 Brennan you certainly have had a lot of jobs. I'm a bit of a spark plug and Human resources lady. Oh, no, it's actually it's Pam. I'm sorry Well, pan. No, my name is Pam. Okay. First of all, I needed someone Show your mouth. Show your mouth. I think we've had enough here. Shut up for once again. I need it someone Show your mouth. Show your mouth. I'm sorry. What are you just saying? You're just coming off stupid I'm coming off as stupid You're wearing tuxedos to a job that requires you to clean bathrooms. Please leave this office. We're done with this interview Do we get any sort of souvenir? Get out of my office Now I could try and explain how that clip from stepbrothers relates to this show But that would just be throwing gas on the fire. Here's a clip from my interview with andrew holichick Why there's resistance to just calling out su black mar you quoted her in the paper. Did you who she was? Oh, I know who su is so for sure. Yeah, I mean she's an interesting character So again, I'm trying to get even within that my friend I'm just trying to be a little bit more clear about where you want me to go with this Why'd you quote su black mar as an example of it? Because she has some interesting things to say What does she have that's interesting to say? Well, I mean she has she has a very Kind of vast array of contributions. I I'm not She doesn't have anything interesting to say because she thinks consciousness is an illusion and an epiphenomenon Of the brain she got that question wrong on the test. So she wasn't allowed to go to part bcd Well, you keep saying that but you got him won't go there. It's it's where do where do you want me to go? I don't know. Oh man. Come on. So really you're you're what do you think you heard both these guys? What do you think? Well, again, I'm just I'm trying to just be a little bit articulate What do I think about what because they both covered some amazing topics? So what did you think was amazing? Well, I mean again, I what I find provocative and I'm not here to judge either of them. That's just not the way I roll What I find compelling always judging everyone. I hate when people say that of course you're they're judging positively or judging negatively But we're a judge feel free. This is a a judge friendly zone What I find compelling about what charlie says is that again We live in a universe in a world Where there is plenty of room for other forms of reality Welcome to skeptico where we explore controversial science and spirituality with leading researchers thinkers and their critics I'm your host alexa caris and today we welcome andrew holichak to skeptico Andrew is the author of books like dream yoga illuminating your life through lucid dreaming and the tibetan yogis of sleep And preparing to die practical advice in spiritual wisdom from the tibetan buddhist tradition so We're definitely going to want to talk about all of that especially as it relates to the recent conversations I've been having with just had lucid dream teacher charlie moorley who you may have heard of him. Okay, so that's interesting And I think andrew's work also relates to this larger project i've been on in terms of Diving into a deep look at extended consciousness and how these different perspectives Might fit together or might not fit together. We don't want to force things that don't fit Now one of the really cool things i've found about andrew Is that he's really smart and there's no substitute for that. I mean that Seriously as you've listened to a lot of these shows. Oh, he has a Doctorate in dental studies, but before that he was a graduate level physics classes. He's really smart in that way Being a dentist isn't really his thing But because he's this cool spiritual guy and he has this dentistry thing It led him to create the global dental relief project humanitarian organization that provides dental work for People who wouldn't otherwise get it all over the world. So that's really cool does all sorts of that stuff Also has for example, just to play off on this thing. So then I run across an article He's published on an eye triple e publication, which is like really hard to do lucid virtual dreaming Intescendence and consequence of virtual lucidity during virtual threat. I mean This guy is kind of next level smart, but he also breaks things down in a way that's understandable for all of So there's a lot we can talk about including some questions about the tough stuff He published a post that I think is really important on his website called the evolution of abuse A piece that kind of dies deep into this Question that's on a lot of our minds people in spiritual community And why buddhist monks have joined the ranks of other non dual teachers and wind up looking like These pedo pope figures that we see on tv all too often. What's going on there? So i'm really looking forward to this conversation before we get started one last thing I wanted to make a special thanks out there to jp a skeptical listener who suggested andrew and actually did the first Reach out to connect to him. So I'm looking forward to this one. It's gonna be fun. Andrew Welcome to skeptical. Thanks for joining me Yeah, thanks. Alex. Thanks for the great introduction and glad to spend some time with you. Well, let's Introduce you I gave folks kind of a thumbnail sketch But please fill in who's andrew holichak Yeah, well, I mean we can take that pretty far, right? I mean raman maharishi's central spiritual investigation. Who am I? Yeah, I mean on a relative level. I'm this guy that really approaches the nature of mind and reality through an integral perspective. So I bring In gather and harness truth wherever I can get it. I don't really care where it comes from I drink the tibetan buddhist kool-aid just because there is some truth to the zen adage Chase two rabbits catch none And so while that's my Path, I've done a three-year retreat. Um, I've been sira student of that tradition for decades Three-year retreat. I mean that's Talk people through what that means. It's quite an accomplishment really Yeah, they give you the title llama when you come up. But I'm the kind of llama. There's two types of llama There's llamas teacher and guru and there's the llama that just carries crap around on that kind of llama So yeah, but thanks for asking in the in the tibetan Kind of progression of training practices tibetan buddhism several hundred years ago if if not longer They instituted a really compelling rigorous rigorous type of monastic contemplative training three-year three-month retreat where you it's like going into a meditation university Where during the course of three years really 16 hours a day Very intensive practice, but also incredibly well supported One has this precious precious opportunity With with zero distractions. I mean, you're literally locked away from the world. I you I became a monk and Shave the head and robed and the whole thing but elix what it allows one to do is In the most concentrated protected way To take a really deep dive into the center of yourself And so I had the great good fortune of engaging in I I don't know 40 50 different types of meditations these days Meditation is a catch-all phrase. It's a little bit like sport and when you say sport, there are hundreds of sports And so meditation there are hundreds of meditations. And so it was a really incredible opportunity to just dive deep into The elegance and the sophistication of one of the world's great wisdom traditions and the kind of Spiritual curricula that they've developed and I have to say it was it was hands down the most transformative thing I've ever done in my life But it was also the most painful it gave birth to my first book when I came out the power and the pain Which is all about understanding spiritual hardship. And why why is it so bloody hard? To wake up and grow up on the spiritual path. What is that all about? but for me it just it just Created such