 Welcome to Toffy TV, now we're on the verge of another Whale Cup, we all love Whale Cups and Simon Hart, really really really loves Whale Cups, he's the author of the brand new book Whale the Motion, it's all about the 1990 Whale Cup, Italian 90 which it's a strange Whale Cup for a lot of reasons but Simon why did you decide to write this book? Well you say it's a strange Whale Cup, it's probably seen as the most influential pivotal Whale Cup by many people because of what it meant to English football I suppose ushering in a new era really in the broadest brush strokes on the back of Gaza crying I know we'll fill in the gaps as we go along but also the rule changes that followed it because it was the lowest scoring Whale Cup you know he was seen as a very negative kind of moment in football the way football was played, geopolitically it was the last Whale Cup for many of the Eastern European teams as they were because the Iron Curtain was coming down and I suppose for black Africa it was a big big deal because Cameroon, no Sub-Saharan African nation had ever won a Whale Cup game, Cameroon go along and beat Argentina in the first game the holders and reached the quarter-finals and probably should have beaten England so there's so many places where I wanted to find out what it meant you know not just in England but around the world USA their first World Cup since 1950 it's a big deal there you know because it started the process with they hosted it four years later and the MLS was set up so many places you know it had a big impact because it almost feels like when you see people that's right it's the end of the old and the beginning of the new for so many reasons like so many you've just mentioned there so you've gone out and interviewed a lot of players how many trips did you have to make and how many players did you go and see and there's about just over 100 interviews for the book 11 countries four continents so it was quite a big process sort of organising it all and then writing it up a lot of transcribing but I went to Cameroon which was I suppose the biggest trip ended up in Roger Miller's house which something I never thought I'd expect to be saying in his driveway there was a fat in the Liverpool shirt sweeping sorry to drop that one but so Cameroon was a big trip you know they were the romantics favourites of that tournament and a Benjamin Massing who sadly passed away now but he's the man who took on Kenegia famously the greatest world cup foul of all time so he was a real gentle giant he was so just some brilliant encounters like that in Italy I met a Toto Scolacci in Palermo you know he was the Italian hero and he now looks younger than he did then several hair transplants allegedly so I mean I'm just trying to what else could I tell you about Eastern Europe I went to to Russia to find out you know what a little bit about how their lives were changing I made a player called Kidya Tulin who at the time he was playing for Toulouse in France because players had just started to be allowed to leave the Soviet Union and he's getting paid $30,000 a month and he had to go to the Russian Embassy every month and give $29,000 to the ambassador because otherwise he'd have been earning more than the ambassador and the Russian state wouldn't allow that so loads of little kind of funny stories about what it was like back then so you had lots of trips and lots of good anecdotes it's as say it was we we watch football now and we we like to think we know everything about it but you know going somewhere there the first game Argentina vs Cameroon the world champions vs a country we knew nothing about and then suddenly you know they win the game and then Roger Mill explodes onto the scene and it was like that wasn't this you know he mentioned Scolacci a play that was hardly known in his own country Byddwch yn yw'r cyfnodd ac mae'r cyfrannu a'r cyfrannu. Felly yw'r tyfion o'r pethau a'r Ysgolwyr. Mae'r wyf yn ei ddweud yn oed. Mae'r ddweud yn oed. Mae'r ddweud yn oed. Mae'r ddweud yn oed yn oed. Mae'r ddweud yn oed yn oed i'n gael. Mae'r ddweud amser oherwydd mae'n cyfrannu o'r cyfrannu a'r ddweud. Rhaid oherwydd maen nhw'n anodd, rwyf yn meddwl sy'n gweithio'r anodd. Cymru yn rhywbeth yn mynd i ddweud oherwydd mae'r newydd. Mae'n gwybod o'i bwysigol. Felly yw'r gwaith. Mae'r ddim yn ystod o'r dimension a'r Argentina, ac mae'r ddwy i ddim yn enw. Mae'r berthynau sy'n ei ffrindio, oherwydd mae'n eich ddweud o'r ddweud. Felly yw'r ddweud oherwydd, mae'n bwysig o'r bwranc, Y coach, the Brazil defender drancked from the Doggie water bottle in the second round they had and he claimed immediately after the game it was spiked. So I sat down with a couple of their players and one of them a lot of coach Haya... he sort of... East Bakes he said yes but it was spiked. So there are these stories which are coming out gan y Gwyrdegor, yng Ngorth Cwyrdegor, yn ddweud y cychwyn Cwasiwn i'r gwasiwn i'r llyfr. Rwyf yn gwneud i'r Llyfr, mae'n gweithio gwneud