 Science is empirical, empirical truth in that you're testing and you're seeing what's empirically true. Okay. Spiritual. Ooh. Truth. Ooh. And science doesn't touch that. Perfectly honest with you. So I figured, you know, let's make a hobby out of it and get a table and see if two people want to have a conversation in the meanwhile as well. Yeah, that's cool. Got this out of Walmart really cheap. Anyway, talks are normally about anything that you want to bring up. Is there anything like really motivates you? Anything you strongly believe is true? Stuff like that. Anything interesting you saw? Something you've built your entire life around? Anything like that. I have a million things. A million things? Yeah. Any of them is fine. I'll tell you one thing, ready? Yeah. Yeah. So I was born, raised Jewish. Okay. And I got this friend who's here. He's a wonderful guy, a beautiful family. He invited me over and he did some, made a sermon. Okay. About, because he goes to temple. Oh, this sounds heavy. I don't really go to temple that much. Okay, okay. I love, you know, the cultural history. The, what do you call it, fellowship? Yeah, the fellowship and just in terms of the religion itself is just like rituals and things that bonds me to my parents and grandparents. Sure. And ancient peoples who are all gone. Sure, okay, okay. But as a human being, I feel that religion itself has kind of failed. Okay. Whoa. Just totally failed. That's a great topic. Can we talk about that for five minutes? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So my name's Ty. Okay. Like I said, I do these chats where I talk to people for five minutes about whatever they want to talk about. Religion has failed as a topic. What's your name? Rick. Rick. Rick. All right. Religion has failed. What? I thought we were already going, so I can say it again. Go for it. Sorry, my bad, my bad, my bad. No, no, no. That's cool. No, no. So anyway, the, the idea as a topic is that very interesting to me that this good friend of mine who's very into Judaism. Yeah. Right? And the Judaism is a monotheistic religion that believes that the Messiah was coming, of course, you know. And then Christianity took that same base. Yes. That core. Made 2.0. Said the Messiah did come. Right. And then, you know, Judaism has been going along kind of for the most part pretending or believing that maybe a Messiah will come saying it didn't come already. And in a crazy way, I feel that it's just failed human beings to look at things in that way. Okay. There's an end point that the Messiah will fix everything. Okay. We have to fix everything. Is it your opinion that it's the responsibility of people to like make up for, I don't know, any shortcomings they've seen in their lives, fouls that they do with other people. It's not the religion. Yeah. The religions have ended up on balance separating us. I like the theoretical part that Christianity brought in of mercy into the equation. Sure. So I don't follow Judaism anymore. Okay. I feel like more, in a way, philosophically, I like Buddhism. Buddhism. Cool. Yeah. Do you think the idea of the God claim and like you believe in this being a good person and like all the weight that comes with like certain terminologies like sin and salvation and all that stuff, just kind of muddies the water? Is that the opinion that I'm getting? Yeah. Here's the thing. I'd love to see what you're thinking. Yeah. Again, I'll tell you also what made me think of it is this friend gave a sermon on crossing the Red Sea as a story, as a myth. And he said in one of the part of his sermon that his daughter gave him this great idea that in a way it's a metaphor for growing old and that he looked at his daughter and he thought, no more a little teeny hand, big hand. Okay. And that time is over forever. So you've got to cross over this barrier to the new land. And that's a metaphor for all of us are trying to achieve. Okay. And what I thought, and this is what I'm going to throw back at you, is this idea, no more big hand holding a teeny hand. Isn't that what religion has been trying to do for us? We're the teeny hand and we imagine that there's a father holding us. Right. And I feel like no more a teeny hand being held by a big hand is really over. You're saying like all the goals that can be achieved, that religion touts as possible, can be done without religion at all? Yeah. In a sense it's this whole concept of God as a word. It really means all to me. Everybody. All things. Does it have to be that? No, I think it's a nomenclature decision. But once you say it's separate from humans, then philosophically you're saying it's not everything. You know, all the words are flawed. They're all paradoxical. All the words are paradoxical, flawed. It's a big mess. If you say then you accept the God claim. As someone came in the table and said right now, I believe in a God. Well, I say I agree with you because I believe God is all. Oh, okay. Even if he was talking about a specific agent from