 How's it going everybody? I am Clint Smith. I'm a 2020 Emerson fellow and the author of How the Word is Passed and Welcome. Thank you for joining the New America Fellows Program and the Center for the Future of War for the discussion of Jonathan Katz gangsters capitalism Smedley Butler the Marines and the making and breaking of America's Empire Before we start a few housekeeping notes if you have questions during the event Please submit them through the Q&A function and we will make sure to get to them in the second half of the event and most importantly Most importantly copies of gangsters capitalism is available for purchase through our bookselling partner solid state books You can find a link to buy the book on this page Just click buy the book at the bottom and I say this and I say this beginning Because sometimes in this virtual space people can like click on it and they'll open a tab and they'll be like Oh, I'll get to it You've got 7 000 tabs on your computer and then your computer crashes And you never get a chance to buy the book that you meant to do it right now Click on it buy the book by 7 of them buy them for to stack on you know under your computer for your zooms Buy them for your coffee table Buy them to show that you are a thoughtful Interrogator of the larger american imperial project and in putting it in conversation with the world around us today But most importantly buy it because it's an excellent book I'm so excited to get into this conversation with jonathan Who if you are not familiar with uh, you should get familiar with jonathan Cats jonathan m cats is a 2019 asu future of war fellow at new america He received the james folly medill medal for courage and journalism for his reporting from haydie His first book the big truck that went by was shortlisted for the penn john kenneth galbraith award for nonfiction and won the overseas press long overseas press clubs quinellia spryan award The j anthony lucas work in progress award and the w ola duke award duke book award for human rights in latin america His work appears in the new york times foreign policy and elsewhere Cats also received fellowship from the logon nonfiction program. He lives with his wife and daughter in charlesville, virginia jonathan How are you doing man? How's the virtual book tour been so far? It's been virtually great virtually great. That's that's uh spot on um, so I mean we're gonna hop right into it these hours fly by first of all How did you decide to make uh smithley butler the sort of central character or protagonist around? um this book because this is you know in many ways this is a book about us imperialism and You could have taken a myriad of different approaches But you kind of used a certain person a certain character someone who i wasn't familiar with as the As our guide almost through the history of american imperialism And I thought that that was such a fascinating and effective Strategy and i'm curious if that's how you imagined it from the beginning Where did you kind of stumble on him or were you gonna write a biography of smithley butler and then Just it morphed into something else. I'm curious of sort of the evolution of the process It kind of first of all by the way. Thank you for doing this Uh, this is this is terrific, and I've been very excited about putting our books in conversation because you obviously wrote an incredible one um Yeah, so I mean to a certain extent and maybe i'm remembering it wrong, but this idea sort of like kind of Almost popped out of my head fully formed at once um You know the I first encountered smithley butler while I was writing my first book the big truck I had come across his name shortly after moving to haiti. Um, I think on wikipedia like an article about the banana wars and uh, I then after the earthquake in 2010 I was writing the big truck and I knew I I wanted to sort of you know Go back into history and explain how things have gotten so precarious And that required talking about the us occupation of haiti And butler is a major character in that occupation and for that book You know, I was looking and maybe this is like partially An out of order answer to your question about the way that I think about my process But like, you know, even at that moment, I was thinking like well if i'm gonna Tell the story To drive the narrative forward um And I didn't end up using any of the material that I collected on him It was a very brief amount in in the process of writing that book. Um But the thing about butler that made him So I was sort of fascinated by both questions simultaneously the question of Uh, you know, how did how has america's imperial past been remembered by The rest of the world, but it's completely ignored and and in many many cases actively suppressed the memory hold in the united states And who was smithley butler? uh butler You know, I'm not just saying this like just to sell books I'm explaining like how I got into the like butler is butler is one of the most fascinating characters that I had ever encountered he You know, he was everywhere. You know, he was zealoc. He was in every, you know, u.s. Invasion occupation Overseas war from 1898 until the eve of the second world war And then at the end of his life, he becomes a anti-war anti-imperialist critic And so part of it was just like I was like, well, how did this guy? How did this person who was known literally as the devil in hady? How did he become this anti-war Later in life and then this sort of merged seamlessly as I remember it. Maybe I'm just remembering but I talking about memory From the beginning With this question of you know, and why why is this person who was so famous back then? And why were these wars that were such a big deal back then? Why why are none of them talked about today? Which then created an opportunity to like, you know, write a whole book about it um, so that was that that you know You know, I'm sure there was maybe more conversations sort of at the beginning But as I remember the conversation with my agent was that I want to write this book About smithley butler, but I don't want it to be a biography of smithley butler I want it to be a history of american imperialism and then I wanted to have this modern day component Uh, where I you know travel to the places and use sort of my skills as a foreign correspondent to talk about Uh, the ways in which you know, that story is you know reverberates today Um, and that it was sort of a process of me trying to convince her and then trying to convince the publisher That this kind of you know, cockamamie idea was was was a good one I mean it's so interesting because I mean as you say like he was