o'r llyfr yn Cwyrdegor. Felly rydyn ni'n gwneud i'r llyfr wedi'i gweithio gwneud i'r llyfr yn y Semi Finals. Mae'r ystafell sydd wedi'u ei ddwyng ym hyn yn gweithio gwneud i'r llyfr i'r llyfr. Mae'r mae cefnio'r ddweud. Z meer, nod i driedwch a gweld i'w lliwroon. Dyna rhywbeth siŵn i chi. Nowau'r banc, rydw i'ch dweud. Rydw i'n meddwl ei ddechrau. Mae'n gwybod hwyl, chi hefyd. Mae'n meddwl ei ddechrau ffawr os y fawr. Rydw i chi'n meddwl. Rydych chi'n meddwl ISELF? Meddwl? Mae'n meddwl, fe'r fan 17 ag angen. Llywbeth wneud ychydig o ffordd. Ac mae pawb amser yn rai rhoi nod. Mae hyn yn siarad i bawb i yma, dwi'n gwheilio'n gwneud y byddio a angen o'ch ddweud o'i gwneud. Yn rhai rhoi'r ddechrau, stroll ond y gallwn y cyflog. Yr rhai roi'r d collari, mae'n gwneud o bobl ond, a gennym ni i, a roi'r ddechrau i ni i gennym ni i'w gwneud, a felly mae'n angen i ni wneud o bobl o, a mafodol â'r rai'r manfa. A mae'n wneud hynny i mordd. dyn nhw gaud i gael i'n ddiogel a'r ymddangos mewn Llanffordd. Rhyslawd roedd yna'r ddweud o'r ffordd o'r ffordd o'r ffordd i'w gweithio pwysig a'r ffordd. Rwyf yn cael ei wneud o'r ffordd i'w bwysig yma. Felly, fy wir hi'n meddwl i'r ffordd yn cael ei gweithio, a'u gweithio'n meddwl yma? Is that not a football stadium? That is something more? Rwyf i'n meddwl i'n meddwl i'n meddwl i'r gweithio'r brosu byddai. dwi ein gyf subs i fynd i wneud eich bod yma. Yn y ddechrau a ganddo'n arferwyr yn gyferwyr ym mwynhau, gallwn ystyn gwas i'r dechrau, a ben wrth gŵffig yma yw'r gwn, eu bod gan wych yn ganddo'n gwneud hefyd, a dwi yn ganddo'n ganddo ddau'n ganddo'n yw llwyll yn drefnig. Ac mae'n eich bod yn gwneud... Mae hynny sy'n gyd yn ddigon. Thoseau unrhyw oherwydd oherwydd oherwydd oherwydd oherwydd, yn ymgyrchol daid. まさが'. We found out that the box was basically obviously the mascot, but when you were saying it, the opening game, you know, Ardion Tina would against Cameroon. You can just remember it, that the header, the keeper should save it at the dam. He should save it. It goes in, and he's your ride one, ride two that they're like, like, taking out, smashing them. I'm winning, it was just like war of start, you know, Ardion Tina obviously won it in yna ymgyrch o'r blaen, ynglyn â ymgyrch ymgeiswyr, ac o'r blaen i'r llai, a'r llai yn ffodol. Felly, rydw i'n fuddo! Fe oedd yr oedd o'r blaen i mi dyma efo hynny, gan y llai'n gwybod i'r llai a'r... rydym yn gwneud ymigol yn ymgyrch, yn ymgyrch o'r sgwyfio, ac oherwydd ar y pwynt, i wneud ddweud o'r blaen i'r llai yn gwybod ar y llai. Yna yna'r 1888 a dyna'r 1888 yourau, yn ddechrau fathio'r platform a fathiau nhw'n gwneud sydd'i'n sylwg, mae'n gennym hwn o enghretau hynny, mae'n byw i hyn o'r platform, a'n fwy gyd hi fel agolol yn gyfan, a dyna'n ddo i gyda'r platform? Yes. A gwnau i'r platform hon, mae'n fydd blwyddyniaeth yn cael ei gynnwys yng Nghymru, Rwy'n meddwl i'w Bona, Cascarino, Kevin Sheeley, of course, Mick McCarthy, Kevin Moran, Colm Toibin, you know, the author, cos he was following that world cup for a... Did he write Rome? Something like that! David did Brooklyn, for example, but he gave me a different perspective on... We remember the Irish adventure, the impact they made culture was huge, half a million people turned out when they got back, and Tony Cascarino said it was a natural winner game and they woke up. But there was a big debate going on in Ireland at the time over the way they played football, cos it was Jack Charlton, Luke Warren, and Eamon Dunphy, who was the polemic figure for the Irish state broadcast, he was really slagging him off. Not like Eamon Dunphy, still at it today. So that was interesting for me to discover, cos obviously at the time I just thought Ireland, what a brilliant story, but I didn't realise this whole debate was happening. So the Irish thing was just as important for them as the England story was for us. It's funny, what you said before about the stadiums though, I felt exactly the same way, seeing the San Siro. I was checking just to put into context the idea that we're looking at something bigger than what we're used to. The highest average attendance, sorry, I've been reading what was that, the highest attendance in 1989-90 was 39,000 at Old Trafford. So suddenly you're seeing these stadiums with 60,000, 70,000 people. And there was that wow factor, it was football on a scale we didn't have, and they had all the stars of course in Italy. And of course David Platt went there as he went there. Des Walker. Of course, yes. It was an eye-opening thing in Pavarotti, and I spoke to somebody in terms of the way they influenced football. The people at ISL marketing who were behind the, I suppose, creating that whole concept for Italian games, they then went and created the Champions League concept. So there's a direct knock-on effect, so the Champions League has to have an answer. Cos Pavarotti lesson done was so successful. So it was interesting how you can find threads from one thing to another. Massively, something