a holy book. Now if he's specifying it from his agent from a holy book, I would say that is not the way I see it. But I see that there is a miracle by looking in your eyes. Oh, cool. Yeah. You would say, not to put words in your mouth, I have faith in you as a person. Yeah. While you have faith in this like higher power aspect. Yeah, in a way. I'm believing in you. Yeah, I don't need to look for ghosts. There you are. Cool. I'm talking to you now. It's crazy. It's amazing. I like that. I like that. That's enough God for me. And going deep into it and going out infinitely, it's the entire universe. So it's the universe with the life force. Sure. We need to make it somebody who's going to come and be the father figure. The only reason is because we haven't grown up. What kind of benefit do you think people like that are getting? Like what's making them think that way? Because death is scary. It is. Yeah. But if death is inhaled into the all, it's not as scary. Oh. It's not as is. You know, in a way. Sure. I know our time's almost over. Can I ask you one last quick question? As far as trying to make a system to help you get to like true conclusions, like conclusions that comport with reality, would you say that your perspective is better than someone who's more dogmatic in their thinking and believes that an actual agent's controlling things, as far as coming to like a true conclusion? So if I'm honest with myself, what I mean by it's failed us is that I felt like it's created more conflict. So personally, I feel that it's not as good to believe that way, unless that way, that way that is a separate agent. Yeah. And I believe in a weird way. It's not Judeo-Christianity or Muslim or anything because once you're separate, then God is not all. Okay. I believe monotheism is just a unified whole. Cool. Cool. So once you break it up, it falls apart. Yeah. But it's a paradox. Yeah. I hear you. Yeah. It's not bad for a five-minute chat. Yeah. Hey, bro. What's your name again? I'm Tai. Tai. Nice to meet you. And like I said, just a personal hobby, just talk with whatever's on someone's mind for like five minutes. Balance ideas back and forth. Enjoy reading outside. And for the record, I'm giving you all rights to do whatever you want. Okay. Okay. But yeah, it's interesting that he wrote me this email and he was trying to say how powerful the Torah is. Sure. And when he said, no more big hand, holding a little hand. Yeah. He was talking about his daughter. But then I shot it back at him and I was like, you know what? That's the way I'm seeing it. And then he said something funny, though, by the way. Sort of like inhibiting growth, personal growth, by always thinking that there's this thing that's controlling or always more powerful or always more knowing. Yeah, especially if it's separate. Especially if it's a recreation of having a father. You know, being a father, too. You know, it's kind of an interesting, you start to realize that, you know, the kid thinks that everything is known up there, but we don't know what's going on. Right, right. We're still learning. Yeah. Do you have kids? No, I don't have kids. Well, I mean, they're imaginary, so they take care of my wife in that capacity, at least. Okay, that's cool. I'm wondering, do you think like a scientific perspective is more advanced than, say, than like one where someone says, oh, I believe this because my agent made it. No, but it's interesting. I think that it's a totally different topic. Science is empirical truth in that you're testing and you're seeing what's empirically true. Okay. Spiritual truth. Oh! And science doesn't touch that. Which is better to use to come to a true conclusion? And that is a false question. A question is, if I have something in reality and I want to know how it works and understand it. Science. Okay. And what capacity is spiritual truth useful? Spiritual truth is looking inward in a way that, in some ways you could use the scientific method if you tried and some people claimed they could, but I think that the spiritual truth, again, is words saying there's a magic beyond the empirical truth. And I use the word magic loosely, but there's things that science can't possibly know. It's only hubris to say that science is going to figure out what is the nature of life. When we reach something that we can't explain with like testing, when I say science, I mean like testing, rigorous examination, maybe people who've been studying for years, technology, all that stuff thrown in. But when we reach a point where we can't explain something to science, are we better off coming to a claim using spiritual truth than saying, well, I don't know how it works. I'll wait until I have better evidence. I think the spiritual truth, this is very... Can I reach a conclusion with spiritual truth? That's valid and testable? In a deep way, the faith that I have in a weird way is that the answer is yes, because at the core of all of it, there's something good. There's like this home