 Aloha and welcome to another episode of Hawaii Food and Farmer series. I'm your co-host Matt Johnson here with justina spirit to Just like every Thursday afternoon at 4 p.m. As always, please join the conversation on Twitter at think tech H I and Justine once you go ahead and introduce our guests today. Yes. Thank you Matt So we are lucky today to have Ashley Lukens who is the program director for the Hawaii Center for Food Safety So as we like to kind of discuss on the show, there's so many different roles and Skills and people that are behind making our food system in Hawaii a more sustainable and productive and exciting place so Ashley has a long history of Work here in Hawaii focusing on food and also has a diverse background in a number of different areas So thank you so much for coming on the show Ashley Yeah, I also have a background in independent media. So oh wow Perfect. Yeah, happy to be here. Yeah, awesome. So why don't we start with um, so Center for Food Safety opened Here in Hawaii just two years ago and you kind of started that program Why don't you kind of describe your position and the role the Center for Food Safety or their kind of mission And how that came to establish an office here in Hawaii cool So CFS was the brainchild of a longtime sort of anti-globalization and food activist Andrew Kimbrell And he realized that there wasn't anybody Working at the intersection of ag in the environment and industrial agriculture is one of the primary drivers of some of the Environmental problems that we all really fear climate change habitat loss water degradation and The sort of incarceration and torturing of animals and he thought rather than work on those issues in a silo Why don't we try to change the food system and bring about a system that actually promotes the environment rather than herd it? They say their first kind of weapon was legal work. So we're primarily a law firm And we do really sexy things like defend Counties like Kauai Maui and Hawaii Island in their lawsuits against large-scale ag or chemical companies But we also do really boring things like file comments on regulatory rule changes and as sort of the movement to Regulate chemical companies in Hawaii ramped up here Andy realized we needed an office And that's when he found me And I was what I like to call a recreational lobbyist at the legislature like most people like wasn't paid It went down there and advocated for bills that were important to me. I was really interested in Supporting a local food system and Andy and I kind of combined our superpowers And we've been trying to do something here that leverages the national resources That CFS brings to bear but also complements and builds capacity within all The different sort of sub movements in Hawaii's broader food movement Yeah, and so that kind of seems like one is the legislation Kind of focused on food, but what you talk about that kind of capacity building It's almost a whole different arena. So you're really guys are are taking on a lot And so kind of what specifically what kind of projects or programs you run to kind of Cultivate that. Yeah, so we've got a program called building power And the idea I at least from where I'm sitting and and I come at this as a political scientist So what are the ingredients to social change? It's like the academic question Well, you need people that are informed But you need people that are empowered that believe that they have the capacity to affect change And then you need to give them access to those change making opportunities And so building power really tries to work on all three of those so we provide Educational opportunities to anybody in Hawaii who's interested in issues related to food in the environment And we normally do this through speaker series or online webinars And then we do trainings like if you want to know about how to be an effective public speaker We offer trainings that are open to activists if you want to know how to lobby at the ledge We offer trainings to activists So we're trying to both inform them and empower them and then we have this you know Social media and email focused alert system that says if there are opportunities for you to engage and use your voice We're gonna let you know like plug into us because a lot of people times people like I had no idea That that was going down at the ledge, you know, and they're sneaky down there There's a lot to decipher just I mean the language of legislation and then the timing of hearings and and that kind of it's designed to be I think to Sort of dampen participation and our lack of participation serves Corporate interests, you know, I go into when I started this job I would go into a hearing and it would be me and the biotech lobbyist, right? Now it's me and like 30 different lobbyists that that different industry groups and sort of industrial ag interests have put in the room And all those people are paid. They have staff. They have resources to really be down there and I'm lucky I also have you know staff and resources to do my job But I am alone in that work and that's why we just try to create opportunities For people to participate, you know, whether it's like lobbying for bills that allow for Video testimony from the neighbor islands, you know, oh, so we want to do the good government stuff, too not just food stuff So that that's awesome to hear about how you're starting to have more organizations involved going down in lobbying Can you talk and you've done a great job of really getting yourself out there? your name is starting to become well known and Can you talk about some of the specific things you guys have been working on? I know you've just mentioned been doing some work on the neighbor islands some issues over on Kauai as well as Maui Can you talk a little bit about about those and what was kind of the I guess the centerpiece or the issues that you were addressing? Yeah, so