that you just mentioned, things like computer games. Things like, we just started to get computer games then, but if you had the logo, it didn't matter how bad that particular game was. If you've got all the official licensing off, which is a big thing coming out of that, things like that. I know we already had sticker books and stuff, but sticker books were dope. Also, this Whale Cup, the references via the Germany kit, is a direct replica. Obviously, it hasn't got the colours of the country, but it's a replica, and it's almost like... 90s has actually come back. I see this, cos the amount of students I see in Liverpool who were wearing, like now, things like that. They might actually be the same things that I was wearing, cos a lot of it's like charity stuff. But the way that we've just come out of the retro 80s thing, we're going into the 90s thing now. And I think that again, it shows the big cultural thing that it presented off that as well. As you say, I remember AC Milan had the three Dutch players, Inter Milan had the three German players, and there was all those little stories, and then when you got to that, you had Rudy Voller, and Reichard, Spitnail, and all these little stories just inside, just made it. I don't think I look back on a Whale Cup as romantically as I look back on this one. An 86 was my first one, and although I was a lot younger, an 86 had the players from Everton playing for England, and again, it was one of those ones where the comments, he was coming via phone in some of the games, and it felt very authentic, but this one was the real first one where I had the kits, and I showcased this one. England vs Ireland, Linnach had been an Everton player, Sheedy was an Everton player, there was all those little things, and I still look back at this one as my most fondest. I remember seeing, Diano was granted with the four corners, with the brickwork in each corner, and it was like, stadiums are amazing, cos that was like quite a, you've gone from the San Cero, that's a big, big stadium, to a 40,000 stadium in general, and the grounds are different in Everton, like you said, like the Scalati, you've got to move to events, it's off the back of it, and then I don't think he's got the goal yet. One more goal he scored for Italy after that. Yeah, that was, you know, the start. But actually, dad, he got six, I think, didn't he? And he was absolutely brilliant in that, and England's Jane, he obviously was, you know, struggling at the start in two draws, and then Mark Wright, dad, against E.J. putters through, he'd gone to three at the back for that game, and there's all those stories that come off the back of it, didn't he? He made sort of the proper mate, and sort of Gaza in terms of all that. You forget it, well, that was Gaza's only well cup, which is incredible. Everyone, he thought that this was going to be the launchpad for this, and obviously he went to Italy, going to Latio, you know, and everyone thought that it was going to be the launchpad for his career. It was the peak of his career, that was the sad thing. So, you mentioned Cameroon. Do you think they're the country that was most affected or most influenced by this well cup, or were there other stories out there that were just as influenced? Well, Cameroon was the biggest statement, I think, by a country, and it was a statement probably on behalf of the whole continent, because looking through the clippings, I went to the, what passes for National Archives in Yehwm, they wanted most to disturb the two women working there, from looking at their mobile phones, but they were kind of reporting what other African papers are saying, and they're all, you know, so excited. So, sadly, it didn't have a long-term positive impact there, because I went to the training ground where Thomas and Conor used to train on, and it's exactly the same. It's just red, you know, red baron pitch surrounded by kind of pretty ramshackle housing. I went to another First Division club and saw them training, and they were basically getting direct change afterwards on the trees, because there's nothing there, there's no facilities, any money goes, ends up in the wrong pockets. The next World Cup for USA 94, they had a nationwide appeal to raise funds for the team, and they raised over a million dollars, and they went missing. You know, and you hear all of these stories at every World Cup, you know, you hear about the, we're always, we're used to them, you know, the bonus rows. Thomas and Conor was there with the squad in 1902 before they flew to Japan or Korea, and they were sat and playing in Paris for, I don't know, eight hours negotiating. But you understand now why the players do it, because they're the ones who are playing, they're the professionals, they're used to the way things work in Europe, and they see that this money's being siphoned off, so sadly for Cameroon, it was a huge impact, but in terms of the good of the game there, it had no effect. It could party