 The Institute has, as you know, a constant overview of issues with regard to justice, home affairs, criminal activity, etc. And we're very, very pleased today to have Detective Chief Superintendent Pat Clavin with us. And he's going to explain in a way, if we don't know already, why Ireland has focused on civil asset seizure. He's going to talk a little bit about the history of the setting up of the criminal assets bureau and the future direction of the criminal assets bureau. And frankly, since we set it up in 1996, it has been an example for countries all over the world. And we were joking with Pat that sometimes a celebrity in places like Norway and Malta is on their television because those institutions are sending people over to discuss the criminal assets bureau and what it does. And the amazing thing is that it isn't in existence in an awful lot of countries, you think it would be now. There's a whole issue of the asset profiler network. And also he's going to talk a little bit about some trends in the kind of penetration by criminals into the motor trade. We think criminals as drugs and thefts and cryptocurrencies, but there's a big issue with regard to the motor trade. And things go on around our country that most of us don't know and maybe we're better off not knowing what's going on around you. But I was saying to somebody that we probably all have stood drinking a glass of wine or a cup of tea with people who are serious criminals and we don't know it because they dress like us, they talk like us. They may have been to the same schools as us. And the job of people like Pat Lavin and the people working in the criminal assets bureau is to identify those people and take them out of society or take their assets out of society because with those assets they can further increase more criminal activity and also seduce in a way people who are in need of something and find that maybe the way to go the path to take is some kind of criminal activity and we have to try and protect people as well from getting into that. So Pat, we're looking forward to hearing what you have to say. Pat follows in an illustrious path of people who have headed up the criminal assets bureau. Focno Murphy, where's Focno? Oh there you are, sorry, I was looking down further. Focno Murphy headed up the first one. I was very pleased and honoured to have been in government when we instituted the criminal assets bureau on the back of some really serious murders. Veronica Gehran and the murder in Limerick of your colleague whose name is Jerry McCabe. So their legacy lives on in the criminal assets bureau. Pat, we look forward to hearing from you and afterwards there will be time for questions. Thank you very much indeed. Thanks very much chair and it would be remiss of me not to acknowledge your own support and your future vision at the time in 1996. We've often said that while we have slightly modified the criminal assets bureau we haven't changed it very much over the years because actually the model was got really good at the beginning. So to acknowledge yourself I also want to acknowledge the presence of Focno Murphy, the first chief bureau officer and later guard commissioner for his constant support. With me are Kevin McMill, the fifth bureau legal officer who follows on from people like Barry Galvin and others who are good public servants over the years and detective superintendent Jerry Egan. Ben Ryan is here from the department just to make sure that I don't stray too far away from the pat. I'm going to try to be as open as I can but I won't say anything in relation to a matter that's before the courts or that will get me or anybody else into trouble so let people just understand that. The first thing about the criminal asset bureau is that it's wonderful that its title actually tells you everything about it that you need to know. It's a bureau or body that only targets criminals and whose sole job it is to take their assets. It takes their assets in a number of different ways to process a crime, to taxes and to recoveries of social welfare payments. But you know there are many bodies that do the type of work we do but you won't see what they do in their title and actually it's something that we would hold on to for dear life. So I suppose just to kind of set it in context I'm talking about denying and depriving. We go after local targets, we go after national targets, we go after international targets. We're not really discerning about who we take on but lots of people think oh you only go after the big stuff, you only go after the big drug dealers, you don't go outside the M50, you wouldn't be interested in our local drug dealer. We're interested in anybody who fits our criteria. I suppose I was reminded by what the chair mentioned there about Norway and I was particularly minded by a female lawyer who spoke on the Norwegian television after their visit. I suppose her line was isn't everything grand the way it is. You know we don't really need it, the criminal system works quite well, we actually don't need this at all. So I'll ask the question then is every crime reporter and clearly it's not. Is every crime detected? Unfortunately not. Is there a suspect located for every crime? Definitely not. Are there always charges brought? No unfortunately. Is there always a conviction even when you do bring charges and again