 Let's kill your parents. I'm here to kill your parents, so what happened? I did it. Hey, it's Dr. Phil here. Please subscribe to the behavior panel. Yeah. Be careful. There we go. I'm Scott Rouse. I'm a body language expert and analyst and I train law enforcement in the military in interrogation and body language. I created the number one online body language course, BodyLanguageTactics.com with Greg Hartley. Mark? I'm Mark Bowden. I'm an expert in human behavior and body language. I help people all over the world to stand out, win trust, and gain credibility every time they communicate, including some of the leaders of the G7. Chase? Hi, I'm Chase Hughes. I did 20 years in the U.S. military. I train civilians and intelligence operations specialists in interrogation, behavior profiling, persuasion, and influence. And I publish five books on the same. Greg? Greg Hartley. I'm a former Army interrogator, interrogation instructor, resistance to interrogation instructor, written 10 books on body language and behavior. Put together this number one body language tactics course with Scott at BodyLanguageTactics.com. Spend most of my time on Wall Street and corporate America. Before we get started, remember the bingo card. The link is in the comments. Go find it. Get the bingo card because this is going to be a good episode for it. Yeah. And also this week we're on Dr. Phil's podcast, Fill in the Blanks. And it's PHIL for Phil, Fill in the Blanks. And you can listen to it on Apple podcast, Spotify, and where else do we say? Is it on YouTube yet? I don't know if it. You think it is, Chase? I think it is. Yeah. Okay, I haven't seen it on there. Check it out. Try and find it. And while you're doing that, subscribe. Why not? It's free. It won't hurt. Do it. Press the button. Yeah. Just push the red button. Become a panelist with us by subscribing. All right. We're going to talk about Erin Caffee. And she, Greg, why don't you, you found the videos. Tell us. Yeah. So Erin Caffee was convicted of killing her family. Now I'm just going to give you the mechanics. You go back and you look at the rest of the details. This is an interview. Dr. Phil did a while back. There's another one with Piers Morgan. Did one as well in Killer Women. She had a boyfriend and somebody's going to tell me I missed some details. Okay. But I'm going to give you the best I have. She had a boyfriend and his friends kill her mother, two brothers and attempt to kill her father and burn the house down. Now she will give you her story. And Dr. Phil does a pretty good job of asking her questions and getting details. And you'll get to see who she is. But in the end, she's in prison. I don't know the story of the rest. And you can write those down and we can put them in the comments for what happened to the rest of the folks. And there's a lot of other video out there, not just about her, but you can go find a lot about the Erin Caffee case. Had her family killed, they didn't manage to kill her father. They did kill her two younger brothers and her mother and burn the house down. That's it. Okay. All right, we're good? Yeah. Good. Here we go. Tell me how this all happened. I met Charlie and things were going good. My mother and father didn't really like him. Right. And the first time he ever mentioned, you know, that he wanted to kill my parents was, you know, after Christmas that he had gave me a ring proposed to me and my parents, you know, didn't want us to. And it was a promise ring, not an engagement ring, right? All right, Chase, what do you got? This is a great way to start this off. Greg picked this clip. And I think it's wonderful that we're seeing from the kind of the outset of this interview that Dr. Phil is matching her behavior. He's leaned forward. His hands are under the table just like hers are. And he doesn't ask her a question. He gives her a command. He says, tell me how this all happened. And this is something that I tend to do in an interrogation room where I'm testing the compliance status or where that person is from on a compliance standpoint, and he gets a wonderful compliance from her. And I think he's careful not to use the word but in here. So he uses the word and instead of but, which is wonderful tool for anybody that's communicating. When she's saying kill and parents, I think she's forcing those words out. I'm sure you guys will talk about that and what that means. But I want to give you a quick fact about psychopaths. They are clinically proven not to be better at deception than the average person. They do it more often, but that doesn't make them better at it. There are technically, there's five studies that say that they're better at verbal deception only. But once a nonverbal component is introduced or a polygraph, they do just about the same as everybody else. And you'll see where this is going here in the next few videos. Scott. All right. Yeah, this is this is an excellent example. An excellent example of a psychopath. Everybody's always asking about him. This is a wonderful one. So because what we're seeing is she's totally trying. She's trying to totally control her demeanor and her delivery with everything. And she's controlling what she's trying to deliver and show what she thinks a normal person looks like. What what that normal behavior would be. But just by watching her, we know automatically something's not right here. That little feeling you get inside in your gut. That's telling you everything. You're not quite sure what it is yet. Let me tell you why you feel that way. But you know something's wrong. So that that control makes her talk at a specific volume. As we go through this, her baseline is this. When she's being getting nailed for telling a lie and she doesn't want to say what it is. She always doesn't say it. She she doesn't. She'll move her mouth, but she won't say the words out loud. She whispers them. So that that goes all the way down to it's reminiscent of being a child and getting in trouble when you get in trouble, you get real quiet and you don't say a whole thing. What's going to happen? You don't know how much to say. And her face is expressionless. She's we're going to see some great examples of where she mimics what she's heard other people say and use the expressions and the fake excitement that she's seen other people use. This is perfect for that. Again, I want to grab some stuff out of here and use it in training as well. So the tone of her voice and the volume of her voice lets us know she's controlling that output and to leave as the right output to give in this situation. She's trying to seem respectful. She's trying to talk quiet to Dr. Phil. And he's, you know, in person, he's pretty big guy. You know, he's a tall guy. And so that girl doesn't look. I don't know how tall she is, but with the pictures of seeing her dad, then have him see her dad walk out on that show. I don't think he's very tall. So he's almost towering over, but we'll see him at some point scooched down to get on eye level with her, which is a great move. The little smile she shows, that's sort of the, um, a fake joy to prove she has a proof of acceptance, in other words. So it shows that she's, um, she's smiling and she's hoping to be accepted. It's almost like the request for approval situation we have there. But that little smile we see, that's what, that's what her joy of proof of acceptance says she talks about that. So, uh, Greg, what do you got? So a couple of things. Um, yes, psychopaths are a couple of things we know about psychopaths as well. And now I'll, I'll quote a study or a timeframe, 2018 Cardiff and Swansea universities did a study. And the one thing that they found interesting is that pupil dilation, which we do when we see a good thing or when we see a dangerous thing only occurs in psychopaths when they see good things or whatever makes them happy. When there's fear, a fear inducing thing, no dilation. That's an interesting thing. Watch this girl's eyes throughout all this stress. Watch her pupils. I kept looking for it. Like, hey, hopefully there's some pinpointing and not, nope, nothing. That's number one. She's set. There are a couple of things here that I'm going to point out and one of them that I find really interesting is the smile. But she's braced. She's leaned in that chair. She's got her feet against the legs of the chair. She's got her arms between and under the table so she can move her hands without you seeing them. And she makes eye lock. We usually call the romance or I'll call this the creeper. There's nothing, she's not paying positive attention to you. She's paying all attention to you. And she's focused on him like crazy. I always say the organism does what made the organism successful. This girl, this has been what she's done with her parents, what she's done with authority, the yes sir. She's doing front of the mouth talking and I don't use this very often on here, but when people are being contrite that front of the mouth talking, when they're angry, the back of the mouth talking, the power, listen to it. She's contrite. She's trying to make him fall for whatever it is she does. Now I'm also going to tell you that people can rationalize all kinds of things in their head. I've talked to terrorists who rationalize what they've done or to bad guys who rationalize what they've done because they feel like they're justified in doing it. Might be some of that going on this girl's head. Don't know. I'm not trying to put it in their head what's there. But I feel when I'm sitting across the table from somebody like this, I feel a facade because it's locked down, it's tight, everything's gripped. Her body language is all controlled. And usually when I see that, there's a lot of something boiling inside that person I'm talking to. So what you're trying to do is find that little facade crack every now and then. And I think that smile is a crack. I think that when she is busted, she does it. We're going to see later in here a normal, there's one line of baseline for her with her friends in this place when she says something later, like I think we've already established that. That's her normal speech pattern. We're not going to see it any other time through here, I think. And I think she's locked down. She's eye-locked. You