 What is the state of open source in Europe? We organized this as a panel discussion of the authors and originators of that report that we're basing the discussion on. So Mirke Brum, I'm the director for community development at Lewis Foundation in Europe. We have on stage today Hilary Carter, who leads our LF Research team. We have Colin Eberhard, who is one of the, or actually the main author of the study. And we have Sachiko, who was contributing to the study and will provide a perspective also from her work as a researcher in Sweden. I would like to begin with some general opening remarks, not taking any key findings away from the presentations that we will have later. And that is the point of view of especially the LF Europe, why this report is so important. As you know, we started a year ago in effort to extend the activities of Linux Foundation in Europe and to build Linux Foundation Europe as a collaboration platform for European open source stakeholders to engage in their regional collaboration. And when you want to build this, you're looking at three essential pillars of the collaboration that we could see. The public sector, the vertical industries, and social impact, which includes the volunteer communities that are very strong in Europe, and projects that are not primarily aiming at business value, but maybe at societal value. And when we want to decide how do we build this platform, how do we engage, how do we invite participant, and who do we give a stage? Who should we proactively give a stage because they maybe don't have a marketing department? Then we absolutely rely on some, let's say, more substantiated insights than our hunches. And it's incredibly important that such reports exist. As we're very grateful to Hilary and her team and the office, that was done. So as I said, general remarks, we generally see two modes of collaborations that are, let's say, underdeveloped in Europe, based on the report and based on our work. One is that we see the public sector as a contributor to open source. And this is often not even the perspective of the public sector, who says we are rule makers and we will not interfere with industry. We would like to leave everything to industry that can be developed in the private sector. That is all correct. But the perspectives here are beginning to shift because the digital infrastructure that we're developing today is a joint effort by communities, by the public sector, and by private industry. And the implications, what happens if such infrastructure is not stable, are felt everywhere and include public interest. But we also see, we often talk about procurement. We talk about the public sector and you may ask, yeah, the public sector is a large contractor of services and products, but what's the relationship to open source? Well, you can think of procurement as an indirect way to contribute to open source because if you're contracting a company to implement software for you as the public sector and you ask that company to contribute those changes upstream or to make them available as an open source project, maybe even contract the original company to build a community around this, then you're contributing to open source with the might of the public sector. And I think that's something that's not yet fully developed. And the open source projects, they have a very strong advantage in that they're allowing us collaboration based on partial consensus. That means as long as we agree that what we develop is contributed to a common code base, let's say, we only need to agree on doing that. We don't need to agree on everything. We may have different regional national interests, et cetera. But as long as we share enough values to contribute to a piece of software together, we can collaborate. And this is one of the missions that I see for the International Europe is to be this platform for collaboration, this neutral ground for European engagement. And I want to close with kind of a dimension, a spectrum that we described in one of our publications on how the economics of open source work. We have a choice here, essentially, of how do we build, how do we adapt to this digital transformation that is driven by open technologies? We can flat out reject it. We can say, hey, this is threatening existing jobs, established businesses, we don't want that. We could passively tolerate it. We're saying, well, it might have beneficial impact. Maybe it drives innovation. So we won't interfere with it. Or we could really facilitate it, invest into it, drive it forward and embrace it as a foundation for our digital society. With that, I hope I have raised your interest and ready to appetite for the upcoming discussions. I would like to pass to Hilary for her perspective of the research. Thank you, Miracle. And good afternoon, everyone. It's fabulous to see such interest in this discussion. It's wonderful. Thank you for joining us. I lead the research program at the Linux Foundation. And we were established in 2021 with the mission of describing the vast open source activities, opportunities, challenges and impact of the Myriad projects. And that is a big task. And we were created to help provide a resource that was openly available, a public utility in the form of open content. And this is the second year that our open content through research is dedicated to describing the state of open source in Europe. And it's just a wonderful opportunity to work with communities. Essentially, we co-create research. We rely on our community to give us their insight, to share knowledge, to complete a survey, to give us a qualitative interview. We work across the community hiring subject matter experts. And this panel is comprised of such experts. Miracle is our primary stakeholder at Linux Foundation Europe. Miracle and GAB and that community, letting us know at the research department what questions we need to answer that will help inform the activities of LF Europe and identify the challenges and the gaps that this entity needs to focus on. How do they channel