unfortunately not. And then I have some positive questions. Are drug dealers operating through underlings? Most definitely. There are some really big drug dealers who have no convictions for drugs offences because they don't dirty their own hands, they operate through others. And are proceeds of crime converted into cash or property? Definitely. Like somebody who's stealing jewellery or other valuables will fence that off and will lodge the money into either a bank or invested in property or otherwise. So there is a need for another complementary way of law enforcement. I am not against the criminal law enforcement, I'm all for it and I welcome people being made amenable and I think that in certain circumstances people should go to prison. What we do is complementary to criminal law enforcement, it's not either or, it's complementary with. So I suppose we then look at what do we target? Do we target the man or do we target the asset? I think that's a man called John Gotti. So in criminal law enforcement we tend to look at the person in our line of work. We go after the ting, we go after the asset rather than the person and we use a process of civil law enforcement. So I suppose to give some context to it and there are people in this room who obviously have a better historical knowledge than I have. But we did have the troubles in Northern Ireland and that did bring about lots of guns in the country. You know, when I was young, I think every Friday there was a bank robbery somewhere, you don't really hear that as much anymore. There were ATM robberies, there were lots of things like that so guns became more commonplace in Ireland. And then we had the heroin epidemic and the start of organised crime groups as such probably from the 1980s onwards. And I think the legislators were up there early. There was a piece of legislation brought in overnight called the Offences Against the State Amendment Act 1985, specifically in relation to funds that were in the bank account in Navern County Mead. The case is called Clancy. And so in a sense that was a precursor for what was to come in later processes of crime act. But along the way we were moving towards looking at assets through the Criminal Justice Act 1984 and I see Michael Brady here from the DPP's office. We had post-conviction asset seizure and like ourselves the standard of proof is civil in relation to the assets. Then moving it forward we had the awful murder of Veronica Geirin and Jerry McCabe in 1996. Cabe was established on an ad hoc basis I think July, August 1996 and on a statutory voting by the 15th of October 1996. Now I don't think we could imagine that happening in Parliament these days unless there was something really really big because it's difficult to get legislation passed with agreement. So the proceeds of crime act 1996 is the legislation for non-conviction based asset seizure in Ireland and we operate on the civil standard of proof which is the balance of probabilities. The criminal assets bureau act 1996 established Cabe as a statutory body and that was the primary piece of legislation, the sharp piece of legislation that hasn't had to be amended very much over the years. So I give some credit to a criminal with personality, Martin Cahill the general most definitely needs to get him mentioned because he's the embodiment of why you needed criminal assets bureau in Ireland. He didn't work other than as a robber, he drew the doll, he drew social welfare, he had a number of houses, his domestic arrangements were colourful and complex and he was a notorious criminal and he had kidnapped and shot an official who dared to withdraw his social welfare payments who later became the Secretary General of the Department of Justice and essentially he went around with a baletava, covered his face and he was having a right good laugh at this society and at this country and there's a Today Tonight programme from I think about 1988 wherein he's interviewed by Brendan O'Brien on RTE which you can Google and you can find on YouTube and he makes a joke out of the law in Ireland. Happily in 2005 his trophy properties were seized by the criminal assets bureau and sold and I was standing in the fact that he'd been murdered by the IRA in Dublin in 1994. So the proceeds of crime is our main piece of legislation in terms of asset recovery. There has been a new Section 1A inserted in the summer of 2016 and I would say that 2016 was a turning point as well in that you had the Regency murder and that would have been, I suppose, a wake-up call to lots of us. So you now have an administrative power of seizure. So if somebody is driving, for example, a fancy SUV, a bureau officer can seize that SUV for 24 hours. IAS chief bureau officer can administratively authorise his detention for a further 21 days and then we move into Section 2, which is our first order, which is a temporary order which has got ex parte in the High Court. After we get our ex parte order, the threshold of value you would expect to go up over the years. It started off at £10,000 which was rounded to €13,000. That was reduced in 2016 to €5,000 and we take that that we are meant to go after low value assets and we have done so. The lowest asset value we ever went for was in July this year which was €5,010. At the same time we probably went for the highest single asset value in the case which was over £50 million in Bitcoin. So we go for small, we go for big and that's what we do. After we get our Section 2 order, the other side is made aware of the order and we then move into a full hearing and if we get the order under Section 3 it lasts for seven years unless there's a consent order agreed under Section 4A. Quite a few of them actually do consent to an order because they want to get cab out of their hair. And then Section 4, when that happens, the asset is vested in the state and if it's a house, we sell the house and the money is remitted to central funds and that's essentially how we go about our business. So what are the elements that we would have in a typical case of ours? So we introduce evidence into the High Court in affidavits and we cover investigations into the criminal origins of the assets. We have to satisfy the court that this actual asset represents in whole or in part the proceeds of crime. We also have to satisfy the court that this person is engaged in criminal conduct. Now criminal conduct can be any form of criminal conduct that results in the acquisition or generation of wealth is criminal conduct from our point of view. We would get our revenue people to do an analysis of the person's declared income because nowadays we will have lots of people who actually will have a tax return done. They will have maybe a minimal earnings declared to in a sense legitimise themselves. So we have to say this is their declared income. The target or spouse or family may have some benefits that are coming in. We have to tell the court about those so our social welfare colleagues will swear an affidavit to that effect. We have accounting people and we have analysts and they would go through and do an analysis of the flows of income that are coming in and that are going out and we are focused on what's the unexplained part of what they have. We have technical people that do ICT examinations so they can look at phones, they can look at computers, whatever else. We have our own bureau staff that can do that and then my own affidavit is called the chief's belief. I must swear a belief. My belief is evidence in court. I can't say it's a great day, that's a belief. Tomorrow is going to be a good day. It has to be something that isn't a bold belief or a bare belief, it has to be supported by the evidence of everybody else and that's open to challenge and open to cross-examination and the judge must be satisfied that my belief is reasonably held and if we get that we're on our way and we've turned the tables towards the other side. The structure of CAB is a small body and we put, for lots of reasons, the Department of Justice and Equality, they pay for us, they provide our bureau staff and we work very closely with them and they provide our new policies, our new laws and we surround them with people from the guardish economy, people from the revenue commissioners and the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection so we move into a building, we have a single building and we all live happily ever after that in our structure but I went to some little bit more detail on that. So I'm going to focus on two pieces of legislation. One is our objectives and the way I cover objectives is I say it's about CAB. So we spend most of our time doing C which is conducting investigations quietly where nobody is aware of it and we're doing preparatory work and we're trying to get evidence of A which is we want to identify assets that are from criminal conduct. So that's A and then finally we want to get to B which is the taking of appropriate action under law to deprive or deny those persons of the assets. So we go CAB and that's how we go about our work. That's our objective is to conduct investigations, identify assets to take them. So our statutory functions are threefold. The first one is we're required to free seas and confiscate the proceeds of crime which is done through the Proceeds of Crime Act that I've just described. The second one is we are required by law to tax the proceeds of crime. So we have revenue bureau officers who work with us and on our behalf they will tax the proceeds of crime. They're required by law to do that. They will find it difficult to kind of understand this whole idea of taxing the proceeds of crime but the law requires us to do that and totally our social welfare bureau officers are required to investigate and determine social welfare claims by any person engaged in criminal conduct and strangely the one person who can direct CAB to do something is not the Minister for Justice, not the guard commissioner but it's the Minister for Social Welfare. The Minister for Social Welfare can direct, where the Minister believes a social welfare officer may be subject to threats or other form of intimidation, Minister can, as a matter of mandatory direction, require us to take on that target. It's called Section 51D of the Act. We get a small number of cases every year where the Minister makes such certificates. So that's an unusual feature. So the CAB model, people talk about the Ryanair model, the Erlingus model, the CAB model is worth looking at. Right from the start it was a multi-agency and multi-disciplinary body and we wouldn't change the basic model if we were starting all over again or going into the future. We think that the model was got fairly right in the first