 Hello, this is Karl Ackerman, host of Journeys of the Mind, and are we lucky today? We have Dr. David Ball and Dr. Pam Sakamoto, and I use their appellations because they are very important, although we couldn't use them on our written comments for the show. But they are very important, and they are both program coordinators for the Davis Democracy Initiative. The first thing I want to ask both of you is, in this time of turmoil, and especially on university campuses where people don't seem to be talking to one another, can you define what you were doing, and I think what you're doing is so wonderful. So I'll ask that question to both of you, unless why don't we start with David? Well, first, Karl, thanks for having us. It's really exciting to be here. I think what you're describing about the difficulties we're having nationally around having reasonable, fact-based conversations where disagreement takes place. I think this is a national epidemic, if not a global one, and so I think your concerns are shared by the two of us, and by Punahou and the Davises more generally. I think what we're hoping to do with the initiative is create the conditions, the habits of mind, and a curriculum that really allows students to, in a fact-based manner, have meaningful disagreements with one another to learn from one another. That's become increasingly challenging. There's some technological reasons for that. There's some historical reasons for that. We have a lot of unfinished business in this country, too, about how do we coordinate a truly multiracial, multi-identity democratic nation, and it hasn't been tried at the scale before, and I think we're experiencing some real growing pain. So those are the questions you raise or questions that we're thinking deeply about. Yeah, thank you. I'll just add that there's never been a better time than now, but when this was conceived of a few years ago and then launched by Dave and the school, in February it just seemed as if it was more critical than ever to provide then news for conversations to cultivate civil discourse to train our students from K through 12 and how to be active citizens, to give them a voice when often many of the issues surrounding all of us seem intractable and overwhelming, that this is actually an initiative with a lot of hope for the future. Well, Pam, I'm going to go to you now and ask you, and I'm going to ask the same question to David. So be prepared. You know, what brought you to this work? You know, I know that you were an accomplished author. You have a PhD from the University of Hawaii, and I want to emphasize with, you know, 10 exclamation points accomplished to author. So, you know, what brought you to this work? Oh, thank you. Well, actually, my PhD is from the Fletcher School at Tufts University. So I'm a mistake. It's in international relations and diplomatic history. I think that I just came off five years as department head in social studies in the academy. So grades nine through 12, that punahoe. And one of the topics of conversation within the department has long as for a long time been civics. Now, at different points in many schools across the state and the country, a civics course will be put into place. In our department, we decided that we wanted to weave civics throughout the curriculum, and that seems to be a general tendency at our school. So since I was seeing so much in my administrative role, so many opportunities and sometimes missed opportunities to explore the values of what it means to be a citizen in a democracy. It just became more and more evident that this was a really purposeful work. I also have to say that Dave and I co-teach a course called Bison America, which is a second semester version of the US history from the Civil War to the Present and American Literature for juniors and seniors at our school. And we're constantly experimenting with how we can teach students to be good consumers of digital information in a digital landscape that is increasingly populated by misinformation and disinformation. And we're teaching students how to cultivate a voice and that this work leads directly into that. And I think teaching and thinking hard about speakers and curriculum, those are really intertwined tasks. So for me, it's fun and challenging and mission driven. And I'll give the floor to Dave. And, and David, you know, I made a mistake. I'm so sorry, Pat, with the Fletcher School as your PhD, but David, is it your PhD? I've been asked the question as opposed to making a mistake because I made a mistake. So you're from, from, from that small university in Princeton, New Jersey, isn't it? Yeah, the very orange one. Yeah, the, yes, with the, with the tiger, right? Right. Like the more interest, the more interesting question is, you know, sort of how you translate ideas to action. So the build on what Pam was talking about, about our sort of curricular and pedagogical goals. I think what's at the core of this work for both Pam and myself is how do you invent students that they can take their talents and their ideas and translate them into action that has, you know, a meaningful effect in their world. And for me, I was a young assistant professor in central Pennsylvania in Cumberland County, and it just so turned out, started in 2008, that it was the most purple county and the most purple state in the nation with a very consequential election and a historical one. And I just