 Welcome to the third in the series of CURF seminars. Before we begin, I'd like to acknowledge the traditional owners. In the spirit of reconciliation, the Australian National University recognizes that it is situated on country for which the Nambry and Unwall people have been custodians for many centuries and did many millennia. And on which they have performed age-old ceremonies of celebration, initiation and renewal. We acknowledge their living culture and unique role in the life of this region and offer our deep appreciation for their contribution to and support of our academic enterprise. So as I mentioned, this is the third in our series of CURF seminars, and this one wins the award, I think, for the best title so far. I think it should be a menu for a sustainable regional future menu. I'm very pleased to introduce my colleague, Professor Barbara Norman from the University of Canberra, who will be giving the seminar tonight. Professor Norman is the Foundation Chair and Head of Discipline in Urban and Regional Planning at UC. She is Life Fellow and Past National President of the Planning Institute of Australia, a member of National Coast and Climate Change Council, the Regional Development Australia Fund Advisory Panel, the National Stakeholder Advisory Group to the CSRO Climate Adaptation flagship, and also Deputy Chair, Regional Development Australia ACT. Professor Norman is also Co-Director of Canberra Urban and Regional Futures, CURF, which is sponsoring this seminar, and she's an adjunct professor with us here at the Australian National University. She has extensive experience in the public sector at all levels of government, including senior executive roles in the ACT government. Professor Norman advises the public and private sector in Australia and has strong international linkages with Asia, Europe and the USA. Her research interests include coastal planning, of course that's been in the news lately, particularly in the Australian, if you've read some of their pieces on that. Sustainable cities, urban and regional planning, climate change adaptation and urban governance. She was awarded an Australian Centenary Medal for her contribution to the community through urban and regional planning. So I think there's no one better positioned to give a selection on a sustainable regional future. So over to you, Vaughan. Thank you very much, Will, and may I acknowledge Will as Co-Director of CURF for being such a pleasant and enjoyable Co-Director with CURF. It's our third lecture tonight and the attendance is terrific, so I think both will for Co-Director and its future. So there's quite a lot of ground to cover tonight and some of my students are here tonight and I think they may have to enact revenge because I just assessed them this afternoon on timing of their presentations. So if I go over time, I think they may be giving me a mark as well. Thank you also, Tanya and you, for hosting this and for all of you coming out on a actually quite warm all this night, which is a refreshing change. So CURF and CURF, I like the title too. CURF and CURF, obviously CURF Coastal Planning, if you think about our region from Cosiosco to the coast. That's about Coastal Planning, which is a particular expertise of mine. CURF, the hinterland and CURF Canberra Urban Regional Futures is very much about joining the dots between the Canberra, our national capital, our hinterland and our coast with a regional focus. I will come back to Canberra towards the end. I'll actually be starting with the national level. So the outline of this talk tonight, firstly to look at the national policy framework, as I said in the flyer that went out. If you are remotely interested in the 2011 federal budget, there was a new national level policy that was stated there for the first time in many years. Very much probably I would argue the first time, particularly recognising climate change in this form since Federation. Certainly there was the Whitlam years, there was Brian Howes years with the Department of Housing and Regional Development. Keating put his toe in briefly and then lost office. And then there's been the re-emergence quite recently. Also in the federal budget there was regional policy back on the agenda in a different form under Simon Kreen and climate change and emerging climate change policy under the Minister of Combat. Then I'll be looking at some of the regional responses and local actions, some of the challenges and opportunities for the Canberra region, the current and future contribution of CURF. And I will be arguing through this, I hope, reasonably well, but you could challenge me and I love questions so let's get to that at the end about I think the need and the timeliness now for a regional spatial plan for the Canberra region. So a national urban policy. I guess some of you would be familiar with this context. I know there's some planners here tonight. Others would think why on earth is the Commonwealth involved in national urban policy? Often people come across urban planning when their neighbour's doing an extension or something's happening in their neighbourhoods and sometimes it's not a very happy experience. But in fact what we're looking at here is a much larger picture. This country is growing in population. It's growing in terms of coverage by urban development. Cities are expanding. And so the argument here is this country now is at a point where national urban policy is of national interest and that's been reflected in the budget this year. Up here is a diagram that's taken from the national urban policy statements courtesy of the major cities unit. Daughter Equin heads that up and was coming tonight until just a little while ago and couldn't due to a family issue but has been very supportive in preparing this presentation, supportive to need. Here you see a context. The diagram, my only comment is that they've taken what I think is a fairly old fashioned diagram or triple bottom line which often people still use today but I think takes us to possibly the lowest common denominator of trade-offs. I hope we're transitioning to the other diagram you could see there which is effectively arguing or essentially arguing no environment, no society, no society, no economy. In