everywhere. I mean, it's it's almost kind of like if you were going to write If you were gonna if I was gonna write a screenplay, you know, like making up a character I you know, if I read this I'd be like, okay, but like was this person really like like every single Imperial project that the united states engaged. I mean it felt. I mean he was in the philippines. He was in Haiti. He was in china. He was in Uh, I think Mexico. He was in all these different places Um And and it just I mean it kind of sometimes I think when you're writing non-fiction The the characters end up being better than the fictionalized Version that you would have come up with and and Smedley butler to me seems like one of those characters who just serves as Again, it's like really remarkable guide through the so many of the sort of atrocities that the us has enacted or been a part of over the past several decades and One of the other things you do when you alluded to this is not only is it is he serving as the Our guide you're also serving as our guide, right and you There's a version of this book that could have been written from your office, right? That could have been written from the library Uh, that could have taken so much of the incredible history and archives that you delved into So many the incredible primaries was documents you spent time with And and written what still would have been a really great book But I think what makes this look different and what takes it to the next level and something that I really resonate with a lot because It's very similar to how I did my book. We were talking before the The webinar started about how there's a tiktok Out there that has the book. Um, how to how to make an empire or how to build an empire How to hide an empire how to hide an empire and then my book how the word is passed And it's like if this book and this book had a baby together it would be and then they showed this book Um, and after reading the book I was like that's so funny because we really had similar approaches where it's this idea like you have to go to the place where this history happened Uh, because it gives you a different Sense of that history right to be on the soil to be in the buildings to be with the people who were the descendants of those who experienced these atrocities. How did you come to decide that? You wanted to travel truly travel across the world to go to all of these different places. And why did that feel important to you? So the first thing was that I was You know, so it was it was it was maybe a combination of motivations One was you know, i'm a reporter like it's what I do Um, I I play historian and I kind of I played historian for years while I was writing this book because I spent a lot of time in the archives um, but my wife claire payton Dr. Claire Payton like she's the historian and you know, and and you know, so part of it was I can bring you know interpretive analyses. I can bring you know, I can do Play with different frameworks and I can sort of do some of the work that a historian does What I really do is I'm a reporter like I go places and I talk to people. So that was part of it another part was That and this actually you know, as I as as I'm remembering this um Big shout out to new america seriously because like this book was really born out of Sort of like my new america journey like my new america process um The first time that I actually even said the words out loud. I think i'm going to do a book about snubbly butler was It's like an info session and he's like, so what's your project? I was like, what is my project? I was like, have you ever heard of this guy snubbly butler because it was like a name that is you know A concept that had been kicking around in my head for for a while at that point and it was in conversations Especially with a friend of mine through new america named chris Leonard who was a fellow and and on board for a long time We were talking about so part of my concern was that even though this period really isn't that long ago The period that you know butlers fighting him, you know 1898 to to 1940 It's really not that long ago. Like people are still Alive who are alive during it But I was worried that maybe it would feel remote that some of you know Some of the terms some of the history would maybe feel a little stodgy And I wanted to you know, make sure that that didn't happen and chris actually put me on to a book by tony harwitz called blue latitudes Which was about the journeys of captain cook And in that book, uh, tony harwitz. I mean, this is also a thing that tony harwitz does in other places but in that book in particular Harwitz and a friend actually go The islands in the south pacific in australia and i guess new zealand. There's also an island in south pacific Where cook went and they sort of and he intersperses You know the you know entries from you know cooks journals and like, you know historical like, you know research on that period with like here i am in tuvalu and like i'm passing a billboard and it looks like this and Part of me, you know, it's a part of the reason that I I I really want to do this was I was afraid that butler You know as as as many places as he had been might end up being like kind of Director who would feel out of remove among other things one of the only things that I knew about him at the beginning was he was a quaker from philadelphia and he throughout his life wrote in his letters to his parents and his wife um He would use like thee and thy Which so even though he's you know writing letters like this in the 1930s like You know, I was afraid that that could feel a little like out of date. Yeah Imagine my surprise when I actually got into And I was also worried that maybe there just wouldn't be that much material on like what he actually was doing like in these battles Like what the battles looked like I then as um, you know, I've I've gotten I'm embarking on this research um, and I'm sitting at us the first place that I was doing archival research at quantico through butler's letters and They just and and they're just you know wheeling out cart after cart after cart of his letters And his letters are are voluminous. I mean, they're just he goes on and in detail And he's like bearing his heart and he's talking about his like two fakes and like what he What he had for breakfast and why he wasn't his preferred thing before he kills people I mean it's like and I was like and he's and he's I mean he's funny he is Complicated he's terrible like he like you know his like his racism is like awful and there's all these like parts of him And I was like and I didn't I didn't anticipate that at