started, you know, rather than be a sad bachelor in my split apartment away from my wife, I decided to, you know, walk into the, the local volunteer office and started getting involved, started asking questions, who's registering our students? How are we getting to the polls? Do we have answers to these questions? And it was an election that really engaged young people. And then in 2008, became 2012, 2012 became 2016. When I moved here in 2017, I started asking the same questions, obviously a very different political landscape, both nationally and locally. But, you know, and then I started finding people who are asking similar questions to me. And then we were fortunate enough with the general city of the Davis family to really have, reading about, to really have the gift of our time of Pam's and my time to devote to this work, to make these resources easier to access for teachers, to make that available to schools beyond Palau. And so we're thinking a lot about independent school and public school collaborations. We're thinking a lot about bringing in experts, both in Hawaii and beyond Hawaii, to our students. And we're thinking about K-12 initiatives, where we're wondering and the research suggests that the earlier that you can do this work, you can develop these civic habits and these civic dispositions. The more long-lasting there are for young people's lives. So there's a really tremendous opportunity I think that's here. Well, you touched on the sort of public nature of this initiative. And so can you, David or Pam or and Pam, can you give me examples of sort of the democracy and initiative both on the Punahou campus and also in the community? And I must preface this by saying that your launch had almost every political figure in the Punahou Chapel and all the major stakeholders. You did a good job from your launch on and I was so happy to see. And of course, I was truly impressed that that young man called Senator Brian Schatz was there, who was one of the most impressive gifts to democracy in the United States. But we won't talk anymore about Brian. Okay, so... Well, you can't say Brian Schatz without saying Punahou alumnus, right? Those two words have to have to follow. I mean, he's one of our own and we claim him. And I'm actually just to speak personally, I'm very proud that he represents me because I think he is someone who really feels this in his bones and then acts on it and the job that he does every day. When we're thinking about public initiatives, sometimes it can be as something as simple as something I'm really excited about, spring is we're making our campus available to the Department of Education to host their civic education professional development. So we're going to have 225 educators from around the state come in and use our theater, use our resources in order to deepen their knowledge about civic education and how they can act this in our classrooms. And then we're fortunate enough to have a large enough space that there's lots of room for H.I.S. Hawaii Association of Independence School instructors to learn alongside those DOE educators and to really try and break down those walls. Sometimes it's a public lecture. We're hoping oftentimes a model now for public schools is just something as simple as getting a bus to get to an event. So it might be something as simple as chartering a bus for a partner school where our students and their students can be in conversation and community with one another. When I talk to our students about what they're really excited to do, they're really excited to build bridges between their school and other schools. And oftentimes our schools come into community with one another in a competitive atmosphere. Usually it's on the sports field. And we're really wondering how can we build that into a collaborative sphere where we're not on separate teams but we're working together to solve common problems. That's a wonderful example, Ben. I'll just add one more example because I know many other examples in other spheres, too. We work closely with the University of Hawaii Manoa's Richardson School of Law as well as the university itself and their Better Tomorrow Speaker series. And this semester at the beginning of the school year, we co-hosted Maya Kobabe, who is the author of the most banned book in America to talk about freedom of speech and LGBTQ issues and how to navigate the book bans in libraries nationwide and why that matters to all of us. And Camille Nelson, the Dean of the Law School, was present in my so tomorrow from the Natsumaga Institute of Peace, moderated. Dave was helping man the war room at the university to funnel questions. There was a library sciences professor present, and the guest speaker Maya Kobabe dialed in from California. That was a really wonderful event that you can still access online. Dave, do you want to add anything about that one? Well, I think just that we're hoping to have opportunities like that. If I can put in a plug, it would be to anybody who's interested in partnering with the school, please reach out to us. You can just Google Davis Democracy Initiative. You'll see our emails at the top of that page. You know, I think we're in the kind of talk story and ideation phase of this. We did launch in February. And I think we're very keen not to see this as a program. This is something that Punahou is giving to Hawaii, but really hoping to co-create with stakeholders