 Because it's coming right, coming right, coming right, all right. Good morning. Morning, everyone. Sounds a bit like we're coming from under the sea there with that audio. Does it sound like, OK, well, I'm doing my best. I'm Chris Morrison. And I'm Jane Secker. I'm your host today for Copyright and Online Learning. We are. The 47th webinar, which is good going, isn't it? It's not bad, yes. Yes, we're moving from crisis to uncertainty, maybe into a period of transition. We might, we did use the transition word, didn't we? So maybe we'll do a bit of rebranding later. But just to say, we are co-chairs of the Copyright and Online Learning Special Interest Group of ALT, the Association for Learning Technology. I work at the University of Kent. Jane works at City University of London. And we also do loads of stuff around Copyright and Interest.org, for those of you that are new to this. But I think looking at the participant list, most people are old-timers. But if you are new, welcome, welcome, welcome. This is the place to be if you're interested in copyright and online learning. Absolutely. So what have we got lined up today, Chris? Come on, take us there. We've got some good copyright news, some interesting stuff. There always does seem to be stuff to talk about, always lots of events. So we're going to be chatting about that. Oh, it says Confessions of a Learning Technologist. That's incorrect. I did not update the slide. Today's actually about Fair Dealing Week, isn't it? Oh, we're going to get Sandy and Greg to do some Confessions of a Learning Technologist. Yeah, and it says someone from the early. So this is the one slide that we didn't particularly scrutinise, particularly carefully. So let's move on. Let's move on very quickly. It's just, let's go straight to the last minute. So you pick this one up. Yes, OK. So I've taken to outdoor swimming. I was swimming last night. Yeah, it was a bit mad, actually. There were leaves blowing around all over the place. Apparently the water was 21 degrees, but I'm not convinced it was 21 degrees. It was the coldest yet, and I don't have a wetsuit. And yeah, it's absolutely great fun, actually. This is, I'm delighted that the pool near me remained open in the winter. And I have to say, I feel exhilarated at it. But Chris kind of always wanted to have to outdo me. Yes, and I can see Sam. Yeah, 6.5, I think. His name is in the area. So a dream of 21 degrees centigrade. The air temperature was 8 degrees when I got into the River Way. I think it is in Guildford a couple of weeks ago. So that's me. I think it was probably about, yeah, 8, maybe, around that. It was pretty. That face didn't get any better, did it, either? I've seen a whole series of photos, and basically you've just got that face on the whole time. Yeah, the rest of the photos are definitely not safe for work. I mean, nothing particularly bad, but really I didn't want to just be, pictures of me bathing. But anyway, that is a face really easy to put on. OK, it is outdoor swimming while swimming is brilliant. If you haven't tried all the science shows that the health benefits are marvellous as well as all that stuff. So, Sam, I think we might need to have a special presentation. Yeah, I think so. I think Sam can come and join us and talk a bit about some of her. You do like canoeing and kayaking, don't you, Sam, as well? All sorts of stuff. Yeah. Right, let's go, Chris. But Sam, come and join us. I'm actually a learning technologist under water, or in the water. Oh, a t-shirt ordered. OK, so, Chris. So, we have the archive here. And we said this last time we need to update, but now we are actually putting all these videos on YouTube. So, you will be able to see the one YouTube as well. We need to update that slide. Perhaps you can make a note for us to do that. At some point, Jane, that would be good. So, yeah, that's where the archive is. And let's move on to... Copyright news, copyright news, copyright news, copyright news, copyright news. So, some good news coming up today. Some people's favourite jingle. Some people's favourite jingle. There we go. Just maybe some of you will have seen this on the list. List copy seeks. So, Deborah Ferns, who is joining us today. Congratulations, Deborah, on your new role, Copywriter and Licensing Compliance Manager at Strathclyde. Excellent. And really good that you've got this vacancy out there to a new post. And I just think it's fantastic that we're seeing universities continuing to invest in copyright support, dedicated people working in this area. And so, that's going to be a really, really good opportunity. I'm sure those here today will be interested in looking at that. So, Deborah, I know you're going to talk a bit later about the event that's coming up, this girl event, if you are, in fact, are here and listening in. So, perhaps later on, if you want to say anything about that, we can hand over to you then. But I'm looking, is Deborah actually on the call at the moment? Yeah, Deborah's here. She's... I've made a decision to... Yeah, she is. Don't worry. Come on, I'm all over here. So, I'm looking in the long list. I apologise. Let's move on to the next item, please. Yes. So, we've had a busy week. We did what are called the digitally-enhanced webinars. I didn't feel very digitally-enhanced. I was just in teams. But your colleagues in the online learning team at Kent did an absolutely fantastic series of... Or they are