I would say the movement around regulating chemical companies in Hawaii begins long before me Every every day citizens got together as the biotech industry sort of expanded their footprint here And they were asking questions, you know, what are you doing? What are you growing? What are you spraying? And they were really met with we don't need to tell you we don't have to tell you So they reached out to their elected officials and the elected officials said well, we'll try to figure out what you're up to And those elected officials were also met with we're not going to tell you You don't have a right to know and so those same citizens groups passed Ordinances in each of their counties on Kauai on Maui and on Hawaii Island that were Generally if we're going to generalize about the ordinances, they are all three very different They said let's increase transparency and regulation around these operations So I come into the picture after all of that grass is organizing Justine and I I remember that dear remember the day I went on a tour of Monsanto as a neighborhood board member I think I was outside with a sign So I come into this after that hard work and what we wanted to do as an organization CFS is say we have the Legal capacity to defend counties who are trying to pass protections that their citizens want to see in place Right, so it's the citizens that have driven this CFS provides the legal work and to the extent that I Represent CFS in Hawaii. I have done a lot of the news interviews around that and also Served as our lobbyists at the legislature, but none of this wouldn't have would have happened without Everyday people getting together and saying let's use our government to do what it is designed to do and that's protect Us from industrial interests. I always tell people, you know, if you want to eat healthy You want to avoid pesticides in your food? There are things you can do as an individual, right? You can buy organic You can know your farmer But there's nothing you can do if you live alongside a field where restricted use pesticides are sprayed on a daily basis That's the purpose of government purpose of government is to ensure that we're all protected and so people Lobbied their government their government passed laws and what CFS has done is defend those counties in their litigation And I think that's what's been interesting too for me like I think a lot of times Center for Food Safety is associated with with anti Biotech, but there's also a lot more that goes on with that you're talking about, you know Proper use of pesticide spray knowing what's being sprayed just having that transparency you're talking about I think that's something that a lot of there's a lot of confusion around with the biotech companies because there's a lot of Different things happening other than just the concept of GMO itself And that's what I think is interesting with you guys and what you're focusing on is is a lot of different things and trying to just Be transparent neighbors, which sounds like is a large part of what you're trying to do Yeah, I mean, I think it's a double moment, right? It's like we want to say no to what we need to say no to but we really need to say yes to what we want And I think one of the things that's a model for the world about Hawaii is that we have this amazing historically rooted indigenous local food system that provides us a pathway forward a Better food system that can feed people. That's good for the environment And we want to do both we want to support that food system and help it reemerge and Support local farmers, but we also want to say that there are very real threats posed by a certain number of agar of agar chemical interests here in the state and They're not doing genetic engineering kind of writ large willy-nilly. It's not like a Drought resistant crop variety. It's not even a nutritionally fortified crop variety What they do here by and large is herbicide tolerant corn and soy. That's what they're doing. So they are by Definition of the crops that they're testing and developing here using High volumes of herbicides to demonstrate the virility of the seed varieties that they're testing here. So It's it's for me. It's not even an anti-gmo question. I mean, certainly there are a lot of people that Are in the anti-gmo movement that are concerned about the technology and we absolutely also need to talk about that But here in Hawaii, I feel the question first and foremost is what is the application of the technology here on our land? And that's why when you look at who's Engaged in GMO Here it's the world's largest chemical companies who sell the herbicides that they're designing the crops to be resistant to So I want to do both but I also try to get really clear on the issue that it's like to have this kind of philosophical Conversation about technologies and ag and like tools in the toolkit. I'm down As long as we also address what's really happening here You hear that tools in the toolkit quite often. That's quite a yeah, it's actually yeah, that sounds great Yeah, it sounds benign, right? Yeah, and certainly maybe it could be but Every tool is a weapon if you use it, right? And I think it's really important that we just stick to the numbers. That's why we publish this I mean one of the things that we do is we're think tank, right? So we have seven staff PhDs in the organization that work across the US and they all came together Publish a pesticide report that's really driven our work over the past two years Okay We're gonna take a quick break and then get a little more information about the report and then hear a little more about Ashley I'm Jay Fidel and I'm the host of research in Manoa Mondays from 12 to 1 on think take Hawaii comm Take a look at us and learn about Geophysics learn about planetology learn about the ocean and earth sciences at UH Manoa. You'll really enjoy it So come around we'll see