 Hello, everyone, and welcome to the 1 to 2 p.m. session of the 2017 Open Simulator Community Conference. As a reminder to our in-world and web audience, you can view the full conference schedule at conference.opensimulator.org and tweet your questions or comments, too, at opensimcc with the hashtag OSCC17. This session, we are happy to introduce an exciting panel session called Open Simulator e-commerce panel. We have great speakers today on our panel, Ilan Tokner, Chris Colosi, Melanie Milland, Mike Glory, Lisa Laxton, and Kayakar Magic. And let me take just a couple of minutes to introduce all of them. Chris Colosi is the founder and CEO of Globit, and Chris is sitting closest to me there. Globit is a digital currency web service providing an in-app, micropayments, and user-to-user transactions for digital commerce. His vision for a single currency across VR began taking shape in 2016 with the launch and adoption of the Open Sim Globit money module beta. Chris is focused on the digital currency and VR commerce originated when he joined Linden Lab in 2007. There, he acquired and managed Second Life's web marketplace for virtual goods. In 2010, he restored stability to the Linden Dollar and then assumed oversight of the Lindex, a $100 million a year Linden Dollar to U.S. Dollar exchange, as well as the entire $500 million a year ecosystem, serving as the effective Federal Reserve Chair of Second Life. Chris co-founded Windward Mark Interactive, a video game company best known for its wind-light graphics technology, which was acquired by Linden Lab. Christopher has a BA in computer science from Harvard University. And sitting next to Chris is Ilan Tokner. Ilan is the co-founder and CEO of Kightly, the biggest commercial provider of Open Sim regions and the creator of Kightly Market, which we all know now, the leading marketplace serving the hyper grid metaverse. Ilan formally held key positions in several startups, including as CEO at ID Choice and director of infrastructure development at Omnisky. Ilan has an MBA from Tel Aviv University and a BSC in computer science from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. And moving away from me next to Ilan is Mike Glory. Mike is the CEO of Galactic Systems, Inc., creator of the grid phone. Mike has a long record in virtual reality as one of the top developers in Second Life over a decade ago and has been a vocal advocate for individual liberty in reality and the metaverse for even longer. He now teaches scripting and blender in Kightly and is an active merchant on the Kightly Marketplace. Next to Mike is Lisa Laxton. Lisa is the R&D visionary and CEO of the new Open Simulator Community Focused Infinite Metaverse Alliance, or IMA. She is also president of Laxton Consulting, LLC, with experience providing various virtual world technology solutions for education, research, business and defense clients. And next to Lisa on the couch farthest away from me is Kayaker Magic. After four decades of writing code in the real world, Kayaker Magic has been scripting in virtual world since 2008. He started by extending his love of water sports, especially kayaking, surprise there, sailing and surfing into Second Life and then Open Simulator. But he has expanded his interest into many different fields of scripting here. And next to Kayaker is Melanie Miland. As an Open Simulator core developer, Melanie has been one of the most active contributors to virtual world software in general, and Open Simulator in particular. Melanie has been involved in a number of virtual world projects and has created her own spin of the Open Simulator software. Okay, all well, let's begin this panel session. Thank you everyone for joining us. And what I would like to do is just start back closest to me and kind of just good on the lines so we all get to know what you're doing. And just tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do and how, you know, how it's involved in Open Simulator. And Chris, we'll start with you. Hi, thank you very much. And thanks everyone for being here. You covered it pretty well in my intro. I've been in VR and eCommerce for quite some time at Second Life. And then later on getting involved with creating Globit, my current company, and which I've launched for Open Sim. The way we relate to Open Sim is we brought cross grid, hyper grid enabled currency to whatever grids would like it. And with choice, something that people can enable by region by sim or across their whole grid. We created a drop in plug in to make it as simple as possible. And we've had over 35 different worlds adopt us in some portion of their grid on Open Simulator. And so for someone who uses Globit, their users can have as many accounts or can have as many avatars on as many worlds hooked up to their one Globit account. That's kind of one currency that works incredibly well with all of the in world eCommerce transactions. And, you know, we just want to look to expand that with an Open Sim to get out to whoever wants us and expand eventually perhaps into other virtual reality spaces as well. So uniting all of VR across one currency just to make it as simple as possible for merchants and for users. A couple of things that we've done recently. We