know what her blink rate is on my page? Her blink rate is yesterday she blinked. She hasn't blinked in this whole damn thing. The only time she blinks is for eye-blocking and very specifically, Chase, I love that you pointed out, she tells with emphasis, kill my parents. And when she does, she doesn't just do that. Her eyelids go kill my parents. Watch it. It is telling. It's powerful. And then as she talks about, the guy was proposing to her. Her lips come forward in a condemning kind of a purse. And then her eyes block again. And then she talks about her boyfriend. Her chin rises slightly as if she's indignant. The sides of her mouth are down. And that's anger. And then that slight smile at the promise ring. That's all that is not congruent body language for, I feel bad about what happened to my parents. Not one of us. The emphasis is in all the wrong places. Or as you would say in language, emphasis on the wrong syllable. That kind of thing always means something to me. So I see a mess. Mark, what do you got? Yeah. So I agree with everything that I've heard there. Let me add a few more things. When she talks about her parents didn't like him, we get a draw in of breath. Why do you draw air in? Because you're going to do something. There's going to be some action is going to happen. She doesn't move. She really is locked down there. But we see the psychology of the parents didn't like him. Something had to be done. Okay. So we see the action happening. She doesn't move. She's locked down. Sometimes people don't move very much because their prefrontal cortex is damaged in some way. She's a pianist. Actually, I went and found out she plays piano. So her prefrontal cortex in terms of the motor is going to be pretty good. So that's not why she's so still. Totally agree. Dr. Phil, mirroring really well there. Clearly purposeful. Lowering his physical status as well. Good technique to use there. She's calm. The calmness is definitely hers. That's her personality. Pretty dangerous personality. But the calm belongs to her. And the voice and the demeanor I would suggest throughout is childlike to Greg's point. That I believe is a persona that she puts on because it gets her what she wants. The more she acts like a child, the more compliance she gets from people around her. On proposed, Greg, you said an eye block. I'm going to push that a little bit further. I think that is a blink of a slow blink of acceptance. And what it's to say is, and that's final. I think it's a slow blink of finality. This kind of personality deals with final solutions, final ideas. He proposed, then it's done. The parents don't like that. Well, we need a final solution around that then. So great introduction. Just in that first short clip there, so much going on. Let's see what we've got coming next. I'm done with that one. What I think is funny here, guys, is this one, if you just look at it for face value when people say, where is body language? A lot of people would just look and go, yeah, I'm not going to watch that. But when you really look, wow. Right. Well, the very fact that nothing's happening, she's not moving. Yeah, exactly. Okay. Tell me how this all happened. I met Charlie, and things were going good. My mother and father didn't really like him. Right. And the first time he ever mentioned, you know, that he wanted to kill my parents was, you know, after Christmas, that he had gave me a ring proposed to me, and my parents, you know, didn't want us to. And it was a promise ring, not an engagement ring, right? Yes, it was a promise. You said that he brought up killing your parents, right? Yes, he did. Why was that necessary in his mind? I don't know. I guess he said it out of anger the first time, because me and my mom got into a fight. So it was two months, plus a little bit. Yes, sir. That this had been talked about. Yes, sir. Did at any time during that two months, did you say, well, wait a minute, why didn't he kill my parents? I really didn't think that he would follow through with it. I would just ask him questions like, how, I mean, how would you do that? You know, instead of just saying, whoa, whoa, whoa, stop. Yeah. There we go. All right. Greg, what do you got? So not a lot. I'm just going to hit a couple of issues here because she's doing the same thing. She's doing this from the mouth talking. Yes, sir. And she's doing that kind of coy little game that she's doing. And she's eye locked in a way that she's not, you're not going to see much break from this. The only break is when he goes to his notes, her eyes go down to the notes too. Something is there and that's the threat. He's not the threat to her. The threat's there. It tells me she's probably done this enough times with this kind of personality and the way she's front mouth talking and doing all that, that she's comfortable with him or thinks she should be. And she's talking to the principal. The thing for me that's interesting, if you said to me, Chase, say I'm going to kill your parents. I'm not going to ask you how. I'm going to say why first off and then say no, but I wouldn't ask you how would you do it? And I think she's saying what she asked. Hey, how would you kill my parents? Just my own perception. If we follow this through, she's going to do the eye lock. We call it the romance or she's paying attention to him to make sure that whatever he does, she's locked in on and she doesn't give away anything. Pretty powerful body language for a person this age. You usually don't see it quite that pronounced. Chase, what do you got? Yeah, I agree with Greg. And one thing you see here right at the beginning. So when this clip plays again, you'll be able to see this. The moment she discovers the data point that Phil is asking about here, the moment she discovers what her boyfriend said to her, you can see her go from looking down to locking immediately on to Dr. Phil and saying, okay, I'm on. We're recording now. The camera's on. So you see her make that immediate shift and it's very marked. There is immediate mouth closure following her saying yes, confirming yes. The mouth shuts back again. There's more word coughing, whatever we want to call that, like forcing those words out. Like just in the last video, kill and parents, this one is word coughing at anger. And there's more of that when she's nodding and she said, I didn't think they would follow through with it. There's a nod there with those. So one data point here that I want you to take a look at since you're a panelist, this can go into the rest of your life. Using past perfect in a normal way where how it should be used. So this gives me as an interrogator, she's going into past perfect when I say I did all this because my mom had told me something. So that had is a shift to past perfect tense. So now I'm knowing when I'm listening to her language, I know that she understands the proper usage of it. So now I can say later on if it's used in a weird way, that's a good data point for me. So this shift, this immediate, serious and directed shift of attention towards Phil at the beginning when she knows the subject is a hallmark for psychopathy or what we call antisocial personality disorder. And as we're going through these videos, I'm going to drop a few of these little hallmarks and what they are from this book right here. This is the DSM-5. It's kind of the Bible for diagnosing mental disorders. I'm not making a diagnosis. I'm giving you my opinion based on this book. One hallmark I'll give you right away before I pass this over to Mark is absence of affect. So a strong lack of emotion or emotional responsiveness to an emotional event can trigger an average or normal person. So we see that here. We see hallmark number one and hallmark two with the eye shifting. So Mark. Yeah, so good call. Let me talk a little bit more about the emotions that we do or do not see there. We see Dr. Phil put on what we call cognitive empathy. He has empathy for her that she should have said, well, you know, let's not go down that route. And he acts it out quite well. Like he becomes kind of emotionally engaged with that. He's an entertainer. So his empathy level will be actually quite high. He'll be able to do emotions on purpose, act them out. And we see that with him. Now she's telling the story, I think of how her boyfriend at the time was probably upset that she'd had an argument with her mom. So she's transferred any feeling over to the boyfriend. And now the boyfriend is acting out the feeling. She's got no feeling. She talks about no feeling about the situation herself. She transfers feeling to the boyfriend. But then she doesn't perform any of that feeling. She doesn't even act it out. It's left to Dr. Phil to kind of fill in the blanks there and go, oh, well, like, there must be a feeling involved here. I mean, we're all human beings here together. So I better entertain the audience by putting in a feeling. There must have been a feeling there. Well, and, you know, an entertainment is all about feelings. What audiences are obsessed with is what are the relationships between other human beings? And therefore, what is that audience members relationship to human beings? And we do that via the feelings. And if we're not getting any feelings, we're like, this is boring. Like, what am I here to watch? So Dr. Phil, great entertainer. He goes, OK, I'll stick in a feeling here. I think there aren't any feelings there. That's the issue there. It's very hard for her to even in this situation perform the feelings of somebody else. Now, we may see some further down the line, but to Chase's point around the use of language there, I want you to notice that we've had two excerpts already. There's been no use of metaphor so far, no use of an idea that something is something else, no use of simile, that something is just like something else. It's all about the structure of things right now. All about the events that happened, not about why they would happen or even the feelings that somebody would have if and when they happened. It's all about the structure of objects right now. And again, if you're searching your DSM-5, you'll find that that idea of being more structural rather than relational can at some times hint towards antisocial personality disorders of all kinds of