other words, the economy is not a function of itself. Society is not a function of itself, well-dependent on the planet. I think that's a much clearer way of looking at things that certainly clarifies my thinking and I hope we're heading towards that direction. The positive thing about this diagram is for the first time that I can remember we're actually starting at a national level to link sustainable population policy with national level policy with regional policy and I think that's a very big step forward. Just a little bit more detail on the national level policy I think the other big step forward is the criteria that you can see particularly down the column on your right. Many of those terms you will have seen before in terms of our national policy but there's a couple there that you would not have seen before I suspect. Adaptability, possibly in climate policy but not in urban policy and resilience. Again in others domains, possibly in social policy but not in urban policy. So I think again that's a big step forward. Integration, engagement, value for money of course, Treasury has it say and efficiency. But I think what's happening here is it's starting to be triple bottom line. The basics for the national level policy framework are there but it's only the beginning because when you look at the national level policy statement it's not really a criticism, I support what they've done but there's not a lot much more than what you see up on that diagram now. So I hope that the building blocks put more in place in next year's budget. Parallel to this and I acknowledge Tony Carmichael here tonight as First Assistant Secretary of the Department of Regional Australia Regional Development and Local Government. Parallel with this has been the policy development of the Simon Karina's Minister for Regional Australia. Now anyone who knows Simon's background, regional is almost synonymous with his name. So not partisan politics, it's just something that he's been involved in for a very long time. And so he's taken up this agenda with gusto and seems to be a kind of reborn minister out there at the moment with speeches around regional policy. The big step forward here that I observe and there are pluses and minuses but I'll say the positive is first is that it is at least consciously triple bottom line. If you go back to regional policy over the last, since the 1970s it's had a very strong regional development focus and then it started to have a social focus on the blind how and now it has a triple bottom line focus with the environmental agenda because if you've been to any recent forums you actually see now two ministers coming together around carbon pricing at the regional level with that but it's kind of a fairly good comment. So we are starting to get some of those issues joining those dots. I'm reluctant to use that phrase in a way because I suggested it to the department and now every time the minister speaks that's what he says is join the dots on some commonwealth bureaucrats. I think what I'll mention here before. Climate change. So I'm not going through a dissertation on every policy but I'm just giving you a snapshot of each of these main streams right now. Climate change. Well you have to have had your head under a pillow if you haven't heard about this issue recently and obviously Will Stafford here has played a lead role in this. The carbon price package clearly out there for debate and discussion. The climate commission which is the panel of scientists out there to share knowledge and capacity building in many ways with the community around climate change. The Coastal Climate Change Council which I'm a member of and we're having our own issues around sea level rise and I was quoted in that article in the Australian in the weekend where a scientist has come out said the sea level is actually going down so this started some debates and climate change which I don't agree with by the way is the Climate Change Adaptation Program which really recognises what the scientists say that we are past the tipping point at this point so as planners which is my profession we need to start planning for climate change now. Two reports that you see up there the critical decade of the two most recent reports that I can see and also the supplementary report around risk. Now you might see debates amongst the shock jocks in the media right now but behind the scenes let me tell you there's very serious work going on around the risks to do with climate change and particularly to do with coastal inundation and sea level rise and at the federal level it's around national critical infrastructure and so often we hear around debates about housing but in many ways I think that's possibly one of the easiest issues we can deal with over time. Some of the most difficult issues are the lumpy bits of infrastructure out there like major airports how do we plan for those? How do we deal with Sydney Airport? How do we deal with Cairns Hospital that's less than one meter above sea level? Those critical social physical infrastructure that's have 50, 60, 100 year lifespan that's what we should be conserving in my view today. So planning for extreme weather events well we have had our fair share haven't we and today I think the interim report on the Brisbane floods came down this afternoon many recommendations and the Premier of Queensland immediately accepted all of them as you could have imagined you would have. Planning for extreme weather well being a coastal planet primarily I often talk about sea level rise but bushfires in Victoria I was living in Victoria at the time absolutely dramatic the buckling of the railway lines during that period of time so infrastructure and then what do we do with places like the Gold Coast? And you can see and the interesting thing I think about this mix of slides here is this by the Insurance Council of Australia now again the debate might be out there in the media around climate change but just like the Federal Government behind the scenes the insurance industry who have lost a lot of money in this last year are very very focused on this. So how do you step back we talk about coastal retreat how do we step back the Gold Coast and if you know anything about what's