doing a fantastic series of webinars. There was over 300 people there, Chris. Well done. It was crazy. Phil Anthony, my colleague, learning technologist of the year 2021, no doubt, he should be said, has been hosting these kind of for the same sort of time period that we have. But yeah, it's hugely popular. Really, really brilliant presentations. They allowed us to come in and do 15 minutes of chaos, which was very enjoyable. But yeah, no, it was really good to be part of it. Yeah, so that was our presentation. Yep, yep. And if you're interested, there's the recording that we avow a bit isn't right up yet. But if you go to the YouTube channel, hit that like and subscribe button and click the bell to never miss another video. I'm sure they will be very... Well, you would find it very interesting if you are wanting to find out about teaching with technology, digital technology, and how it all works. And I think they should be very, very keen on that. And I put up our slides. They need to invite you back to talk about your module in more depth. I've laid some fairly not very subtle hints. Thank you. Thank you. You're very kind. You're very kind. Yes, so our slides are available as well. If anybody wants to have a look at what we were talking about, but they will look quite familiar to many of you, I'm sure. Okay, next up. Shall I do this one? Yes, you do this one. Yeah, so I was interested. I follow Corey Doctorow, the sort of writer. He spoke, he did a keynote a couple of years ago, actually a select conference. And he is very interested in sort of issues related to copyright information and sort of digital technology. And I know we had a closed session last year about image and copyright sort of trolling and image reuse and creative commons. And we've been doing some work in this area. And actually, I was spotted on, he was tweeting about the facts that he's just written a piece on medium. I've just popped a link into that, which is an open letter to the CEO of Pixie, who were one of the picture agencies that I think some of us might have had some dealings with where we might be getting these demands for payment. So Corey actually got a couple of these himself. So it's based on his experience and he wrote an open letter to the CEO of Pixie. I would suggest you have a look at it. It's very, very interesting. And yeah, we are still working in this area, aren't we, as well? We're looking to put out, hopefully, a blog post about this fairly soon. Yeah, yeah. Some sort of guidance about things to think about at the very least. We had one recently, it wasn't a Pixie claim, but it was one of these types of claims. We went back to the lecturer and said, what happened here? Did you get permissions? Like, yeah, I call it from Pixie Bay. And then we said, we went back to this agency that contacted us and said, well, it's on Pixie Bay. They went, oh yeah, so it is. OK, no worries. It's like some of the level of, we talked about this in the past of due diligence, that they are actually doing always the first thing is to question whether they actually have the rights to be contacting you in the first place. Absolutely. But it is, he does also pick up the point about people using the Creative Commons 2.0 licenses and deliberately seeding sites like Flickr with photos that they know people are going to want to use and then chasing them up when they make very, very small mistakes with the way they might have attributed to the image. So there's quite a lot in that piece about it. Yeah, I definitely recommend that for an interest in read and something to think about if your university has had any of these threatening letters from similar companies. So the next thing, we're getting very excited about this conference. We were supposed to key note this in 2020, weren't we? That was the initial plan and then 2021. But now actually playful learning is taking place in July of 2022, barring any other unforeseen events. But we're really, really excited about this whole area of playfulness and as you know, Jane and I like playing games about copyright and being playful. But we have actually just written an article which is due to feature in an associated journal about our approach and what it means around copyright. So we're going to be exploring some of those in this presentation. And the call for papers is still out, isn't it? For anyone else involved? It is. It closes today. It does close today. So it's actually, it's not papers as such. So they're looking for all sorts of types of like a demo of a game. If you've got a game or, you know, it's any anything like really different as well. There's this sort of suggesting you might want to do something where you take people outside on a walk or all sorts of exciting ideas. I think it's just 300 words, the abstracts you've got to put in of what your idea is. So, yeah, sounds it's definitely going to be a fun event. And yeah, we're looking forward to it. We are indeed. OK, do you want to do the final item here? Well, I queue up the thing that we're going to do next. Yeah, so last item. I don't know if people who are CILIP members may well have seen the announcement about the CILIP Copyright Conference. It is actually happening online this year. So not a face to face event on the 18th of May. There's a feature. If you are a CILIP member in Information Professional, telling you a bit more about the event, I've just popped a link in as well, where