descriptions. I think that's all I have on that one. Scott, what do you got? All right, if I were to walk in during this and just as things started, I was a cameraman or I was something, you know, the audio guy or something to walk in, but know what I know, this would be the part that scared me to death because I would wonder, I would hope Dr. Phil would know that she's a psychopath at this point or what he's dealing with because what we see here is we're talking about hallmarks, here's one for you where she says, when she says how would you do that? She breaks into something, exactly what she's heard. That is imitation and it just jumps out as she delivers it without any problem whatsoever. And here's what that means. Psychopaths have no empathy, they have no feelings. To make a long story short, part of their brain doesn't work so it doesn't allow them to have these feelings. The amygdala, they're about as big as almonds and they're part of the Olympic system. They're either damaged, they're missing or they're just not working correctly. I hate to rush through that but it takes forever to get to the intricacies of that. So they can't, they don't have the feelings to describe something, they don't have the feelings to which goes back to part of what Mark was saying, they don't have the feelings to show a descriptive, a good descriptive feeling of something. So what she's done, like most psychopaths do, she's practiced saying that before. She's said that several times in her life. She's heard somebody whether it was five years ago or two years ago and it was a girl because she's saying it from a feminine aspect. How would you do that? Listen to the way she talks up to that point and it's like a chunk has been dropped in there and it goes back to normal from there on out. When those things pop up like that and you see that expression in her face all tight like that, she's just firing off the imitation of someone else doing that which she's rehearsed and knows. Now I think also there's something wrong, not just the problem with the amygdala, I think there's something wrong with her frontal lobe in the synapse department because as we go through this we're going to see these movements of hers are almost like a robot. You see little birds and little birds look around, they look around real quick and they have little jumpy movements because that's their brain firing off synapses that make those things happen really quickly. These girls are so slow when she blinks I think that's what's going on with their blinking. That's why they're so slow. I agree with the guys on the earlier stuff, I agree with what you said on that. However, I think the additive to the problem with her synapses in her brain are so, something's not right in there with it. I don't know how to explain that correctly but something, the firing mechanism in there isn't correct. In a little while we're going to see her look up real slow almost like she's in a scary movie because again she doesn't look up at normal speed because I think there's a synapse situation going on there. Something that's hindering that for her. That's all, that's all, as in-depth as I'll get on that part of it, I'll get too fired up. All right, am I good? Yeah. You said that he brought up killing your parents, right? Why was that necessary in his mind? I don't know. I guess he said it out of anger the first time because me and my mom got into a fight. So it was two months plus a little bit that this had been talked about? Yes, sir. Did at any time during that two months did you say, well, wait a minute, would he kill my parents? I really didn't think that he would follow through with it. I would just ask him questions like, how, I mean, how would you do that? You know, instead of just saying, whoa, whoa, whoa, stop. All right. Let's fast forward to that night. How does this go down on the night that it happened? We had talked at school that morning and he said, you know, just let's, let's kill your parents. It will, you know, run away to Maine together and everything will be okay. I'll call my friend and I'll come pick you up at 12 and that night around 1145, I knew he was out there so I made a phone call. I said, when it were you at and he said, well, hurry up and get out here and hung up. So I walked out the house and picked up my little dog buddy and was petting him all the way to the end of the driveway. Before I knew it, there was a car that came and it was Bobby and Charles. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, sure. Okay. So look, as a good generalization, most murders are going to be crimes of passion and they will, it's a fair bet that they come out of anger and people not being able to moderate their anger. You'll have heard it time and time again, like I saw red and then, you know, suddenly they were dead in front of me and I don't know what happened and often it really is the case. People don't know what happened. They couldn't moderate their behavior. It all kicked off. Okay. So here's what happens here. She transfers any emotion. There's no anger there. She goes, well, we talked about it at school and my boyfriend and she does give an emotion but she does the rhythm of excitement, excitement around it. Now, if you were really trying to create a decent story, you'd go for anger. I don't think she quite realizes that most murders happen out of anger. She goes, hey, I think it would be best if my boyfriend were excited around this. I'll do the rhythm of excitement because it's only the rhythm, okay? Her tonality doesn't really change enough. It's still childlike and then we see the eyebrows raised for approval to Dr. Phil going, hey, isn't that the emotion that you were looking for? You believe me, don't you? People get super excited about killing other people. So that's how it went down. Isn't that really credible? No, it's not credible at all. That doesn't happen. Well, I mean, it's almost a one-off case but just so you know, young females rarely, rarely, rarely, rarely ever, ever, ever kill their family. Doesn't happen. It's super, super rare and she doesn't even know what emotion to ascribe to most murders out there. She certainly doesn't know what to ascribe to this very, very unique situation here. So eyebrows of approval there looking for isn't that a really good emotional motivator for this? I don't know Dr. Phil's expression because we don't get to see it but just so you know, that's really quite odd to pick excitement and emotional motivator for a murder and transfer it to somebody else and not say here's what I was feeling at the time I guess my partner at the time was feeling this. Anyway, that's what I got for you. Greg, what do you got? Yeah. So guys, I'm not sure there's not a lot of control and there's more going on here than you can see. I think there's a lot of lockdown. This person has a lot of control over what they're doing. I'm not giving her brilliance by any stretch so don't hear that when I say this. This is adapting under the table. People don't adapt if they don't have something to be afraid of. I see concern in the brow for a split second. I see those muscles engage and then she goes into storytelling and how you can tell that this is rehearsed and she knows what she's going to say is the cadence changes. You know, Scott talks about loping. This is a cadence shift. You listen, bump, bump, bump, bump, bump to everything else she's done. Then when she says 1145 this is cognizant of somebody with a request for approval and they do that kind of taffy pulling with their eyes. They're drawing you in. That's uncharacteristic to now with the eye draw and that brow up and that head shaking. No, as she asks you. It was 1145. She's poking because she's got a storyline that she's trying to stick to. And if you go read the backstory on this thing, guys and I'm not, you don't need to read the backstory to know she's lying but go read the backstory. There's a lot of mechanics in here. She also goes a little distaste when she brings up, I picked up my little dog buddy. Well, you would think that would bring her joy but there's a reason because one of the things that they say in the case that they held her accountable for is silencing the dogs so these guys could get in the house. Big deal. And then she says, some of my favorite things before I knew it. Before I knew it is the same as and then doesn't mean you're lying but it damn sure gives you an opportunity to cover up information to cover up time. That's what I got. Scott, what do you got? All right. Yeah, I was going to cover that thing with the dog as well because earlier they showed when they showed up the dog woke the dad up started barking and stuff. So when she says she picked up her dog her little dog buddy and goes out and that tongue comes out she's relating that anger to that. Again, she's using what she thinks would look normal as an expression there when she says when she starts explaining what's happening that really quick stuff. What I found interesting was this and you see this a lot when someone is trying to make the story they're telling they don't have a lot of information to give you but they're hiding a lot in this case where she says he said we'd run away together that ur at the end making that word longer it's sort of form of verbal bridging but it's adding weight and length and time to what happened when he said we'd run away together like there's a lot of explanation that came with that he says I'll call my friend so like as a big story came with that probably didn't and then I'll pick you up at 12 and the 12 went on for a long time that's her adding to these things the weight and the depth that isn't there to those but again these are all these are all classics for the psychopath the expression nothing really there until she gets into the explanation and she starts mimicking expressions she's seen somewhere else so that's I mean there's not much more from that aspect I mean there's the intricacies of the neurological side of it Jase you want to get into that? Yeah I think in the provable parts in the parts that she's talking about that are probably provable like making a phone call and meeting someone outside we see more, slightly more animation and more, a little bit more variation in speech and it's