around the state of knowing what the needs are, knowing where the opportunities are, where the challenges are, and really being just one voice at the table to work toward common solutions. I think everybody feels the need for the how vanishingly rare these virtues are in our country. And it feels like we're at a particular stress test in our nation's history. And you know, you look at what's happening in our system, Matt, you look at what's happening with things like crisis management. We have a lot to improve on locally as well. And really getting young people involved in those processes, I think it's a very, very exciting challenge for us in the years ahead. You know, I was very impressed almost immediately by what you guys were doing when Dr. Bonnie Tremor, who is one of your very gifted faculty, invited Governor Green in to speak to her classes. And then you dovetailed into this and worked with her. And I was wondering how much of that is possible at Punahou because you have a very unique faculty, a very gifted faculty I'm at, and you have a thriving, you know, Hawaiian Studies program. And under the leadership of Keolani Keoloha Skullian, you have that outreach to the public with the partnerships and unlimited educational program. And Pueyo, the partnerships and unlimited educational opportunities program Pueyo. And so I was wondering how much you guys do that, how much you dovetail on others' work, which provides even more examples and more opportunity for the Davis initiative. That's a great question, Carl. I mean, ideally we dovetail as much as possible because we know that our teachers, whether they're at Punahou or in the DOE or at other independent schools, they're just so busy on a day-to-day basis. So if a teacher indicates to us that they're interested in posting someone or bringing in a speaker in a certain field, we will help them do that. We'll take that off their backs. We will make the arrangements and we will advertise it wisely at our school and outside of school if it's a public-facing event. And then we know that we have students who are specifically interested in the topic because a teacher is requesting that speaker for their class and we know that they will have an audience and we then bring in lots of outside interested people too. And we're just trying to build on that kernel of interest from teachers and we recognize that they may not have the time, but they have the will and we'll do that organization for them and maybe even expand it for them. So that is our approach. And I think we're very blessed in Hawaii to have a really vibrant grassroots energy across the state. I think one of the things that's a challenge for us is communication among those organizations and the patients, oftentimes common missions that they're working on. And so I see a real opportunity for the initiative to be a communicator, to be a switchboard. Whether it's getting students involved with those organizations, whether it's helping those organizations communicate with one another, whether it's just being an active and eager partner in the good work that's happening across the state as well and across this campus. I know you know this, Carl, like I know it's a small city and it never sleeps. And so I'm always discovering individuals, organizations, connections that I didn't even know existed. So it suggests to me that we really do, you know, endless opportunity to accomplish some great things. So in that regard, because you mentioned public schools, but I'm and you did mention HIS, but I want to ask you very specifically, because David, you and I have had previous conversations about this, and that is the connections with Eolani school, because they have that, you know, many decade history of the Kiebel's chair. And I was wondering if you are partnering with them, and especially let me, with that new African American Studies class that's being offered, especially because of what you guys teach, which I would like to take. I'm not going to put any pressure on you. But, you know, the African American Studies class that has gotten so much publicity, because of the college board, but, you know, how much are you collaborating with schools like Eolani and Kamehamehan, that we have about 30% of our kids in Hawaii going to private schools too? Yeah, it's a great question. And I think building those relationships is the first step. I think also one of the things that I notice at every school and that you think of as a coordinator of this kind of energy, having a really engaged and active audience, right, your programming lives, or your program lives, because there are people there to experience it, to respond to it, to build upon it. And so, you know, we've been, you know, Russ and I, for instance, have been talking about the amazing speaker that they have coming, they have Imani Perry coming in this year. And we want to get one of those students in the door. We're still shuttling our speakers right now, but we're going to also make sure that there are enough seats in the room that every interested student, every interested faculty member, colleague who wants to be there can be there. I think we're also trying to resist when it comes to peers, things like the Keebles chair and I know they do a great job of this as well. You don't want it to be a one and done somebody parachutes in from outside our community. They drop 90 minutes of knowledge on us and there