you can find out more and register. So and James is joining us today. And I know James is going to be speaking at the conference, but also Professor Tanya Applin, who was Chris's supervisor when he was doing his masters. So lots of, yeah, lots of great speakers lined up there and check that out. Yes, so absolutely. So shall we move on? Are we ready for today's exciting? I think we might be. Yeah, so some of you may have seen this. So what I'm going to do now, seamless, a seamless transition. I say seamless because I'm talking in order to pad it out. Will this work? Here we go. We're going to play you the trailer. Hey, who's got a guest? Who's spotlighted a guest? We have our guest today, I think he'll be known to some of our regulars at our webinar series. It's Carl K Courtney, who is the Harvard Copyright Advisor. Got his bow tie on, looking fabulous today. Kyle, why have you joined us? What are we chatting about? Oh, well, I'm excited because fair use, fair dealing week is coming up and the last full week in February. And I think it's a great example of successful grassroots efforts organizing by cultural institutions, including libraries, archives and museums. Wow, that sounds like fun. So how can people find out more about this? Is there a website or something? Or do they have to, you know, read it in a book? No, they can go to fairuseweek.org and that will highlight all the number of ways in which you can celebrate fair use, fair dealing week. Which is participation welcomed. Excellent. I think there is an event coming up, Chris, as well, isn't there? So we might be a little bit involved in. We are, yeah. So just to say for the first time, we are organizing a whole week's worth of events in the UK. And it's not to celebrate fair use, it's to celebrate fair dealing and its relationship to fair use. So we're reaching across the pond and forging links with our colonial cousins. So, yes, we will be having a launch event and we will be welcoming Kyle to join us to explain a bit more about fair use and fair dealing and have a bit of a discussion. So we're looking forward to having you on Monday, the 21st of February as part of the Institute of Advanced Legal Studies webinar. Excellent. Yeah, well, thanks a lot for joining us. And we hope that we see some of our regulars at the webinar coming along during Fair Use, Fair Dealing Week. Yeah. Cheers. Bye. Bye. So there we are. Well, that was amazing. That was a recording. That's not the real Kyle. That's Kyle a few days ago, but he is. Oh, I suddenly got an advert for Les Mills Plus coming through on the other screen. Right. OK. We can't see it. Don't worry. We are very, very excited about Fair Dealing Week coming, Fair Use, Fair Dealing Week coming to the UK for the first time and that we've managed to get Kyle's involvement. And that's really what we're going to be talking about now, isn't it? I will get the slides back up so we can talk about the initial event. So is that where we're going to start, isn't it? Yeah. And I can just very, very briefly. I mean, the Fair Use Week, I think, has run for probably about three or four years. It started, Kyle started this in the US. Obviously, Fair Use is not the same as Fair Dealing, but the Canadians joined in quite quickly. And so that's why they kind of brand it Fair Use and Fair Dealing Week, because obviously, Canada has the same legal tradition as us. So they have the concept of Fair Dealing in their law. But to our knowledge, there has not been a Fair Dealing Week in the UK prior to what's happening next week. And we're excited about it. We're hoping that it might grow in future years. It might become something like Open Access Week. And, yeah, we really hope to see you at the Kickoff event that we're really delighted that the Institute of Advanced Legal Studies is going to be hosting, aren't we, Chris? So we are. Yes, there's the link. We're talking about the event on Monday evening and six o'clock. Chris has just popped the link in. But I think we're going to hand over, aren't we, to Sandy, who's from ILAS? Yes, we are going to hand over to Sandy. Yeah, yeah. Say a few words about that event. So, Sandy, are you with us? I am. I am. Can you hear me now? Yeah. I'm here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. OK, so I work for IELTS, the Institute of Advanced Legal Studies, which is I've only been there a short while, joined the pandemic. So that was interesting. But it is one of the largest legal research libraries, apparently in the world, apparently, as I just realised. Not that many people know about us, but we're part of the University of London School of Advanced Studies. But we are the Institute of Advanced Legal Studies based at Russell Square, Russell Square, if anybody wants to pop in. But it is actually you can't. Sorry, it's only a postgraduate library, unless unless you mention my name and I'll give you a tour. But Jane and Chris have asked me just to explain briefly how this connection came about. So I work with the library and I also work with University of London Press. We produce open access books. And one of my colleagues asked me about using a quotation in one of the books, and he mentioned fair use. And I thought I should know this. So I kind of went away and I looked in the library and I got a bit confused and thought, well, I'm sure I know this. I know what this is about. I then got confused between fair use, fair dealing. I then