very minute her face is a little more animated than normal there and another use of past perfect correctly using past perfect and I think when you guys are talking about the dog here in her mind she's thinking good people pet dogs normal people think good people pet dogs I'm going to make sure I put that in there I'm going to make sure to tell his name because people say their dog's name all the time and I'm going to talk about petting him the whole way back to the pickup truck and I think Greg absolutely agree with you there's some hiding time in there when she says before I knew it it's a perfect way to say that so let's talk about a quick psychopathy hallmark here lack of remorse or guilt and this typically goes back to a lack of what they call inhibitory emotions so Scott's talking with the amygdala we're lacking these emotions in this area that are inhibitory in their nature so we see a lot of that here and we'll talk about another one next time let's fast forward to that night how does this go down on the night that it happened we had talked at school that morning and she said just let's let's kill your parents we'll run away to Maine together and everything will be okay I'll call my friend come pick you up at 12 and that night around 1145 I knew he was out there so I made a phone call I said you know where you at and he said well hurry up and get out here and hung up so I walked out the house and picked up my little dog buddy and was petting him all the way to the end of the driveway before I knew it there was a car that came and it was Bobby and Charles so you're outside and he says you're here to kill your parents so what happened I go to get in the car you know have no shoes on no nothing and he's griping at me for not having you know being ready you know and not having my bags or anything then we drive down to like this front down church we were trying to get out of it oh just run away but you know they kept begging me on about you know and I just guessing we were like feeding into it so did you finally say okay you finally said okay go kill my parents my father the woman that brought me into the world people that have fed me and clothed me and housed me and loved me every day of my life sure go kill them all right Greg what do you got so my notes right here say with all the emotion of a snake you're talking about this whole thing that is getting your parents killed typically we associate what's going to happen when you're talking about the act of having your parents killed with shame and if you go look today and you try to study shame there's no universal single set of things that people will agree because indicators of shame but one of the things that we do know is typically people break eye contact they will try to hide something they show embarrassment or sadness or combination of other emotions usually what I might one of my great indicators in pre-confession is chin protecting the throat because that is when people start to show shame we don't see any of that her chin is up the only shame I see in her is disappointing her fill at one point here that's a really creepy place for that disappointment to be but you can see it kind of that drop to the sides of her mouth and that when she realizes that he's judging her because walk through she's doing that romance her eyes are riveted she doesn't break eye contact there's a lot of her talking with her chin up and her eyes locked pulled down corners of her mouth but when she starts to tell the story interestingly she's storytelling about being griped and those pieces but when it comes to the pertinent stuff about deciding whether somebody got killed or not the narration kind of turns to just a bunch of stuff mark you'll call it probably word salad but it's stammering and stattering there's not a subject or an object there's just stuff or if you don't know what subject and object mean there's not a do or a done to there's just a lot of talking and we can't really tell exactly what's going on then she starts the blame sharing of using the pronoun say instead of I and she tries to she starts to try to answer one of his questions but when he starts stepping on her about her mother and killing her family she defers and backs up I wonder what she was going to say it wouldn't have been brilliant guarantee you but I don't this is not there's no remorse whatsoever here regardless whether she has emotion or not and she does show an indicator that she doesn't like disappointing him but she certainly shows no emotion about this whole getting her their peace Mark what do you got yeah so I'm not sure if she did show up in her bare feet and not with a case packed or I don't know enough details of this maybe you want to tell me below but let's just follow this idea that that is the case okay well that she might be telling that story because it serves the idea of I'm an innocent child okay but also in many disorders of her kind or associated disorders planning isn't great and so it goes against this idea of the psychopath being an incredible mastermind being able to see the big big picture and be able to sort stuff out no it's not entirely true what more likely happens is events just happen right in front of people's faces and they react there and then often they're not that good at organizing and preparing now that's not to say if you know you haven't got your case packed for your holiday on time that you're psychopathic okay could be all kinds of reasons for that but events seem to just come straight at people and they deal with them there and then there's not a lot of idea around the future or there's very much the now so it does seem to fit if it is the case and I don't know whether it is that she's just kind of there going yeah I really haven't prepared for this but it seems like the time has come to kill the family here we are let's do it let's go for that that's not particularly unusual for what we suspect this personality type to be now there's all kinds of other kind of neural differences that you might have come across where there's some similarities there the ability not to not to prepare so don't equate you know don't equate everything that we're saying with okay has to be a psychopath that's why you know an actual diagnosis is a pretty long process that doesn't mean you know sitting in your armchair you can't make your own kind of diagnosis and you may well be right okay you may well be right and that's not just because you know a clock is right you know a couple of times a day okay it's because you may well be right just because you don't know everything doesn't mean you can't have an opinion and your opinion might not be might not be absolutely accurate and correct so go ahead have your opinions they're often correct it's good fun it's good fun to have an opinion Scott what do you got alright this is a rehearsed answer she's told a thousand times because in this case you would have since she got she was arrested she's been through a court she's been through the whole thing been interrogated several times I'm sure and so this is something she's told a thousand times and we hear a hint of anger when she's talking about being told to hurry now keep in mind that's the reason she had one of the reasons she had her try to have her father killed and the rest of her family because they messed whether they like she her complaint was that the little boys were picking on her which is what little boys do her father was too bossy and was too stringent with her but that's what fathers do to girls that age they you have to try to keep that situation under control especially when there are boys around those types of things but she's rushing through it so she can pass over the details that aren't there she's rushing right through there and leaving out where there should be all this these things going on there's nothing happening because nothing was there so she rushes past it but makes tries to make it sound like there was a lot going on by linking the words like oh just run away again this lengthening of time and putting weight behind what she's saying the words they kept egging me on and it was the other one this so that to give you idea what it is and that and at that point that's what I jump in with it like the the it's almost like a fake accusation of contradiction at that point having been in similar situations to this if you say hold at that point if your demeanor is as you've been pretty straightforward and you're talking like Dr. Phil you stop and you go and you bring your hand and you go hold on a minute you just contradicted yourself and you make them think when they start thinking about how they contradicted themselves that's when you scoot in with your next question to make them move from that and that plants that little brain little mind virus in there so they keep worrying about what they did because they think you're going to go back to that in a minute that would make her story which is going by so fast would slow that down and give you time to jump in there in between those pauses and ask stuff as it came along it's hard to explain but that's that's a tactic that works like a charm if you've never used it before so there's a little something for you there so yeah gosh I love it I'll stop there that's what I got I think this whole thing is it begins with a great indicator of cooperation Dr. Phil asks a question to put her deliberately into present tense in her statement and she answers in present tense so she's no longer recalling these events in past tense his question and how it was phrased was enough to influence her response so this is a good indicator of cooperation and compliance here even though she's not aware that it's happening and she uses the words you know to fill all these potholes in her story and Scott absolutely agree when people are talking like this like there's so much they're trying to convey there's a whole lot of information here it's just such a long list I don't have time to go through all these details like we went to go get laundry and then I had to go do the dishes I mean there's just so much that I couldn't even tell you the rest of the list and she's more focused with her words as she describes being encouraged to do it so the words become less generic more specific