a tremendous appreciation for The skill set these kind of spiritual technologies that especially the Tibetans have come up with that allow you to meditate Literally when you're dreaming when you're sleeping in sexual activity, I mean Every conceivable possible state of mind can be explored With this armamentarium the skill set of meditative tools and for that I feel profoundly grateful But it was it cost me everything. I lost my My wife my job my house. It really was a kind of death for me But that's where really growth takes place growth doesn't take place when you're Sitting on the beach with a margarita hat bat and happy growth Takes place when you're tested and stretched so lots to say about that my friend But in short it really was a before and after experience. I mean I came out of that completely transformed and Have spent the entirety of my life since then fundamentally trying to stabilize the insights that were derived from such a Tremendous kind of spiritual incubator so many things were really born in that type of container and now the charter of my life is to extend it to Virtually every state and that's part part of what I do with the books that I write about dream yoga sleep yoga Bartol yoga, which works with death and dying So yeah in a nutshell that's the kind of what the three-year retreat is all about and Highly recommended if people want to take a deep dive into the nature of themselves. There's really no better way to do it than that I understand it can be really tough. I wonder I'm sure you had some dark nights of the soul I've heard from oh my goodness things started up to happen so quickly That I really couldn't keep track and so I just ended up keeping all these types of kind of meditative diaries and and it's it's a little bit like the The radical iconoclastic teacher famously said meditation isn't a sedative It's a laxative And so it was like I mixed my analogies here. It was like a three-year detox experience for me it was like engaging in laxat laxat laxative type practices where all this repressed stuff Just comes up and that's really That's kind of part and parcel when you sign the contract In deep spiritual practice all the repressed Unconscious elements have to come into the light of consciousness. Otherwise your awakening is not complete and this ties into what you were intimating earlier About the difference that we can get into later between waking up and growing up that the spiritual People have a lot to offer but it's not everything and so so many experiences my friend Probably one of the most compelling for me and again, I can talk kind of on the hardship end of it But one of the most compelling for me was when I was doing exhaustive daytime practices and nighttime practices and dream yoga and illusory form where You're doing this stuff 24 seven And you can really enter these quite beautiful states of mind Where you can't really tell the difference between day and night you you're you're kind of bleeding In to a kind of a quantumist democratic nature of mind in reality where you fundamentally see that everything is a display of the mind That was a monumental insight for me and one reason I'm so passionate now about What I refer to as this family of nocturnal meditations. I mean I have two more books coming out on that just this summer But in terms of the hardships. Oh lordy. I mean here's it really did feel like like a detox I mean I I had a little room It was a group retreat by design because you need others there to kind of rub up against right To throw through all your projections out against and so I had a little room and I had a little meditation box. Literally. I came to call it egos coffin I literally slept sitting up. So I was in the meditation posture 20 hours a day It may seem just insane from the outside. It's like, why would you do this? Well, what happens is it's really interesting. Alex we are we are fundamentally Addicted to movement. We're we're addicted to thought in vajrayana tantric language Thought is literally called movement of mind and we don't realize How we're junkies to movement until all movement is restricted and so When I was so confined I find myself really just having a super hard time and then asking really deep questions like why is this so hard I'm basically just sitting here doing nothing Why is it so hard and then through a long-winded kind of process of deep inquiry and investigation I fundamentally came to the realization that This retreat isn't hard and by extrapolation. You can say life isn't hard I am I'm the one that's hard And so retreat was kind of pulverizing me. It was basically Deconstructing my reifying tendencies where I make everything so bloody solid and and so It really I started approaching my room After the first couple months with a real sense of fear and anxiety And then asking like why why am I so afraid? Why is this so hard? And then he said, oh my gosh, I'm I'm I'm basically In detox here. I'm in detox from western civilization. I'm in detox from ego. I'm in detox from Everything you could even say in a certain sense the the cursed side Of the cult of scientific materialism I was just basically detoxifying from that and it was it was really challenging and I so I throw this out for people who are interested in deep spiritual practice because Certainly my experience. I can't speak for everybody Is that deep spiritual practice is not really about feeling good It's about getting real And getting real includes feeling pretty crappy and if we can't open the aperture of our awareness and embrace unwanted experiences Then we're just lost in a kind of a new age fallacy that spirituality is just a feel-good project There's some validity to what Joseph Campbell said follow your bliss But if you just follow your bliss you're going to get blissed out I find it equally valid if not more so for deep divers to follow your fear I mean, I went into three-year retreat at that time because I couldn't think of anything More frightening than having to face my mind without distraction for so long. It was terrifying to me But this maxim follow your fear has been a guiding point for me and every time I've done it It's led to the most transformative Illuminative insights because really Darkness is a code word for ignorance Fear is an effective expression of ignorance If you really want to honor it on earth ignorance, which by definition is very hard to do because it's so insidious I recommend deep divers follow your fear Fear the word interesting Alex the word etymologically Means comes from a root that means fair F-a-r-e as in toll. I mean how interesting is that? Fear is the fair That really must be paid to wake up and if we don't understand that and we can really riff on this We will basically spend the entirety of our lives and I mean the entirety In a very sophisticated avoidance strategy to stay away from this thing called fear And so if you want to go there and happy to go in that direction But I also want to come up for air and make this a bit of a conversation. So it's not just me Riffing over here. So long-winded response to a poignant question. So how did that lead to the Dream stuff, which is on one hand seems to be gaining a lot of popularity and traction You seem to be taking a much more serious deeper look at it from a wisdom tradition that extends way back Not everyone is doing that nowadays. Some people are Jumping in with the bio hack how to lose a dream and a weekend retreat not saying there's anything wrong with that either But what is how is this become one of the things that you do and maybe putting it in a better term? What are people Experiencing from your teachings that they're finding most helpful with regard to that. Yeah, well, thank you for that opportunity Alex so a number of things for me Dream has come to become a kind of code word It's very interesting in the what I call my term the nocturnal meditations Which by the way, just