there with the Gold Coast there's a whole lot of water behind those buildings and as I discussed with my students also the ability to adapt varies and you can almost class if you look at the demographics of the Gold Coast now you can almost class that as a vertical retirement village so the capacity to adapt and respond to an emergency varies and we need to be conscious of that. So planning for climate change now I'm not a photographer though increasingly with my iPhone I'm becoming very interested in it and I burden all my friends with my photos but they're very polite about it so this is a photo of Byron Bay now this is I would and I have to be careful because this is in court and the very wealthy land known as involved and they are not adverse to suing people making public comment on this issue so I'll choose my words carefully let's pretend this is somewhere else maybe and landowners landowners have taken the lorry to their own hands now really you know is that a good solution for Australia our entire coastline is that a good solution and New South Wales in response to this prepared some legislation and on the front of the legislation which has now been put aside I think sensibly for more discussion is sandbags the notion of this New South Wales legislation is every land known it gets a set of sandbags and there's a storage area in the local park no matter if you're 80 years old you know I mean it's just crazy so I think that we have to be working very quickly and very effectively right now again about how we manage our coastline in the context of extreme weather and climate change the other photo here is being taken by my David Tatnall who is a photographer and I think it tells me a lot anyway that at the local level again while all these discussions going on in the media at the local level people are making decisions pragmatic decisions and here we've got an example where just you know pragmatically should I build this rebuild this walkway this jetty one meter high now in case there is sea level otherwise or should I not well clearly this person has made a pragmatic decision and said well the marginal cost of doing that right now as Stern has argued as Rosgill has argued is minimal compared to having to replace that down the track so we're beginning to see local people taking action around infrastructure on the ground and I find that more informing in many ways than many of the articles I mean so the cover price package I won't go through this but you know about it you've seen it on the ads it's there but I think the 330 million I'm quite interested in the low carbon communities and I'll be very interested in how that's panned out not Higatoni and others particularly but I think that's an opportunity and I hope that phone grows social considerations around this and still we're at the national level and we'll drop down to the regional level soon surely I think we're only just beginning to have this conversation I know there's some good research happening through the national climate change adaptation facility I know that there's some good discussion happening in the community about these issues and I'm sure the climate commission and their forums community forums have been exposed to some of these issues but social equity is a really important consideration and when we're linking I hope I'm doing in this talk regional developments with climate change with national urban policy social equity considerations I think is one of those things one of those glues that joins the dots I think that social equity considerations the ability for people to be able to come through these large and significant changes in other words that idea about resilience is something we should be focusing on I mentioned adaptive capacity and variable and in all the extreme weather events we've had recently we've seen evidence of that human behaviour now grand peerman who many of you would know was a lead excitist still is a lead excitist but he's decided to talk to a psychologist instead now because he thinks that's possibly where the answer is I mean it's our behaviour that's causing these things our behaviour so I had a great illustration of this when I was at the national seed change conference discussion in baron bay last year there was a tsunami warning so what was the response everybody went to the coast what an insane response everybody went to the coast so I just again was very illustrative to me that we have a long way to go still in terms of behaviour so if it had been real it would have been very serious so human behaviour and an argument that I've been not very successfully yet but I'm going to continue to argue at the very least in this country we should be mapping where existing urban settlements is where our future urban growth areas are with our climate risk we haven't done it so we cannot yet identify where those areas are at most risk where are the most people living for example put simply and where is the highest risk and where do they intersect surely that might be a good beginning to the place to be starting investigations so I responded to extreme weather and climate change developing new pathways some of this language you see it comes in and out of folk I know but I think it's probably a good way I find it a good way to think about things I think there's some shared learnings coming out right now the Royal Commission to the Victorian bush fires the floods in Brisbane some whack that I've been involved in and others around cities and climate change and now the OECD looking at green growth and the notion of investing in the environment as a driver of future of the economy is actually a sensible thing to be talking about which is of course partly what covered my things again so let's bring all this back to home how do we are we connecting the dots or not making the camera now it's always easy to give these speeches overseas or interstate it's always hard to give it so this is a challenge as the one of the reporters asking yesterday ACT set the breach border that was on the front page I think just a few days ago proposed development on the edge at the same time Kuba Manara Express one hour down the road trying to retain its population accepting grants of $7,000 from the New