goodness. How'd you figure that out? For me, it's just a meditation thing that I realize that it's just a full-on, total goodness of the earth, all the plants, all the animals, it's a personal feeling, and somehow it's kind of like... And this is where I say the Buddhism and Hinduism, just from yoga and meditation and mindfulness practices, there seems like a... that there's a natural, obvious morality at the core. Of just being human and just saying... We're living in a society with people. Some of our actions have consequences on society and other people I work with. And also with animals and plants. We don't want to hurt the whole planet. Would someone have to resort to a spiritual truth to come to a conclusion on that? Couldn't they just say, hey, I'm a person, my actions can affect other people, and we want to live in a peaceful society because that's better than living in a society that's in chaos? Let's make some rules on what we agree as valuable between us and try to strive for the best we can. I think they could overlap. The only thing that's really careful is, what is the question? Is one better? What if the answer is they're both good? I guess I mean, one's definitely useful. All that's from, like, science and truth. What's some of the achievements of spiritual truth? I would say that the basic concept of somebody like Nelson Mandela, you know, even when you go to specific people like Jesus and bringing mercy as a value to culture. So that is a great thing that is bringing it to the culture. But I think unfortunately it has to be brought in a way that says, oh, you'll go to hell or you'll go to heaven, and that's already splitting. Everything's splitting. So it's interesting. I don't know. It's a good question, but I think that a spiritual truth of morality is a reward in its own self, its own sake, and so forth. Would you prefer that people use spiritual truths as part of a decision-making process when they don't have enough scientific proof to come to a conclusion? Yeah, I think that might be something that can hold you over. I like the science and the empirical thing and thinking in terms of systems think for problems in society, but I think the spiritual truth could, you know, patch some holes where there's a known... Like a gap? Yeah, it's a stopgap. Can I throw one last? Sure. Sorry, I'm enjoying the stock, I really am. Sure. What would it take for you to be convinced that science actually does have a voice with regards to these empathetic levels that people connect with, that in fact these gaps that you're seeing do have a scientific answer to them. Is there anything that you would recognize and say, actually maybe I don't need these spiritual truths, maybe if science is testable and it's useful in a lot of capacities, it could also be used for these things as well. Is there anything that you would recognize that says, oh, maybe it's good enough in this area as well, maybe I don't need to have two different truths, maybe I can just stick with one really good one? I would say that at the core of non-spiritual scientific truth, it's very hard, if not impossible, to have a pure morality. Oh, okay. Because morality comes from something different. You know, you can twist it around and make it work, but if you're like a scientific truth and you say, the question you ask determines the outcome. How can I make things best for me? Well, the best thing for me would be to steal all the wealth and make a wall around my area and that's best for me. End of the scientific truth. Could I throw something out? If someone thought that the scientific truth was what's best for me and they found that what's actually best for them is living in a society where other people respect their rights and everyone has a right to their own property and that no one validates those rights and to live in that society and maybe make some laws to keep everyone else protected in schools and stuff like that, I would rather live in that society than one where people shelter themselves because that's way more vulnerable to attack. So let me be in this society where people are agreeing that I'll have my stuff, you have your stuff but we won't take it and we'll go to schools, we'll pay our bills, we'll pay our taxes and we'll be generally good people because that benefits me and it benefits you too. I could see that, especially in the earth but what's bothering me is just like the pinnacle of science during World War II ended up in millions murdered. Tons of science was behind a lot of the German thoughts and system and it collapsed, religion and it collapsed spiritual truth and it ended up into a grinding, you know, meat grinder, you know. But now what we have is an earth that's in danger by scientific evidence and science is preeminent which made the United States powerful and what are we doing? We're turning our back on the fact that we have to lower our CO2 output and we have to take care of the planet as a whole because we're part of the planet. So that