for the players because they gave them the stage and the platform. And you still feel like, with Cameroon, the influence is still there, but they probably, I mean, I only look at it from a commercial point of view, the likes of the kids, Puma, make a big deal of their kids, and they've used them actually in the last few years for, like, pub, you know, when they had the short sleeve shirt, which they could never use, but it was used as, it was used just as a promotional tool. There was another kit, which was like an all-in-one kit, and it was like the shades and the shorts, and they obviously knew the way to let it, but again they were used as a promotional tool, and you sometimes feel like, again, that's just another way of taking advantage of these players or that nation because we do all have this little bit of something for them because, and it all stems from Italian 90, because I bet you before Italian 90, after people wouldn't even know where Cameroon was or what it was or could name a player, and then suddenly Roger Miller becomes this player, and I still don't know how old he is, almost, isn't he? You know, he's still played obviously in 94. 92, wasn't he when it was a short shirt? I think the thing about Cameroon is, or something else about them, Howard Wilkinson did a Scouting report before England played them, and said, you know, this is effectively a buy for him. A buy, yeah. And I've mentioned this to Thomas Encarno, and he said, well, I can sort of understand this because their football was pretty unstructured. I mean, they worked on the defence, he said, but the attacking game was just off the cuff, spontaneous, so you never knew what you were going to get from them. And that's perhaps something else that's changed about football generally. Schalachio made a similar point. He said that players like me today, you don't really see it because, like, the Liverpool attack this season, brilliant, but it's three or four players quickly attacking together, isn't it, on transitions, whereas a penalty box sniffer, you know, do they actually exist today? No. Everyone's doing pressing and so on. They can't do it for formations, can they? And that's an issue. If you play two or three, you can have one who does that, and the other one will have to do other styles, but with the four, two, three, one, or the four, three, three nowadays. That's gone, that goal score. Cameroon had played as a defender as well, didn't he for that game in England? The second half, absolutely battered England. Three, what up with? Yeah, three times. Now, and absolutely battered, that were battered in England, and ultimately, that probably, the fact that they didn't take that game seriously enough probably cost England in the semi-final because players were just probably so fatigued in the semi-final going into extra time, so they took them. That scout report probably ruined it. Well, I think they've battered England in more ways than one, cos another staff wore you when they played at Argentina. The foul count was 28-9. They were big foulers, and they did it about. And, I mean, yeah, they were pretty tough, but the thing is that they were so unlucky against England. I think Owen Beac was clean through and tried to back you or something of 2-1. That one beac. The two penalties were... Yeah, one of them was definitely dodgy. And they still soar about that. I mean, Massing and Colonel Roger Millard, they've not forgotten. They think that they were robbed, basically, which was interesting to get other people's perspectives on our own kind of national footballing myths. But, I mean, England, they've never sort of had it as good because for England, on the flip side of that, England players feel like they did beaten Germany. They've got through that penalty. They would have won it. And there was that general feeling, and that's why I think, you know, when they came home, everyone, there was in a backlash. Everyone was really, really positive. And obviously it was Gaza main year and Platt got his move to Italy off the back of it. And a lot of players did very, very well out of that. But it was the same old story, but obviously it would have been very interesting if Chris Waddle had put that one about four inches into that below. But somehow, Chris Waddle, I didn't know, Chris Waddle said he'd never taken a penalty before. Well, surely in professional football, he'd never taken a penalty before. And you think, Chris Waddle, when he strikes me as a player, he was a greif footballer. For never to take a penalty, that seems very, very strange. Yeah. Well, Gaza was meant to, Gaza was down to take a penalty. Obviously. Cred off. Yeah. Which is all, that's always the thing, isn't it? Diolch. We were unlucky in that game as well. You know, we had the goal. Andrews Brayme's goal, the flex, the loop's over, the keeper doesn't it. Lenichas' goal was brilliant, so I ran a style and walked it in. But Waddle hit the bar, didn't he? Yeah. Well, and we had chances. He had the