the beginning And so, you know the way in which he ends up sort of coming alive on the page in his own Tellings and his own just sort of like character fullness Um, and then you know since I'd already since I was already, you know fully committed to to doing the modern day thing I was like, you know, I had to part of part of the writing process was trying to figure out and this was also something that happened at new america in Hence writing workshops was trying to figure out like how do I balance like this just character who jumps off the page in the historical material and you know me going places um, and that was a real negotiation about, you know Turning up the levels on this and turning them down on this And trying to make it all work together. So so the very short answer is that like it was almost It was at the beginning. I thought it was going to be born out of necessity And then it ended up I I think being just sort of something that that added to to what was already as you As you note a great narrative on it, so absolutely Pivoting to the the specific content of the book one of the things that you talk about Early in the book and that was so that was really illuminating for me. So for folks who don't know Um, my own book is a book about the how the history of slavery is remembered or misremembered Um across the united states and and to some extent abroad And so I've been thinking, you know, a lot about the founding fathers been thinking a lot about, you know Went to Monticello went to Mount Peoria went to Mount Vernon Think about what those places represent and who those what the idea the sort of way that those people those men and their ideas served as the foundation upon which Not only American obviously domestic policy, but international policy will be built and one of the things that you brought up was how Jefferson wrote a letter to Madison suggesting that they should Annex Florida, Canada and Cuba and he says we should have such an empire for liberty as she has never surveyed since the creation and I thought that that was so illuminating And I thought and and I'm thinking too about how for enslavers they wanted to Annex Cuba said they would have a place to tip the balance of power so that they could have more control over congress in the u.s. government and it really demonstrates this early relationship between slavery and between slavery and imperialism And you talk about how so many of the people Who were, you know, and this is the founding fathers believe in so many of the people who were the leaders of the confederacy for the former leaders of the confederacy um And who were in charge of these sort of early, uh, jim, you know in charge of the confederacy and the early jim crow Governments were also the people who were going abroad and enacting the policies That were destabilizing these regions in the global south often across the world so Can you talk a little bit about the relationship between sort of domestic manifestations of oppression through slavery through jim crow through indigenous genocide whatever the case may be and and the sort of Almost what feels like of an outgrowth of those sensibilities In the way that people some of those folks enacted And destabilized region different regions across across the world. Yeah, no, that's those are all really good points the I mean in You know, so as you note like before the civil war um, you know, one of the major drivers of of the quest for expansion of the united states was slavery It was to have more slave states more land to expand slavery to um, and and you know, there's slavery capitalism and expansionism were kind of, you know, the two the three legs of of the stool And uh, yeah, and so, you know cuba has initially looked at very hungrily by Uh, jefferson davis as secretary of war. He under franklin pierce. He Is is pushing to to annex cuba Paul considers it And at various points along the way, um, there are there are proposals to annex cuba to annex Santo Domingo, it becomes the Dominican Republic And those are sort of rejected by sort of like america like white americans racism like It's like it's like the it's like the the scene in the simpsons where where it's like mr. Burns is like disease profile and all the diseases are trying to fit through the door at once and and And dr. Hibbert's like if you move remove one of them, they'll all come through But they're all sort of keeping each other in check. It was kind of like that because um Yeah, I mean like, uh, you know a successive president millard filmore, uh came to this conclusion Uh, uh james polk came to this conclusion. They were like, well, we could annex cuba, but Don't speak our language. They're athlete um, and and you know and and the ratio of of of black people to white people and slave people to to uh to europeans Was was such that they were afraid that it you know that it would have these sort of other effects on american life and on the american body Politics that they didn't want and what happens in the period of the book that that i'm you know that where the action is really said um with you know, so the big the book opens with uh, the war against spain in in 1898 And smidley butler joining the marines. He lies about his age He's old and he joins the marines to go fight in cuba and ends up at the the first place the americans Conquering cuba a little spot called guantanamo bay And by that moment, you know, so the civil war has now happened, uh, you know three decades before and it is But the civil and the civil war just like suffuses this entire period in every respect both You know teddy roosevelt and sort of the jingos of the as they're known like the the expansionist the imperialists Desired to sort of reclaim the glory of their father's generation Missed out on, um, you know, they they've grown up hearing, you know tales of heroism the civil war and they hadn't gotten to participate in it um, and then also this sort of relationship between slavery and expansionism because at this point obviously uh slavery has uh Been outlawed in the united states. It's also been outlawed in cuba finally over the course of 30 years of of Independence war by the cubans against their spanish colonizers um, and because slavery is a dead letter in the united states the the the people who are themselves former enslavers or the children of former enslavers um are no longer cuba anymore Tip the balance of power in in congress That's old hat and so for them the only thing that's retained is this other idea that like, you know They speak spanish. They're catholic. They're not white their idea like spanish categories of race are different than america than