is quickly out the door. We want those experiences to be sparks for conversations that we're having with one another. We want to, we want to feel the echoes of the reverberations of those visits. How can they impact our classrooms? How can they impact our relationships with one another? How can they impact our community building? So really building opportunities for colleagues, for students across campuses to have those experiences, I think are really, really valuable. Another thing I'll say is that I don't know how that doesn't always have to build that thing. We're starting a program. We're embedding students at Civil Bee and trying to get them to have a really neuro-going knowledge of what nonprofit news is, but I was never going to be as good at Civil Bee as doing that work. They live, eat, breathe that work and they're a really important pillar in our community. So the role of the initiative there is making sure that the opportunities are available for students to experience the good work that they're doing. There's not to try and duplicate their work. And I think sometimes that idea of can you create the room that the energy can have that can you be a connector and a switchboard between students and organizations. I think there's a real opportunity for us to grow that. I'll just add that I think we have very cordial relations with our counterparts or people doing the equivalent kind of work at other schools. And it's very much how can we do this together? And that's so healthy and inspiring. And we have a wonderful liaison with the Department of Education with social studies with whom we're working closely and are very excited about the possibilities. And everything takes time and every school has its ways of doing things. And we're just going to be patient and steady and active. And we have a lot still to do that. We're just getting our toes wet as we speak. Yeah. I think the educators listening, you know, sometimes it is that sense of like, what's the flavor of the month? And, okay, we're going to be doing this six months. We're going to be doing it in two or three years. And we're fortunate enough to be funded in perpetuity. So as long as there's a part of school, there's going to be a data democracy initiative. And so that really gives us a very long horizon for thinking about effecting change, both at our school and in partnership with other schools. And the knowledge to say that if it doesn't happen this academic year, well, let's plan really well for next year. And, you know, if a visitor has a busy calendar for 24 months, we can, you know, flip the calendar pages even further back. And that's given us a great deal of freedom and a great deal of creativity to design things with a really long tail. We have an email chain right now of 53 messages just trying to book one person. And then other people, you know, it's one, two, three. So there's, there are a lot of details behind the scenes. And we are so grateful to Mark and Jamie Davis for giving us this opportunity to bring education to another level. And I'm going to ask you about Mark and Jamie Davis in just a moment. But, you know, I'm really impressed that you talked about, you know, having speakers much like the Keebles chair. The Keebles chair, the person comes in and spends a week with the faculty and like their time is, you know, is well spent because they're always with the kids, they're always with the faculty. And that's a good model that you mentioned, David, and I, and that collaboration is really great too, not only just with Yolani, but with other places. And I would be remiss if I didn't mention that the, that was the brainchild of a really wonderful assistant headmaster named Charlie Proctor. And it gives me great pleasure to see that both of you are developing this program. And you're within the first year, you haven't even finished a year. So my heart goes out to you because I know what that's like. And the other question, I'm going to ask you about the Davis family now, both of you, and tell me why they did this because, you know, you know, in other programs, like in the Puyo program, it was the Clarence T.C. Ching Foundation and other really, you know, wonderful funders, you know, including Unbound Philanthropy, etc., etc. But tell me a bit about them, but why is it happening now? Because is there a confluence or a synergy with the advent of the historian Mike Latham being president, Dr. Mike Latham? Because I think that that seems to me to be a logical fit. But, you know, I'm just, I'm an outsider. You guys know both best. I'll stop and ask you those questions. One about the Davis family, and the other is about Mike Latham. Well, the one I think Mark Davis would be a great guest on this show. I think you'd really enjoy talking to him, let him speak for herself. But when I've heard him tell this story, and I think it's a pretty empowering one, I think he was maybe yelling at his television. And I think, I think JD was also at the room, and she said, well, what are you going to do about it? And I think you're right. I think we have an administration here at Punahau. You know, this is, democracy building is, you know, is my scholarly interest as well. And so Dr. Mike Latham, I think was was a really receptive ear to this idea. Doing a, you know, talking about politics is hard. Building consensus is hard. And I don't, I don't get the emails that Dr. Latham gets, right? But