South Wales government to try and retain its population now there is a railway that goes between the ACT Canberra and Kuma which we've closed does that make sense now I lived in Victoria during the last 10 years I was in Canberra went to Victoria for 10 years came back but anyway that's another story I saw the transformation in Victoria vesting in railways productivity in that economic return in that the regional growth in Ballarat Bendigo, La Trobe, Geelong absolutely fantastic transformation we haven't even started to have that discussion here and I will be arguing that tonight that's an example of why we need a regional spatial plan we don't even have an integrated transport plan for this region for freight, for public transport for passengers we are about to celebrate our 100th birthday what are we doing, we can do better so what can we learn from elsewhere in trying to do better innovative regional responses I've put some examples up here because I thought it was incumbent on me to do that the first one is Geelong 21 I still think that's probably the best example in the country some of my colleagues in regional Australia and others smiled the other day when one of them said I was a bit old that's old Barbara, we've moved on since then if I had any idea of how difficult it was for that community to get that together the reason why I argued Geelong 21 and I encourage you to look it up on the web the reason I argue it's probably still the best example in the country is it started from a meeting just like this started from a meeting of a mixture of community academic research politicians and business who said the issues that we are dealing with today transcend local government boundaries the issues we are dealing with today like transport housing affordability climate change and regional development sustainable regional development or green growth if you like to call it transcend local boundary why don't we actually work together they argued and so what they did the state government said don't be ridiculous and go away they weren't interested but they just kept going and they built it up and now it's a very very strong robust I think excellent example of a regional spatial plan and has now been adopted by the state government from the bottom up and I think it has great strength the next one is the Sydney coastal councils around coasts and climate change I won't go through them all because of time the next one is the southeast region started off as the western port green house alliance and now it's the southeast melbourne climate change alliance again these are voluntary groupings and this is my main point voluntary groupings of local governments that have come together there's nothing to do with top down voluntarily coming together now local government never comes together voluntary but this is what we're seeing right around the country and I've taken examples right around the country so the next example is in part or south of part from mandra to aspirants nine councils have come together very recently the most recent example of this coalition to work together on issues of mutual interest and then finally the 55 regional development they have been established by the federal government and just just produced each of them produced a regional plan so there's some examples of leading practice and examples that we can look at for this region so how are we going so I thought I'd go back to the Y plan actually really enjoyed putting this thought together I'd be really trying to 1967 to 2011 so I went back to the Y plan and I thought did they take a regional approach or did they actually look those people when it was a national capital run by the national government and yes they did well at least they looked over the border now if you move to the next diagram this is not a criticism to chief minister I've got my two representatives here who I acknowledge it's just the way it's depicted and you could be excused for thinking sea level rise has taken on new dimensions all the way to the national capital run but this is the capital works program and is there any recognition that there's something over the border none I know it's not ACT's responsibility on the jurisdiction but I really would encourage somehow for next year both sides because I'm sure if I went to the New South Wales government diagram there'd be a hole in the middle called ACT so I think what we need to do is start to at least I mentioned transport before wouldn't it be helpful if we at least had an integrated capital works program for the ACT for the capital region from Cosiosto to the coast even if we just mapped that at the beginning we'd have some basic fundamentals to work on in terms of our future so that I had a look at the regional news that was great fun so this was last week and I found it really interesting because in all my experience and my work and my research the issues that I've come up with are transport housing, climate change and what's there transport, climate change housing same in the regional news so there is actually some correlation which I found quite heartening and of course indigenous which I haven't mentioned and especially on the coastal environment we have a great deal of work to do there so regional news so the region so the community is interested in these issues is my point not just academics, not just business not just politicians but the community is interested and that's right round the region that I've taken those examples so what's happening in the region now I've talked about climate change and transport issues I think there's actually a more serious issue and this is where I think we can do better I was at Euribidala very recently with my students on the coastal planning course a couple of them here tonight and Euribidala made a presentation to the students and a very good presentation and really made the point that yes the national capital is there yes we're part of this region but there's a huge social economic disparity between what's happening in our parts of our region and what's happening in the national capital we talk about a patchwork economy I've been thinking we've got a patchwork region and that's where we can do better somehow after 100 years we must work