I controlled what those are just so people know They're actually five practices in my cartography of what I call nocturnal practice There's what's called liminal dreaming. I can define all these liminal dreaming lucid dreaming dream yoga sleep yoga and bardo yoga And these are all Nocturnal in itself is a kind of code word for subtle So basically when you're working with these nocturnal practices, you're working with really subtle dimensions of mind Specifically the exploration of dream is very interesting And if you look at the way the the Buddhists talk about this, especially Tibetans, it's quite compelling because well, first of all etymologically here But literally means the awakened one That's super interesting like what did he wake up from what did he wake up to But fundamentally in the in the Tibetan arena of dream They talked about three dreams three types of dream. That's very interesting The first is what's called the example dream or the double I love this term the double delusion That's the nighttime dream. That's the nighttime dream. The second type of dream is the primary dream Our existence on this plane is on some level illusionary And then we enter into another state where we are exactly Exactly. Yes, exactly. Exactly. So there's the double delusion the example dream And then of course all the studies of dream yoga are about using the double delusion To understand the primary delusion because working with the mind in a lucid dreaming state is really like Evan Thompson I know he interviewed him. He's a dear friend He's working with a laboratory of the mind in a really interesting refined distilled state of consciousness the dream state And so then you take those insights you extrapolate them back to so-called waking reality This this is the so-called primary dream and we can talk about what that really means And then the last dream is what's called the dream at the end of time That's the Tibetans way of referring to death, which is where bardo yoga comes in bardo is a Tibetan word It means gap transitional process. And so what's super interesting here, my friend is that Dream in my deep exploration of all these iterations of dream Dream itself is a is also a code word for manifestation of mind Everything's a dream And so by understanding and working with the dream in the nocturnal arena through lucid dreaming and dream yoga liminal dreaming you're basically Working with your mind in that capacity because maybe people don't think about this, but What is a dream made of? There's no pre-existing dreamscape that you fall into. It's just you in there. It's just your mind So dreams are a very interesting expression of mind And there's a vast array a spectrum of dreams from from pure raw kind of neurological noise discharge To what I call hyper lucid dreams of clear light where you have a dream and these are these are literally life changing events like a near-death experience where You wake up from just one of these puppies And it's a total game changer because that type of dream Literally is so vibrant so real so hyper real That when you wake up from that This appears to be the foggy dream And then you start asking yourself really interesting questions What exactly is the relationship of my mind my reality as it expresses itself in the dream state And this and according to the wisdom traditions not just to beton but most of the non dual wisdom traditions One of the things that constitute so-called enlightenment or awakening Is in fact realizing the utter Equanimous nature of all states of consciousness They're literally sleeping dreaming dying All the same literally one taste The great equanimity everything in the christian mystical tradition Everything tastes like god And so we can explore there's so much to say here That's why i'm so passionate about this because there's so much untapped natural resources in the nocturnal mind I mean think about this week We spend a third of our lives asleep 25 percent of that is in the dream state, which means if you do the math, that's about a month a year That's well over six years during the course of a lifetime. You can get a phd in less than six years Think about how much you could learn if you literally literally had six additional years of consciousness Just what I need andrew one more thing in my freaking to-do list You have done this deep deep dive into dream yoga and people really need to check that out and the other book that I think people Do apparently find really really helpful and useful and I haven't had a chance to read to it That's why I say other people is your book on dying and the dying process And there's this huge fear of death in our culture and that I think is super helpful to people too I'm gonna kind of move it in a different direction a little bit as a way of kind of getting back to some of the things You're talking about talking about so I'm listening to interviews you've done checking out your very excellent website You have some very thoughtful posts on there And I definitely encourage people to check that and I ran across one that Really caught my attention a couple of ways the evolution of abuse and Why don't we talk about that tell us a little bit about the in general what that's about and then I want to pick Out a quote from that that I think can propel us into a further conversation about this time Yeah, I just recently posted this I actually wrote it some two years ago when The next and the never-ending scandals this one with the shambhala community Came out and it was like okay here we go again The guru sage on the stage from whatever religious tradition But this always has been this has been kind of a shock for the buddhist community and for the non-real community We thought if I'm not I don't know if we they thought they were Above that or at least separate from that or immune to that and clearly they're not Yeah, it's just it just it continues to cause just such a heap of hurt and so I I finally decided I wrote this thing and I had a discussion with some publishers and and the topic was so hot We decided to table it and I decided I'm just not going to publish it and then A couple months ago. I decided what the heck I'm just going to throw it on my site just to see what happens And so just for listeners who are out there It's a I titled it the evolution of abuse because it basically Tries to articulate the kind of vectors of human psychospatial development That really have to be Recognized in order for real awakening to take place and this is where I draw heavily on on What's called integral theory Which is to me a real gift to the world that has so much explanatory power So this is ken wilber stuff. We've talked not just ken wilber. No I mean ken wilber is the is the loudest voice and he's a genius and he's a dear friend of mine But he pioneered it, right? I mean so well, he he's cutting edge But if you actually look at integral approaches, it goes back quite a bit before him He's obviously he's a massive voice and a great contributor And I rely a lot on his work, but he again, he's not the only one There many are the really skillful individuals, but the the fundamental charter Of integral theory when you really kind of spend some time with it just makes so much sense It's just a way to look it in a much more kind of systemic holistic ecological comprehensive way About the real kind of mess of the human condition and that you can't really Effectively put all your eggs in one basket And so we can talk very specifically about what integral theory is But I think for our purposes here, Alex that The most important thing for for spiritual practitioners those interested in this and trying to understand These kind of all these abuse things is that there are in fact these two different vectors of development This is the waking up growing up thing which ken got from john wellwood That comes from john wellwood. And so the waking up is kind of a state It's