realised things had changed in 2014. I then sort of panicked a bit and then couldn't find the answer in the world's largest legal resource library. So what do you do? You contact Jane and Chris. So that was the connection there. So I met Jane and Chris a long, long time ago at a copyright conference in Poland where I was very impressed because I played their game and I won some quality street chocolates. And that's that's always a nice thing when you win a prize. So I remember, but it worked. It worked. So anyway, Jane and Chris came to my aid, pointed me in the right direction and my colleague was quite happy with the result. I then sort of tried to read up again on what everything's everything you're doing. Chris and Jane. And I realised there's a whole world out there that I didn't know about. I've always worked with lawyers. I've always told lawyers not to breach copyright. They very often ignore that advice. And then I realised that now I'm working for an academic institution. There's a whole new angle of copyright that students need. So I'm still quite new to that. But then I realised that everybody needs to know a bit more about this. Jane mentioned the Fair Dealing, the Fair Use Conference, the Fair Use Week. And I think Jane then came up with the art. Jane and Chris came up with the idea of why not do it in the UK? And I thought that's a good idea. And then I rather rationally said, maybe we can maybe we can help. There's probably seemed like a good idea. It is a good idea. We are really happy to be able to to hold the large event. But I'm just really pleased that I'm not presenting or speaking or trying to explain Fair Use and Fair Dealing to anybody else. Yeah. Oh, Sandy, I give it six months and I reckon you'll you'll be you'll you'll be very confident in it. So that's it, really. And we're hoping if you, you know, already signed up, you can still sign up for the webinar on Monday. Yeah, it will be recorded. So it will be available at a later stage. Fantastic. No, that's it. That's brilliant. That's really good. We also just it is worth saying, I think there was a point last year in the autumn where we were really hoping we were actually going to hold this event, weren't we at Russell Square in person? And we were going to be able to invite people to come and also potentially have people joining us online. We took the decision just before Christmas with the way things were with Omicron that it really wasn't looking good to have a face to face event. But what I really hope is maybe it might be the start of a beautiful partnership where we could have some more copyright events at the world's largest legal library. Yeah, yeah. Like no need to happen, perhaps with all the copyright books out as well. Yes. Thank you, Sandy. Thank you very much. Bye. Bye. And just to say, I put a note in there that I did. I did go to the aisles when I was doing my M.A. And it was very, very useful because it does have the stuff you need, the stuff that wasn't in the Kent Library and wasn't available online. So the power of libraries and specialist libraries right there. And I think the thing for me about this event that's going to be really exciting is clearly we're kind of kicking it off. We're explaining what this week is all about. But then we also wanted something that actually had quite a lot of substance to it. And the fact that we've got Emily Hudson talking about the project that she and Tanya Applin have been working on in terms of quotation norms. It's going to be really interesting. Some of you have seen Emily talk about that before, but I think in this context she will have more time. The work they've done is more advanced and we'll be able to be putting it in the context of how do we raise awareness of this in different communities and how does fair dealing actually support all those different communities? It's not as if it's something with only librarians or copyright users make use of. It's actually something which is there in the whole system for everyone to take advantage of. So it's great. We've got Kyle coming, I think, isn't it, as well, Chris? He's going to be tuning in. I think it's lunchtime for him over in Boston. And it's obviously a busy week for him because he's running a whole host of events for Fair Youth Week. But I do recommend having a look at the website if you haven't seen the kinds of things that loads of American libraries put on during that week. Because it really is, I think, showing us what we could be doing to further explain how copyright works to our users. So I've just moved on to the next event and I'm going to hand over to Deborah, Deborah Ferns, who said, Deborah is going to be talking about Debbie. I'm aware that in the last one we've actually got Kyle and Carl. So we've potentially got some confusion there with names. But Deborah, if you're there, are you able to talk to us about the SCURL event that you've organised? Yes, I am. Can you hear me? Can you see me? We can hear you, definitely. We can't see you. No, I can see you, you're kind of flashing on and off. I've put the camera on, so hopefully you can all see me. So SCURL have organised a fair dealing coffee morning on the Thursday, the 24th of February from 10 to 11. So we're really delighted to welcome Debbie McDonald, who's the intellectual property manager at the British Council. Debbie has kindly agreed to deliver a 20 to 25 minute presentation around the challenges