released a patch for viewers, which is going to make it simpler for hyper grid users to buy land and for some functionality to work as people hyper grid teleport or go region to region. And we've been working with Fred of Outworlds lately to try to get enabling of Globit into his Outworlds installer as well so that all of the worlds using Outworlds will have a nice gooey interface. So our focus lately have just been things like that to make it easy to adopt us by more and more worlds. I'll look forward to answering questions from you and from the audience, but I'll, I know we have a large panel. So it's a blast to be up here with so many people who contributed so much to Open Sim. Thank you. Thank you so much, Chris. Okay, yes, I think we'll just go ahead and move on down our panel panelists. And if you have questions, you can go ahead and just put them into chat or you can I am them to me. I also have a list of my own. So we'll have plenty to talk about today. So Ilan, we'll come to you next. Tell us about Kitely. Hi, I'm Laan Tashner. I've been involved in Virtual Worlds since the early 2000s. And we started Kitely in 2008. We started a published beta in 2011 with a quickly picked up steam, basically providing Virtual Worlds on demand and Kitely currently hosts close to 16,000 different worlds, each one being between one and 16 regions in size. Later on in 2014, we launched Kitely Market with the goal of being basically like the Amazon of the metaverse. And Kitely Market has been serving more than 240 Open Sim grids to date. Our goal for Kitely Market includes moving forward from not just delivering orders to Open Sim base grids to once basically put any open architecture, including high fidelity in the foreseeable future. And basically what we see as important is being able to have a long term relationship connecting merchants and people using Virtual Worlds across the metaverse from a single online store and being able to develop this relationship as people move between technologies as additional platforms evolve. And people take on a type of, let's call it, evolving permissions or licensing system from the one that exists now into something that is, I think, more compatible with how work at large, world at large works. So we intend to take a big role in helping develop that aspect and integrate that into Kitely Market in the next, I'd say somewhere in 2018, you should see that coming to market. Lately, we rolled out new features relating to Kitely Market that enable people with the lost items to close grids to regain access to those items with the help of merchants. So the merchant has the ability to decide whether or not they want to help the person regain content that was lost to a grid that is closed down. And if so, using very simple interface that can give people access back to that content, either to particular people from that closed grid or everyone of their customers who bought from that closed grid. Okay. That's very interesting. All right. And next to Elon again is Mike Laurie and tell us a little bit about the grid phone and what that's all about. Hi. Well, as people know, I used to be very active in Second Life. And then I had, let's say, irreconcilable differences with Lin and Lab. And so I was out of virtual worlds for a few years and dealing with some legal issues with them. And those finally settled. And I had wanted to create a whole new virtual reality platform that would not have the flaws that I saw in Second Life. And when I was in Second Life, I had helped capitalize the first OpenSim central grid, which did their IPO on my stock exchange. And but I wasn't quite sure of how well OpenSim was going to do in getting people to transfer over from Second Life. And so I was working on this other platform. And then we saw a lot of money going into Oculus and with Google and other projects. And we saw we couldn't compete there. So we took our time off. I wrote a novel. And when I was looking for a place to create cover art for my novel, I went into Kitely, but I wanted to talk to friends in Second Life. And I couldn't. So I looked at the chat bridge scripts that people have been using for years. And those were very clunky. And so we created this platform, this program to enable us to have a much more robust communications between OpenSim and Second Life locations and persons. And it was purely selfish at that point. But I realized there's there are ways that both commercial potential as well as ways that we can use it to build OpenSim and create more of an open metaverse. And so we've been expanding on that in with a sort of a virtual smartphone business model for avatar to avatar communications and commerce. And not just between Second Life and OpenSim, but we're working on expanding into high fidelity and Unity 3D and Unreal and whatever other platforms we can go into that allow either user created content or third party mods. And so we want to enable people to talk to any other avatar any place. And it'll be backed up by our galactic coin blockchain that will allow people to register their identity on the chain. So you can associate accounts with it for different platforms. And so therefore the the grids and the game gods, if they don't like you, they