scientific concept of the long term is not weighed in the scientific concept of the short term what's best for one group or another. So science isn't jumping to like, okay, scientifically what's best for the long term all the humans, not us, but our future generations would be to cooperate and be nice. But science is used to make a laser that will shoot very carefully right at your enemy. That's interesting. Would you say that the way that we determine like CO2 levels or like climate change or like pollution or everpopulation were those not determined scientifically through testing? The whole climate change? Like these long term issues that we're referencing were they not determined through scientific methods? They are, but I guess the thing is is that as a society and maybe that's just where we're young the United States as a leader in scientific benefit like the technology we've invented and these visions that we have is not turned into action for the earth. I mean we had eight years of it for a little while but now in one election cycle it can go away I'm so disheartened with the whole thing so I'm a little bit more hoping that spiritual can get to people because a lot of people don't get to the scientific level you have to have a lot of training and education and so it takes investment you have to be lucky enough to get off and if you didn't then maybe there's going to be different folks some people have that perspective and then the rest you've got to get. Are you saying then that the merit behind a spiritual truth isn't so much that it's true or could be used to get to a true conclusion but that it can motivate people to do actions that hopefully are based on something that's good? Yeah I think so maybe that's the way it is it's a good question because at the core I think that there's a ground of goodness and that's what I look at as a common view with a lot of spiritual truths really deep in there you have this feeling of wait a second this is freaking amazing What's really interesting is at the beginning of the conversation you mentioned that religious is filled as it seemed like people can utilize spiritual truths and twist them for bad like separation of people discrimination segregation of classes based on cast that they're coming from you believe in this God you're going to hell guilt, sorts of things like that is it really a good system to utilize spiritual truths to motivate people if that's the case, if it can be so wantonly used? we started with it's a failure and at the end we're saying that's our only hope Science is a failure too I like science actually I mean I love science I'm totally behind science but the thing is is science without spiritual truths is kind of it's kind of missing it's missing a non-verbal intuitive perspective that is important that's what I call interesting because it's almost like it turns everything into a very practical, boring universe I'm sorry you know it's like when people say that science can understand anything including like what caused life well I disagree that it can be used for anything there's some things, I agree that there's limits to science if you can't test it then it gets a little bit more difficult if I'm shown like a star through a telescope it's a dot and I can see it as a dot but science is like this is just a dot this is an entire galaxy millions of light years away photons are traveling through space at the speed of light, literally the fastest thing anything can possibly travel and that one encapsulated dot is thousands of planets thousands of stars orbiting around each other with things exploding and it's just an open book of amazing things and I guess it does take a while to appreciate it but it's way more interesting than anything I could possibly make up would you agree? I would agree with that and that's one of the reasons why it's like why do we need a ghost that looks like our dad it's already so amazing maybe what we need more is just really enthusiastic arbiters of science to maybe make it more powerful to the masses than maybe someone who's selling something that's not science that could possibly be used to divide people yeah I think that the science one thing is like Ken Wilbur you know Ken Wilbur? he's somebody you need to read Ken Wilbur has this amazing thing on the idea that it's a false thing to say science versus religion it's really good science so these are weird words science and bad and so you need a good science and good religion and then he goes on to define it philosophically okay and then the other one is Buddha's brain this guy writes called Buddha's brain Rick Hansen and he talks about spiritual wisdom and neuroscience and how they intertwine so the combination of those two guys is the pinnacle of what I think okay cause I just stole it from them anyway good to talk good talking to you Rick thanks for the conversation I really enjoyed it you'll be on NPR alright take it easy alright good chat with it Rick and time to go home cause it's cold