of using UK copyright exceptions outside the UK, along with assessing the associated risk and best practice. This will be followed by a Q&A, along with further discussion around fair dealing and the UK copyright exceptions with panel members and attendees. So you can sign up for that event at the SCURL website. And when registering for the event, you'll be sent a link with a short MS form prior to the event starting. So this form will allow you to highlight any circumstances where you've used copyright exceptions and any discussion points that you'd like to raise. Now, it's optional to provide your name, but if you do decide to provide your name or you can and particularly if you want to discuss these topics more at the event. So we're hoping people will make use of the form because it will give us a basis for discussions and give a good opportunity to discuss fair dealing in an open and safe environment. The sessions intended to be informal and the recording that we're making will only be used for note taking. This is really to encourage open discussion between participants on their experience of using fair dealing or if you have any questions around using the legal framework. Hopefully we're hoping that the output from the event will be a blog entry, which will capture the themes of the discussion. So that's really the base of the event and I've encouraged people to to sign up. Thank you very much, Deborah. I mean, it's going to be a really, really valuable on this. We've heard Debbie speak at these events before. She's part of our gang. She's got a really interesting perspective because of that role that British Council dealing with or working with people right across the world. And it's a question that we get asked all the time, isn't it, in the copyright world? Well, how does it work if I'm in the UK and I'm putting something on the Internet and then people are accessing it all around the world and you're kind of sometimes really they're OK. They're expecting a couple of sentences, aren't they? That's going to explain the whole thing. And then you have to say, well, here we go. But having said that, Debbie is the person to talk us through that and to answer the questions and work through things in practice. So I think it's just fantastic that you've got how lined up to do it and really great to see this girl continuing to put together really, really great events that are really, you know, delivering an awful lot of helpful advice and information to people. Absolutely. Deborah, did you want to say anything about your a plug for your vacancy in your team to come work with you at all? Yes, I mean, I'm taking on the the manager role at Strathclyde from the start of April. So we have a vacancy for a copyright and licensing. That's fantastic. Yeah, so really, I would encourage anyone with experience of copyright law to apply. It's it's quite a varied role, dealing with all kinds of copyright inquiries and delivering training to staff and students and developing our guidance and training materials. So I've been at Strathclyde for three and a half years and I've enjoyed working there, hence staying on in this promoted role. So it would be great if we get lots of applicants. Excellent, excellent. Yes. And also just to add to that, Deborah, in your background and having worked for just Legal, a really fantastic person to work with, if for anyone that's lucky enough to get that role and to be able to build that capacity within your university and then work across the sector. So it's it's really great news, as I said before. Thank you. No worries. OK, let's go back. So we have another event as well, don't we? We do have another event going on during Fair Use Week. I am just selecting Fair Use, Fair Dealing Week. That's not going to get confusing or annoying at all, is it? So we have this event happening on Wednesday at 5 p.m., 5 p.m., 6.30, Creative Reuse at Kent, the University of Kent. So I've got colleagues of mine joining me to talk through what happens, what has happened in practice at the University of Kent. So we've got Professor Richard Reese is going to kick us off. He's the chair of our Copyright Steering Group. He's been very involved in copyright matters. He was at Manchester before he came to Kent. So he kind of slightly got lumbered with the role of life. But actually, he is really interested and has been really strongly supportive of the work we've been doing. Dr. Richard Misak, who's the next face next to Richard R. He is a documentary filmmaker, as well as a senior lecturer in film and media studies at the university. So, Jane, you can drop in the chat. Can you the copyright waffle we did with Richard? That's a really fascinating one. I can, yes. Because he's going to talk to us all about reuse. He reuses other people's content in his own films all the time and, in fact, has a real interest in copyright law and how it acts as sometimes a barrier to creativity, what interesting ways and provocations as well. Sometimes that he does towards copyright law in his work. So that's going to be fantastic to hear from him. Dr. Alex Kovachi is a lecturer in digital arts and specialism in virtual reality. So I've been doing some teaching guest lecturing with her students to use the copyright card game when we teach with Alex. So she's going to be talking to us about that teaching. How do they prepare students for futures, digital, digital, artistic and similar