down there and I'm just going to wrap this up with a quick another hallmark here no affect no emotional response no emotional affect there's two separate ones a lack of empathy of emotional affect are very very similar but there are two separate check items on the checklist for psychopathy or antisocial personality disorder and this is called in the DSM this is called shallow affect this little checklist item that's all we got right is that everybody yeah that's it one book to check out it would be by Robert Herron it's called without conscience it's a great book and it goes into detail on the psychopath and it's presented in a way that you can take it in easily you don't have to be you know really brilliant mind psychology or anything get that book it's called without conscience you'll love it so you're outside and he says I'm here to kill your parents so what happened I was in the car you know had no shoes on no nothing and he's grabbing at me for not having you know being ready you know and not having my bags or anything then we drive down to like this front down church we were trying to get out of it oh just run away but you know they kept begging me on about you know and I just guessing we were like feeding into it so did you finally say okay you finally said okay go kill my parents my mother and my father they fed me and clothed me and housed me and loved me every day of my life sure go kill them you see yeah the other three say they were trying to get you to run away but that you emphatically insisted that your family be killed that's what they all say isn't that the truth alright I'll go first on this one this is pretty scary I mean the music behind it's pretty scary but when you look at this girl and she looks up that slowly like that holy smokes and that's what I'm talking about it looks like a robot looks like almost when you see someone where they run video backwards of somebody who's looking down you know that it looks like they're looking up because they run the backwards forwards or however you say it correctly we're seeing a little micro expression here too I think she's trying to hold back I think she's trying I think what we're seeing is not the not contempt but I think she's trying to hold back a smile so I think she's subconsciously pushing that maybe not subconsciously I think she's trying to push her mouth down so she doesn't smile this is creepy stuff here and those eyes, those blinks are real slow this is what I'm talking about something's not right in there, something's not firing correctly or fully with her I think it goes it shows it matches her intellect I think at this point because I don't think it's I don't think it's all you're running shiny and everything as well so I think this is there's not a whole lot to say from my perspective on that except for I think she's trying to hide that hide a smile in there we'll see that a couple of the times too alright Greg what do you got I think this girl is a ball of anger a real ball of anger that's just been contained and that's the relationship she has with the organism whether it's her parents or school or whatever I'll bet when she's with her friends she's chatty she's one of those kind of folks I think she's a lot more animated than we see here I think this is the organism has learned how to deal with authority or whatever authority is and she's balled up in there and that crack I think what you're seeing Scott is a crack in that yeah I mean that anger I think that's the emotion she has is anger that's what I sense in her and it's just sense I see little forehead involvement her eyes close when he says that it's what they all say she does a close I don't do much of that I just I see I've interrogated people like this before and they seem calm until you touch the right button and then the next thing you know you're defending yourself because they come across the table they come and buckled I don't think this girl I think she's her whole life she's that tall I think her whole life she's probably not been that violent person and she found a way to be that violent person so that's what I see but I'm looking is when he's talking to her she's looking down the notes to watch her she focuses on that she's focused on the notes the notes are the bad guy not him she's doing that she doesn't even say anything this time she was up front of mouth talking trying to assuage him so that he's calm him down so he didn't come after I just think she's a ball of horrible stuff inside there Chase what do you got yeah great I totally agree with you I think we're going to see some of this later but what I think we're seeing here is that she's learned to use power by proxy over the course of her life and I think the shift in Phil's demeanor here to become more paternal more serious finger down on the table has caused some of this regression and this kind of upward eyebrow movement this innocent voice innocent appearance is what literally what kept her safe probably growing up and literally what she used to wield her power growing up and I teach four laws of human behavior the number four law of my four laws is that every adult is a product of childhood suffering and reward so she used that behavior to get out of suffering and to gain some kind of reward in her family life in her social life and I think this is as good as it gets this is a an amazing clip that Scott I was going to go into that stare and you described it a lot better than I probably could have but keep in mind there's no positive denial when he's asking the question and I think Phil was a little bit to do with this regression but we see the beginnings of another hallmark psychopathy trait here and this is in the official book is called PIM or positive image management and this positive image management she doesn't care about committing the crime she wants you to know that it was someone else's idea and she's still a good person she's the type of person who will forget her shoes but not her little dog and she's going to pet the dog the whole time on the way out so this is positive image management is what we're seeing here Mark yeah so I think we see a couple of things happen here I think the slow blink again is acceptance I think that is her acceptance of the idea put forward that that she was more involved than she's saying she is and that Dr. Phil's accusations are correct now he has become an accuser at this point he's become a persecutor she now because you know there's only one real place for her to go which is to become the victim I mean she could start to persecute back but that's not the role that's ever got her what she wants so she reverts back to childlike innocence and we see that with the eyebrow raise she lures herself she looks up to Dr. Phil's eye line so she can make him the dominant male and her the subordinate female and child and therefore cause us the viewers and potentially Dr. Phil to go oh but it's just an innocent child why would she do anything and to Greg's point earlier on I think that's the role that has often got her what she's got to chase this point it's got her away from the punishment and it's got her some prizes at some time now it appears from her background I hadn't really investigated this hugely so you know put in the comments there how incorrect I am it appears from the little background that I looked into that though everybody's house can have all kinds of dramas going on potentially and she says it herself her house was not full of a lot of drama for her often we find in a sociopath that they are kind of created by the environment around them and so looking into her environment around her it seems kind of okay she said herself it was pretty nice though why would we believe her maybe we shouldn't so really it does edge her towards there being something fundamentally different about the way her brain is structured not a result of society and therefore sociopathic having a disorder that is troubling to other people that's the thing about antisocial behavioral disorders they're antisocial because everybody else doesn't like them that's why that's why the DSM I mean great book great book but often it has to change because for example narcissism looking at your own image quite a lot well hang on we do that with our phones all the time so as society changes we have to adapt our ideas of what behavioral disorder is that this one doesn't change too fundamentally I would say there that's what I got for you on that one the other three say they were trying to get you to run away but that you emphatically insisted that your family be killed that's what they all say isn't that the truth let's move you weren't in that house when they said it on fire right you were in the car waiting for them to come back and they said when you were pulling away that you said holy that was awesome anybody say anything in the car after you left the house what did you say there did you say I'm free I'm sorry Charles Wade said you were happier than a kid at Christmas at that point Chase what do you got we see some more regressive behavior here her voice and her body shrinks and almost collapses down into a really small form there's another spike in politeness so it's important to know when she's saying yes or no sir and when she's saying yes no she's shaking her head I think those are important data points to take a look at her eyes are filled here there's some tears in her eyes and I think there's two reasons for that one is you know we're mammals one of the reasons we cry is to garner sympathy and connection and concern from other primates second is to make eyes shiny shiny eyes is proven to be how males choose females not that there's any kind of attraction going on here but it's more likely in the mammalian part of her brain to trigger that response of this person is probably more likely to want to protect me or want to do something to protect me here if my eyes are a little bit shinier if you want to look that up that was bus and Schmidt 1993 let's cover one more psychopathic hallmark here just for this video promiscuous sexual behavior and I'll just leave it at that Greg? Yeah for me she reminds me of a child in trouble here this is an avoidance methodology not to say anything I also think that the thing I see in her is