american categories of race You know, they don't subscribe to the one drop rule so there are some people who don't consider themselves black who would very much be black in the united states and And they don't want it. And so you have guys like, um One of just the all-time great sobs in american history Uh, uh, uh ben tilman pitchfork Ben tilman Um, the the the one-eyed not that having one eye makes him a bad person But it just sort of adds the picture of this guy the one-eyed, uh, you know, he was a confederate He enlisted in the confederate army Um, and he then becomes governor of south carolina. He oversees a huge surge in lynchings and he gives this passionate Opposition to specifically the colonization of the philippines On on the floor of of the senate where he he says, you know, you know You know Incorporating the philippines in the united states would bring in and then he lists all the different categories and subcategories of non-white people Yeah, that he's that he's worried And he's like he's saying like I don't want to be sitting next to the senator from malay Like that's not that's not mine. That's not my vision of myself in america And what ends up happening at this moment is the other thing that's happening um and and uh You know, I I I I draw on on um, uh, the work of adrian, uh, lenn smith Who writes a great book called freedom struggles about this period? um, and and others, um, you know, this is this moment of uh reconciliation between sort of northern capital and southern capital northern whites and southern whites You know, we're in the redemption i mean 1898 is also plusy versus ferguson This is all it's also the the year of the wilmington coup So like all of these things are sort of happening at once and you know, basically white people in the north are like Well, let's let's sort of let's let's find, you know common ground with with white people in in the south at the expense of both non-white black people in the united states and elsewhere and this, you know comes You know, this is lived out on the ground in these wars and there's also in addition to, you know, plusy There's a series of supreme court cases known as the end insular Which are still good law. They still govern life in in puerto rico and guam, etc Which say that just because the united states government runs your island and just because the flag flies over your You know territorial house does not mean that you have equal rights under the constitution And this is still in 2022. This is still the law that governs puerto rico It's it's and and guam and the northern mariana islands, etc It's still the law Uh, it's there's still the cases under which it is acceptable for us to have these fully owned colonies That do not have a vote for president and do not have Representation on the floor of of either house of congress and it's that compromise that ends up Modifying people like pitchfork ben tilman where he's like, well If they're not going to have representation in congress and they're not going to be able to vote for president And we're not going to have to give them equal rights. I guess that's cool with me And it that provided such helpful historical context for me, right and it just really made the through line clear of the sort of Colonial inequity in the the way that Electoral agency has been stripped from these places that are ostensibly members of the sort of larger american project and And you know making it clear that I mean, it's just so revealing because it's you know, you see all these parallels between What's happening abroad and what's happening here where they're like, oh, okay? Well, if if black people can't vote or if black people don't have you know can't run for office or if black people You know, I don't have to sit next to them in the restaurant or if I you know And it's a similar sort of sensibility that are animating the decisions about What the united states relationship to its colonial territories will be Depending on the nature of of who they are and I mean I remember the part in your book about the philippines where the maybe it was like one of the generals or a politician and they were Using some of the same they were using like anti-black language about philippinos Because they they almost like didn't have the language like anti-asian or anti-pacific islander language to use But they were like well, they're brown and so they just started using these anti-black racial slurs to describe the philippino folks Um, and again, just that it just makes that through line so clear and one and you know, this is tied to that One of the things I didn't know I just learned so many facts from your book But like I didn't know that the majority of people who built the panama canal For example were were black people who have been brought in from the west indies and one of the things you talk about is how The united states both in panama, but also more broadly were was like Americans were exporting restaurants and they were exporting You know goods and services and certain things that Came to these regions and I came to panama, but they were also exporting American apartheid right like and and and I think you describe it as such you were like they They were exporting the very racial hierarchy That was that existed in the united states, uh, and then bringing it to To panama and bring it to places where as you've mentioned the relationship Of race like what the sort of racial hierarchy looked different right like race doesn't look the same in panama as it does here Race doesn't look the same in brazil as it does here race doesn't look the same in honduras as it does here but But part of what the u.s. Did was impose its own conception of What it believed the racial hierarchy should be and that animated what? What life in these places looked like and and and really shifted In some ways the dynamics of of race relations and racial dynamics In these places. I think I remember in the panama chapter you were talking about the The struggle between you know because these were black west indians brought in from brought in to panama who spoke english and then They their relationship to the sort of the native and indigenous communities in panama who spoke spanish That was contentious But all of that was happening because white people from america were the ones who were bringing in panama like Bringing in english speaking west indians to i mean in the whole thing. It's like i mean we It gave me such a more expansive understanding of of what Of how the us destabilized these regions Yeah, exactly. I mean and one of the things that I you know, I wanted to make Sure, and it was a lens that that I brought