out a way I think and maybe it's through a public transport system maybe it's as simple as that to the coast for our youth because I think it is inexcusable for just down the road in Euribidala where there's 20% higher youth unemployment and so I think that it is incumbent upon you, me, all of us Pacific leaders to try and bridge that gap again through a regional spatial plan it can make a contribution it can't solve all those problems at the local level we're not short of plans and you might think it's ironic that I'm suggesting we have another one but that's another conversation we're not short of local plans but we are short on regional action no integrated transport strategy no integrated settlement strategy no regional response to climate change and I could go on no education strategy collectively between our two fine universities for this university so opportunities through a spatial plan what is a spatial plan you might ask me which is fair enough I see a regional spatial plan as a spatial spatial approach to dealing with issues that cross the boundaries and in this context particularly local government but also central boundaries long tradition of this in Europe the change of government in the UK has just abolished them there we are but a regional spatial plan long tradition in Europe in fact the European Union requires every nation to have a national spatial plan we're a long way from that I hope we see one one day but a regional spatial plan again about not joining the dots I prefer to say making the connections to make a difference transport and infrastructure clearly public transport in this region has to improve rapid public transport preferably rail I don't know if anyone heard Tim Fisher this morning he was fantastic he's just published a book about the 21st century in transport and he's really arguing very strongly for investment in rail right through this country and I've just been over in Europe and I've been through China when I came back I was just struck so much we are so far behind on this agenda and yet it's so obvious to people overseas they look at our country and say why haven't you got rapid rail down the eastern seaboard it's a no brainer and Tim Fisher answered this question really well this morning the reporter asked on AM so why would it be any more affordable today than it was 10 years ago Tim he said that's not the question to ask the question to ask is this do you want a 10 lane highway going all the way up the seaboard or not wouldn't it be better to have rapid rail I don't think this is a better way the Canberra region this is the region that we've adopted for kerf it's also an extremely capital region and I just thought I'd better put a map up is it? so what do I mean by a sustainable capital region for here now I thought I'd have a look at some of the regional plans under the RDA process and this has been compiled by the inland regional development group and you could see in a tangible way which is why I like this slide and they let this to me in a tangible way lots of things are happening lots of things are happening about a clean green resilient regional future right now and I think we need to know that and be heartened by that because I think there's enormous potential these are the three regional plans if you're interested in one for the southern inland one for the far south coast and one for the ACT the ACT as always is an anomaly so we're the only RDA in the whole country that has one for the the state or the territory regional development ministry have heard me say this so they won't be upset when I say I actually think we just need one RDA possibly for the ACR that's fine a sustainable regional future so this is where I'll make my beginnings of what my recommendations about what I think should happen in the future firstly investing in rubber transit making the connections a shifting frame and passages from road to rail a priority secondly an urban development program that builds upon the current settlement pattern and maintains the spaces in between green we are different let's retain that difference let's not go down the path of every other city in this country for agriculture, for biodiversity and for climate change and adaptation particularly the works program I mentioned before that underpins a green resilient future and green growth and being in a university of course a transformative education research program to support a sustainable urban regional future so we have an urban original program for the first time in 100 years the University of Canberra is fantastic and I'm the foundation chair and I feel it's a great privilege and honour to have that role and I plan to be around for a while the other part of that of course is climate change we have the climate institute at ANU which is just recognised as an international leader in this field so we have the ingredients to build this we also have all the other researchers that are here that are starting to be part of CURF I know and to build this sort of these connections but we need investment we need investment in these fields considerably the research investment in urban and regional research in this country is infinitesimal and one of the biggest issues in this country is expanding cities and I possibly, although I will correct the investment, relative investment compared to medical health but I won't upset any doctors here climate change is also infinitesimal relative to school so we do need to be involved in that change so what is CURF I mean the UNSURF TAF and CURF some of you will know about CURF now third seminar we're nearly one years old we're very young we're a year old in November we think it's an innovative platform for joining the dots for making the connections for this region we think it's we hope that it has a great future with all of you so two universities have come together which is a great step forward to establish this and to build those relationships it does aim to be a collaborative regional response and it arose out of a series of discussions where a number of us kept meeting at different places and then at the particular meeting in Adelaide we met and we said well this is fine but what are we actually doing for our part of the world why why don't