a kind of development or evolution of state level Consciousness the and that's what the east so to speak specializes in Working with different states of consciousness and this ties into what we're talking about earlier fundamentally attaining lucidity Again lucidity is another code word for awareness, right? A lucid dream is an aware dream So state vectors of development waking up Is basically fundamentally about extending awareness consciousness into all states somewhat what we were talking about earlier so that Eventually in fact meditators already know this studies have shown this Meditators have more lucid dreams because they're basically working with lucidity i.e awareness during the day In the mind of a meditation master as outrageous as it may seem all their dreams are lucid There's no such thing as a non lucid dream And by the way for people who may not know what a lucid dream is That's that beautiful state of consciousness when you're dreaming and a nighttime dream and something Clues you into the fact that you're dreaming so you wake up you become lucid While you're still in the dream. So you're actually conscious and unconscious at the same time So that's one state level of development. The next one of course is Attaining consciousness awareness in the deep dreamless state before we go down that path because we were talking about waking up And growing up and then you're gonna talk about western Psychological aspect of growing up stuff But I want to take it in a slightly different direction from one of the from a quote in the article One of the points you make is that if you're leaning on a lie It's only a matter of time Before you're going to fall But now let me take that in a different direction from where you were taking it because later later in the article you quote My friend former guest on this show sue blackmore who I think this is like Spiritual non-dual people. They don't see the freaking lies that they're leaning on And I think that's one things I want to bounce off of you So blackmore is leaning on this huge lie that you understand from your understanding of Scientism and materialism and sue blackmore is leaning on the consciousness is an illusion lie and she wrapped it in some kind of Buddhist friendly terms that a lot of people fall for but if you really look at what she says and if you interviewer like I do and you press around the data She's in this consciousness is an epiphenomenon of the brain. It's a brain body thing all the way 100% and that takes us in a really strange bizarre place that has to be called out for Not nothing against sue blackmore, but it's a lie that has perpetuated the materialistic science that we see Yeah, it's a belief system fundamentally. I mean material you you've thrown so many noodles against the wall here First of all, I wouldn't say um consciousness is so much an illusion as consciousness is illusory That the appearance you said it I said sue blackmore said it I understand that does say it and and Everyone in science that is the mainstream science position. So neil de grass tyson says it He says consciousness will come to understand that it's nothing and I think there's a subtle difference here that maybe you want to talk about Maybe you don't when you say consciousness is illusionary People like sue blackmore turn that around and say consciousness is an illusion And they equate the two and they couldn't be more different Yeah, exactly. It's it's a conflation due to a polysemous Misunderstanding of the nature of the term itself And so you have to direct me a little bit on my friend in terms of where you want me to run with this Because you're throwing a lot of noodles on the wall. They're really interesting One is you want me to talk a little bit about consciousness as illusion Do you want me to talk a little bit about my view of the cult of scientific materialism and how I think that's off So just so we're on the same wavelength here, maybe you can guide me towards where you want me to run with this Well, I think the cult of kind of scientific materialism and in particular how that has Worked its way in in a strange way into modern american buddhism and people like sue blackmore who do wrap herself in a kind of Buddhist cloak and this Atheistic buddhist and that's okay and you can really pursue spirituality and still believe consciousness is an illusion I think I'm just picking up on your term. I think she is leaning on What is fundamentally a lie And if I was to go back to your earlier quote that I really like Is that it's only a matter of time Before you're going to fall and I just don't I don't know why We don't call that out. Why? Why there's resistance to just calling out sue blackmore. You quoted her in the paper. Did you who she was? Oh, I know who sue is so for sure. Yeah. I mean, she's an interesting character So again, I'm trying to get even within that my friend I'm just trying to be a little bit more clear about where you want me to go with this Why'd you quote sue blackmore as an example of it because she has some interesting things to say What does she have that's interesting to say? Well, I mean she has she has a very Kind of vast array of contributions. I I'm not She doesn't have anything interesting to say because she thinks consciousness is an illusion and an epiphenomenon of the brain She got that question wrong on the test. So she wasn't allowed to go to part b c d Yeah, again, I'm not terribly excited about going after people in their views I'm more interested in in the kind of the integral approach to reality and that what basically My understanding elix is that sue is basically talking from a particular bandwidth of understanding Based on all kinds of very interesting things that I think is more interesting to talk about And so within the context of the way I approach to certain things there are aspects of her Work that are true but partial and so what I think might be more fruitful Is to talk about what might be more more encompassing for instance your intimation About the limitations of scientific materialism. I completely agree with that. It's really more a belief system and a religiosity That is that is founded on hubris where the the elegance of the scientific method I please understand. I'm a huge fan of the scientific method I'm not a fan of Reductionism materialism. I think that's science gone bad and especially as you put it That's when science flips into scientism. So I'm not anti science I'm anti materialism and I'm anti reductionism in that regard So what might might perhaps be more fruitful Is to talk about how we can take the essence of the scientific method and this is where Your conversation. I'm not sure if it went in this direction with Evan Thompson How that we can look on the exploration of mind as a type of science only in that it's empirical Again, I will go anywhere you well You keep staying that but you gotta more go there. It's it's where do where do you want me to go? Okay, so I wrote a book a few years ago and the title of the book was Why science is wrong about almost everything? premise of the book was that if you can't get consciousness, right Then you really can't get much else, right because if consciousness is fundamental then you can't measure things So i'm not caught in the soup blackmore seems like a nice person and I like her hair and she's a great Entertainer and we need Science spiritual entertainers. I'm not looking to mud at her But I think she's part of this whether you want to call it deliberate disinformation or just kind of useful idiot kind of Thing to redirect people towards this idea that all you need to do is Like things and buy things and accumulate things and she's part of that because everyone knows that Consciousness isn't an epiphenomenon of the brain. Everyone knows we are not biological robots in a meaningless universe So when people like sue blackmore perpetuate it, I think we have to Politely