she's more embarrassed to be caught now in a lie than she is to have done the actual thing that's an interesting thing it tells you about a person's personality you know when you're interrogating somebody and they are trying to hide something it's usually because they're trying to hide what happened yesterday they don't care if you've caught them in a lie and you say you lied to me so what you know that doesn't bother them as much well she's not doesn't seem to be embarrassed at all about the facts but she seems to be sad that she's disappointing him is what there's some sadness in her face you see forehead involvement which we haven't seen to date she shakes her head before he gets the words out she shows some kind of concern whatever muscles are going on in here I can't tell if there's an archer any of that but I see concern in her forehead when I see that something has changed there's an emotion showing I think the emotion is that he is pointing out that she's lied that everybody else said this she shakes her head no before he can even get those words out she does fading facts and then flatly just doesn't say anything this to me feels like a child and the tears in the eyes number one reason I've met most women I've met who cry most of the time it's frustration that is the reason they cry so she's frustrated because her friends ratted her out that would be a reason to rise the tears in her eyes and I can see I agree she's got a welling up there I still feel anger from this person I bet you the right buttons should be across the table or screaming at you and telling you why you're wrong and that kind of thing this is one of those this is a Colombo thing you know you push your right button and she goes I'll tell you what I did comes at you you know it goes at you that way so one of those kind of folks Mark what do you got so my understanding is she's in prison so she understands that she needs to show shame or remorse that's how you stand any chance of anything like parole it may not be even in her in her future at all because of the conviction that she has but the prison system my understanding of it it's full of the idea of shame and remorse and being able to show remorse and that is your your journey forward as a good citizen to show shame and remorse so she knows that's the feeling she has to deliver she'll have seen enough TV TV is full of feelings and emotions that's what it's about that's what it's delivering to you a great of feelings that you've hand yourself so you can go wow just like me I've never been in that situation but I have had that feeling okay so she knows what she needs to deliver she cannot conjure it she can't get it there is that concern there I think this is the moment where I need to do the shame and remorse and not managing to get it and what she does manage to get is a slight sadness I would say a slight sadness but only in the lower part there doesn't really do a great performance there she does really manage to get that childlike innocence though she's really good at that one you know that's tried and tested for her okay you know the other thing I want to add to what you were saying there chase when you make your eyes bigger children have bigger eyes compared to their heads the brain hasn't developed enough you know so the bigger somebody's eyes the more childlike they look and the more those of us that are socially well formed the more we want to protect the person with the bigger eyes because they look like an innocent little baby one last thing about this and this is amazing so she isn't describing or showing really any of the emotions that we can you know that we've really managed to put our finger on I mean we're able to say hey I think I see a slight bit of this or a moment of that or but even we're having problems kind of you know pinning down an emotion from her that's a massive problem for Dr. Phil because he's trying to make TV here he's trying to make a show if I can't we've got to have some feelings here so he has to report a feeling that somebody else said she had but that feeling is associated with somebody else the feelings like well Dr. Phil is reporting that somebody else said that they thought that she looked like a happier than a kid at Christmas so a simile there like that is a third hand simile to get any emotion into this show which makes me truly understand it's really tough to get a feeling out of her because Dr. Phil has to go for a third hand simile of somebody else and it's great it's really entertaining what he says is like hey that's really fun and that's really interesting but that's super departed from her in the interview with him right now right now I would suggest he's getting nothing and he's got to go here's what somebody else said you were probably like I mean that's not good news so anyway that's what I've got for you on that one alright well here's what I'm seeing here is her baseline suggests the more dangerous the questioning is to her the quieter she gets her behavior completely does an opposite and she starts shutting down like Greg was saying earlier she starts getting smaller and smaller and she gets at some points where she just mouths with the words and has a little whisper and I'm not sure I think we're also dealing with developmental situation with her brain as well because she is talking like a child she looks like a child she's in that she's just everything's a child like manner so you guys have covered everything at that point so that's all I got you weren't in that house when they said it on fire right you were in the car waiting for them to come back and they said when you were pulling away that you said holy that was awesome anybody say anything in the car after you left the house what did you say there did you say I'm free Charles Wade said you were happier than a kid at Christmas at that point you good? yeah in your young brain at the time was it a victory for you they were gone and you were safe they have said independently that you said you wanted your little brothers killed because they picked on you and that you didn't want them in foster care and isn't that the truth you didn't say that you didn't want them dead wasn't it your idea to kill your parents alright Greg what do you got I don't ever turn my own mute but I cough today I think so it's good thanks yeah that was great I wasn't paying attention I'm just looking at my little notes I saw Chase go he's not going to say much and then I was like what the hell now he's looking kind of funny good one guys I don't have a lot here her only concern you can see that forehead is wrinkling I don't know if the forehead is wrinkling out a lack of understanding the forehead is wrinkling out of some kind of concern if it's concern it's only concern for her situation that she is now busted that's it she would get kind of small she said no to now she's been pretty emphatic and here she does your fading facts Scott remember bingo your fading facts here and this is about her not about the other when she does the no she does a close hit when she shook her head before it was this so if you pay attention to that and then she goes into the bobble head a little bit in her head moves in a way that means yes or no or whatever and that I think is she's trying to figure out what to do I think her circuits are getting a little overheated here if you hear her talking in the front of her mouth and then suddenly he attacks and she drops back and gets guttural and barely says anything I think you're seeing that her she realizes that what has been successful for the organism isn't working for the organism and hasn't to now because she didn't work and she's in prison but it's not working with him and I think she probably in talking to men in authority has used that technique before and it's not working and suddenly we're seeing a different her that's what I got Scott what do you got all right when you first start observing someone in your situation be it an interrogation be it somebody you've just met whatever it is you might be on the bus or the subway watching people or at the mall or something what you're trying to figure out is what their body language is trying to tell you what's really happening with that person especially if it's under a situation where you're asking them questions about and you may not be pointing your finger at it but it's you're asking them questions about something what's what happened you're looking for what their body language is trying to tell you and here is a perfect example of what to be looking for here again the more dangerous the question is to her the quieter she gets and the smaller she gets and the less movement she makes and we see her feigning this sadness and concern I believe I don't think it's real at all when he says wasn't it your idea to kill your parents her head just doesn't shake around like that because it's trying to say yes because obviously she knows that it was her idea so again going back to what is the body language trying to tell you as you observe this person you need to watch everything going on and take the situation into context as well and this situation what's happening is perfect for it because we're seeing her body trying to tell us yes when she's saying no and she wants to say no so bad she wants to deny the subject she's whispering she can't even speak at this point or doesn't even speak at this point so again the more dangerous the questions are to her the more she shuts down the less she puts out and the smaller she becomes all right Mark what do you got yeah so I'm going to pick up on something you often say Scott which is you know when an accuser comes in and now Dr. Phil is really you know being hard with his accusations now so to Greg's point like it's whatever she's doing isn't working because Dr. Phil keeps coming in with with bigger accusations and and I've heard you say time and time again Scott you know when people actually get accused of something they haven't done they get pretty energetic and exercised about it they get pretty upset about it she's getting quieter about it so she's going in the opposite way to the way you traditionally go well they get pretty mad I just want to go into exactly why people get pretty mad when they get accused of stuff they haven't