innovative jobs in the industry and how do they get their heads around intellectual property and how do we support them at the university? And then last but not least on the bill is Dr. Ben Marsh of the Marsh family, the Internet Sensations, who came shots to fame in the first lockdown with their parody versions of songs to keep our spirits up. And Jane and I did another copyright waffle podcast interview with Ben last year. So what we're doing here is we're basically following up on that conversation. What's the latest? What's happened? And it'll be really interesting to see how his experiences with relying on fair dealing or perhaps not being able to rely on fair dealing because of the the realities of how YouTube operate and how the platforms operate, but also seeing his development from having been someone who was who was a remixer and a paradist is now someone who's actually an established content creator and has other people wanting to reuse his work. So that's going to be a fascinating insight from him. And we would hope there will be some element of musical something or other, but we'll have to wait and see for the day to see how that all pans out. But I'm really, really looking forward to that session. And there's the the slide here is this is me and Jane talking to Ben. So that's the plug for that. He's such a nice guy as well, isn't he? He's lovely. Oh, he's he's he's brilliant. Yeah, he's really great. He's he's he's a lovely guy. He's a very I mean, his eminent background. He's he's a historian. So, you know, you and him have got lots of history nerding. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. There's just there is one other event that's happening during Fair Dealing Week that is being organised primarily for universities who are in the London area. It's being put on by the Bloomsbury Learning Exchange. So there's not actually a booking link for that. If you do want to go along, I've just popped the details in the chat. You need to send an email to Sarah Sherman, who is the manager of the Bloomsbury Learning Exchange. But we're going to be having a panel discussion. That is also, I believe, on Thursday, the 24th of February in the afternoon. So it's the same day as the Skull Event, but it's it's later in the afternoon. Chris and I are going to be joining a panel. I believe that Sam Ahern, who's with us from UCL, will also be joining us and Stephen Penton, Copyright Librarian at City University. So we should be having a lively discussion. And it's very informal, open to anyone who wants to come along. So if you're not part of the Bloomsbury Learning Exchange and you are interested, if you just drop an email to Sarah Sherman and she will make sure you get an invite to that. So I think that's it of all our events, isn't it? I think that's the events. Is there an event we've forgotten about? Is someone sitting there thinking, how I've done all this work and I told you all about it and you left me off the list? Is there anyone or have we have we fully covered everything that we know that's happening? If anybody does at this point want to put on an event, it's probably a bit late, but feel free because it's it's it's you just put whatever it is you're doing, even if it's not an event. If it's just something you're doing, something you're planning on doing and raising awareness in your institution, you can go to the fairuseweek.org website and you can register it there. I think the more we can do to demonstrate that this is an area that we are all behind, I think the more we would get some critical mass to raise awareness. Yeah, and just a reminder as well, if you do want a link that's got all the events that we've just talked about a moment ago, we did a blog post about that just earlier this week. And so if you go to the get set for a fair deal in week, you will find the booking links for all the different events Institute of Advanced Legal Studies at University of Kent, the Skirl event and the the BLE event. So has anyone got any we've got a bit of time, has anyone got any questions, anything that they'd like to ask about either the events or about, you know, some of the challenges of promoting fair dealing? Just wondering. Yeah, because I was I was going to say if you can put those links as wide as you can in your own networks, yes, but is there any anything anyone wanted to comment on about their experiences of trying to raise awareness of this? I know sometimes copyright isn't the easiest topic to get on the agenda. I've been very careful not to use copyright as the number one kind of headline thing when advertising our events at Kent to talk about creative reuse as being and how we do creative teaching and research and engagement. If no one's got anything to add, we could we can move on. But we do have it with we're doing very well for time today. We are. We are. Yeah. So Caroline, you've just had a question for a student asking if they can rely on fair use for images in their thesis. So is that the word in they use specifically as well, Caroline? Yeah. OK, yeah. It's something I want to pick up on the panel discussion, actually. When I I've asked this question, we've had discussions about this in the past, you know, you can't use fair use when you're not under American law because fair use is American concept. But sometimes we find ourselves going through certain steps. We do think about fair dealing and of course we do that all the