we as the two universities in camp start making a contribution to our region and how we can improve what's happening here so at the very at the co-directors colleague Professor Will Staffman and myself we're having chats to important people and CURF principles and themes well and I wrote a paper very recently and presented it I presented it in Bob Webb was there as well from the Climate Institute and it causes at this early stage to like down what CURF is so it causes us to think about what the principles are and with the CURF team we had already developed the research themes but I think interestingly the first principle we ended up with was trust because to share knowledge and to build partnerships I think there is nothing more important than trust once you lose it it's very hard to get it back so trust is something that certainly the people involved in the CURF team is something we're all committed to and I hope we can build on that because I think there's a really important message if we are going to solve these conflicts or some people call wicked problems we are going to have to come out of our silos it does feel uncomfortable we are going to have to share intellectual property that's like against the law in academia we are going to have to make these connections so we're going to have to be a little brave here and I think the benefits will be explanation we're not just about research, we're also supporting education and this was our coastal planning course on the New South Wales coast just two weeks ago as my students with my colleague Bill Ma in the Europe Adela Council future politicians there looking very engaged and on the beach and clearly we had a rewarding week although it rained six days out of six so feedback might be good on the course but it won't be on the weather engineering sustainable systems at the same time here with Barry Newell and Katrina Plast Will and with some support from me but principally Will put this document together about in the North Canberra and it's about transformative change again that's an example nailing ourselves to the recommendations at this point are we it's the beginning of a conversation it's another way to start stimulating our thinking locally and that's what university is meant to be doing I think that's what we're here for and so one of the reasons we're here for and so this is now the basis of the third year at Masters students for this semester at the Australian National University as their case study so that's a real partnership I will keep asking is this a research institute no it's a platform what's that so it kind of had to start to define it and so we see it as something that adds value over and above what research institutes traditionally do so the words integration synthesis and transformation really good words that have developed out of that conversation what's coming up the 25th and 26th the regional symposium in partnership with the department of regional Australia a partnership with the ACT directorate of environment and sustainable development has just been signed off we'll be giving advice to that directorate over the next 12 months on some of the big issues spatial plan climate change, transport so that's a very exciting opportunity a regional profile is being built there is no where at the moment to go anywhere to actually look at what this region is about if you want to whether you're in the community whether in politics and business or in research and so we begin to build that regional profile and we hope it will be very useful I've mentioned the inner north camera transformation project 2013 and I'm hoping that this meeting tonight is the commencement of a process to start developing an integrated regional spatial plan for 2013 for this region if you're interested in CURF it's the CURF website and I encourage you to have a look now finally just before I finish there's another hat that I wear which is a judge so I can't discuss it but you know it's increasing one of those roles these days capithetical and so if you're interested if you design architecture sustainability or you want to get a team together then I encourage you it's $100,000 prize there's the honour of course and it's open for entry now and I think it says entries close 31st of January 2012 so I really do encourage you students, academics all walks of life put together an entry and see what you can do see if you can make a difference so I've started at the national level I've gone to the regional level I've started to try and join the dots and I absolutely love this cartoon and I thank you for listening I'm happy to answer any questions Thanks Barbara, I think you've asked a test and the students said you need a time but a good period of time now for questions so Barbara's happy to take any questions that you have out there Jenny? Sorry, I've got the food Jenny Goldie the particular hat I'm wearing tonight is a present of ACTP oil and I really support everything you've said on transport and getting freight and people on the from-road onto the rail but you haven't mentioned once people and as far as I can see we're likely to have a crisis with people and rising oil prices before we have climate change even though we have seen some extreme weather events which are probably a result of climate change and I this is not so much question but I'm really just urging Curve to address the urgency of rising oil prices I went to the talk by Mike Kelly and Kuman the other day and he's talking about the development of biodiesel from algae from power stations and so on which is terrific but it's not going to happen tomorrow we really are facing the likelihood of very high oil prices very soon which is going to before these alternatives are developed which is really going to throw a spanner in the work of existing transport and I'm wondering whether it's possible to convey some the urgency in developing plans about the surrounding higher oil prices which might need to occur in the next year or so sure absolutely I don't disagree with anything you've just said I could have given a lecture almost on every slide I put up to nice so it was a bit of an escalating on the top pick oil is a critical issue I probably disagree that I mean climate change is