draw the line So let me give you a number two because there's three of these and they're all going to be just as much fun as that first one Trust me So here's another lie that I think we lean on and it comes from an interview I did with Really a terrific guy and again It's going to sound like I'm bashing him and I'm not because he does fantastic work He's at Ohio State University religious studies department But the book that he wrote was on the church of Scientology And I love the subtitle a history of a new religion And we all know that Scientology is a cult. It's not a new religion. It's a cult So when we talked about the origins of Scientology, which I don't know if you're into that kind of stuff But the origins are this guy named L. Ron Hubbard who we've heard about Is out in the desert with jack parson's who is a Number one student of allister crowley the occultist and they're performing this ritual By which they're trying to bring forth the antichrist They're trying to actually bring forth the horror Babylon So that they can have sex with her and then she will give birth to the antichrist And the antichrist will come take over the world and they'll have some control over that and wouldn't that be great Now the interesting thing is that that is dr. Urban's research finding His finding like sure we understand each other is yep, that really happened So when I push him on that and I say don't we need to understand Whether or not there is any reality to the extended reality. They were trying to tap into And he said no it really doesn't it only matters that they believe that there was a reality to it And I would suggest that this is leaning on a lie because the lie is Understanding however we were to understand it through a buddhist perspective or a christian perspective at least get it on the table That by now we understand Despite what sue blackmore says we understand that extended consciousness states Are not an illusion. They're real And that's what matters first and foremost and then secondarily it matters What you believe and how you manifest that and how you interface with it But we've completely dropped the ball in the Humanities in some of the places where the integral studies people really like to go Completely dropped the ball in terms of leaning on this lie About extended consciousness realms and suggesting and making it okay to say We don't know if they exist or not. Yes, we do know they exist Yes, so there's a lot there. So again, I'm happy to take this anywhere you want, but maybe Just help me out a little bit in terms of where you want me to run with it I'm thrilled to talk about my understanding About consciousness and why it's illusory and what's more foundational than even consciousness Because the wisdom traditions as I've come to practice and understand them Obviously speak a great deal about this and consciousness has a very limited kind of bandwidth In terms of the spectrum of mind. There's something actually more foundational So if you want me to run with that, I'm happy to do it So it's just maybe a little bit of guidance from you in terms of the baton you're handing on to me I can't really give you any more guidance than that. I think yeah pretty pretty direct So let me do this. Let me play. I can see that you're you're kind of struggling with this Let me know and I'm just you're just being a little bit opaque Again, I couldn't I couldn't be more I couldn't be more direct when I tell you what's the point What's the point you're trying to make to me that you want me to respond to I'll summon up. I'll summon up for you again. Great Extended consciousness realms matter And they're real and our inability to understand that from a serious academic intellectual Scientific forget it. They're still stuck on consciousness is an illusion But the fact that we can't even begin to approach extended consciousness realms and that dr. Urban Feels like it's okay to say it only matters what they believe Therefore side stepping the whole extended consciousness realm thing Is is problematic. I mean, it's it's very problematic Totally I couldn't well that part I 100% agree with you because then what happens is this kind of myopia this kind of centrism That only reality can be disclosed through certain types of consciousness experiences And so I could not agree more with you on that track That what I think you're talking about extended consciousness and extended realms In my vocabulary would in fact be this type of archetype of awareness or lucidity Where in fact we can indeed open the aperture of our mind and our heart And become available and aware of dimensions That are utterly as Huxley and and and other scholars have talked about Completely part of this beautiful vast mystery of the cosmos and so That part I completely agree with you and then what happens with belief systems with scientism With even the academic Need is we we just so you think it was okay that these guys were trying to summon the antichrist and I'm not I'm not saying that's okay. Not at all. I'm simply saying I'm What is it? Is it not okay? Is it bad? I mean do are we in a position to make any kind of value judgment on that? I I framed it in a way where you would say no, I'm not saying it's good. Maybe it is good Maybe, you know do it thou wilt. I mean, we're all trying to exercise power and bring I don't think I mean you're talking about a type of radical relativism that kind of the extreme of postmodernism I I don't think that's particularly very helpful because Fundamentally reality is not an infinite sliding scale. If you think it is you're called a psychotic So I I think what I'm trying to derive from what you're throwing my direction to respond to Is that no not everything is just okay. There have to be kind of metrics for reality And what those metrics actually are that's a monumental question. Who's who's to decide upon that? I think that's one of the great Kind of issues contributions and contestations from all these different type of traditions that go after it So I'm I'm definitely not saying that's or okay What I am saying is it's kind of the near enemy of this integral approach integral theory integral thinking Is about again opening realizing? Honorating honoring and incorporating truth from all these different traditions, but at a certain point Here's a very interesting maxim It's really really important to have an open mind But if your mind is too open your brains will fall out And so somewhere in there has to be a middle way that we want to maintain honor and incorporate different dimensions Realize which is always very difficult because by definition these are blind spots The limitations of our own ways of looking at the world increasing our tolerance receptivity and accommodation So that then from that is born humility for ourselves In a sense of tolerance and receptivity and acknowledgement of others. Are you okay with calling Scientology occult? Yeah, I it's absolutely occult as far as I can tell. I mean I'm not a deep scholar of that tradition because it doesn't take very long to realize they're like pretty far off base But yeah, I would say it's absolutely occult of which there So isn't it isn't in a problem that we can't call it occult in religious studies? You won't find a religious studies Professor or look at where integral studies are going in academia and find one of those people to stand up and say What we all know it's occult. Yeah, they can't do that Well, I again, that's kind of a carp large statement statement. I think some may but honestly, I think again And I'm not I'm not that facile and in kind of cross-cultural studies when it comes to things like Scientology But I think most people honestly and you probably know more about this than me Just probably don't spend a lot of time on something that's just so overtly Overtly kind of cultish and off the mark. At least that's what I do It doesn't take long to scratch the