can't erase your identity anymore. So you're able to take back control of your virtual identity. Wow, that's very interesting. Okay. And moving away from me again. Next to Mike is Lisa Laxton. And Lisa, tell us a little bit about yourself and the infinite metaverse alliance. Thank you. First, I want to say hello to everyone. I feel really privileged to be up here on this panel. Thank you for the invite. For those who don't know me, I am a systems engineer by profession. And I look at things from that perspective, I think about standards. I think about different types of users and meeting the needs of the larger community, and not just any one portion of the community. So from an e-commerce perspective, I think we need to make sure that we're looking at cryptocurrency security standards, that we are looking at cryptocurrency certification, otherwise known as C4. But then we also need to realize that the majority of the open simulator community is not going to want to engage in monetary e-commerce, even though they might want to engage in a virtual e-commerce. And this is perfectly fine. I think there's a balance that needs to be there to make sure we meet the needs of the community. I'm interested on the communication aspect with Mike, because when you look at the needs of education and government and some of the private sector, their concern is security. So if we're addressing security with an e-commerce notion for open STEM, then we're also meeting those needs. And we're meeting the needs of the creators and the individual users who want to make sure we have a more secure ecosystem. And the economy is only one part of that ecosystem. Thank you. Thank you, Lisa. Very interesting. Okay. And next to Lisa, we have again Kayaker Magic. And Kayaker, tell us a little bit about yourself. Well, I got interested in virtual worlds by reading the Terms of Service of Second Life back in 2008. And I wouldn't be surprised to hear that not very many people did that. And somewhere in the middle of it, it said that if you write scripts that produce self-replicating objects, you should make sure you keep them under control so they don't mess up our servers. And I was astounded that you mean it's possible to write self-replicating objects in Second Life, and second of all, you let us get away with it. And that got me interested in scripting in Second Life. And I started a store there and eventually came to like the web market there. I've had stores in several open sim grids. And then I finally settled on the Kytley market as my favorite place to get products out there to the market. And I heard at one point that I was one of Elon's top merchants, and that's nice to hear. Surrounded by all of these lettered people, it occurs to me I never mentioned in my bio that I have a degree in computer science from UC Berkeley, where I met some people, Ed Catmull, when he was starting the company that eventually became Pixar. And so I heard him give talks on fundamental computer algorithms. And one of the things I learned directly from Ed Catmull was how to generate fractals in the computer environment. And I've used what I learned way back then to build terraforming tools, which is my latest product on the Kytley market that can fill an 8x8 var region with interesting looking terrain in just two minutes. And so that's my favorite way to build terrain these days. Wow, I didn't know you could do that. That's great. Okay, thank you. And Melanie, tell us a bit about yourself and what you're doing. Well, the one thing that I would say seeing this illustrious round of people here who all have touched on something that I've had my hands in at one point and another is that I guess it's the bane of my life that I do things too soon. If I had had the Kytley idea of conserving resources, Avination would have used that. If I had globits, then Avination might still exist. I've worked for Legend City online, then I've done a currency thing for a central grid. It's funny, isn't it? How things can go around. And Kayaka has also been on my grid. Avination was still up and doing waves. Now, I see he's turned away from water and he's turned into land. I mean, while I have sort of moved on in so far that I'm now working at the marriage of virtual worlds with virtual reality in the PLM for large companies, a manufacturing sector, meaning engineers using virtual worlds, using VR headsets, using tablets, using PCs to discuss and present data in a virtual world setting. So no longer social virtual grids, which is why I've become a bit invisible, but it's definitely a very exciting thing to do. As far as commerce is concerned, I'm sitting on this panel, I think maybe by virtue of having made a lot of money with OpenSim. So, sorry about that. Okay, very interesting. Okay, we're starting to get some questions from the audience. I'm going to ask one more kind of general set of questions before we dig into some of the details of some of what each of you are doing. And I know that some of you are doing presentations throughout the afternoon. And so I'm sure you'll actually be getting into those details as well. But one of the questions that I would just like you to address is one of what we call the major concerns. And I don't mean major