happening concurrently so and does particularly in this region we must wait to be able to invest in that next question how could we do the population change particularly the aging of the population into a regional community and then planning priorities but the demographic profile I think it's very significant certainly in the case of Europe and the demographics age group between 18 to 30 it's just gone and then at the other end of the spectrum aged population now in Europe Adela if you think of the pattern of coastal growth in our south coast taking a local example basically a linear pattern that's great now financing infrastructure on that kind of pattern is very very problematic also from a community perspective they want one of each like a swimming pool in each of those towns the biggest argument there has been by the regional hospital so the pattern of urban development on our south coast has not helped the aging demographic I'm very concerned about issues like isolation, access to services if you're somebody who is not able to drive a car anymore or wish to drive a car the options for public transport are a negative so I think there's a problem already the nature of the pattern of development has exacerbated that and the aging demographic has been very significant I have to say I'm a big fan of trains I love riding on them I love railways but I do remember in the 70s when all the train lines got taken away because it costs more to freight people and things by train and I just wonder what it's going to take to get that investment is it a matter of the government taking that micro-economic view out of the equation and saying we have to have trains that's a really good question well maybe it is that it does come back to a legal issue in that sense but also as Will knows I'm becoming more and more interested in our cost-benefit analysis about these issues kind of pricing people help with that but I think and the OECD I have connections with definitely beginning to look at this so I think until we change our economic modelling to look at the social economic and environmental components in a real way it's very hard to give the economic so in the absence of that it requires an issue but I from my understanding that is changing I think in the ACT we're looking at the green accounting some of these issues from my understanding certainly at the common work level around the treasury we're looking at those issues so maybe it burns well for the future but till we mount those arguments in a more holistic way it's very hard to give those arguments so we need to do that there's a question over here yes it's very interesting I'm interested this sort of one minute of conversation question you talk about the regional spatial plan and the potential for that I think is incredible from your point of view who would you see as the key players involved and the necessary key steps to actually get that happening again a good question I do think and I'm not scribbling out of it I do think it varies from region to region there's one thing I've learnt and if you'd asked me in my 20s I would have said that's it, that's it by the way finish I knew everything in my 20s I think that I've learnt a little bit along the way and possibly it's depends on the region but I can in a meaningful way hopefully the Geolog 21 is a good example where it did start with a group of white minded people who made a commitment to make it happen and then local government became involved each of the local governments decided to put in not a lot of money can you imagine say after tonight this group decided to have a regional spatial plan step one anyway regional spatial plan and then say after tonight each local government council contributed 20,000 oz and there was a bit more money coming from maybe the city saying we had 400,000 to spend we would have a regional spatial plan that's why it would cost so I don't think and I did think about this before I came down they're going to ask me what do you mean and how are you going to do it and that's how I think we can do it it starts with a meeting like this it's like that revelation to some of my friends we were in our 40s and we always said why aren't we doing this, this and this and then we looked at each other and we thought well actually we're the decision makers now it's actually up to us we have to take the lead I think it's not complicated it's like a group of people like this make a decision to make a habit share outcome and work together and bring in local government and then if you follow the general model the state of Commonwealth will come in because once they see the momentum and see it working the politicians will definitely come in and then the jurisdictions will come in there was another question and it said Barbara, all your plans come music to my ears where the dollar come from isn't it more than 80% of our income export dollars come from mining in conflict of interest that would be their own to create a job they have to have mining and mining is an environment so where can we stop? stop a few things but I won't so we're jumping back to the national Sunday and this is where we do talk about a patchwork economy and look I think there are real challenges and I think there are some and I'll come back to planning about this something I do want to say tonight just before we finish there are decisions we have to make in the future about what we will support and what we will support Carnup rice in my view my personal view is absolutely the right direction to start sending that message to the industry and this is where I'll come back to planning Australia when they interviewed me in the weekend for the sea level rice featured thing they ran this weekend we have half an hour discussion we have one line in the paper I love these things so they asked me about certainty and sea level rice we have my 30 years experience in planning Victoria National has brought me to the conclusion lightly or wrongly that industry is looking for certainty and they are looking for certainty and they are looking for the price signals once you set those price signals if you're in business, if you're on a board they will shift they will adapt what they don't like is uncertainty and so I think