to the book was that you know, it is not In no way in in in almost in no Areas of the book at all. Is it just you know the bad us? Doing things to you know blank slates like these are people with agency themselves They have their own histories and their own complexities and races race and racism is one of them. So yeah in In panama I you know, I I I spent a little bit of the book talking about The you know, and this was something that I would not have gotten Just from reading maybe if I'd read enough maybe who knows but like I got it in a much more visceral way By going to panama and spending time The ways in which you know race and panama is extremely complex because not only do you have You know sort of the and and in the period that I'm talking about, you know, the zonians who are essentially like the white americ mostly white american colonizers who live in the canal zone And then you also have the you know, you have the indigenous panamanians You have the the the panamanians who you know are mestizo with you know mix Mixes between you know european and indigenous and maybe some african ants In black month, there's there's the fight between the afro-colonialis who are the descendants of the original Or the older, I guess I should say immigration forced immigration of enslaved africans by the spanish and then the west indians the afro-intelianos who are the descendants of the Mostly barbadan st. Lucian's Grenadians mostly from the the lesser antilles who the americans brought in to to dig the canal and die for us for for our benefit and the and the way Visceral sense of this was that I you know in panama city. I went to there's a museum And I talk about in the book called the museo afro-inteliano the the the afro-intelian afro-west indian museum of panama Which is which you know contains a history that is not even reflected in the the more well visited museums of the panama canal that you know most tourists go to um, and it just so happened I mean this is the like like you know this and like there's a million moments like this and and how the word is passed as well it's just like Magic that happens like or just there so I just I go so I go to the museum I introduced myself to you know a Woman who is is uh, you know on duty that day. I'm the only person in the museum And you know, I'm like, you know, I'm writing a book You know, I you know and she's like, oh, you know, well we have a like we have a library and I'll go down and I'll introduce you and uh, it's there that I encounter, you know this bound volume of letters from the west indian canal workers all of which are almost all of which are written in english some of them are in spanish um and and I'm reading that like table like, you know covered in like Uh, like, you know, it's like I've got a vinyl cover over the tablecloth Which is how you know, you're really in like you know, like in a panamanian archive somebody's house basically um and Uh, and all and the and the door opens and these women come in and it's the meeting of the friends of the museum And they're like Oh, well, you got to stay Yeah, and so I'm in this meeting and I hang out and it's if this woman, uh, enus, uh, An enus sealy's birthday. It's I think her 80th birthday Uh, and they say your happy birthday and They have cake and ice cream And then I get to know her and actually I don't I like, you know, there's so many things that I did that I don't have time for in the book. I actually end up spending like like a day with enus. She's awesome And like we she she decides like she's like there's a there's a smithsonian museum in in Panama like another remnant of of uh American colonialism It's like it's like a a wildlife center that like has like it's like They have like frogs and like sort of like native animals and it's really she's like we should go to that and so like I'm like walking around um, you know with enus and and and she's you know looking And she's and she's talking about you know her mother from st. Lucia and her father from Barbados And you know them coming to Panama and the and the double and triple racism that they experienced both from the lighter skin panamanians and from the white americans and then also from the afrocolonialis um, and then I go, you know, I go to cologne, which is you know, and and I and I you know, I have lunch with um uh, Marcio Rodriguez who is an afrocolonial whose whose grandmother told her stories of the american invasion in which medley butler to part in 1903 um, and it's and it's just You know, all these are just they're all wonderful women and I would love to go back and hang out with them again Honestly, they're awesome, especially well, they're both cool, but um, but uh, uh, I You know, it was just you know, it's and it's is exactly as you say I mean, you know, I talk about in the book the way that you know the the americans who build the Build the canal zone around, you know, within which the the the west indian workers for the most part do the actual building of the canal and they bring Jim crow like they bring They bring this system in which they divide the payroll. It's the gold and silver system and you have Actually white and and white americans Um are on the gold roll and so they're they're paid at a higher rate and they uh, they get, you know Better housing to get better commissary, etc. They have their own separate entrances And then you have the people on the silver roll who are almost entirely black um, they're these interesting marginal cases where like Like worker like white workers from spain are like fighting and they're trying to figure out like which role do they go on but um And and yeah, and and this was This was promoted by the americans who are overseeing this uh as a mark of modernity like this they sell this as a as a public health Uh, uh innovation where they're like we're bringing this great american innovation of segregation Which is going to somehow like keep people from getting malaria. It makes no sense but like but but but they they they build this as a mark of progress and the fact that had had their own Uh ideas about, you know racial categorization and their own ways of living Within what becomes the canal zone, which by the way, that's another thing that I didn't realize I mean, I had heard about the building with panama canal, but Yes, was that was an area that was was depopulated This was an area that people lived like there were tens of thousands of people who were evicted from their homes forcibly by the americans for the purpose of building a canal and one of the ways in which uh, uh, you know dr. Gorgas um one of the ways in which the the americans who are are are uh