concerns only in the idea of, say, content piracy, although that is a concern, but for merchants and or for customers regarding a payment or delivery system and how that works, say, across OpenSimulator and what obstacles it might be causing or what concerns people bring to you so that you really need to keep your eyes on, so to speak. And I'll kind of just throw that open there and see if anybody wants to jump on that. I found that in the time while I was doing social virtual worlds, there were always the considerations of convenience versus security, meaning that most people were spending any kind of currency in a virtual world, wanted to do that with the same ease as clicking buy and lend labs second life. But at the same time, they wanted to be their money, to be secure even from being accessed and taken away by great gods, great owners, whatever you want to call them. So that is one of the major concerns in the money module interface was, unfortunately, at that time, not designed to accommodate any sort of verification mechanism. I know you're all still right to that design, which is something that Terra was a virus and I cooked up. So yeah, that was the thing, they wanted the convenience of the right click. Very interesting. Any other thoughts on that? Yeah. Well, I mean, you have a familiarity of the user interface and that user experience that you have to take in mind when you're designing a system. But I think we're probably going to move away from the methods that were used on the money module and more into smart contract type thing. And I know that Mike and Chris can both speak to that a little better. The only comment that I would make is that we need to think about one really key word and that's interoperability. And that was where you can have your programmers, your developers have an expectation of how they need their systems to be designed to be able to interface through a secure API with the various monetary system. I'd like to follow up if I may. This is Ilan? Yeah, this is Ilan, sorry. Yeah, I think that the way we see it, I haven't had quite a lot of experience with delivering content to hundreds of different grids from different versions of OpenSim sometimes with proprietary changes made to asset servers and so forth is that you need to look at both the technical side of how you actually get content to avatars on different systems. And that is mostly an engineering challenge. But I'd call it the easier part. It's quite a lot of things to handle, but it's a clear path. And the other aspect I think is how you look at content in virtual worlds and the context of how digital content is handled and the internet at large, where you have different licenses such as Creative Commons and BSD and GPL and proprietary licenses and so forth and licenses from third party marketplace to risk would and so forth and how those types of licenses and their expectations of how content is handled, how you merge all those things together into a unified system that is easy for people to handle without having to be lawyers and having to see whether A can go with B, whether there's a non-modified object can be joined with a forced share like modified object and that obviously can create problems on the legal side without people knowing which might not be so much of a concern for people who are just working at home, but if people are doing this at work environments, organizations and so forth, those become real concerns because they create liabilities for their businesses or in their schools or what have you. And one of the things we're currently very much looking at is how we turn, how we basically call it normalize those different types of licenses and turn them into something that can be easily handled both in-world and in a marketplace such as Kite Market. And I think that type of system is the way forward. There are different types of approaches, whether you go with blockchain or you go with centralized cloud-based or people running things certificate some home or there's multiple ways of handling the technical back end of how you register ownership or how you transfer data. But the bigger challenge is how you actually get all the different licenses and the different expectations that both merchants and end users, buyers, consumers, just people have for what they can do with their content. And I think a high fidelity is taking an interesting approach. They're not the one we're taking, but basically having provenance of how each item can only have a single copy in existence, which is a valid legal copy. And if you make additional ones, it will erase the previous ones. That's one way to go. I think it's not the ideal one, but it's a different path than the ones that exist in Second Life and OpenSim. They're doing it on blockchain where we'll be taking a different approach. But I think looking at how all these things connect, how different licenses, whether you expect to be able to only have a single copy of an item you buy as you would in the real world, whether you expect to be able to make as many copies as you like for, let's say, copy audience in Second Life and OpenSim, those different expectations basically in campus, the type of license or permissions that both the