whether it's issues around carbon pricing whether it's issues around planning and this is my real point about planning we need to have the ability to say yes or no in planning we have lost the ability to say no and that's a more serious thing probably the subject for another seminar but in planning we have lost the ability because we went through a phase deregulation through the 90s planning was not something that we were allowed to mention really some planners here would know that because it's seen as intervention it became flexible now flexibility is good for innovation but it's not good if it means anything can go and I think that planning has lost its way in that way and I say this is past national President we do need to be able to go back and be able to say that's where you can develop for all those good reasons based on evidence and analysis that's where you cannot develop because we need to retain those spaces in between the green as I said and we get more we are we are not cutting it up we are putting more and more attention to the money how can we fix the environment which is in contrast with mine look I appreciate your point very much for having to talk about it over at Dray Captain but I just think that I do look I agree with you but I guess I am hopeful with some of the recent decisions that have been made around valuing the environment whether it's through carbon pricing or other measures that that will facilitate that transition to a clean green future look at this I saw in the paper about a week ago a map of Canberra and the different parts of Canberra that would be more vulnerable to climate change and I was wondering have you had a chance to look at that or are you involved in looking at where we take that into in terms of developing adaptation measures I saw that map too and I tried to find the report and I am still looking for it so to be honest I haven't read it I tried to read it but I haven't read it and so if anyone could help me I would like to say thanks because I was really interested and I think in the role that CURF has over the next 12 months definitely will give you a look at that but I think it's a great step forward that we're starting to do our own analysis for the next few weeks let's take a couple more questions before we talk there's one here and then Tony and then one over there those three I'm from the community region one of the issues I think is going to be difficult is communication is out there into the communities and communities get those ideas back out because we've got the multi-layer and there are stops and breaks and things of each other have you got a strategy for getting your ideas out fairly quickly into the community so we can have a look at them and think back to you well I could simply answer CURF but I'll try and be more expansive than that I think that it is early days for CURF I mean that's partly what CURF's about it's about crossing those boundaries I'm hoping to go through those traditional means and having a digital website to just even put today's talk up straight away tomorrow but certainly from CURF's perspective we are looking to have third speaker we are looking to have regional speakers in our forums and I'd be quite happy if we had forums in the region and we're having a regional symposium with the department, the federal department in Patence Bay communication so I think look it's not easy and there's communications experts here I'm not a communications expert I'm at every planet but I do know enough from my own experience you need to use a whole range of media and we'll be seeking to do that any suggestions you have love to come to CURF well a community can help we can feed out to our communities if we have the right information that's not good great, that's a good outcome certainly kind of a lot from the Parliamentary Australia we can partly respond because we have regional development committees everywhere and they have a role and we've got our own website and we can help in that communication as well but having just spoken to the New South Wales New Government, New South Wales who are interested in working about the capital region and working across boundaries what would be powerful is if the communities the community was organised particularly regional development committees and that region were interested if they were putting proposals up we can help guide that that becomes very powerful so where the public become very powerful they can get all that alignment because it's much more difficult sometimes from public policy to get the alignment between the various levels of government but if the community already aligned it's much easier for the governments to align and I think that would be a critical conversation which might then support the national capital region or whatever you're calling it come to fruition last question thank you, I very much enjoy your presentation too I just wondered if you are probably aware that the ACT has done a state environment report initially they just did it the ACT but they stand it out to a regional involving I think some 16 Shires and seeing your map I'm not sure how they supposedly aligned but it seemed to me to make a good link to what is being produced out of those reports and aligning it to what obviously you're trying to achieve in a regional sense I'm so pleased you asked that question because I spoke to Max last week and I wanted to talk about that when I saw how long the talk was I ran out of room I thought I did anyway originally I cut it back to 30 I think we're still worried about that I think that I value that work I recognise that work we both do and we have very good dialogue between the Swedish in fact between those two I certainly think the cross-border issues in terms of transport are something that really need to be worked on the figures I'm trying to remember the figure of someone or nobody one of my students none of the people who come to Canada would jump every day 20,000 out of the workforce like 30,000 it's huge from point in to camera every day do we have a transport plan just to cross the border no that would be a good start right it's time now to retire for further discussion over some wine before we do let's thank Barbara again for