overseeing this ethnic cleansing essentially uh, we're just forced total You know population removal from uh the canal zone Um is they're saying like well look how backward these people are like they weren't even segregated like they weren't even Like there were There were light skin and dark skin people like living next to each other Like these people clearly don't know how to create a society We're doing them a favor and that was the way that was one of the ways in which uh americans in that period Uh told themselves that everything that they were doing was okay Man, it's just it's always wild to think about the way that Systems of white supremacy and oppressions more broadly. Um attempt to justify themselves I'm curious from your end. Also, I should say um As we are getting Closer toward the end we're about two-thirds through uh, if you have any questions Feel free to put them in the q&a function. I will certainly incorporate your questions as we finish our conversation Um, so feel free to throw those in there And if you have not pressed purchase this book button press it now do it now don't wait another minute Uh, I'm curious for you. I mean you you went to all these different places I mean, I I just again I could this whole thing could just be me like going through my list of all the things that I learned from your book like that Uh, us imperialism in Honduras is related and its relationship to banana exports And then you talk about how that is one of the ways that the term banana republic Came to exist and it was one of those moments I think I was like eating a dull banana and I was like, oh snap You know, I was like, oh my and I was like, what am I doing? Eating a banana you're eating a banana by the former standard fruit company on whose behalf Smelly butler and the marines intervened In Honduras in 1903 and I I'm I have a question about that, but I'm gonna do it closer toward the end But one thing I'm just curious just generally for you like which place that you went Was most I don't know if the word surprising but like the place that you that is That has stayed with you the most, you know, maybe it's that was most surprising that was most you know that resonated the most that The devastated you the most or that you learned the most like what what is the you know if you can pick? I know it's like picking your kids. It's hard for like Which which one is the one that you are like this is This I couldn't have written the book and not included this chapter So I want to stipulate first off that like Haiti you know I I lived in Haiti, you know for for for three and a half years A lot of my heart is is is still there and you know And and Haiti is Haiti is also the height of Smelly butler's career um, and you know, you know, so You know, there's two chapters on Haiti. There's one on the Dominican Republic Which also deals with sort of the Dominican Dominican Republic's relationship with Haiti I also lived in the Dominican Republic before I lived in Haiti. So there's there's, you know, the three the three hispaniola chapters sort of geographically they're they're the center of They're literally center of of the book And there really are sort of at the heart of how I how I came to this story And the lens through which I view it. I mean, you know, one of the one of the And I talk about him in in the the prologue to the book um, and the prologue is broadly about a you know Smelly butler blowing the whistle on this, you know fascist coup in the 1930s, which I I could and often do find myself spending all day talking about um, but uh, uh, but I also am talking about and I quote the great Haitian scholar michelle ross trio You know his book silencing the past which was one of sort of my load stars And also by the way the epigraph to this book is a Haitian proverb by coup blier potet marksonger the the the one who the one who gives the blow I it was my translation deals I was trying to be a little bit cute with with gangsters of capitalism the one who deals the blow Forget the one who buries the bears the scar remembers um, you know, I'll just say that because it's I guess I guess I just throw cleared myself into into just making that my answer. I mean you know, I I go I I You know, I I knew that I was gonna have to go back to Haiti. Um, you know To write this book. Um, I I went back at a period of extreme unrest Haiti is now in in in yet another one Um, and you know, I go with my with my dear friend, uh, Evan sanon Um, who if anybody here has read The big truck that went by We'll know Evan's very well. He was my fixer and is is my He's he's my he's he's he's my he's my friend And he's he's he's you know, it's the guy who I go through the earthquake with and and he's throughout the big truck And he does, you know, he does make a a an extended cameo in in In the in the Haiti chapter this book because I go and I meet evans In in capy cn in the north and then we go into the mountains to look for The place where smithley butler won his second of two medals of honor In in the massacre at fort rivier and I you know go up this mountain looking for him and end up in a in a voodoo temple, etc um You know, but you know, but but haiti is haiti, you know, it will surprise nobody Who knows me just didn't say to like haiti, you know, um You know, it just comes through and and and uh, you know another part of the book that that that, you know, uh was Ultimately sort of one of the first parts that I reported was on another trip to haiti I you know, I visit this uh industrial park that essentially the clinton's built In response to the earthquake An industrial park which unbeknownst to the clinton's and unbeknownst to the builders of the park Was a forced labor camp overseen by the marines including smithley butler um in which not only so smithley butler among other things that he does in haiti A country founded famously in a in national Revolt by enslaved people against uh, they're they're enslavers against france from 1791 to 1804 smithley butler then reimposes slavery in haiti For the purpose of building roads for the occupation And and this is one of the forced labor camps and at this forced labor camp um a a great Haitian hero of the resistance against the americans charlemagne perrault Um is he's killed by the marines He is and he is buried in this place where the americans uh in in uh the mid 20 10s Building a garment factory complex and and I go there and I meet um, you know You know, I'm on a tour of this factory I kind of escaped the tour and then you know, I speak kray also like I I'm just asking people. I was like, you know You know Where did where is charlemagne perrault? Where where