merchant and buyer have to agree to in order for an ecosystem that's built on legitimate codes to evolve. And I think looking forward to a world where virtual reality and augmented reality encompass people who are not today in virtual worlds, they become basically ubiquitous, we really have to consider how those types of licenses and permissions go together with the way content is created in other systems outside of virtual worlds. I'll just chime in really quickly and just echo a little bit of what Melanie said. This is Chris, by the way. And I think the biggest thing that I got when building our system is that ease of use versus safety and trust. And everyone is comfortable in a different area. So building one product that satisfies everyone's desires when they sit at different points in that spectrum is challenging. And if we were to build it from scratch, the money module interface is by no means, I think what anyone would build now knowing how folks use it. At Globit when we started, we could have gone a complete safety route and said, hey, we're going to build a HUD or look to get viewers to adopt some code so that the end user and their viewer really controls all transactions and it doesn't matter where you are. One of your early competitors used a web browser pop up within the viewer. Very annoying. Yeah, exactly. And so the problem there is you get full security, but you wouldn't be able to tie into all of the default GUI mechanisms that people use to buy. You'd have to completely change how people purchase and teach them a new mechanism. So we went a route where we said we're going to use the money module and we'll look at how to make that secure with our system. And so I think in most cases people for in-world things have gone that way. And I would say one, you need to trust your provider. But two, just like on the web where you need to ask yourself, do I trust the website I'm on? Do you trust the grid that you're on? And be aware of where you're going. Yes, in the poor developer panel, we actually came on the point. I brought it to that point, but some of us also did that the viewer is the one thing that's holding back our development right now and that's also the case of money in which actually the viewer should have an extension that allows to store certificates to cryptographically and transparently sign transactions. And so what I would say is I think we'll take steps forward. It's very hard in the system with so many users and that you have multiple viewers and multiple people working on the code to take gigantic leaps. I think it'll happen a step at a time. To that point, we went a year basically out in the wild where land transactions and we talked about that buy currency window that comes up. I won't go into the details, but they're very hard to make work because of the, frankly, inheriting the way that Lindenlab really controlled those rather than thinking about OpenSim and multiple grids. And we finally got around to saying, is there a way we can make this better and releasing a patch for the viewer to where a money module can actually control those flows a little bit more? So I think things like that can happen where we take small steps at a time. It is a challenge. We get asked things like that all the time and the route that we've taken is to try to control the money as much as possible and leave the other mechanisms up as for other specialists. So one thing we get asked is, hey, is the content exportable if I buy it using Globits? And we tell folks, that is entirely up to the grid you're on or the region you're on. Did they make the content exportable or not? We don't hijack that. We are a money module. We control the commerce. So it's a complex system. I would a lot of people who use it different ways. And I think that with any monetary system, the balance of ease of use versus safety is the challenge. Well, certainly, I agree with points that both Melanie and Chris have made, but you touched on a word that really made me want to comment, and that's trust. When you talk about trust from just a normal internet user perspective, we've all learned the hard way, in some cases, that you don't buy from certain websites because you don't trust them to handle your money. And if you want to have a trust factor already built in by design, you've got to go with the security standards that are in place. You've got to look at public blockchain versus private blockchain. You look at the private blockchain Ethereum, for example, there is an alliance already of the largest corporations and banking partners in the world are backing the private blockchain evolution. So we might want to look at that and say, why are they doing that? What is their advantage? And how does this tie in with security standards so that we can meet the needs of not just the general user community, but also meet the needs of the private sector and business and government and education to meet their IT policy requirements? Well, you seem to be a big fan of cryptocurrencies, but what about fiat currencies? They still exist. Yes, they will. And I think that the debt-based currencies that we have out there today, they're not going to go away. There's going to be a transition period. And I think