 But let's talk about what governance is needed around citizen development. What does that actually mean? I mean, let's, I realize we're trying to do short videos here, but let's just drag us into a 45 minute webinar, like what's going on here? I think the depth of charge went off. Yeah. So what does governance mean in a citizen development world? That's a damn good question. Yeah. So I spent a lot of time answering this question actually with a lot of my clients. I think what ends up happening is they call and they say, I have X problem. We go in, we try to fix it. And the very first thing is, okay, well, who's doing what, what decisions have you made? What administrative configurations have you decided on? And they're like, oh, well, we're just, you know, all kind of siloed and doing our own thing. And I think one of the big things that we don't think about now that we thought about before is that before every application to some degree had some sense of ownership. We had the exchange guy and the AD guy and the SharePoint guy and everybody kind of was the king of their castle. And so they made those decisions. And in the more mature organizations that I've been in, there were steering committees where those decisions rolled up to governance committees where they made decisions about applications and security and things like that. And I think when we start talking about the cloud, that becomes a lot, a lot more blurry because those roles have kind of shifted around and different people are doing different things and security has changed. And so the first thing that I do with people is basically I have kind of, I have a document that where I've just basically compiled, here's all the different parts and pieces to Office 365. What decisions are you making around those? Are you making decisions? Are you being proactive in what you're doing as opposed to just kind of using things as they're thrown at you? What's your decisions for what your users can do? What are you allowing them to do? What are you not allowing them to do? And is all of that documented? So I mean, I think governance is the idea of understanding what do you have? What are you choosing to do and why? And are you documenting all of that more than anything? And then after that, it gets into details. Well, I think the next piece of that is, because there's a lot of organizations that go through the trouble of documenting. Like setting up those guide rails, those guard rails. But then how are they actively disseminating that information? And as it changes, as people are working within that system over time, what's the level of transparency and the level of communication that's happening? That's where I've seen where companies have struggled the most. It's not in starting out the right direction. It's maintaining that. It's more of the transparency, the conversation, the communication, that aspect of governance, which is so critical, especially around your citizen development strategy. Yeah. I want to tag team on what Sharon said because one of the big clients I worked for was supposed to be six months, ended up being six years. So I guess I liked what I was doing. But I started out, they would come to me with what they wanted. Here, I want you to build me X, Y, Z. And they give me, nobody ever really talked about the business requirements. They saw something shiny. They saw a webinar or they saw somebody present something or like, ooh, I want this, right? And I built it for them. And it was, be really clunky because it really didn't fit. And then after, it's like, okay, what are you trying to do? After they find, they explain to me what they were trying to accomplish. I stopped them right away when they said, I need you to build me this. And my first question is like, what's your problem? Not what's your problem? What's your problem? That's a comment I ask every customer. Like, what's your problem? Yeah, because often what they know is all that they've been exposed to, but like you and I, all of us, we're exposed to a whole lot more. We know a lot about the different capabilities and what the, like you said, the guardrails are, what the pros and the cons are of using different tools for different things. And just because I think planners, the shiny tool in the drawer, doesn't mean that's the best solution for them. So they, it's like, no, if you're wanting XYZ, then you need to use Project Online. Or if you are just needing to track some tasks, you can use a SharePoint list for that. We don't, if you're wanting to do sub tasks and things like that. So there's a lot of discussion that needs to happen with those people before you start fixing what they think they want or creating what they think they want without all the information. I love that task one, Sherry, because I one time gave a session at a conference of what task management tool to use for what? In Office 365, I never gave it again because, oh my God, the audience questions. But, I've done that session multiple times. It's one of the ones, I enjoy doing it, but it's like there's something new and it's changing and evolving constantly. So yeah. It's my tip Tuesday series right now is all on task management. We're starting planner Tuesday, just makes sense. Good on you. But I think to Christian's question originally, and Sherry kind of touched on this, in terms of governance in the citizen development world, two things. One, wait too fast. People jump to technology for governance. On governance can mean actual human guidance. Yes. Like technology is not always a solution and that has, you have to pair it together because technologies, people are gonna find their way around your technology limits no matter what you do and they're not gonna understand them. The second thing is I don't think people, I don't think end users understand what being a citizen developer means. I think John in HR, having an Excel spreadsheet that he started in 2015 and now has become 10,000 lines long with a record of every person that's been hired and just pulling this example out of nowhere, but this is now a business critical Excel spreadsheet and is John a citizen developer? Does John know he's a citizen developer? That's a fact. Yeah. So I did add, I added some links into this spreadsheet, Christian, around the Microsoft maturity model. I'm just gonna do a big plug for that right now because I feel like if you're curious about governance at a very high level and especially how the Microsoft community sees governance, the Microsoft maturity model is fantastic. I was introduced to it for a while back. I think by Christian originally and now I participate in that team and I help them, but essentially the idea is saying, where are we and how can we be better? And what are we doing and what are the things that we can improve within our organization to be more mature in our practices? And governance is just such a big word in terms of well, are we doing this and are we doing that and what decisions are we making? But more importantly, where are we when we talk about citizen development? What are we doing for our community? What are we doing to help them and how can we mature that to a point that we're getting the most out of it? We're optimizing the opportunity. And I think the Microsoft maturity model, in my opinion, does a fantastic job of saying, let's kind of step back and look at this from an optimization maturity level and then let's apply that to the applications. And a lot of times what we find is that it's not, like Max said, it's not about the applications, it's not about the technology, it's about the people, it's about the process, it's about the culture that underlies all of this more than it is the technology. But