time. But when you think about it in that global context, and again, it'll be interesting to see if Debbie's got some thoughts on this because of the power of American tech companies and publishing companies. Sometimes it's kind of useful to have an awareness of fair use in the back of your mind, even when you're thinking through a fair dealing question. I'm going to pose that question to Emily and Kyle and see what their thoughts are about that. Because strictly speaking, no, of course, you don't apply fair use if you're talking about a UK based author in a UK based institution, putting something in a primarily UK based repository or whatever. But fair use has quite a lot of influence, I think, on way people think about things. So that's a thought that's in my mind. It's also one of the things I'm thinking about, Chris, is whether somebody comes to you with a question like that. Is this a kind of teachable moment? Is it the time they kind of want to know whether they can put the image in their thesis in some ways? And they probably heard about the concept of fair use. So do you use it as an opportunity to kind of explain to them? Well, of course, fair use doesn't apply in the UK. And but we have a similar concept and it's called fair dealing. And, you know, I mean, in essence, it largely does do quite a similar thing. So there probably is a way they can put an image in their thesis and rely on a copyright exception. But it's just how far you kind of labour the point. You know, I would say, you know, you kind of you probably should go there and say, well, I just need to explain that fair use is an American concept. It doesn't apply in the UK, but we do have something similar. But, you know, I think at that point, what you don't want to do is floor them with a sort of, you know, I'm now going to go into the huge amount of detail about the difference between US and UK law. So, you know, I'm I'm I'm sort of I think I would be inclined to say something Caroline to obviously explain the fair use is an American concept. But, you know, the kind of in answer to their question about can they do this? Yes, they probably can under, you know, an exception, such as quotation or illustration for instruction. And, you know, and see how it goes. If it's a student that's working in a kind of creative area, then they may want to know more about how copyright works. They may that may be all they want to know that, but, you know, for some, I think some students, you know, it might kind of intrigue them. They might say, oh, I hadn't really realised about this. That's a much more helpful answer than the one I gave. I think it was a bit wafty. Yeah, not a full essay on the topic. Well, you were preoccupied with your bread. We could see what you were up. You could see me operate. I think that's what it's looking like. Oh, it's looking. It's looking doughy. It's doughy. It's beginning of its bulk fermentation process. So very nice. Simon's got an event. Simon, you've got your event at the top of the list, you say, at UWA. Do you want to do you want to come on and tell us a bit about what you're up to? Oh, no worries. OK, leap leap of the dark. I mean, I think, yeah, it's when you're trying something new, not quite sure how it's going to go. And I think we we said at the beginning of this, we want to try to get the ball rolling, but we don't need to actually be involved in all the events. And it appears now that we are involved in most of them, which is great, actually. And we're really, really pleased. Only this year. Only this year. But I think I think if we can just see what happens here, I think what we've got here is quality rather than quantity. I mean, I think we've got some really great things. So I think that's that's going to be really good. Yes. OK, so should we get the slides up? We're into we're into the final straight now, aren't we? Absolutely. Yeah. So I am on my way to talking about what's coming up in future webinars. Yeah. So we've got we've got some really good webinars lined up, haven't we? Next slide. Next one, Mark. Roxanne and Eleanor from the University of Arts, London. This is going to be brilliant. Roxanne is excellent and she is she used a bit of the V&A and then moved to the University of the Arts, London in this role, which is working with design students, art students and talking to them about intellectual property and helping them understand how it impacts on their careers, whilst also looking at some of the bigger, meatier questions about what it means. So that's going to be a fantastic session. Absolutely. Copyright People's Journeys. That's a well funny way of putting it, Chris, but anyway, we did a really popular session last year where we had three copyright specialists. We had Kate Vassili, we had Simon Cox and we had Hannah Pyman talk about becoming a copyright specialist. And we would like to put out a call early on for other speakers who might want to come and join the session on the 15th of April and maybe tell their story. And it is about becoming, it is a journey. So it isn't about being a copyright specialist. So whatever kind of level you feel like your knowledge is at, we really like to hear from you. We have one speaker, I think, already who's confirmed that they are happy to do it, who is very new to the copyright world. But we confirmed or we're in discussions at the moment. But yes, thinking about it. OK, I'm not saying I'm not saying any