that's why you see the International Monetary Fund and JP Morgan Chase are getting involved in the Ethereum alliance. Well, yes, but I'm also seeing things like, for instance, the permission to trade Bitcoin futures, which are going to make Bitcoin, for instance, much less secure by being able to actually leverage a bear market. It means that fluctuations in the value of Bitcoin are going to be more common. And this is also going to happen to other cryptocurrencies. I did look into Ethereum, but at the time I did mention I do things too soon. At the time I did, the Go client wasn't stable yet. Even with Bitcoin, that's a public blockchain, so it is entirely different than Ethereum. If I can comment on the futures trading issue, that was an issue that I've been looking into with a number of other colleagues. I think that the establishment thinks they can take control of Bitcoin by utilizing futures trading and bear markets to take it over with naked shorting strategies, but they really don't seem to comprehend how the prices and value of Bitcoin is much more driven by hashing power and solving difficulty. They don't understand that this is not a currency you can print. It's a proof-of-work currency. Absolutely. If I could chime in as well, I was at speaking yesterday at CryptoCon in Oakland and the moderator asked, how many people in the audience think that Bitcoin is going to double in price in the next six months? How many think it's going to get cut in half? And it was pretty much 50-50, and then someone said, why does it have to be either or? And pretty much the entire audience thought it'll do both. And you look at Bitcoin, that is one of the things that is a problem for it being used as commerce. And it doesn't mean that cryptocurrencies can't find a way. I think that private versus public is important. Bitcoin is expensive per transaction. It takes a long time per transaction. That does not facilitate what users want in virtual reality, which is they want a transaction which closes almost instantly. They want to receive what they bought within a couple of seconds. They want their charge to go through and know it's complete. And they want to be able to buy something for 20 cents. It can't cost 80 cents, which is what I'm hearing. Yes, and that is one of the things where you can say that Bitcoin is only going to be what the creators of Bitcoin originally envisioned, mainly a commodity rather than a currency. That is a crypto commodity. Now, that doesn't mean you can't solve those problems, but you need to understand how users need to use it. And so the question becomes, can a limited or a private or a semi-private blockchain cryptocurrency be fast, be incredibly inexpensive and still be secure? And that's something we're exploring in global, but we are a fiat currency. We started like that because when we started and I looked at crypto and at the time only Bitcoin was around, I said plenty of folks believe this is the future, but I could spot back then that the costs of Bitcoin were going to grow exponentially per transaction if it was successful. The delays were going to be there. So we'll see how technology and innovation evolves. I don't know if anyone up here is aware of a blockchain-based currency that really has fully solved those. I know High Fidelity has written a blog post where they thought they had solved some of those problems. And I'll say I was in their office for two years telling them about those problems, where two years ago they thought Bitcoin was going to work. So I'm interested to see, but two years ago they would have written a post I think that was, we're going to use Bitcoin and this is going to work. So I'm skeptical. The Bitcoin Cash fork actually is working in the direction of solving those problems. Well, you think just making larger blocks is going to solve things? It's going to hit processing power limits and it's going to hit bandwidth limits. If I may just jump in, the entire proof of work is and I'm sorry to wear an environmentalist hat here, is a crime against nature. It's wasting so much energy. It's more than most countries in the world just to run the blockchain. Most people who actually mine at home, who have money and have been able to buy some ant miners or such, they use them for conservatory heating. It's most mining is done on a dedicated hardware running in places where energy is relatively cheap. That's what I said, ant miners. Okay. I'm just, excuse me, everybody, I'm going to just kind of jump in here a little bit and move us perhaps. This is a very interesting topic and I think we could probably talk about it for a couple of hours and it will very likely at some point in the future be more immediate perhaps for what we're doing. But what I'd like to do is to just sort of move a little bit to a different topic and back to the actual e-commerce of Open Simulator. I have a question actually for Kayaker that I myself am interested in understanding a little bit better because we hear, you know, as a person who has worked in Second Life and has worked in Open Simulator and a very, what I call myself a micro creator on all of these, I'm still in those systems and I do understand them a little bit and correct me if I'm