how are we optimizing those things so that the technology is being used in the way it's supposed to be being used and being, how are we getting the most value out of it? Yeah, that's it. I find that governance for Power Platform is not something you buy. It's less about the tool and it's more about the mentoring and the advocacy. Then it is the control from that traditional IT view that we may have had from many years ago where we lock everything down and prevent people from doing things. It's not about preventing, it's about enabling, hopefully with the right safeguards in place. So interesting topic. I could not agree more. If you're turning something off saying, you know what, if somebody comes to me and they have a need for it, we'll turn it on, then I can come to you. Yep, they're gonna go somewhere else. They won't know it exists. Yep. Well, one of the things to the earlier topic about building solutions, somebody that just needs something to work today and they go and build something, never intending for it to be an enterprise, a company-wide solution, we're looking for that. But the mistake that's made, and we saw this through for those of us that come up through the SharePoint ranks with SharePoint solutions, and there's a reason why Microsoft has moved away from that messaging of SharePoint is not a Swiss Army knife. You should not be building all these other solutions where there are point solutions that even Microsoft has as well as third parties that are specific around there. There's things that it's meant to do and things that it does very well, but you shouldn't just go build everything within it. Can you build an issue tracking solution on top of SharePoint? Like you can, and depends on the scale that you want for that, or, hey, there's a Microsoft list template for the lightweight that just does that. But one thing that I'd even started seeing work within my own organization now is where there is part of the governance process, like, you know, citizen developers go and create things. And even within teams, there's a process of like, I went and I requested, and it's an immediate turnaround time. I'm provisioning as part of our provisioning process for a new team, but there's purpose. It asks me a bunch of questions around it. And then at time intervals, IT reaches back out and says, is this still active? Is this still the purpose? Is this the right people involved? And so as part of that governance process, they're going back and checking, and that's where it fits into the citizen developer as well. It's fine to go and build these solutions, but there should be natural checkpoints after 30 days, then after six months, or whatever it is that you build into it, where you're going back and having a conversation is this still the intended purpose, or do we need to do something else around this? Is this being adopted more broadly and do we need to be looking at building a more scalable, supportable enterprise-wide solution? And it comes back to, it's not about the technology, it's about having the conversations and building that, and to some degree, and this has been my experience, historically, it's the consistency in having those conversations. People then build trust, well, they know that, hey, I can go do something on the fly today because I need it. No one's gonna stop me from doing that within the guardrails, the security compliance guardrails, but they'll come back and check with me, because I've already been, I've been with my company for a year now, with that point, one year, and I've had a couple things I went and created early on where they came back as part of that process and was that still needed? It's like, no, I forgot that I created that asset, yes, we can archive, that we can retire that thing. It was great to see that, and I have more trust in the process now, having seen that work. I mean, I've seen that. Well, I think the keyword you said was sustainability, because you can build this stuff and it has to be, if that person leaves who built it, then that's where, Sharon, you're not in your head because that's where we usually get called into fixed stuff because it broke after the person that created it left, and nobody knew how they did it. I'll go back a couple of years after I built a solution and go, how the heck did I do that? I don't remember how I did it. So, let's just well document it. It comes back to the importance of overall architecture and enterprise architecture and enterprise requirements management and analysis, which I think is a little bit considered a luxury good in our world. And when the economy kind of goes down, I think architecture and analysis and BAs are probably a lot of times the first people to be cut because they don't consider them essential, but truthfully, when we think about modern architecture, I think they're becoming more and more important to long-term sustainability. So, one of my favorite stories, you said BAs, one of my favorite stories is, I went to visit a federal customer a few years ago, we did an all day workshop, they brought in their SharePoint admin, their Exchange admin, they had 10 different admins in the room, and then the CTO came in and out a couple of times, and they had one person for marketing and communications. And we went through the day, we documented all this stuff, and they constantly reminded us of the whole do more with less mantra that has become the IT cornerstone for how not to do, but we're going to do IT. And I sat down with the CTO on the way out, I'm like talking about your lessons learned, what did you take away from this? He went, so two years ago, we got rid of all of our BAs. And they were just looking now at rolling out M365 to a group of scientists from the age of college to 90 who won't retire. And he's just like, the number one takeaway is I have to go back and hire BAs. Like, how can I support this? How can I be a mission enabler if I don't have people who can sit down and do requirements analysis and figure out how do those requirements meet the technology? You mentioned BAs and I could go off for an hour on just that conversation. And the SDLC comes full circle. Right. So I started my career as a BA, so a technical writer and BA, so that's where I started 30 years ago. But I'd say on the other end of the customer journey that just like we need BAs at the front end of that process and throughout, but it really at the front end of that, you know, success on the backend is essentially like the flip side of the BA. It's at the end of that. And when you look at the customer relationship and you look at retention and, you know, and all those facts, you know, having customer success, it's so many businesses and Microsoft included is recognizing how important that role really is. Just to clarify, when you say BA, we're talking about business analysts and not how that acronym can be used for anything. Correct. Business analysts, yes. Business analysts in general. And a lot of times business analysts go by other titles such as architects, solution architect, data analyst, but essentially, yeah, that kind of architecture analyst role I think in general is coming back. Yeah, the person who can translate between the business need and the technological capability. Patrick. So what you're saying is for good governance and good maturity, companies really need to understand what their full investment into technology is. And it's not just a matter of hiring a bunch of devs and admins to click buttons, that there's actually more to it. Right. It's funny. Governance is really about having shared understanding and agreeing on a path forward, a plan. Yeah, that's what it's saying. Yeah, are we recording? Is this ready to go yet or?