surface and realize there's just some confusion here But again, I'm quoting and quoting an Ohio State University professor respected professor and it's not like his position is unique Let me play You're running out of patience. I can tell I'm not running out of patience I'm just trying to figure out where you where you're running with all this. I'm definitely not running out of patience Let me play some clips for you from my interview with Charlie Moorley and then with Tom Zinser and I might pause during these clips Straight off the bat I don't believe in any objectively existing external evil. I don't even believe in evil as a concept. I believe in Traumatized people acting out unintegrated trauma which manifests as seeming human evil So from a Buddhist point of view the hell realms are as real as this waking life But also as unreal as this waking life and then I get way out of my depth If the client believes that they have a spirit within them And if you do like an exorcism and you really go for it and you enter into that What I was entering into the psychosis of the client then the exorcism could work, right? It doesn't necessarily mean though that there was an externally existing objective entity there in the first place though Okay, so that was charlie moorley and he is a Super excellent guy. I love talking to him. Oh great guy. He's a lucid dream teacher in the uk And we're having this conversation and he's going down this kind of line which I don't totally agree with but then I played for him a clip that i'm going to now play for you Andrew and it's from clinical psychologist tom zinzer. Tom zinzer has spent Oh 15 years working with Mainly traumatized people who have experienced Disassociation in one form or another. I think you'll catch on to what his what his practice has been like Okay, my work is basically identifying those things within a person that blocks the light from them So the protocol developed for the ego stages make the contact communicate with them Make it safe for them to receive this light love energy Once they receive it 99% say whippy. I love this. I don't want to be without it And then they will move through the sharing and release of what happened to them for spirit attachment outside entities It's a different protocol They don't belong with the person they need to leave and in the worst cases Protocols designed to get to a point where they could be removed It's kind of sound like i'm kind of well not contradicting myself But also the buddhist view is that this is not the only realm of existence There are like six realms of existence Which can actually be all contacted through the human realm if how to do it and these include like hell beings heaven realms um hungry ghost realms I wanted to say about entities because I realized I gave you the Jungian view on entities I gave you the buddhist view on entities. I didn't actually give you my personal view on entities Which is like yeah, man Anyone who's had like a dmt experience or like moving into kind of psilocybin therapy or ayahuasca or something These are these are not internally generated Experiences like when people are all having the same experience of mother ayahuasca coming over them And she appears in the same way and often is offering the same guidance. You're thinking this is existing, dude So I kind of laid a lot on you there, but for people who are listening just so you understand Charlie is going down this line. He's an awesome guy, but he has to kind of hold to that Sue blackmore material is that's all in the brain kind of stuff And that's what he's saying at the beginning when you can manifest it It's just your own psychosis and all the rest that then we talk about tom zinzer and tom zinzer says I've worked with hundreds of people and I Spirit possession I don't know how else to talk about it with just associated ego states within these individuals Seemed to be a reality and from a Jungian perspective You treat it like that and it works like that and it's it follows this protocol And then you go back to charlie and he goes Well, yeah, I guess there is that part of it too that the buddhist do recognize that there are entities that do inhabit consciousness And maybe it can fold into tom's idea of these separated Subpersonalities that separate so a lot to cover here And I just don't want to gloss it all over and integrate it and talk about how dream yoga Answers this question. I don't think it does I don't know. What's the question? What's the question? Oh, man. Come on So really you're you're what do you think you you you've heard all you heard both these guys. What do you think? Well, again, I'm just I'm trying to just be a little bit articulate What do I think about what because they both covered some amazing topics? So what did you think was amazing? Well, I mean again, I what I find provocative and I'm not here to judge either of them That's just not the way I roll What I find compelling always judging everyone I hate when people say that of course you're they're judging positively or judging negatively, but we're a judge Feel free. This is a a judge friendly zone What I find compelling about what charlie says is that again We live in a universe in a world Where there is plenty of room for other forms of reality So what I find compelling with his statement in particular Is I really like what he said that these dimensions are just as real or unreal as this That to me is the crux of it. Alex where basically the the charter to base to derefy So look at our reality in a more humble contextual way To realize that fundamentally we don't know everything. We don't have kind of ontological rights of supremacy that this is the only reality I think that's that's what I derive from what charlie was saying Is that once we really open again? That's the charter as I've come to understand it and experience it as we open our minds. We open our hearts We're opening ourselves to two of different dimensions of reality That to me is the important point that there isn't just one particular reified playing as the scientists as The materialists tend to put forth my view of things. Alex is that reality is plastic I think that's what i'm deriving from when i'm hearing here this kind of ontological plasticity That really the world responds in kind To the to the kind of apparatus of perception belief systems and the like that we bring to it and so this may be tying into some of the other things that you were talking about that It's like how did what's the maxim go? We don't see things the way they are We see things the way we are And so that is a really that's a really quite important statement because again It brings about a sense of humility that my view is just that it's just my view Which is why i'm always Reluctant to criticize the views of others unless they're ragingly often there also is this interface With this reality. So what I appreciate about tom zinzer who again is a clinical psychologist, right? He's a people helper in grand rapids, michigan. He's retired now But for years and years and the interesting thing about tom's story is he's got a phd texanum Trained in a mental hospital. He's all the credentials, right? And people are coming to him and he's frustrated because he's not able to help people people have trauma and he Sometimes helped them but not always right when he starts having an encounter with a spirit guide Jared Jared starts guiding him in terms of how to Help these people with spirit entities that are interfering with their life now We can take your approach and say well gee. I don't know if there's any reality to that It's what we make of it or we can go back to the you urban It doesn't matter if that's true. It matters what they believe But at the same time I listen to you and you are a practical guy in terms of the interface with reality So you say sleep on your right side keep one nostril closed do this meditation You're you're more