wrong, Kayaker, that it's a little bit different selling scripts themselves as it is actually selling objects and in that does it make a difference or does it affect it that those objects may or may not be scripted? Well, I've noticed that in the closed grids like Second Life as a scripter I feel more secure because the scripts run on the servers and the viewers never get to see copies of them. But when I sell something on the Kitely Market the script and the object have to get moved over to the other system and it's possible say somebody on OS Grid who runs their own server can then go into God mode and steal the script and I'm comfortable with this. I figure the guy who does that and gives copies away to his friends is not going to be one of my regular customers and his friends aren't going to be my regular customers and so I hope I provide a better service than the thieves can by supplying support and upgrades and coming up with new stuff all the time. Okay, so someone just having your script unless they know what you know in a way won't like, you know, I've seen scripts and of course I'm not a scripter and I have no idea what to do with them but that could get actually very complex. Well, a script is a program. It's a program. A script is a program. It's a program is a script. So anybody who knows programming is going to be able to read the script and even if they don't know this particular scripting language well because of descriptive naming they are going to be able to understand how things have been done and they're going to be able to create their own spin to modify that or just to straight sell it on. It's a real and existing danger. In Havination we had a public key crypto system that allowed people to upload scripts in an encrypted AST format that we ourselves could not decode and run it from external servers because some of the people that we had dealings with that, for instance, what was their name again, Excite. They were very, very much concerned about their scripts becoming a public domain being stored whenever in an OpenSim grid and as far as I recall we are actually the only OpenSim grid that ever had a presence of that particular scripting company and so yes security options are possible but they are rather difficult. Generally you can say that in an open grid a script is at risk. Okay and then Melanie, well I have you, we have a question from Larisa I think it is, Firehawk that says if I wanted to see what your work, what would I look for on YouTube? Is there a way that someone could see what you're working on? I do not do videos. Okay, thank you. Hopefully that answered that question. Okay, so I have a question to the video of Snapchat culture at all. And that is itself, and not to get off topic but that is itself a whole set of or type of e-commerce, I guess. And I would, well we've got some time left but I want to kind of throw out another question to all of you and as an artist and an indie creator I consider myself, as I said, micro potatoes. I am a micro creator. I build my beautiful widgets whatever I build using Blender and GIMP and other open source tools because I don't have the resources behind me to use all the wonderful really expensive tools. Do you, what do you think about this idea and you may have already thought about it and you may already be doing it. I finish my beautiful widget in Blender. I've got it textured, I've put a shader on it whatever I've done. The idea that I would, that I have in my mind is that I finish my widget and I click a couple of buttons and I upload it to my store, my metaverse store let's say, multi metaversal multi-platform store out of Blender. Do you see something like that as a possibility? I'll say I don't, I just say in the near future or something near future for me to be able to do that where I'm not competing with huge you know major commercial outlets so that I can you know get my work scene. There's a difficulty in creating stuff directly out of Blender because it's very much different nature of materials in Blender as opposed to materials in Open Simulator. So usually you have to decompose your model, upload the components that you can, and then recreate it in world using the in world tools in order to be compatible. If I may, I'd want to chime in on this because that's part of Kylie Markets, the hesitated goals. Yeah, this is some of what Melanie said is correct on the technical side. You want to be able to raise your item in world on a platform in any case that you want to shift to just to verify that it works and that you expect because of differences between how Blender and other 3D software create content and how they look in world in different systems. That said, Kylie Markets' goal and I think we are working on is for you to be able to upload once and eventually, and this is yours, eventually be able to upload once and sell to multiple platforms at the same time. We already have upload once and sell to multiple grids on the same platform and sometime down the line, we'll be able to add once and sell to multiple platforms, for example Open Sim and Hype Ideality. But that's again, there are technical challenges and they are, as a creator, you probably want to check in either case, even if you list them