their efforts? How do they prioritize their research, their programming? And it's no different for any other project across the Linux Foundation. Colin and his team, it's called Logic are just examples of subject matter experts that we engage who have a solid understanding of open source and a unique perspective that we can leverage for this effort. And Sachiko Muto through her roles at Openform Europe and at the Research Institutes of Sweden to lend a greater depth to survey data. So it's a real joy to work across the community in the way that we do. As of the end of August, we had published 14 reports on a cross-section of our community. Thank you, it's a wonderful colorful slide. I would invite you all to visit linuxfoundation.org slash research and there you will get not only the reports published in 2023 but the entire collection of our work. It's available for free under Creative Commons. You don't have to give us your email address. We believe very strongly that you can take the work, publish it on your website, distribute it, use it as you see fit. It is a utility by the community for the community. Now that's just up until August 31st. In the last week, we've published four additional reports that were announced in the keynotes. One of them, of course, is the state of open source in Europe. So how we organize our activities at Research Broadly is to conduct our investigation through a framework. And the four frameworks that we have are conducting research across technologies. So looking at specific areas, whether it's blockchain or cloud native and looking at challenges with multi-cloud or the IoT, generative AI and so on and do very specific research into a different specific technology. We do industry specific research. So we've done work with Colin previously and Colin and I co-authored a report in financial services as an example of industry specific research. We do ecosystem wide research on topics that cross all industries and technologies like diversity, equity and inclusion, governance, cybersecurity. It's relevant across the whole ecosystem, can't be bucketed singularly. And then finally, we launched a recent framework which we realized we needed is a geographic analysis. How do regions differ? Why did they differ? How can we reduce geographic fragmentation? And so I'll bring you to the sort of purpose behind the Europe report. And that is, in Gav's words, it enables a continent wide discussion. It's really about Europe and the future of Europe and how can we gather insight to ensure that open source continues to thrive in Europe and how can we up level the contribution equation across the region. And we want people to get involved. It's really a call to action, to challenge the findings, steward the community. And really we all have to chop wood and carry water so identify the gaps and help us close them. So what do we want to accomplish in this study? We explored really what's the current state of open source in Europe compared to last year. What were the trends? What's the level of activity? Is the value of open source increasing, decreasing? Is open source usage changing? Are contribution patterns changing? What are the inhibitors and motivators? What are the real opportunities that are unrealized? We wanted to validate that open source is continually relied on. And that came to shining through, which was really encouraging as did the value of open source. And again, looking at benefits, challenges, strengths and weaknesses. So here's how we did it. We partnered again this year with the Scott Logic team from the UK of technology and business consultancy who's incredibly active across Linux Foundation project communities. I had worked with Colin in FinTech and Open Source Foundation research before and he and his team co-authored, Colin co-authored with Graham Odds and Matthew Dunderdale. Matthew was on a panel at KubeCon when we are launching the very first Europe report last year. We fielded a survey between April and June and it was part of a worldwide study from which we segmented data that was specific to European countries. It was not country specific. It was for are you in Europe or are you not in Europe? We were a little bit more granular in the first iteration of this report, but because it was part of a worldwide study, we went very regional and not quite as specific. And we were able to get almost the same amount of complete responses from Europe as we did in other regions so that we could make quality comparisons across the regions. The worldwide report will come out next month and we were quite excited about the findings on the whole. In addition to survey data, the ScottLogic team conducted 15 interviews with subject matter experts and this is one of the, I think, it's a secret sauce of research. I think the qualitative process is so important. Research is a mechanism for a community to have their say and we want to be the voice of, it's a mechanism for the community's voice to be heard and to give people an opportunity to share what they know with or without attribution as they're comfortable. We think it's very important anytime an organization can be attributed because it adds legitimacy to the work and greater transparency as to who is actually behind a statement. But it's not a requirement. The most important thing is that piece of insight is there. And those people came from a range of industries, countries, and it was delightful what they brought. And so I hope you enjoy those quotes when you read the research. And with that, I'm gonna turn it over to Colin to dig into the findings. Thank you very much. Thanks, Hilary. Yeah, I'm going to try to summarize a 45 page report in about five minutes. So yeah, hold on to your seats. I apologize in advance. I'm gonna show you a number of charts. You probably won't have time to fully digest them. Download the report. So to get started, we wanted to look at the value of open source and there are a number of questions that try to monitor this in various different ways. It's probably no great surprise to you that the overwhelming response was that open source is very valuable. Just to give you a few statistics, 89% indicated it's valuable to the future of their sector. Interestingly, 72% of respondents do not work in information technology. So this isn't just an IT thing. 