likely to enter elusive dream state So you're not that that's very practical this world kind of stuff So in that same way tom zinzer is saying from a practical real world standpoint You could be encountering These kind of spirit entities in your day-to-day life and they could be interfering with your life I don't want to gloss that over. I don't want to accept that. It's true I'm not saying it is true But we don't even we don't have the means to even deal with it. It seems like Deal with it in which way just deal with it philosophically or Ontologically how about practically how about practically should we follow tom's protocol should we follow your protocol? Should we should we sleep on our right side with one nostril closed? Well, I mean you're kind of all over the map here my friend if I might say I think we follow what what kind of I think we follow what the practicality does it not elix doesn't the practicality derive From our relationship to mind in reality. I guess that's where I'm coming down on So if it's if it's perhaps helpful For someone to relate to a deity or to an entity and the like Why not use that as a segue as a skillful means to develop some communication with that individual And then work with them at that provisional level. It may not be the ultimate reality But again, who are we to say of course? We are to say we are to make Value judgments believe judgments about what reality is of course. We do that all the time This is uh, this is the good part of science. This is the scientific method part that you said you appreciate We do things we test things we see if they work if they're repeatable if they're falsifiable We do have a certain attachment to reality. Yes for sure I mean, that's because yeah, if we didn't have that then The whole ego or structure would fall apart and we'd be in deep doo-doo. So So, yeah, I mean, I'm trying to find the the bandwidths of Kind of harmony and resonance between what I'm trying to extract from what you're saying and what perhaps I can say There could be of some benefit or contribution And so again, I'm just trying to articulate to my ability. Maybe it's my lack of understanding of what you're saying What do you when you put those things forward to me? Where does that land with you? Where does it challenge you? I mean, what do you come down on that doesn't settle or does settle with you? Well To answer that question is try and be as direct as I can I look at the forces in culture that have kind of boxed us into where we would understand the answer to that question And I'm one and I see scientific materialism and I see our friend People with the pay the punching bag for this show has been sue blackmore. She's not a bad person. She's just represented with that So my kids I told you my daughter's see you you're there in boulder What she encounters in the humanities department and in the school of science in general Is you are a biological robot in a meaningless universe? That is what is drilled into her and so when we look at sue blackmore You know, you think she's going to come with some kind of wisdom tradition of great buddhist thought But no, she's going to trick you into that and that she's going to come back and tell you in fact You are a biological robot in meaningless universe. So don't think about it too much And then if we look at the other side where we might go and mainstream Perspective for an understanding of that deeper part We'd look at religion and then we're we're leaning on another lie Well, really just good guys over there those catholics just a few bad apples Instead of what we really all know that it's institutionalized sexual abuse Rape of kids and it comes out. Oh, yeah, some of them. I think we have to be some of them or that way I wouldn't just say the institutionalized. I would say at this point Any thinking person would have to acknowledge that at the very least the burden of proof Is on the catholic church at the highest level to prove beyond any doubt that it is not an Institutionally supported and understood Practice that's been enshrined for many years. That's just that's just the evidence. That's where the evidence leads We can't keep saying. Oh, it's just a few bad apples But again, if those are the two forces you've had if you have science on one hand saying you're biological robot I mean in this universe and on the other hand you have this really corrupted Religious kind of understanding. I think people are looking for something Like which way to go here things. So that's that's my read of it Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, what's isn't it true? Alex that the human condition Is really just very sticky very messy and so I think what we are trying to do people like you and I Is make sense of a very complex situation. And so I do it with a particular apparatus of biases and Value judgments and skill sets you do it with your own But I keep trying to come back to something very positive about just Looking at all these different manifestations of the human condition whether it's it's a sue blackmore whether it's a charlie morally whether it In really appreciating the historicity Appreciating what it is that brings them to that particular view of reality How we can understand the limitations of our own views. I think that perhaps may be the most important point That we are all really limited and this is what we never finished that I wanted just paying back for just a quick second When we are talking about those two vectors of human development in my article on the evolution of abuse One of the most important vectors that comes into play right here is the vector of the growing up Where we have these structures of consciousness the developmental levels That by definition are fundamental archetypal blind spots. We don't see that we don't see And so I do want to throw that back into the mix because I do think this is really important that in order in a certain way It's circumambulating everything we're talking about That we have these these complex vectors of psycho Spiritual human development and if we don't understand those two vectors alex That's when we get into trouble whether it's the christians and the catholics and the buddhas that basically every human If we don't realize that we have this these two These are the grossest what are called orienting generalizations One vector of psychological structural development What john wellwood talked about is growing up the other vector of the state level of waking up To me what I'd like to to drive home with your teeth or with your audience is that understanding the complexity And really paying homage and allegiance to the power of these two vectors of human development Are really important because otherwise then our knowledge our relationship to ourselves into the into the world is really limited And then we're we're really lost Just like mark twain said it's not what you don't know that gets you in trouble It's what you do know that just ain't so And so to me it's like what are in fact these archetypal blind spots. What if that ain't so Andrew It's like when people get spinning off on the integral stuff and the wake up grow up stuff And I just offered you an alternative perspective an alternative view and that's not to Shout down yours. I want to put yours on the table But I want you also to have mine on the table. Yeah, totally Well, no, it's not totally because I don't get that vibe and I don't get that vibe not just from you I don't get that vibe from so many people in the non-dual community and they put Alex let me ask you this what what what is the approach when you say that What you're putting on the table Tell me more about articulate specifically. What is that that you're referring to? So when I played the clip from tom zinzer He's talking about a protocol because one of the things I appreciate about tom's work is it's clinical work He's worked with hundreds of patients. He's