more. I'm not letting me cut out the back. But yeah, if anyone else feels the urge to tell their story and it can be as much or as little about copyright as you want. So if you remember Kate's journey into copyright, it was it was a fantastic kind of rundown of some of her career, wasn't it, and how she ended up accidentally almost becoming Middlesex Copyright Advisor and Hannah and Simon as well. It was really good to hear from all three of them. So we're looking forward to that one. And that's going to be a regular feature. We just think this is this is kind of what we want to be doing, is is definitely to know each other better. How do we get here and how much the kind of diverse perspective is all help us if we if we come from different backgrounds? So that's great. It's always in the IPO confirm, aren't we? I think we're going to be talking in May. We're hoping about a big, big job to do, putting together all the stuff with this framework. So we're kind of waiting for them. But they have they have agreed they will come and talk to us. And maybe they'll be the license updates as ever. If you have any topics that you want to discuss, please let us know. We're not fully booked up. We do have a schedule for the year that we want to make sure we've kind of got people lined up. So there we are. Just to say, Roxanne has got. Are you going to play the song when she comes on? Because she knows she really likes people doing that. No, we've had that discussion and then we're going to do that. Although I did I was going to play bass along to it. Wasn't I? That's the thing. Anyway, that's that's. But this is this is the piece that that Roxanne wrote about what she's doing in this area. So you might want to read that. But of course, if you tune in next month, you'll get the full thing directly from her. And I don't know that she's she's been working with. Excellent. Excellent. Well, that leaves us with time for we've got something a bit special now. Haven't we? You know, we have this. You know that we have the one last thing as a standing agenda item. Now we've got to put a bit of effort into it this time around. So please don't leave now. And in fact, if you just give me a moment, I will eventually get myself sorted to swap over. Attention is mounting. Attention is mounting. Where this is going is that we know how much people love Chris's jingles and the Chris has been in jingle heaven. Haven't you? You've been very busy here. So we have a one last thing jingle. Hopefully the sound will be shared. This is a brief that they gave me. So let's see. Did I do well? Are you going to tell them what the brief was? Well, OK, it was it was kind of musical power ballot, wasn't it? It was 1980s inspired bit Winnie Houston. Go go for it, Chris. Take it away. Oh, well, it all comes to its end. And we know you have to go. You only set aside enough for this. But there's one more gift we'd like to bestow. We do. Which stands on its way back. One last thing. One last thing. Have a moment. Look at it. It's something magic there. Something magic. Yes, OK. I think the talents are wasted on jingles. You think they're wasted on jingles? I mean, I think I think really, you know, you you you're destined for better things bigger. Well, I saw where you're segwaying. You're segwaying. Greater things. No, the one last thing. It's about as many of you know, I work at the University of Kent. I will have worked at the University of Kent 10 years this October. I joined in 2012. I am actually moving on from the University of Kent. And as of the end of April, I will be taking up the post of copyright and licensing specialist and the Fortnian libraries and the University of Oxford working for Ruth Maloney, the fabulous Ruth. Now, is Ruth on the call today? Did she? I don't think she is. I'm not sure she is. She's very, very busy. She's got lots of things to do. And that's why she's employing someone else. She's missing the copyright specialist. So just wanted to let you all know that. I mean, this is this is, I think, going to continue to give me the opportunity to do this sort of thing and to work with everyone across the whole sector and raise the profile of copyright and put it into all those different areas. We know tricky questions, not straightforward answers. I'm still going to be here. I'm still going to be here in, and I'm going to stop sharing the screen. I'm still going to be in Canterbury, going to Oxford where necessary. So it's one of those kind of hybrid remote and on premise type of arrangements. So yeah, interesting. It's fantastic news. So you've got lots of lovely messages there. I think at this moment, you might need to just play that jingle again. I think this is the moment to just play it one last time. One more time, one last time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then if anyone wants to come on and have a chat, then that would be lovely. We'll play it one last time and then I will stop the recording after that and people can have a chat with you. But yes, it's super exciting and really hoping Chris that in this role, you know, you will provide real leadership for the sector. We're expecting great things. Or at least some cheesy novelty jingles at the very least. Absolutely. Yes, yes. I have to go. You only set aside enough for this, but there's one more gift we'd like to bestow. Much times on its way back last week. Wasn't that great? Now people feel free to leave.