77% of respondents indicated that the benefits exceed the costs. Next, the ubiquity of open source. I think again, it's probably no great surprise and many of us consider open source to be ubiquitous. There have been recent reports that indicate somewhere in the region of 80% of code in production is now open source. And again, our survey findings very much reflected this. 73% indicate that they have significant or widespread use of open source within their organization. Now, getting on to some of the challenges. Contribution has been an ongoing challenge within open source. And one of the things that we found is that smaller organizations are much more permissive, much more encouraging in the process of contributing back to open source than larger organizations. One of the things I think is quite notable here is roughly a quarter of the individuals we surveyed indicated that there is no clear contribution policy in their organization. And this is something that we see in organizations of all size. And that's something that I think is well worth addressing. Open source leadership, last year we actually revealed in our study that organizations with open source program offices and clear open source leadership have measurably better performance across a number of different metrics. This year we discovered that there's an imbalance. IT vendor organizations are far more likely to have an open source program office or some form of leadership than end user organizations. So again, this is something I think is worth pondering and addressing. Looking at something completely different, we asked about the onboarding checks. What do people do when they're looking to onboard or consume open source projects? A significant number indicated that they simply check the activity level of the project or they effectively count the number of stars. This is probably not good enough, in my opinion. 11% indicated that they didn't have any onboarding checks at all. Interestingly, one in five don't have any form of risk management process around open source either. So there's clearly room for improvement in this area. And again, public sector with, this has been noted a number of times. It's similar to the findings that we found last year. Interestingly, the perceived change in value from open source is much less within public sector organizations than non-public sector organizations. So public sector is simply not seeing a growing value. And part of the reason for this is public sector has very different needs from open source. We asked, where should we invest to improve open source, to increase the value of open source? And we can see just simply from the shape of the curve here, public sector, those within public sector expressed very different needs, given just a few examples, that they favor better academic education, whereas those in non-public sector organizations typically look for cross industry collaboration and standards. So again, very different needs. So to just summarize with a few quick conclusions, and we should all be leveraging the growing value in open source. And the key here is all, not just those outside of public sector. We need to be conscious of the sector-specific challenges. And again, there's not time to go into the detail. Please read the report. Finally, I do think we all need to start taking a more responsible approach to using open source and specifically security. Again, there was some interesting and eyebrow-raising sort of findings in the report. And yes, download the report. Thank you. I wasn't prepared to stand in your presentation. I was, you know, preferring to sit back and have a more relaxed session. But I'll follow, I'm out of. So I didn't produce, I didn't make a lot of slides. The report has already been presented. I think my role here is to more offer a few reflections, what I see as some of the interesting points that have come out of it from a research point of view. And also, hopefully, you know, those reflections can also hope to, you know, help to start the discussion in the room, which I hope we get to as well. So thank you first of all for inviting me to be back on the panel. It's a bigger crowd than last year. So that's interesting to see that also in this community, interest in the research is increasing. I think also thank you for doing the research because I do find it valuable as it contributes to a sort of a growing knowledge and research output around open source. There's the sort of the quantitative research that also then can be explored more fully in some of the qualitative work that you are doing and others as well. And then, you know, in my day to day now I'm working more on applied research, also trying to understand what's behind these numbers, not just what's behind these numbers, but how can we translate some of these findings into actually moving those numbers? And my particular interest and where I work most is with the public sector now in Sweden at the National Swedish Research Institute. So I think already last year I found that the most interesting finding there, I think, stood out for a lot of people was this, you know, untapped potential in the public sector. And this year you were able to show that it hasn't, you know, the fact that it hasn't moved. And my first thought was really, you know, I wonder if we had done this survey 10 years ago because would, you know, is there a change, you know, in the public sector from 10 years ago? That's an interesting question maybe also to put to the room because I think there are a lot of people here that, and certainly the people that I sort of interact with, a lot of the early open-source champions have really come. You know, we're often in the public sector and I think that's really where also a lot of us saw the