you then For a very healthy summer watch Viva Hawaii. We're giving you the best tips and with our best health coach here So Viva health coach Viva la comida saludable Hi, I'm Ethan Allen host of likeable science on think take Hawaii I hope you'll join me each Friday afternoon as we explore the amazing world of science We bring on interesting guests scientists from all walks of life from all walks of science to talk about the work They do why they do it and more or why it's interesting to you What the science really means to your life? It's impacts on you how it's shaping the world around you and why you should care about it I do hope to join me every Friday at 2 p.m. For a likeable science Aloha and welcome back to Hawaii food and farmer series everyone's favorite part of their Thursday I'm your co-host justinie spirits you this is Matthew Johnson Today is a special day because we have Ashley lookins the program director of Hawaii Center for food safety So we were just talking about all the weapons in our Okay, you're coming from this pesticide angle Let's talk about you commissioned this report So yeah, how how did that kind of come about what kind of information does that happen there and how has been sharing that? Well, yeah, so I helped write it and actually the for me It was a personal journey when I got involved in this issue. I had it. I didn't really know why people were so Amped up about the GMO and Issue in Hawaii. So I wanted to get sense of like what is what data is out there? So we didn't do any primary research It's all bringing together the publicly accessible data on the GECd industry in the state of Hawaii What exactly they're doing here? It turns out to do it do experimental crop varieties You have to register it with the USDA So we found out what crops they're growing what they're testing what they're genetically modifying the plants to do Awesome The next thing we wanted to do is say if we know that it's for herbicide resistant corn and soy and we think that Has pesticide use associated with it. What's the data on pesticide use? Right and then finally if we know that they're using more pesticides, which the data clearly shows What does the science tell us about the health impacts of? Pesticide exposure because so often we're told like the science is equivocal like the juries out We don't know if GMOs are dangerous Maybe But the science on pesticide exposure is really clear It's dangerous and it's particularly dangerous to young children To the developing fetus and pregnant women and to farm workers and farm workers not because Because they're most frequently exposed, but I had this aha moment recently where I realized well What if you live next to a field where these pesticides are sprayed every day and the farm worker? Research might actually also be important because it can help you know what? low-level Daily chronic exposure to pesticides what the impacts of that kind of exposure are So is there has the industry been here long enough? Yeah, I know you said you didn't put do any of that research You're on your own now But is has it been here long enough that you we can start to look at that the world is and so long range Epidemiological studies are a massive feat in the public health sector It takes bringing together med schools and research centers and there it that does not exist Around this area of expertise. You're talking about environmental and pediatric toxicology, right? So no, we don't have the expertise or the institutions in place to do those studies here But I think everybody wants to see it and I know that Whatever power I have or the organization has or our movement has to demand those studies we're doing it And the government just published a joint fact-finding study actually for the island of Kauai where they tried to sift through the data And they made the very same policy recommendations that we've been making okay, you know We have to increase transparency Doctors can't do their jobs if they don't know what pesticides are being sprayed because it was on the island of Kauai where there Is some issues with schools where children were getting sick in the school and they were trying to figure out What was happening totally and so pesticide drift was one of the areas to concern. What was the results of that? I wasn't yeah exactly what happened, right? So why may a Canyon Middle School was actually evacuated twice now the teachers the community in Waimea Believe that it was pesticide drift and there's even video That the teacher shot the day of the evacuation of the field right next to the school being sprayed But the Department of Agriculture upon investigating the incident said it was due to a weed That was growing alongside the school called Stinkweed So they published a report called the stink weed study, which I would encourage you to read But one of the things that's interesting about the stink weed study It talks a lot about stink weed and how this could possibly have sickened all these kids and sent them to the hospital And this is the State Department of Agriculture Yes But at the end of it it does actually give a log of all the pesticides that are sprayed on a regular basis Around Waimea Canyon Middle School just in like an appendix. They said yeah, maybe this In here and that's fascinating Because again when you're talking about a school evacuation You're talking about acute exposure and that's a kind of exposure that you can detect with your eyes your nose You might faint you might vomit and acute exposure is dangerous can lead to a lifelong set of impacts It can also kill you But low-level daily exposure you can't detect you wouldn't know to pick up a phone You wouldn't evacuate the school It would just be on the surfaces and in the air and in the water They've found chlorpyrifos in the water fountains at Waimea Canyon Middle School multiple times The EPA just proposed banning chlorpyrifos. So