tested it out He's seen when it works when it doesn't work. He's tried to test it try and refine it He has a different model than wake up grow up. That's not the model The model is that your ego states can separate and that separation Can lead to kind of a reduction in your immune system from being Interfered with by spirit entities Okay, so again, and this isn't my I'm not on board with this I just I'm just drawing out the fact that this is not consistent with what you're saying This is not wake up grow up. It's something different And what I'm really the whole point of this project that I've been on is just to show how we're totally how we've accepted The ineptitude that the intellectuals have for dealing with this for someone to say god dang that's right I got I have to figure out whether Andrew's right or whether Alex is right So when you're Hugh urban at Ohio State, you got to say stop the presses stop the research Just stop all the bullshit about it only matters what people believe I have to get to some kind of bedrock of what is the nature of this extended consciousness realm Not just talk about Feelings and beliefs and the rest of that We wouldn't we may never know I mean But you seem to be interested in science when you say sleep on your right side and close your nostril Which I'm gonna try tonight. I'm not against that. I'm biohacking all the time. So I'm an ice bass I'm doing yoga I'm try everything as biohack because I want to get to some of these states and as you say in your book Experience does kind of hook us in but I think we have a real blind spot when it comes to Really taking a real bite into these extended consciousness realms and trying to figure out How we might come to a pre scientific but at least Somewhat scientific understanding of what's going on without just leaning on some wisdom traditions And oh it must be that because that's what the Buddha said. Well, no, it's not true my friend I mean again, I hope you understand this that even the Buddha himself said Buddhism is not a belief system. Buddhism is an anti belief system. It's it's an it's an unbelief system It's better better than most right. Yes Yeah, and exactly and this is in the very deepest sense Buddhism is empirical I'm not going to say it's scientific because I agree with Evan Thompson's very lucid Attack on the exceptionalism and the kind of elitism of thinking that Buddhism is somehow a science of mind I think there's a lot of traction to what he says But the the great thing about these wisdom traditions and it's again why I am an allegiance with them Is because of their empirical nature. They're they're not based on beliefs and conjecture They're based on here's a certain say you could say here's a hypothesis. There's this thing called the enlightened state Here's a hypothesis. There's this thing called lucid dream lucid sleep And then here's a way to actually bring this into your own experience And so that empirical approach the ability to test it to find out For yourself whether this speaks to you or not is really what's important And yeah, I mean, I guess that's where I rest and as one reason I take refuge in those approaches because they're they don't really espouse belief they espouse criticality and in fact The buddha himself said as with Socrates Questions are more important than answers the questions are what's really important how you Send the mind in either directions They're conducive to the inquiry into reality or not and even heisenberg Very famously said what we discover in science is not reality itself But reality as it's revealed by our methods of investigation And so therefore to me again, it's like it's how we ask the questions Where we direct our intentions Where we direct our our efforts and then reality in a certain sense is cooperative reality will disclose itself Based on the kind of investigatory lens that we bring to it And so I think that's what's what's somewhat important here and that people have different lenses Some are more in resonance with reality than others Some send them barking up the wrong tree versus trying to find the right one And so to me, it's like honoring that understanding that acknowledging the kind of messiness of the whole thing and then Realize we're all more or less trying to do the best within the limitations of what we have So, I mean somewhere in there are the kind of a handful of noodles that I throw against the wall Fair enough Excellent really our guest again has been Andrew Holichak and he's been super kind and generous with his time and to withstand and put up with my badgering questions There's a couple of books you're going to want to check out and I wanted to tell us more about That and he some of the upcoming books he has in the works. It sounds like but dream yoga Preparing to die are two of them. Andrew. What else is coming up for you and thank you Thank you, Alex for that's always appreciated when I can set up my lemonade stand for just a second Yeah, I have two books coming out this the summer one is Kind of a more kind of prequel entry-level book called the lucid dreaming workbook It's kind of a more on ramp to the practice of lucid dreaming altogether And then on the complete other end of the extreme is a very deep dive This is the second book in a trilogy. I'm writing For my publisher sounds true. This one's called dreams of light The profound daytime practice of lucid dreaming and this is a deep exploration of the daytime practice Of lucid dreaming dream yoga Which is called the practice of illusory form And the science that supports it the meditations that help you reveal it and the reason I wrote this book Alex is Because as you probably know lucid dreaming promises a great deal Promises a lot, but it's hard to deliver on these promises. There's lucidity is not such an easy thing And so this book was written as a way To give people a different set of skill practices They allow one to realize the same kind of dimensions of insight that lucid dreaming and dream yoga bring about using daytime methods And so it's again this larger charter Of using these great gifts from the east and the west Is basically a way to perhaps invite a development of the human condition How can we actually be more awake be more lucid and therefore be of benefit to ourselves and others? So thanks for the opportunity to plug those. I'm always grateful when people provide that form So I'm really excited about both books But the dreams of light book is one I'm really quite excited about because it's a it's a pretty deep dive. So Thanks for that Well, that's awesome. Andrew and again, it's Very encouraging for me when people can't have these kind of sometimes uncomfortable, but Too infrequently done kind of conversation. So thanks for hanging in with me and all that All right, I appreciate it Thanks to Andrew for joining me today on skeptical and a special thanks to jp a skeptical listener who Help me set up this interview Jp, I hope we got what we wanted this one. It may be different than what we thought So with any rate the one question it up from this interview is the haters ball kind of question And that is it's nice to be nice But is it good to be nice? I mean, this is kind of a deep skeptical question But maybe it's kind of pretentious divin think we can answer any of these questions But if we can I kind of play off the idea that Donald Hoffman throughout a few episodes ago and that is If we are going to speak Let's try and be as precise as possible So for Hoffman, that's mathematics and that has some nice aspects in terms of being precise But also has some limitations as well, but maybe precise in this case means Sometimes not being so nice I guess there's a question in there somewhere. Let me know your thoughts join me over on the skeptical forum Or just drop me a note. Let me know what you think Have some good stuff coming up. Stay with me for all of that until next time. Take care. Bye for now