post. It was just so frustrating because we had them. That was a classic case as well of a team building as the tournament was on. Because England were terrible in the group stages. I mean, Dru with Ireland, one of the... Was it Milnil with Egypt, was it? No, we beat Egypt. Sorry, yeah. Mark Wright's goal, didn't he? Mark Wright's goal. There was another game, it was one of the ways. Diolch. Yeah. Yeah, it was an absolutely terrible game. Terrible, yeah. Terrible game, and then obviously the group was the game went on. Well, the Belgian player's face after he's won that one in with Lenichas and that, you know. Well, I think Pete Davis mentioned this to me because Pete Davis, who were all played out, still the best World Cup book of all time. Don't say that. But Pete, you know, it's brilliant, kind of on the ground to counter that World Cup. He said that, forget the fact that it was the lowest score on World Cup and, you know, negative football in terms of drama and the storylines. I mean, in England, a case in point here, because Belgium, the way they beat them in extra time with that goal, they had them won in extra time games since Geoff Hearst in 1966. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then to win another one in extra time, they come from behind. So they did two of the most exciting England games in our living memory. I mean, I can't think of too many more, really. So that's why, and then on top of that, you have our first ever penalty shoot-out. So you've suddenly got these three epic games. So forget the quality, you know. To be honest, football is not a game where you ship a lot of the times, where you ship back and go. It wasn't a fantastic performance. It's a football or mokesport. It's about drama. It's about what you remember afterwards. You don't sit there going, well, that Belgium was actually really, really terrible when England scored luckily in the last minute. You think, platt and linear face as he falls onto the pile and you think about things like that. You know, you think about all those little things. Again, that's why it was such a well cup. But you were saying about, it was the last well cup of the Eastern Block, essentially. A lot was starting to fall. But, you know, West Germany, essentially that won the well cup and then straight after the big home, Germany. So, I mean, what are the stories that have come out of that? Because I'm sure there must be lots. Yeah, I mean, I'm just checking the back here. I mean, the... I and Curtin had begun to fall the previous October, November, December. So, you had to check the revolution or the other revolution in the November. Then in the December, Ceausescu went in Romania. The Romanians were... I went down to the... They stayed in the hotel in Cardiff. Most of that team, Champions League final before last, for a reunion. Could they have beaten Wales in Cardiff, if you remember, in a qualifier for USA 94? By a big mess. By a big mess. By a big ball in the bar, yeah? The penalty. So, they had this get together and I went down there and they were all reminiscing about just how their lives were just changed incredibly in the space of those six months post Ceausescu. Because they would have been playing for obviously state-run teams, whether it be the army or the railway or whatever. So, this is for the younger watchers, by the way. Yeah, they would have been playing for obviously... And those teams were... In the 80s, I mean, those teams were amazing. Because they had all of the resources of their governments. So, they had anything they wanted. So, obviously, it was a big thing. Fascinating, could they... I mean, it's a real sense of of something being lost for them. Because, I mean, as you say, Stau Bucharest have been in two European Cup finals between 86 and 90. I believe there's a big flag that someone flies with that. So, we're always reminded. And Dino Bucharest were in, I think, UEFA Cup semis in 1990. And Dino Bucharest had the most players of any club in that World Cup. Unthinkable now for the remaining club. So, they produced footballers and they produced good footballers. Their hotel... I mean, they laugh about it now, but they lost to Ireland on penalties and they think that if it had actually been focused on football, how far could we have gone? The hotel was basically a magnet for agents, presidents of clubs. I spoke to Radu Cioiu, who played for Westamford. He shared a room with Lepescu who was recently UEFA's technical director. And they'd have two representatives from clubs. One would be on his bed talking to... and the leg. The other would be talking to a club in Italy. And they were negotiating today before these big World Cup games. And they got their moves, but looking back now, they think they've lost something. The same with Russia, because, you know, the Soviet Union were a force in football. In 88, they'd been to the European Championship Final with Lovanovski's team. But by 90, it was the first time there was no CCP on the