to make sure that things look exactly as you expect them to look and behave exactly as you expect them to. Just very, very quickly, let me chime on that. To tie what Elon and Melanie said, if we use the viewer as the arbiter of this information by tying, if IMA is definitely very interested in a new viewer development and if we tie external tools to the viewer and we tie e-commerce to the viewer, then that becomes the arbiter of that information. So we need to secure it and we need to do it based on security standards. Well, unfortunately, there have been two efforts of viewer development away from Second Life's viewer that I have been involved in. Both of them died from lack of funding. And that's something we're addressing right off the bat. Okay. Any other thoughts on this? Any different kind of vision about that maybe from the grid phone or globe bits? I think it's not actually literally tied to a particular grid. Well, yeah, it's interesting. You see all these different developments and it's, from my perspective, it always seemed to me like everyone's trying to go in different directions and it's increasing factionalism and division and boundaries between different groups whereas the real power of the internet and of having an open metaverse is by having as many people connected together as possible under Metcalfe's law. It's the number of interconnections between people in a network that builds its value, not just the number. And so all of these models of walled gardens like Second Life has or just code barriers between grids in the hypergrid and so forth or closed grids entirely, you know, kind of, they're contrary to the whole notion that the internet was based on of where value is based upon building large networks rather than keeping a small group of people trapped in a closed market. There was a time for that. There was a time for closed grids for walled gardens. In my opinion, in my experience, that time has passed and the option of monetizing a grid from a region rental alone has gone from 100% to tending close to zero. But the one thing that's now currently holding us back is LibOpen metaverse. And I'm saying that because LibOpen metaverse cements and writes into stone a standard of communication between a grid server and a viewer, that viewer being the Second Life viewer. And as long as we can't get away from the Second Life viewer, Second Life viewer is what we're going to have all the many options that would be possible, all the vistas of exploration that are there, the possibility of actually creating a 3D internet. It's just not going to exist while we are tied up to the viewer and the protocol, mainly the protocol that Linton Labs designed. Now the ones that I've worked on actually made an active effort to break away from that protocol. Like one of them was based on the Unreal Engine. And that project still exists. As I said, it died on lack of funding. It didn't die because of technical impossibility. So somebody needs to spare head and effort to fund the project to give us a truly open, truly free viewer using a protocol that's more suited to modern times than the outdated Linton Labs protocol. For God's sake, it's like 15 years old. Okay. Let me ask you, I think Lisa, you made an interesting comment that there are remain legitimate reasons for closed grids. And that a couple of those use cases come to my mind too. But I wonder how the WebGL or web-based entry into virtual world, some of the web-based entry, the viewers that we were talking about would affect that. Don't even think about it. It's not remotely ready. There isn't anything that is able to display something that is as difficult to display as user-generated content with dynamically calculated lighting in WebGL at this point. Google made their stab at it and defolded it because it just didn't scale. And nothing else will scale because browsers are just too limited. Let's talk again when CPUs are four times as fast and GPUs 40 times. Okay. Lisa, we do have to kind of wrap things up. But I did give Lisa a chance to respond if you want to. Yeah. Well, there's no need. I don't want to take any more time. That would get into Mike's presentation area. But we definitely are looking at all of these concerns and we want to have some input from everyone on these lessons learned. Okay. Okay. Well, thank you to our entire panel. Thank you, Chris Colossi, Mike Glory, Kayakar Magic, Melanie Mellonde, and Lisa Lachston, and Elin Tochner. And thank you, Tochner. Sorry for a wonderful panel discussion, very lively. As a reminder to our audience, you can see what's coming up on the next conference schedule at conference.open simulator.org. Following this session, the next session will begin at 2 p.m. in this keynote region and is on the grid phone launch of public beta grid phone service, providing secure avatar to avatar communications between platforms. Also, we encourage you to visit the OSCC 17 poster expo in the OSCC Expo 3 region to find accompanying information on presentations and explore the hypergrid tour resources in OSCC Expo 2 region along with sponsor and crowd funder booths located throughout all of the OSCC Expo regions. Thank you again to our panelists and thank you to our audience. Bye now.