done and you'll have all heard of a neurotransmitter called dopamine dopamine is the neurotransmitter that tells us things are going to get good it's the neurotransmitter of a great expectation it doesn't necessarily mean that things did get good it makes us literally it causes our motor neurons to fire and move us into a positive environment well when things are unfair which unfairness is the wrong distribution of power so what's unfair to me isn't necessarily unfair to Greg or to Chase and what's fair to me may feel unfair to Greg but what's happening here if it were true that she didn't do it well that's an unfair distribution of power I'm somebody's powerfully saying you did something you're being accused of something it didn't happen well here's what happens in places of unfairness dopamine lowers really fast and then the body has to react to that and it will react with fight or flight and usually pretty much fight first of all because in that situation because she's got no way out there's nowhere to go you can't run away from this so she should I think if she were really innocent of this she should be getting quite exercised even aggressive right now about the injustice that's going on because the dopamine level should be plummeting that's not happening right now that's not happening which is a big red flag for me that Dr. Phil's accusations are most likely spot on here there that's what I got for you Chase what do you got on this one yeah I agree with all of you guys here I think Phil does a great job of rationalising at the beginning when he's saying with your young brain at the time that was a separate thing you had a separate brain it was a different time so it's kind of rationalising maybe a little bit of projection and to Scott's point we're talking about fading facts everything's fading it's fading body, fading words fading tone, fading volume fading facts and this is a textbook amazing example that I'm 100% I've already saved it to my google drive I'm going to be using for training for sure and I think the forehead wrinkles to garner some sympathy if you imagine like a little kid in a Disney movie begging somebody for change or something or when they're really in need of something it's the same thing we see and that is typically where people like this learn those emotional expressions as they're growing up those emotional expressions are learned from TV not from their own behaviour and their own reactions to things Phil's shift to closed and in questions might have been a little too early but I can say that it's unpredictable when the right time to do that is in most cases I think this is shutting down her whole body is shutting down I think that was a defense mechanism for her and it was a reward for Garner for her growing up so let's go with another one of the hallmarks before we move to the next video and this would be a failure to accept responsibility for personal actions I think that's number 17 on the list that's all I got cool they had data point for you guys he told me that when he did this video they had a stopwatch with 60 minutes on it well he was under the jail yeah he was under pressure yep set up get everything done bring her in 60 minutes in your young brain at the time was it a victory for you they were gone and you were safe they have said independently that you said you wanted your little brothers killed because they picked on you and that you didn't want them in foster care and isn't that the truth you didn't say that you didn't want them dead wasn't it your idea to kill your parents tell me what you think I mean when I say if you don't come clean and be completely honest that you're never going to heal from this and that your father's never going to heal from it people say my dad just wants to brush things under the rug so to speak and say that you know his daughter didn't know nothing about this and that's I mean I think we've established I didn't know but he says you know my daughter did not master mind this and I mean I didn't and I mean I know that all this looked bad and everything but I didn't know what they went in and did that night alright I go first on this one the main thing that was established here for me for me personally is really important is that Dr. Phil choose gum while he's on TV and he knows he's on video he doesn't bug him a bit where did Dr. Phil I don't think I don't think she understood the question again as well as intellectual miniatures we're dealing with here didn't had north the idea what that meant not whatsoever so she goes back to her her north through baseline of just talking and trying to talk her way through it and she's talking quiet and she tries to get through it it just gets worse and worse I think goes a little sideways on her because she starts talking about things that have nothing to do with what he asked her so I think it's a great example of showing how she fakes her way through answers so Greg what do you got? I agree I saw that that's a learned behavior to do something other people do when they're having a stressful answer to a question because she's not stressed her breathing is not up her blinker it's not up none of that stuff we expect in fighter flights she swallows once maybe she's thinking and then she does the one thing that makes me think there's a lot of facade here the reason she says I think we've established that I did know and she says it all of her body language everything is fluid unlike anything else in the video my guess is that's the person that her friends know that's the person that people knew that she was not trying to kill it's normal intonation it's kind of congruent body language it's just a normal kind of a go back and watch it it is a normal kind of of sentence in the middle of all this other stuff we're looking at I didn't mean she closed her eyes again I don't think this is a brilliant woman I don't think she has any clue what he's talking about I think he knows that he's sitting across the table and he's trying to get through to her and say do you understand that and then she goes to something about her dad and her dad's sweeping it under a rug and it's Tuesday and I like hamburgers and it's not chaff and redirect it's conversation so I don't think we're dealing with somebody who really has their act together but I also think that that line that we can't see in this interview that's what you got Chase, what do you got? Yeah, totally agree with you guys I think Phil does exactly the right thing here according to me anyway by redirecting his approach to a directive commanding approach so he's no longer asking questions he's saying tell me this so there was no question there was a command that was a kind of an order there for her within his little let's call it a question to her there was a technique I won't talk about takes too long to explain but if you spotted it put it in the comments and it's not an interrogation technique it's a persuasion technique that was used there Phil matches her behavior perfectly as he's wrapping up this initial question of his her arms are under the table his hands are animated and right as he's going to for her to start answering his hands going to the table he assumes the same exact body posture as her it is masterful pretty good approach there and when she's we're talking about her forcing these words out Greg what was that word you came up with? Yeah, no I said we should use golem from Lord of the Rings with the coughing out words so when she's goleming she does it with the word mastermind she forces that word out mastermind and we see she's more comfortable with the denial when she's quoting someone else so where we see this she develops this psychological process throughout her life she uses power by proxy and now she's using denial by proxy so with someone else is saying it it becomes more powerful I'm letting someone else take that away so she's using proxy in multiple different ways here in her language and in her behavior Phil closes out Dr. Phil closes out the clip with a brilliant full open arm display so right as the clip is ending you can see him do this to kind of get her probably to keep talking there even though we cut that out so let's I'll wrap up with a hallmark psychopathic trait and this is impulsivity when you hear somebody just say it just happened which we did so impulsivity is one of the hallmarks in the diagnostic manual Mark? Yeah I didn't know there's a bitter taste in her mouth so I think she's slightly disgusted with herself that sorry she says I did know I did know and there's I think we've we've worked out established that I did know yeah so I think there's like disgust at she's now gone down the road of like admitting that she has been caught in this still plenty of innocent child role there with I didn't we hear her first metaphor which is sweeping sweeping under the rug but again that metaphor is to do with someone else so it's not a metaphor about her feelings it's a metaphor about somebody else's feelings and to Scott's point there of you know maybe she's not didn't understand the question so well well that's probably because Dr. Phil did perceptual positioning there he said you know what do you think I mean when I say X well that means that you've got to kind of take their position and go okay imagine I'm Dr. Phil what do I think he would be thinking right now that perceptual positioning is part of what we call cognitive empathy being able to go well there's there's me and I'm different from Dr. Phil and Dr. Phil might think differently and so I'm going to become them and take their position she can't do that she can't there's just her there's just her and there isn't other people's feelings he didn't even ask for a feeling he was just like what do you think I'm thinking when I say this not even asking what do you think I feel and the step up from that in empathy would be what do you think I think about my feelings well that's kind of what a therapist does when they sit with you is to go and you know I think you might be feeling you know about yourself like this that is a huge level of abstraction and this particular personality type though I don't know you know what they what what it shows up in in the DSM and what they what they might kind of rank it is rank it as in