chlorpyrifos for those who don't know Decide in organophosphate That the seed companies use in Hawaii very regularly. We were just getting the numbers on how much they use It's really alarming. We know it's being sprayed And we know that children are going to school right alongside where this is being sprayed and the science On chlorpyrifos is really clear It leads to neurological impacts and in kids ADHD Autism it leads to asthma Right, so the science is really clear about that We know that chronic exposure is the problem and yet the seed companies are saying no the problem is stink weed And that if you require us to tell us what you're spraying you're going to destroy farming in Hawaii now I Have a Have a sneaking suspicion that that might not actually happen You know and I would just like the Department of Agriculture to take the recommendations of the joint fat binding committee Which they spent two hundred fifty thousand dollars funding Maybe take the recommendation of every single pediatrician That's testified publicly on the issue to like let's protect our cakey, right? Let's tell doctors what you're spraying and maybe the other thing that the report recommended and we've been advocating for his buffer zones Maybe if you're gonna spray the bad stuff Don't do in your schools Seems like a compromise to me, but the industry again is is putting the full force of Their marketing dollars, which not surprisingly exceeds our own they have some money To fight that and actually to really misrepresent it. So what you know if anybody wants to do a quick Google on me You'll hear that I'm pretty anti-farmer. I wish I could Google Okay, really fast right there. Well, which is interesting when we had Monica Ivy on who's a PR rep for Monsanto. We talked to her about before she took this position She was selling handbags or it was in like a designer like bag and since taking on this role She it's been you know her name has been kind of put out there She's been kind of ostracized and harassed online and and similar Similar to you it kind of sounds like you know being a public Person so it's it's just fascinating to kind of hear what does motivate you to like stay in this you could very Yeah, easily fall into the background Yeah, no Cuz like I mean like we were talking before about you have went to this meeting Over on Molokai. I mean there's been multiple meetings you go to and I mean there's people Publicly coming after you and yeah, I think that's a great thing that we want to hear about is like How do you how do you put up with that? How's that? How's that? Yeah? You know, there's that like Kind of Adage or something like if they're going against you you're doing something, right? You know and and the amount of ire that our movement has earned and not me The the movement to regulate chemical companies, you know, I think that tells us that we're being effective You know why are the world's largest chemical companies? You know paying people in Hawaii to attack grassroots social movement that frankly isn't making radical demands, you know, we're not saying ban all GMOs ever You know some people are and like we need them in the movement But I think it tells us that we're being effective and that we're hitting on Much deeper structural issue and I think for those who aren't very aren't very interested in like GMO as a technology or even pesticides The other bigger question is like what is the future of our food system? And do we want a food system that's driven by large-scale? multinational corporate interests or do we want a food system that's driven by the grit tenacity and creativity of local people local businesses and local farmers and as somebody who comes out of this as a small business owner and Like really tried to provide a niche set of Services to people in Hawaii who want it to live a better way. I will tell you that I Don't see a role For these mega corporations in a world where we're dealing with issues like climate change They just do not have our environmental and public health interests At the front of their business. In fact, they're designed to put profit before people and I know local business owners I might be talking to some of them right now and like local business owners make decisions based on the local values and The local impact that they have that to me is the future of food. It's local It's not large-scale multinational corporations like Monsanto if they're organic farming in Cunea awesome Great. I am not going to knock them or their public representatives. It's a waste of my time But I do believe that we need to actively advance a food system. That's locally owned We have to that's the future. It's not a future of Walmart Meets Monsanto, you know And so on that note other work and recent accomplishments of the Center for Food Safety is moving some Organic tax rebate. Yeah, so you want to talk a little bit about that. We have about 60 seconds 60 seconds. Yeah, I mean basically we want to offset the cost of being a certified organic farmer We know when you're certified organic people will pay a higher premium for your product And so and so this is a cost though for organic farmers to become certified organic There's a cost you have to pay annually to have that certification Yeah, and this you can write off all of those costs. So any cost associated with obtaining organic certification the State of Hawaii will give you a credit up to I think $50,000 per farmer. Is that usually more than that? What's that? The cost? Yeah, because currently there's a federal tax credit for or is that a state one as well? No, that's federal No, and now there's a state one that gives you a funding. Exactly. Okay, and in the ideas Let's put our money where our mouth is like I don't just want to advocate for the no I want to actively add capacity to the yes, and I think organic is the future of farming Right. We actually are out of time Okay