 Welcome back to The Breakfast on Plus TV Africa. Our final conversation this morning, like we already mentioned, is on the Greenfield students who are still in captivity. News broke yesterday that another two students had been killed and of course it's important to have these conversations and see what must be done by the Nigerian government and the Kadrana State government to ensure that these set of Nigerians are brought back home. We're going to be speaking this morning with a former director at ASSS, Mr Dennis Samakri. Good morning. Thank you very much for joining us, sir. Good morning. Good morning. It was a pleasure. It's been heartbreaking, heart wrenching, whichever other word you can describe it with following the details of this Greenfield kidnapping, hearing also of another two students that have been found dead or have been killed. I want you, you know, you have years and years and years of experience with dealing with insecurity, dealing with intelligence gathering and all of that. Where do you think we might be failing these students, you know, seeing how things have played out? We are not, thank you for having me anyway this morning. You see, we are not pursuing this thing systematically. We are doing a haverside job. We're doing the right things at the same time. We're doing the wrong things at the same time. So we don't have results. So this is the problem. When I, what do I mean by that? This is a targeted violence situation whereby hostages were taken and if hostages were taken, you know, the governor has come out to say that he's not going to pay ransom. I agree with him because when you pay ransom, you fuel them to go and buy more arms and do all kinds of things and come back again. But when you say you're not paying ransom, there are other things you are supposed to do. You just don't say I don't pay ransom and then you sit back because remember when hostages are taken, the objective of these kidnappers is to collect ransom and if you're not taking, if you're not paying them ransom, then you have to put the heat on them. You have to put the heat on them whereby you either go after them or you don't pay them the money or you pay them the money and then, of course, try to recover the money back from them. There are things that are supposed to be done and these are not being done. We just say we're not paying the ransom and then, of course, we allow them to be running around, killing the kids to show that if you don't pay the ransom, this is what we can do. And I think that is a very bad approach of what we're doing for now. And is that why you think we have an escalation of the kidnappings in Nigeria? The attack on Greenfield University is a fifth of such since December 2020. And we just keep having these abductions here and there. Students killed, two more students killed right now. Information reaching us from the Kaduna State government has confirmed. So like you mentioned, you either pay the ransom or you hit the terrorists hard. So when it seems like both options are not even being implemented, do you think this is why we're having escalation in kidnappings in Nigeria? Definitely. That's why we're having the escalation because ransom were being paid before, including the Kaduna State government. It has been paid. And they feel that, oh, you don't want to pay down, they're letting us show you. We're going to show you what we can do, and it becomes a big problem. And there is an aspect that they are also forgetting. The families, the families of these hostages, the procedure is that you set up a team that will be liaising with the family and then make sure that, number one, they don't go behind and pay the ransom, number two, you comfort them and assure them that you are going to get their children back to them. I don't think this is being done because some of the parents are saying that the blood head about what is going on, they are still on GB government to go and bring their children. And that is what the hostage takers are looking for, they want the parents to put pressure on government to pay the ransom. So these are things that need to be done systematically. And of course, in this particular case, a response team that will go for such a rescue should have already been in the field. We cannot allow the Kibla Pass to be running around killing some people and then of course making political statements that should go in there and round them out. Okay. You mentioned that one of the challenges to this is when parents go behind the government and pay ransom, but when we put ourselves in the shoes of the parents or family members of these people, what other option do you think they might have when the governor Nassu Arufai makes statements as this and I quote him, he says, we will not give them any money and they will not make any profit from Kaduna. So do you then leave your child in the hands of fate? That's what I'm saying. Don't give them money, but do something about getting the children out. You don't stop giving them money and then like sacrifice the children to them. So if you are not going to give them money like you were giving before, then liaise with the security agents, let them go in there, isolate the hostages away from the Kibla Pass and bring back the hostages. All right. Dennis Amartri. Go and kill them all. You have to think of the collateral damage that will happen. So you need the expertise, the tactical expertise of the security agents to go in there, isolate them and do what they have to do. We've had multiple, multiple opportunities to do things like this and it doesn't seem like we've done very well. We also don't know the true picture of what happened with Kankara and the Kagara kidnappings if ransom was paid or not, if it was because of the superior firepower of Nigerian security agents. Nobody knows, but of course we would always as Nigerians pray that the same thing that happened in those situations will happen here. But from your security perspective, I want you to share with us how these things can be done. As a security expert, what are the things that we maybe need to have in place in order to carry out this successful rescue operation if we are aware of where these students are? Do we need snipers? Do we need to be able to track where these phone calls are coming from? Do we need to be able to block network in some of these places? We see some of these things in movies. But what are the things that we can try through our security agencies that we maybe don't have the equipment for? Well I think rescue has been taking place successfully in this country. The IRT group that was just recently dissolved in the Korakot and somewhere else, headed by Kerry, has done a very fantastic job. They have tracked them down, isolated, and then of course know where to go in there and release hostages. Not once, not twice, and they've done a successful job, which even the National Assembly has appreciated. So why are we not using them? Because these guys are still there. Now if it is equipment wise, there are even new equipments that are coming to play whereby you can use drones, you can use technology in going in there, and then of course knowing exactly where they are. We did it with the United States people, United States Marine who came here and then isolated the signal hostages, brought them out and shot the rest of them and took their hostages back out to freedom. They were assisted by Nigerian security forces, and then I think they can do the same thing. So why would you say we are not doing the same thing? That's what I mean, they are not being systematic about it. They are either robbing politics into it, making political statements, and then of course not dealing with the families, because the families are