main potential. And, you know, over 10 years so much happened in industry and open-source has won in industry here. But I think in the public sector we still see that it hasn't moved, it hasn't moved since last year. I wonder how much it has moved, you know, we don't have the numbers for 10 years ago, but the question is how do we move this? And I thought one thing that stood out from the slides that we just saw here was that asking the, you know, how can we move this? You know, nobody said through more legislation, right? And that was true for also for the public sector itself. And I think in this, you know, community of people who maybe are not thinking about policy and every day as myself, you know, there's a kind of tendency also to see the government as being the government, you know, like that's the policymakers and also sort of the bureaucracy. We tend to lump that into, you know, just the government. But I think what we are seeing is that we have public sector organizations, you know, like cities, regional, you know, sort of administrative bodies, they are also grappling with new legislation, new technology. So, and I think, you know, we have these CRA discussions and how it's going to affect sort of the developer communities. But you'll also see that these are concerns that public sector officials have thought about a lot. You know, what happens? How can we contribute to an open source community? So I think that's already a sort of stumbling block. Most public sector organizations, the way that they, that they will have to, the way that they contract with the outside world is through procurement. So we are saying you need to get involved more, but for them it's like, how do we even, can we be a member of an organization? Can we collaborate in this way? And I think we'll need to look into that a bit more. The other thing, so that's sort of seeing government as a, it's not just, you know, the legislator is not, you know, the administrations that will have to sort of implement those regulations and also have to, you know, like I said, deal with these new incoming rules, et cetera, and sort of adapt to new technologies. The second thing is that we, just sort of moving from this kind of insight into look, how can we help the public sector? And I think there also, LF research has shown that OSPOS have been sort of crucial for leveraging the value of open source in the industry. And I think, you know, that sort of already last year, I think I had a lot of conversations on like, how do we sort of, how do we create similar structures in outside of industry? The concerns may be different. We, they're not necessarily easily translatable. So I think there, there is some research now and I want to actually, my colleagues, Johan Dinocher and Kieran Oregordan, they're having a session tomorrow, which where they're going to be presenting some work that is being done for the European Commission actually, looking at non-industry OSPOS in Europe. So looking at cities that have OSPOS, they're now country level OSPOS. So that's interesting. And I think that's really what's going to be crucial in moving the needle because legislation is not enough. We have seen some countries that have actually put in place these like Italy and I think the Netherlands also had some France, you know, they put in place these sort of public money, public code type of legislations. And what happens if there isn't the sort of knowledge about how to implement those regulations is that there's always a way out. So I think I heard the person who's now responsible for the newly formed Dutch OSPOS, he said, we had for a couple of years, legislation that said open unless, well, it turns out that 95% of the cases it's going to be the tick the unless box. So I think, so like I said again, having the numbers at the quantitative level, then feeding that into sort of more qualitative work where we can look into what's actually driving this, but then it's going to be important to build those structures, you know, and also guidelines are going to be important as well. And I think that's something that you highlight in the report that was just released this week also. Right, Mirko, I haven't, I only read the executive summary, but that's looking into some, what sort of some of the blockers are and what could help the European public sector. And it's really about sort of having the institutional knowledge inside the organizations, adapting what we know from industry OSPOS to public sector conditions. And then also really looking into establishing these guidelines, which cannot be taken directly, I think, from the industry environment, but can certainly sort of learn from those things. And so final point, I guess we need to move on to the questions, but I think this is, I've been saying this all week, we have to educate also. We have to communicate with policymakers and with the public sector officials. This is ongoing work. Just the benefits of open source and some of the counter-intuitive aspects of open source, they need to be explained again. There is going to be a renewed interest in, whenever there's new technology, there's renewed interest in it. And with AI, there is renewed interest in the transparency aspects of technology. Very important, but it also, public sector will look at risk, you know, and they're not, they're more risk averse than maybe some of the industry. And they're going to, intuitively, I think, think that the proprietary way is the right way to go if we need to sort of make sure that we are not investing in some technology that is, you know, that's open and vulnerable in this sense. So I think, you know, new technologies arrive on the scene, there's new renewed interest in it from the public sector, but then we'll need to have those messages, we'll need to go out and communicate. Yeah, so those were my first reflections and hopefully that can help the discussion of it. Thank you very much. Thank you, Sachi Ko. Thank you to the other presenters. We will now lead into the panel discussions. We'll