the city of detroit So i'm wondering have you Had any inquires from them from lg for example about using your Your cathode process in some of their batteries Well, of course, I can never tell anyone about the specific conversations with having with people The ones we've previously announced, but certainly we already have we have a partnership with Volkswagen And and we and we have a partnership with another major A global automotive oem that's undisclosed at this point Okay, we are pretty much talking to the top four out of five global automotive oems the top producers And I didn't I didn't mean to limit you to LFB. I know you're looking at That's almost strictly nmc. So those those are nmc conversations. Okay, and the reason That people are talking to us is because these by making these single crystals these very crystalline powders that we make that are less susceptible to the to degradation In the assembly of the battery and in the cycling of the matter We can make them longer lasting if you make them longer lasting and the guys designing the battery packs Which would be your bw's and the gm's of the world They are not as constrained and if they're not as constrained that means they can actually squeeze more Squeeze more capacity out of the battery and thereby get more range out of exactly the same amount of materials And that's really the holy grail if you can improve the durability You can then actually squeeze more range out of the same amount of materials And then we're not just improving the cathode all of a sudden We're getting more out of the anode and the copper and the aluminum foil and the electrolyte and everything else in the battery And then there's tremendous value that we can bring to the table I have a feeling that if general motors isn't talking to you, they will be soon They announced today that the escalate the largest vehicle they made which is basically a bus for human for human beings Is going to be electric in 2023 they're introduced. It'll be the first catalytic electric vehicle to introduce A gigantic escalate Anybody's going to move that three three tons of stuff around it's going to be a very sturdy Long-life battery. So I'm hoping your phone is ringing from them Dan thank you very much for this very enlightening talk And I I look forward to hearing from you as as your company progresses. I'm I think you're a winner Thank you I appreciate your your support and your interest in the company and certainly there's way more to talk about You can feel the questions building up there. So thank you very much for your time