streets. They had a sponsor and sponsored leads to a rower of bonuses. So suddenly that collective, we're all in this together for Mother Russia, that was gone. And they were... Are we going to get our moves? Are we going to Italy? So they really... I find it fascinating that part of the book. In Yugoslavia as well, of course. I was going to say as well, you had with the break-up of the Soviet Union that you had players starting to play for other countries as well. Russia wasn't their country. So you had a lot to deal with as well. They didn't even have a proper flag. You know, so you can imagine, you know, and then someone's like, well, I can get you to move to it. You know, do you like it here? Cos you can stay if you want. So I can imagine that. I mean, look at that. The main names, you know, the players, like Georgi Hati, Elidymus Rescu, Pescu, and that's joy and all of these that you've got them through. And you're like, oh, stay with fantastic. And nobody's replaced those... I think communism, you know, whatever the good and bad of it, the one obvious merit was, there was a sposing structure there for everybody. And nobody's replaced that. A few gangsters have taken the clubs. The resilience have replaced the players. I mean, it does sound stupid, but under that, you had these sporting teams, at least that where money was getting put into it. I mean, really, the money should have been probably put elsewhere, like into buying people food and stuff. But what I can imagine for a player, they were very disciplined and they knew what they were doing. And then suddenly it was a free market and a free for all. And I imagine just essentially being given whatever you wanted would be a big problem, because a lot of those players, like players you've just been speaking of, how many of those players like went to... got like Premier League moves and then played like three or four games and you never seen them again because it was probably just the pure indulgence of what they were given that they weren't used to it and probably didn't know how to go with it. You mentioned Yugoslavia, which was obviously another one that was just about a fall. Yeah, I mean, I went to the Super Cup last summer in Skopje and I met Dr Panchef, who, you know, a year after that Italian IT, he scored the winning penalty in the European Cup finals, which was the last time that an Eastern European country, you know, has won that European Cup or maybe was the only one. Is that Red Star? Yeah. And he's convinced that they would have won a major. They would have won a major trophy, you know, be it in Euro 92 when they, at the last minute, they, you know, they're marketing it. Or then USA 94. And of course, the Croatians look on it differently because they, you know, they're pretty nationalistic and that really pushed them on in France 1998 because Jani played in Italian 90 as a young kid and then by 98, you know, he's Robert Jani. But there was a real... They had a brilliant league as well. You know, they had a league, you know, the two Belgrade clubs, Hayuk's split, Dynamo's like Red. And it was probably one of the five or six best leagues in Euro. So they really, they really have this, you got nostalgia, whatever they call it, which is understandable. I suppose they were insulated when they were playing proper teams as well because obviously everybody had a funding source. So they were equal, which I suppose was what their whole thing was supposed to be about anyway. So that produced better plays. Everyone got better things. Obviously, I don't know. I can't... Do you think they lost to Argentina on penalties after the goal he's had, his league? But, you know, Dammit Field in extra time, Stojkovic, Cevichevic, and the names go on. You helped me. Stojkovic, Cevichevic, and Prozenecki. Oh, Prozenecki. Do you think it would feel with those three players? The Prozenecki went play for Croatia, didn't he? Who said you can't play with three number 10s? The very, very good number 10s. Very good move. I mean another thing about it is it was the last work up before the introduction of the Champions League. You know, you mentioned before the anthems and all the PRs around it. I mean, that was another important thing, wasn't it? All those almost gimmicks that were put into Euro 90 spread out and then everybody sort of realised this is the football we want to see. English football had been away and everyone was starting... Well, people had tried away from it, crumbling grounds and off the hills. They almost introduced a fresh start. This is what we wanted to look like with the Champions League, with the Premier League. It's funny because what came out in 90s almost pushed into national football down the Pekinode now. Everything's about Champions League, everything's about the Premier League and it's sort of... It's eating itself from that well cup. I mean, I was at the England media day yesterday and I asked Harry Kane this question. You know, you're of a generation where it