begin, and then I will have a surprise guest for you that nobody knows about, not even the panelists. So I would like to lead with the question of what challenges and opportunities did you learn from the report that the European Open Source ecosystem should embrace? Short answers, so we leave time for questions from the audience. Hilary? Sure, very briefly, I'm delighted I have to first acknowledge a key contributor on our team who's here in the audience today, Adrienne Lawson. Adrienne, if you could just stand up and give everybody a wave. Thank you. Adrienne is the engine behind our data and analytics and she has been a huge asset to LF Research and she's presenting a deep dive in the findings tomorrow afternoon doing the worldwide comparison, uncovering the gap between usage and contribution. So there's more of this to come. Please join Adrienne's session tomorrow. The finding that was most surprising to me was the fact that in spite of Open Source being known to be secure by way of its transparency, security was not deemed to be a good enough reason or a strong enough reason to inspire increasing contributions and participation for the purpose of enhancing security. So that conundrum, that paradox I found was very interesting. That was gonna be my answer. Sorry. I guess, I think flipping around the other way, it was all of the findings relating to public sector were not surprising at all and because I like data and surveys, I'm gonna do something quite unscientific here. Can you put your hand up if you are an employee of a public sector body or organization? That's two or three in the room and I think that's a neat illustration of the problem. Most of us here, well, most of us, all of us are citizens of some country somewhere and all of us as technologists or people involved in technology are very keen for public sector to capitalize on the growing value of Open Source yet organizations like Linux Foundation for whatever reason don't tend to attract those who are actively engaged in creating software for our public services and that's a challenge and I'm still not quite sure what the answer to that challenge is but fundamentally we need to find a space and a place for those actively involved in engineering, building, designing public services. We need to find the space that they can come together and talk about their challenges because they're very different from the challenges that almost everyone at this conference will be experiencing themselves. I'm glad the three people that put their hands up are nodding. Yeah. Rather than answering your question then, Mirko, I'd like to just sort of continue on the thread that you started here. You know, we were very, I've worked in Brussels for 15 years trying to talk to policy makers about Open Source and I think last three years I think the commission has been actually speaking at Fostum in Brussels and that was a big step because we were trying to say, okay, you have to come to where the developers are. You know what I mean? And I think they kind of get that but then it kind of, similar message needs to be sort of put to your community here is that you will maybe need to come and come to them. You see what I mean? And so I think this is sort of some of the, what we have been trying in Open Form Europe is really to try to bring communities together and try to, because these meetings are taking place, although they may not, you know, they're, those people inside the public sector working on these things could also be, probably feel quite isolated at the time. So how do we somehow facilitate some of those discussions and comes back to the point I was making. There is some sort of, I think, when we have talked to, I was saying that some of the biggest champions of Open Source I've found over the years have actually been in the public sector but there is some kind of hesitation for them to come and speak at such a place. They're maybe used to being in settings where things are highly hierarchical, maybe. You don't make even the slightest statement, you don't veer off sort of the agreed messages and things like that. You have a written presentation, you stick to that. So I think it is a bit, we need to find a way to describe how public sector officials can engage in open communities. And I think that's going to also be different from for each jurisdiction as well. We'll need to understand, it's not gonna be the same in Europe as it is in the U.S. perhaps. So yeah. Thank you. So this set the scene nicely but we all heard one finding in the report, or one, yeah, finding was that we don't really know where to invest, right? And because of that, I took the liberty to invite Fiona. Who you have seen this morning, please come up. Who you have seen this morning from the Southern Tech Fund on the stage. And the question I would like to ask her and then the other panelists is, what do you think where we should invest in further building the European open source ecosystem? Where should we dig in? Go, could you please, gentlemen? Oh yeah, thank you so much. Yeah, hi, I'm the surprise guest between this panel and lunch, I guess. Thank you so much for inviting me, Fiona Kartenberger from the Southern Tech Fund. So I think there are various ways to answer the questions and I'm trying to be quick to pass on to the other experts. I do think that we have to engage and embrace more in vertical narratives. We support open source infrastructure. So yes, the technologies that we support are very likely used everywhere but that is not going to help with the logic that are usually in a government, the Sachiko said. It's not a government, it's not a monolithic block, there are their own logics and if you want to engage, for example, a ministry about economic affairs and climate, you have to talk their language and you have to help enable them to even get engaged because they need to stitch those narrators to their own narrators and priorities. I'm very happy to hear that there's little mini-conference about a tool that's being used in agriculture. I think that's