there they often have quite a difficulty with abstract thoughts it's very much process driven here's what's happening to me right now rather than you know here's what people are thinking or feeling about something in the past or the future and I've created a metaphor or a simile to describe that you don't get that a great deal which is why that kind of psychopathic kind of monologing that you get in lots of films which is really quite erudite and goes on forever isn't particularly realistic for your general common or garden psychopaths they don't actually tend to do that as you know we've got one we've got one in our ranking of videos who does come up with some quite erudite stuff but he's stolen it from other people I think it's Ramirez isn't it he's just taken other people's poetry put it together and gone look I'm a poet I'm fantastic look at me no they rarely come up with their own similes and metaphors and abstract thinking and perceptual positioning is really hard to do there that's what I got on that one for you tell me what you think I mean when I say if you don't come clean and be completely honest that you're never going to heal from this and that your father's never going to heal from it people say my dad just wants to brush things under the rug so to speak and say that you know he's starting to get know nothing about this and that's I mean I think we've established I did know but he says you know my daughter did not mastermind this and I mean I didn't and I mean I know that all this looked bad and everything but I didn't know what they went in and did that night excellent did you mastermind this crime were you the motivating force behind this happening if not the motivating force a motivating force I probably added fuel to the fire you wanted them dead tell me what you're thinking I wasn't thinking that night I mean I wasn't like mad mad at them or anything like that just I feel like I just you got tired of them bickering and said just do it is that true Mark what do you got yeah okay what have I got so here's what I think is happening here and I kind of really feel for Dr. Ville here because he's got 60 minutes to get something happening here and look I think the narrative that we want as an audience is the one that we see on TV in films whereby she is going to crumble and start into an emotional rendition of why she did what she did and the emotions that were involved with that so there's some kind of catharsis at the end of this and she hasn't got that she hasn't got that she says herself you know it just it just happened and she tries to approximate some emotion to go with that but it really isn't there for her the event comes it comes right up close she does the murders and then they're kind of over and that was really kind of exciting and now it's the next thing that's going on there isn't any grand emotions around this and I think what Dr. Ville has to kind of do is fill it in a bit for us as the audience and go okay so they were bickering and you had had enough and it's like she doesn't seem to be saying that she seems to be saying no it just happened and I'll do my best to give you some kind of feeling to go with this but I don't think she has it so I totally feel for the entertainment of this situation though as Scott was saying it's an awful, awful situation but entertainment is always created around these awful situations because it's kind of useful for armed or forewarned helps us, I mean that's why we do this show with you all because some of you will get some kind of forewarning forearmed of stuff that might come your way hope it never does, in fact in this case this is so, so rare you're never going to meet this kind of situation apart from watching it right now with us so you don't need to worry too much about that Greg what have you got on this one? the interesting one because I do think she shows her true face here it starts off, she's walking through and Dr. Phil does a pretty artful thing here you're right, whether it's time limit or whatever he starts off with an outright accusation, you caused this, you did this then we'll know well were you one of the motivators for it well, or were you the motivation for it did you motivate them to do it? No were you one of the motivators now he's got her to admit something and what he's doing is a cascading scale of guilt at least get her to say something and my assumption is he's going to build her back up to what she actually did, so he says oh then he got her to say well you did this, well then you take it the next step back up and that's cascading confession, you work him down and you work him back, now could you give him bad information in there probably you could, but he's not he's giving her everything he's got when she finally says something and there is a crack in all this facade that is a smile if I have ever seen that creeps me the hell out that would do it right there through all this stuff no smile, but then kind of a little smile right in the middle of all that she does then go into some blink rate increase at motivation I was the fuel on the fire and all of that stuff that you see in her face those downsides in the raised brows are about her to me there's not a thing in here about the family it's about Dr. Phil thinks I'm a bad person now and my facade is cracked he saw my smile and that's what I got um Chase what do you got yeah I definitely agree with you man there's no denial there's no strong confident positive denial here whimper of denial tiny head shakes are super unusual I've been doing this a long time, I've never seen anything like this in anybody who's over the age of probably eight so we are seeing some big time regression so I think that smile occurs right after Phil says you wanted them dead and I think the smile may be suggestive of her desire to say I wanted something and I made it happen and I did it, I got it done I want you to watch how fast after Dr. Phil says is that true her face goes from an emotional girl who she's playing in that moment to a stone cold monster you can see the shift happen right here on your phone, iPad, whatever screen we're watching you can see that transformation right after he says is that true you watch her face change and that should scare me, I was up here this morning at like five o'clock by myself I had to go turn the lights on that was a strange shift and let's go with our final hallmark here we already talked about the prone to impulsivity when she says in this video it just happened it just happened, that's all it was so next is the need for stimulation and prone to boredom so I think we're seeing this in her overall personality how she grew up in the way that she lived her life, outside of these videos you're seeing a lot of evidence of that too so there's a whole lot of evidence here to support that a professional might be able to make some kind of diagnosis I don't think any of us give a crap about any professional diagnosis this is what we see there's a book that tells you what to look at pretty basic, Mark I don't know, I've been Scott, sorry oh no this is another example like we've seen the whole way, her baseline is just shutting down at the top of that when he starts talking to her the more dangerous the question the more silent she gets the more she starts closing off and turning it off and this shows her guilt beyond a shadow of a doubt to me anyway I probably added fuel to the fire again from your hallmark earlier Chase, she's not accepting responsibility for what she did what she did there, she was part of it but she wasn't the mastermind or instigator of it as she comes on and again that's narcissistic behavior we tend to see in psychopaths when he says tell me what you're thinking that's not that is I don't think it's dooper's delight I agree with you guys hold back that emotion she's almost giddy with it as it jumps out as she would with those people she was with when it happened, what'd you do and I did that, so I killed him or whatever I really believe that's what we're seeing there it's not even dooper's delight it's just full on trying to hold back a smile that's what I said holy smokes I was right at the very top this is a monster sitting in there that's what that is, that's what she is being able to do that to her family and those little children like that and having someone come in and do it and she's outside and then watching the house burn too man that's hard core so I think I agree with you guys, that's a dang monster we're looking at right there and no doubt about it so that's what I got, be good did you mastermind this crime were you the motivating force behind this happening if not the motivating force a motivating force I probably added fuel to the fire you wanted them dead tell me what you're thinking I wasn't thinking that I mean I wasn't like mad mad at them or anything like that I feel like it just happened you got tired of them bickering and said just do it is that true is that true I'm sorry alright well if you like what we're doing please subscribe and become a panelist and um I think we're good to go after that fellas everything good alright well that's a good one, I'll see you guys next time thanks y'all did I ever tell you guys about the time I threw up on the roller coaster because the guy my brother now riding it was at Arprey land the old Arprey land thing years and years and years ago and we're sitting or we're in the front car but there's two stairs that got the people in the front of it and the people in the back of it so we were in the front car but we were in the back of it right in the second seat and the guy in front of us he was talking like this and he said and he turned to his brother and we could see and there's a seat you can't see anything we see no body we just see this neck and head come out like this and he goes did I tell you what Dennis did to me and his brother goes no, what he goes he gave me a butchie he said what? he gave me a butchie and when he did that he said butchie like that I started laughing and I started laughing so hard by the time we started down and I'd been eating cotton candy and drinking coke and I said I start puking man it gets all over me it's this raining vomit back behind us it was horrible I don't know why I just thought about that