seems the Champions League's everything. And he said, no, but for me the World Cup is still the big thing. And I was surprised by that and I don't know if that's the case for every player. I'm not really not sure. I'm sure they get excited when it comes along, but... But it's... It's just some... I'm obviously of a generation where you do think some things were better then. What's interesting about English football is the tendencies were climbing from 86 to four years of climbing to football league before 90. That's because we couldn't get to see it on anyway. It's never like that, but Italy 90 was... I did another layer of that. I gave it extra impetus and I think I'm sure for advertisers and sponsors they thought here's a product which is actually quite palatable now to people because English clubs, I think within six days at the end of Italy 90 they opened the doors again to Europe for pro clubs. So, yeah. I guess that's why we think of it as a catalyst. Obviously stadiums were changing. The seats were coming in. The stand-in was going. Did Monster encourage more families back in and come back and watch football and we'd seen this football festival that had been on. So we've reignited almost everybody's... Not people who were there and everybody. We don't really... the hardcore would go anyway. But we've reignited people who'd maybe moved away from it and it was the hooliganism element to dive down a bit and it was, you know, we'll make it safe for you to come back and that's where the attendants have gone in. Once it becomes Premier League and Champions League and it's televised everywhere then, the boom takes place then, doesn't it? And it's marketed in a way that it's more than just football which you have been to 1990 and then become a spectacle and you've had cheerleaders everything else that came off the back of it. So it is pivotal. I suppose the irony is the biggest losers out of all of it are Italy. They're the biggest losers of it because they lost all the players because of it. They're still essentially playing in a lot of the stadiums that they're playing in now and very little's been done to it. So it's funny that the country that gave us this World Cup and gave us, you know, almost just reintroduced the love of the game, I think, back to the world and show what it could be if you presented it in the right way as dropped down the pechon or the Sunwap because of it. I spoke to a burgamy, you know, the captain of that team and he's really, I mean, in his office in his home, he's got it on the wall, he's got his 982 shirt but there's no 1990 shirt because he's still really sore about that and he does feel that it was a missed opportunity. Not just because on the pitch, as he said, big country's won the World Cups back then. But he also set off the pitch because maybe it came just at the wrong time for them because they did their stadiums but they did them just before the way the stadium was meant to be done. So they were doing it. No cantilever and all those kind. A bit like Everton's main stand list. I guess another problem was because the municipal concerns those stadiums. So like insuring, we'll have a running track because then we can use it, you know, multi-purpose. So they got it wrong and he played at the San Sera every week and he complained about the fact he hates the added tier because George, it looks superb but to them, it meant that the pitch was rubbish. He said it used to spell have damped the pitch. Now of course with, you know, the hybrid pitchers is different but they really feel that they missed an opportunity in Rome. For example, a couple of stations were built which became for these phantom stations near the Stadio Olimpico but they were used for 30 days and that was it. So they think we wasted loads of money. We built stadiums like in Bari where down under foot of Italy 50,000, 60,000 capacity and they get about 15,000. So it was just... It doesn't help the thing. Sometimes things fall into place and they just fell wrong for Italy I think that that year and henceforth. It is mad the well cup, the impact it can have and it can't. I mean, South Africa for argument say a lot of those stadiums are in use and they were built, they were fantastic in the well cup but the grass isn't enough but I know one uses them and they were talking about the next well cup, Russia saying that they've moved a lot of the stadiums away from the clubs so the clubs have got to travel 40 miles and they're playing in stadiums that are old 5 and 6,000 and getting that attention to then go and play in it. 5,000 see the stadiums miles away and people are looking at it saying the most wheel gets 5,000 and we've got to drive 40 miles away and that's the legacy and you're going why is it awarded to these countries put it in where there's already an infrastructure but I suppose that FIFA is taking football to the world isn't it? Allegedly that's what it's saying although England have never had it only had it once. I think obviously