really important. Open source is not just one application, it's virtually everywhere. So let's tell these stories and try to get people involved in their own sectors and sections or whether it's finance or agriculture or administration and I think we now might have a better structure, infrastructure in communities and knowledge and expertise to come up with these stories and being able to tell each individual part of what a government is, why this matters to them. And secondly, I do think that it helps that we have now a couple of programs. This is why we, among us, we prioritized speed at the sovereign tech fund. We wanted to make sure that there is finally a program that successfully employs or uses public funding for open source infrastructure and I think we need more of these success stories so others can point at us and say, we want that too. Thank you. Thank you. Where should we dig in? All right, where should we invest? I think investing in the citizen and people is incredibly important. I think that's what Europe does well. I have dual citizenship with Ireland and Canada and we have an approach around social good and social safety and I think keeping those citizen-centric services cost-effective is really important and letting technology help people and have an impact on people and citizens is really important to me. I'd like to see more of that and similarly, Europe is leading in energy and sustainability and if we can look after people and we can look after the planet, I think that's worthwhile investment so anyone who's listening considered my points. Thank you. With money, I mean. Are we gonna be taking a collection tin round at the end? I think the most important area of investment is education because unfortunately, open source is really quite complicated and a lot of the people at this conference are quite technically minded and we tend to explain things in quite a technically-minded fashion. For example, the OSI definition of open source, it's great for a technologist but it's not terribly useful for someone who isn't that close to technology. However, technology is all around us. It's part of everyone's life so I think being able to explain to people in a manner that they can understand things like the legal challenges, being able to understand the great value that it has, the ability it has to be able to lower costs, deliver projects faster, create innovation, I think you need to explain that to people and also I don't think this conference is the best place to do that. I think explaining to people within conferences that are about completely different topics completely different industry verticals, we need to go to them rather than wait for them to come to us. Well, everything that has been said, basically Fiona, thanks for bringing that up and starting that conversation. I've been saying that all week so I don't feel like I'm repeating myself but it's great to hear that said in different ways. We do need to have clear messages and it's not one message. It's a message that's tailored to if we talk to a policymaker, what matters to them. Talk to the administration is trying to implement a legislative framework within a specific sector. If it's energy, you mentioned agriculture but also this general pressure on sort of meeting the, trying to meet the sustainable development goals so some of the good work that's going into that but we need to develop those messages, those narratives. And I think part of it is, we talk about sort of the, we have to have powerful analogies. It's still difficult to have some conversations. Sometimes you start talking about technical stuff. It's like, I mean, you don't get further than that. You need to have safe space maybe for policymakers and public sector to talk about these things because I think there tends to be a lot of people get defensive also when they feel like they are at a sort of informational disadvantage. Like they don't get it, so they'll just say, they'll push back. So having those conversations, power for analogies, pictures are important. So some of the sort of the graphics that you produce, I think they can be valuable in those discussions. Yeah. Thank you, thank you Sachiko. So I must admit I failed miserably at a time management task. Which also is indicative to the super content my panelists have presented. So instead of opening the floor for questions, we will go to the closing statements and I will encourage you that instead of questions from the audience, you will pass to the panelists after at lunch. So I would like to ask each of my panelists here just one sentence. What is the one thing that you would do to foster European engagement and open source? Fiona first. Yeah, one sentence. Yeah, I've been like, I wanted to say this. Don't be afraid of legislation. If there's one thing I can say as someone who's working for the public sector, legislation is the DNA of the public sector. Think of it that way. I'll be the first to admit it doesn't always hit the mark, but if the citizens cannot, if citizens and all the different stakeholders do not help us sort of change the legislation so that it matches up with the challenges of today and encourage good policy and good legislation versus, yeah, I mean, the status quo then, it's hard to see things changing in the public sector for me. So that's just the point I wanted to make. Thank you, Tyra from Reserve and Tech Fund. Hello. Could you repeat the question, please, Marca? What's the one thing that you would do to foster the European open source ecosystem? One sentence. One sentence. I will pledge to stay involved. And do more research. And I will commit my time and energy to being part of Solutions. That's how. Good. I'll do it in three words. Read the report. Thank you, darling. I would say create clarity around how the public sector can engage with the outside communities beyond public procurement. So clarity around the rules of engagement. Cool. And since I can't improve on that, thank you for joining. Enjoy your lunch. Have a great rest of the conference.