was he buried because I know his his grave had been moved by that point And and I go there and and I'm like, you know, like at this grave site and I'm I'm talking to to um, Uh, a guy I think his name is uh, anise genre and he's you know, and I'm explaining to him, you know in kray Like I'm like, you know, I'm writing this book about And uh, charlemagne perrault and and this period in in american history Uh, because americans don't know about it and he becomes incredulous. He's like, I don't believe like fuck ways I don't believe you like how How could americans not know about this like that's impossible? Um, and so that you know, that was um, You know, that was My answer was going to be the philippines, but I I ended up I ended up throw clearing myself into haiti as as often happens But haiti makes a lot of sense Somebody's one asking uh, and you alluded to this a little bit, but maybe you can go into some more detail Is there anything that you left on the cutting room floor? That you wish you had been able to include? Oh man, so much There's so many things. Um, I actually have an op-ed coming out. Um, I think I think this afternoon And uh, and it contains a um, a little bit of of a material from from haiti from uh, uh a a joint attack uh by the marines and and um The gendams which were uh The the client militia that butler creates which becomes the model for a whole uh Lineage of client armies that go that include the the army of the republic of vietnam People who remember the vietnam war up through the afghan national security forces. Um, and uh, so so that was a piece that that It's it's it it it it it it's basically a piece of writing from essentially, you know 1919 that could get ripped out of a story about a drone strike today But I found a home for that in in this op-ed that's going to be coming out. I think maybe in a couple hours Um, but there's so many things. I mean, I'm you know, uh, you know I wish I could have included that that trip to the to the frog museum with, you know, see sealy um You know, I mean, you know, you know, I I you know as as anyone who's written a book Like, you know, I wrote I don't know how many books I wrote that I that I that I had to you know cut out Um, they're just so many incredible moments, you know and butler is just this He's this fascinating character. Um, you know, and there were some things that you know, I was able to You know sort of work in like a little bit of um You know, I have a scene it's like kind of a partial scene Where during butler's anti-war phase In 1935 he appears at an event in cleveland Uh, and it's it's sort of thrown the event is kind of put on by like the communist party But like they're not all communists who are involved in it and it's a it's a it's a protest against War and against fascism And it's butler Um, uh a a a uh an important anti-faction From cleveland langston hues Um all appear on this stage together along with other people and there's other people who i'm like leaving out of this brief telling and um Just like what so and there's a marine spy who comes to this meeting And reports back to the commandant what's happening at this meeting and and he's there to sort of inform on butler um, but he writes about he writes all this stuff about langston hues um, and he and and um One of the things that he says is that um This this hues guy must be a communist spy Because he speaks far too eloquently to have written these things on his own So they must have been written for him by cpu s a um clearly And so and and and and then you know and then you know I have like I was able to sort of go down this rabbit hole and like figure out a little bit There's there's some you know, there's some uh interaction between butler and langston hues Which obviously, you know, it doesn't need to be said but puts the light of that particular Insult anyway, so like you know, but there was just there were so many things You know, this book was five years in the making I could I could write I could I could write a whole series honestly I don't think I will but I but I hope that there are more of these opids That are coming. I know the feeling of the cutting room floor and looking down at it and being like Damn, that's like three other books. Yeah So so I feel you on that One of the things that I kept thinking about Uh as I was reading and and this might be the last question Is like what is it What does it mean to live ethically as an american Given this history like if we look around us our you know, I was kind of making light of it earlier But like our fruit our clothes our houses, you know, the material that makes our cars are, you know, all this stuff To varying degrees our material manifestations of a history of violence and oppression and imperialism You know, whether it's the things that you know, the people who were killed Uh, you know, essentially killed to make the Panama Canal that so many of our stuff comes through whether it's the bananas and Honduras, whether it's the you know, the beef and Mexico, you know, whatever the case may be What what do you think about what? like what do Yeah, well just what are the how do we live ethically given this history and the ways that all of us even when we try ostensibly benefit from the material resources that have been extracted as a result of Yeah, this past Yeah, I mean, um, and it's all done, you know Because we're an empire it's all done with sort of a flick of the wrist another moment that that I remember this just sort of coming back to me right now that that um that I remember from My travels that I couldn't include was at the fancier museum at Museo del Canal the the museum of the Panama Canal in in Panama City You know, I had to get sort of a special escort in order to be able to like take Those for my notes and while I was going around this museum Um, the the guy who's who's escorting me like asks like, you know So what do Americans think about the fact that the Panama Canal was given back to us in in in 1999? um, you know, uh, are they still mad about it and I was like I don't know how to tell you this most Americans don't even know that we had it at this point Like it's not because we got it because we we wrung everything out of it and and at the cost of all these lives and and all and and and all these things in Panama and they're still I mean, they are still very much living today canal, but but um you know with with all these legacies of american imperialism and You know, like I don't know like I don't think that like the fact that I had that conversation with him Like makes me like, you know an inherently ethical person you know, I think It's a really really hard