Qatar would be in the one after but shit that's going to be going one way there's a lot of talk of having stadiums that are going to be like you're going to be able to pack them up and take them somewhere else so maybe that's the answer for the future but any other thoughts that you want to add to this any good stories about Italian 90? Any interest in travel I mean you mentioned Cameroon what was your favourite most interesting travel favourite place to go? I mean Argentina was pretty good because I met Bilardo who was the coach of that team and had been told by a couple of players that he's been mad he's now in his late 70s and he's got a radio show every night so I met him at midnight after his show and I mean you ask him a question and ten minutes later he's kind of meandered here there and everywhere his studiantes days when he was the hard man of that team which beat Man United in the Intercontinental Cup and basically it had a brawl at Old Trafford but Bilardo was a bit mad to some of the stuff they used to do but apart from you mentioned the bottle before I mean he had married on his wedding he didn't trust the official stats about players heights so he got one of his defenders Ruggeri to dance with Bilardo's wife his wife next to Careca because he wanted to know how tall Careca was and then of course about nine months later they play Brazil in the World Cup and Ruggeri man marks Careca so just the fact that he was so he was obsessed and these details and just the dirty tricks and they got up to it I found that fascinating because they were the bad guys of the World Cup but then to hear from their perspective and one thing which was quite kind of wistful almost they a lot of coach and coach of the goalie they both made the point that that team was much more loved by the Argentinian public than the Argentina team who went to the final and lost to Germany 1-0 four years ago because those players grew up in Argentina and the people could identify with them whereas now they just straight away they're off they're off to Europe so I think that there is a sense I know we probably have it because we're getting on a bit but among that generation of players too they feel that with the globalization of the game some of those connections have been lost they don't even feel like messes their own due to their time some people don't anyway and it's funny because just thinking back there as well one of the quakes there was playing the semi-final against Argentina but it was in Napoli so half the squad was split half the crowd was split because they obviously Italian but they wanted Manadona to do well so just finally obviously it's called Well The Motion you mentioned the song at all because the song was a huge thing it was a huge part of it because it was like we'd obviously had loads of cheesy songs but this was the first like it was like cool it was cool to like this song apart from jobbands but it was actually a really cool song I don't know if I remember that because I don't know because he sings it every opportunity so was that mentioned in the book? I spoke to Peter Hook who was the bass player about the whole process of recording it I mean that's a brilliant story he tells superbly of course but it was almost half written the rap when they went into the studio Craig Johnson had come along because he'd been involved in the Anfield rap and he was basically writing lines and feeding them as they went along and all of the players six of them were turned up that day and they all had to go with the rap including Peter Bursley you've got to hold on tight and get round the back if that had been the B side I think it would have been but obviously John Bond's won the competition quite easily you imagine but it was funny hearing about that they obviously applied them all the drink it was a bit of a mad day I think in the studio so the making of World Emotion I think is a great story in itself but yeah brilliant song and is there only ever number one for anyone? One story that came out of that as well is they got offered five grand up front I think it was or back end royalties and they took the five grand and if they took the back end royalties they'd probably have been millionaires because only them turned up so what a day now what a day now big thanks for Simon for coming in World Emotion if you're excited about the World Cup as we are and if you are excited by Italian 90 or you just love fascinating stories about the World Cup and football in general Simon also the brilliance here we go Everton Book again that's a brilliant collection of Everton stories go on get both books you know you know what I mean he's got a sort of these long trips have you any ideas for your next book? I think I need a rest we'll leave it there Llywgwm ffordd o'r Welco yeah I'm going to Volgograd for a couple of games so obviously Gilfries Sigurdsons Iceland at the front make sure you check out the book World Emotion thanks for watching Toffy TV www.toffy.com