saying something else, the government is saying something else. We need Nigerians, there should be a signage and of course the families should trust the government that they are going to get it out. So if you say you are not paying ransom, then go ahead and use all kinds of avenues available to you. You know, in kidnap situations, the hardest part is to take the money, is to take the money. It's not a kidnapping part, it's taking the money, and with that you can have back notes, you can have back notes so that if you take the money you will follow the money, and of course arrest all the people that are involved, these are things that can be done. You can track them by technology, isolate them from the hostages, and kill them if you want to kill them, and get the hostages out. But don't be complacent about it where you allow them to feel that they are free, they can do whatever they want to do, put the heat on them. I think that's where we are lacking right now. We obviously lack a lot in that department because you would expect that when there's 50, 20, 30 citizens of a country in captivity, the whole country is expected to at least shut down until those people are freed, but we don't seem to be in that mood, everybody seems to be going to work and living their lives like nothing's happening. I want you to speak a little bit more on how we can in any way possible ensure that there's no repeat. Also bear in mind that there's still about 25 or 29 students of forestry mechanization that are still in captivity, even before the Greenfield incident happened, and there's still no word about whether they will be released or not. What can the Nigerian government do? What can the Kadronasic government do? I think number one, we are going to get the same old cracked records that will give that there should political will, political will to do this. We are talking about the mechanized family, the students and the Greenfield people. How about the Chibong girls? Chibong girls are still there, you know, Leah is still there. So you find out that there are people that are still in a, you know, in no state situation and the politicians are not doing enough because we have to forget about politics, especially when it comes to security. Let's forget about politics, religion, ethnicity and all the rest and face it professionally. We have to face this professionally because if we continue, you know, these, these racked up soldiers are, are playing games with us and then of course there are people who are suggesting, oh, let us go and get mercenaries. These are not rocket science, it just need dedication and we can do it. We've done it before. The Nigerian security agencies have done it before. So there is no need to even think about mercenaries to come from foreign countries to come and do it for us, you know. So it is very, very important that we approach this thing systematically. And when I say systematically, I mean, let's follow all the processes or from abduction to release. And if we follow the, follow these processes and then of course, coupled with crisis management, you know, the government, because I still don't see any kind of crisis management team that has to put together that is addressing this position, addressing this problem. We are still thinking of the military, but yes, if it is the military, at least there should be a group. And that is what the parents should be informed about. Look, with the set of government, I've set up a team and they are working on it. And then, of course, don't worry so far, they've done this, they've done this and the family will feel, you know, rest. But when you don't tell them anything and nobody's seen any positive result, instead of some guests today starting up, then we escalated the situation. And then what I remember, there are so many other schools in the country that are not protected. And then these bad deeds are looking out for the loopholes where they will still attack more schools. OK, well. So I think we're going to have to get out together. Mr. Makri, so do we know why kidnappers are targeting schools and students? Now, one thing, there are some, there are two, two reasons for that. The first reason which, you know, from our research, we discovered that, you know, some of these bandits are actually working with Boko Haram. And then, of course, who is Boko Haram? What does Boko Haram means? Western education is forbidden. So how do you make sure that Western education does not thrive? Is by making sure you kidnapped the students, do all kinds of things, and then students are getting scared, parents are getting scared. The government is closing down schools. Many schools have been closed down in the north. And when the schools are closed down, what does it tell you? Boko Haram is winning. That means their objective is succeeding. And then, of course, the second reason, again, the target schools is because these are young, impressionable boys and girls. They have parents who are emotionally attached to them. And if they're attached to them, what happens? They will be worried. And they are worried and their cries will force government to go and do the needful. Either your parents are, and then they release them to you, they go back and kidnap some more students. It has been happening. So it's like a trend. It's like a trend. All right, then it's a matter of... So these are the two reasons why they are targeting schools. Before we wrap up, in order for us to not hear of any other students from Greenfield killed in the next couple of days or weeks, is there any advice that you have to the parents and to the Kaduna State government? Is there any word that you maybe can share to ensure that we bring these kids home and nobody else loses their life in the period that they end captivity? Yes, of course. The Kaduna State government should horribly put together a team that will be a liaison between the families and government, let them bring them on a daily basis so that they know what is going on. They will not be pressuring the government if the government is talking to them regularly. That's number one. Number two, the Kaduna State government should take advantage, leverage on the security forces. Talk to them, what are we doing to get this? How are we going to get these people out? And then, of course, what do you need? If they need anything, the Kaduna State government should supply it, give it to them, and let them go in there and do what they have to do. But just making political statements we're not going to pay, and then, of course, allowing dead bodies to come out, artists. It's not the right way to do it. All right, thank you very much. Dennis Samakri from the Irectile DSS for speaking with us this morning. We, of course, pray for those students and we hope that we have them home as quickly as possible. Thanks for joining us once again. Thank you. And this is where we wrap up the breakfast here this Tuesday morning, 27th of April. We hope that you enjoyed the conversations that we had. Our hearts go out to those families who have lost loved ones from Greenfield and, of course, across the whole country for everyone who, of course, is having those dark days that never seem to end. We hope that we see some light at the end of the tunnel as quickly as possible. We will continue to have these conversations and we hope that they shed light on what possible solutions exist and the land during government can also take action here and there. If you missed out on any of this, remember to join us on our social media platforms. It's simply at Plus TV Africa on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, same with our YouTube channel at Plus TV Africa. I am Osao Gie, Ogban. And I am Annetta Felix, wishing you a beautiful day.