I know that every decision that he makes is not equally welcomed by every member of our community. Right. And so I think he feels these pressures as an administrator, I think every school administrator feels these pressures about the last three years that we came out of with the pandemic. I mean, it's been very hard for consensus building. And so I think the value and we really feel that strength of support from the Davises, from the administration at Punahau, I've got to say the number of folks who put their hands in the air, from other educators to folks in the law and justice community to the non-governmental organizations, just impassioned citizens who want to be a part of this has been, really gives you a lot of hope for the future. And I think that Aloha spirit here in Hawaii, we live in a very distinct place. And so to be able to do this work at this place informed by everything that makes Hawaii distinct, I just think it's a, I think it's a tremendous burden to what we're doing. Dan, would you like to add anything? I want to also, Oh, thank you. Oh, I mean, I agree with everything that Dave said. And I do think that that, that story about the Mark Davis throwing a shoe at the TV and his wife saying, well, don't just do that. Do something about it. I mean, we all have our personal turning points and the way that they have turned frustration with our, our political system. And maybe the lack of exchange of ideas in a civil manner is, is really heartwarming and generous and uplifting. And the way that our president, Mike Latham, who is a scholar of US foreign relations and looks at democracy in various countries in his monographs. And, and it is teaching and he teaches AP US history while being president of Punahou. His support for this was just unequivocal from the start. And that is a fantastic position for us to be in as we attempt to convince people, right? There are always some skeptics like they're too busy to pay attention. And, and we, we know that we have support. We know that we have means. We know that we have allies in various different places. And it's very exciting. Well, I'm going to leave the last, well, let me ask you one last question. And that is, do you teach other classes besides the class you collaborate in together or and that's plenty enough, but do you teach other classes also at Punahou? We do. We each teach three classes each semester. And then we have the remainder of the time devoted to the Davis Democracy Initiative. This was very important to us. We believe that we should be always in the classroom so that we can converse with our colleagues and collaborate with them, always understand what it feels like to be a teacher in the trenches, managing the multiple demands. And I'm teaching European history and senior capstone at community service course this semester. And I'll be teaching European history and bias in America next semester. Thanks, Carmen. That's great. And David, you? I teach in the art department, the English department, the social studies department. I'm really interested in the connections between those classes. I teach a course in visual storytelling, which is my other life, my scholarly life. And then I teach bias in America with Pam in the spring. And I teach our honors class in the English department. I'm trained as an English scholar. And I moonlight as a civics teacher. And so it's a course that's really interested in the relationship between the self and society and how we do it in the magic of literature, I think is really, really important. One of the things that I've learned in doing this work is there's not one way for a student to become an activist. They can be a public writer. They can be an artist. They can be interested in direct aid. They can be interested in consciousness raising. They can be writing testimony at the legislature. They can be educating themselves about the issues, right? They can be reading the newspaper every day. There are a thousand different ways to get up this hill. And we're going to need everybody's talent. And we're going to need everybody's time and everybody's energy if we're going to solve some of these big global problems that we have. And obviously working with young people, I think they're going to get us there. We're going to hand off these big problems to these young people. And I think they're going to start working on solving. So I have a great deal of hope just in the short time that we've been running this initiative. So I'm going to leave you both with a story about each one of you so that our audience can know a little bit about you more personally. I happened to encounter David with his lovely wife at a restaurant called et al. And there he was supervising a wonderful daughter's birthday party. And you can see not only the great scholar in him, but you can see the dad in him. And with Pam, I've been at some of her readings. And Pam is a very modest woman but has written really wonderful books. And I'm not going to say monograph because I think it's the books that you have written apply to our general audience. And so I appreciate your scholarship. I don't know how you do. Each of you is really doing two jobs, not one. And I appreciate you. Again, thank you to David Ball and Dr. David Ball. And thank you to Dr. Pamela Sakamoto. Thank you very much for being a guest here on Journeys of the Mind. Thank you very much, Dr. Ackerman. I really appreciate it.