question to answer and honestly, I think it's a question that Smetley Butler was was dealing with in his life. I mean one of the one of the reasons why I One of the reasons why he is such a fascinating character Um, that you know that I've spent in the last seven years essentially like living in my head with Um is because at the end of his life He recants his Imperial past He writes the series of art. He writes war is a racket and then he writes the series of articles Uh in a socialist magazine where he says, you know, I I participated in the raping of of half a dozen central american republics I made china safe for standard oil. I you know, um Made, you know, Haiti and cuba A good place for this the city bank boys City bank still exists. Um, you know to to collect revenues in Looking back on it I could have given al capone a few hints. The best he did was operate in three city districts. We marines in three continents And the ultimate tragedy of his life and maybe this is the ultimate tragedy of of our lives Is that he ultimately belatedly sees this Imperfectly, he never really he never really deals with his his, uh, you know racism He never really deals with with his intersections of of uh, you know, masculinity and white supremacy But he does see to a far greater extent than you know, almost any other marine does at his time or most any other person does really um He sees the way in which these things that he did that that brought him so much honor and fame and glory have, you know, these these Destructive effects not only on the rest of the world but on ourselves here at home All, you know on you know, these ways in which uh, as as uh, I may say as air says, you know, uh, that that you know one of the ultimate consequences of colonialism is the brutalization of the colonizer Which then comes back home in the form of fascism um and and and brutality at home um You know, ultimately butler He in you know, he's a great success as an imperialist. He's really a failure at you know any kind of attempted At anti war or or or anti colonialism Um, he you know, he spends his last stores of energy Trying to prevent what worked to from happening and trying to prevent the united states from getting involved in it um and and to and to convince americans to you know Decolonize our our our holdings especially in in the pacific and it's only with world war two That the philippines which three chapters of this book that butler, you know spend so much time in um that the philippines are finally granted their belated independence after we have bombed them to death To a certain extent for for douglas macArthur's ego so that he can so that he can make good on his promise You know, I I shall return and then and then return to manila which Becomes the second worst destroyed city in the world after war saw in in in um In in in world war two and but and butler's trying to prevent that from happening and he fails and to a great extent He has failed to do so because He was such an active participant in creating this empire and creating these imperial structures and You know and and and really, you know, I mean, and I think this is the thing that you deal with in your Because well like ultimately this kind of Of individuals versus structures, you know, how much how much of an impact can any one person have Versus, you know, these larger historical and and social structures And the answer is it depends it depends on where that individual is placed An individual president can have much more influence than than than, uh, you know An unhoused person, you know, who's who's just watching all these things go by Um to a certain extent it has to do with the ways, you know the extent to which we are participating in sort of the Goals of these structures in making things worse. You can have much Much more effect then um If you are trying to make a war happen with rusher right now You are going to be much more successful Um, then then then if you then if you, you know, if you try to fight against it Unless you're one of the people who might have influence on this Um, who can stop, you know, the war machine as it goes into overdrive um, and so you know Maybe the answer is you know Uh, maybe the answer is that that it is impossible to be to ultimately be be truly ethical and still be, you know, inside, uh, You know, it's impossible to you know Doesn't until the house using the master's tools, right? Um, uh, you know, maybe maybe maybe that's the answer It is, you know, it it is more ethical to try it is more ethical to try to Shine a light on these things and and and uplift Um, uh, the people who who who are are are trying to point out these crimes and and to and to prevent further ones from happening um people like osmoc con our our new america colleague who has done just incredible work um and um I in the op-ed that I have i i'm i'm tying sort of butler and to her work actually. Um, but um But you know at the at the same time it's like my daughter needs bananas like You know and and uh extricate yourself on it. Yeah. Yeah, so it's it's It's hard. It's really hard and and you know You know, maybe the answer I this is I feel like this is the jewish like they'll tell me to kiss It's like it's the argument. It's the struggle like it's it's it's Being in the fight that like where where where where, you know, where it's as much as you can do um, but it's also You know looking at the ways in which in which uh, you looking at the ways in which you're perpetuating the empire and the ways in which you're trying to dismantle it and And trying to make the best choices you can Yeah, no, I think that's absolutely right. Um, and I think that so much of the point of educating yourself and struggling with it and reflecting on it and You know books like yours that teach us so much about it. Um, or so that we don't do the same thing in the future All right, and and I think that that is um That makes the struggle you know meaningful So Jonathan man, it's an excellent book. Um, congratulations I I know virtual tours and virtuals that you know, the situation can be weird I hope you get a chance to do some in person stuff. Um, at least a few sometimes soon But uh, hope your daughter and your family are doing well. Hope she's loving those bananas as much as my kids are And thank you all. Thank you to everybody who joined us over your lunch break Or if you're on the west coast when your breakfast break Appreciate you coming through again by this book. You won't regret it. Um, it's really really excellent And uh, if you're into audiobooks you can give the audiobook whatever whatever your thing is Jonathan, thank you new america. Thank you