place. So the team room where people sit in an open plan office so you'll have guards, you'll have revenue taxes, revenue customs, social welfare, they sit around and they're allocated cases and they work together in the team. So you don't have a taxes room, you don't have a garter room, you don't have a social welfare room. The team room was very much at the heart of what was decided. We have a closed computer system with the utmost secrecy. We don't have any mobile devices. Our closed computer is in one location and one location only and that has remained the way. We have a single office in a single location which we think is hugely important. We don't have satellite offices around the country. We have, for protection reasons and for other reasons, it's very important to us that all of us are together and that we're able to look out for each other together. But we're able to draw upon the support of the larger agencies in particular on Guard of Chicana. We're able to draw upon the revenue, be it taxes, be it customs and we're able to draw on our social welfare colleagues. So it's not that we're operating in isolation. If we're doing a big job, we will always have people from other agencies helping us out and that's one of the reasons why, as a body, we've been able to remain small. But we're also supported by professionals. The accountants are very important for us because we need professional accountants to be able to satisfy the court about the flows of funds. I'm not an accountant, but we can get accountants that can, I suppose, translate what to me looks like gibberish into something that's meaningful and that I can understand and ultimately a judge in the court can understand. And we have analysts. We have probably some of the top digital people that I know of working anywhere that are really good at looking at devices that are really good at searches and other activities. And I have to acknowledge that for a small body, we have really good legal cover. We have a pure legal officer. Kevin fulfills that function. But we also have an office of the Chiefsates Lister's Office which is co-located with ourselves and that has been there from the start. We think that that office needs to grow in accordance with our own growth because it's a very important part of what we do. And looking at an ad here, I think it was a contractor. I'm from an agricultural background and the agricultural contractor would advertise his wares and say, no job too big and no job too small and distance no object. So I'm saying no target is too big and no target is too small and distance is no object. So anywhere in the country or anywhere beyond, we are prepared to consider it once it meets our criteria. So our structure then looks a little bit on the complex side. So I'm the Chief Bureau Officer. Kevin is the Bureau Legal Officer. We put the Chiefsates Lister's Office in dots because they are co-located with us. They are not our staff. They I think ultimately are attached to the Department of Antishock. But CAB could not operate without them being co-located with ourselves. So we have garnish iconna, taxes and customs, social welfare. The Bureau Analysis Unit includes the Accountants and the Digital Specialists and Analysts. All our administration people are civil servants from the Department of Justice and Equality. There are no guardie involved in the administration in CAB. They're never were. That has been the way from day one and we have our own small IT unit. Down at the bottom we have two changes. IAO is called the Intelligence and Assessment Office. I call it the Goods Inwards Department. So typically somebody who is an asset profiler will send in somebody that they think that neighbour is driving too well and he or she never worked. So our Intelligence and Assessment Office look at that and see is this likely to be a good target for ourselves. And we have a high enough threshold. It's hard enough to get taken on by the Criminal Assets Bureau. But once you get taken on, it's very hard to get off the wagon. Once CAB are after you, they say it's hard enough to get off the wagon. So if they get through the Intelligence Assessment Office we have what's called an admissions board and the admissions board make a decision to admit them as a formal target. If we reject them, we don't reject them as such. We file them because we may get more information at a later date that says that we can take them on so all won't be lost by the fact that at this stage we don't see them as a viable target. And we then allocate them to the six investigation teams that are made up of Guardi, Taxes and Customs and Social Welfare. And then at the very end the AMO means the Asset Management Office. The management of assets is a very important function for us. So for example we have to sell houses, we have to pay local property taxes in houses, we have to cut the grass, we have to pay the electricity. There are lots of things that you have to do when you have assets and we have quite a few assets of various kinds. From race horse in one instance, to houses, to Bitcoin, lots of money, lots of bank accounts. We control assets in a number of different ways and we decided in the last two years to set up a dedicated office to manage outdoor assets and to realise the best value for the taxpayer where the money ultimately goes. So our numbers, roughly half of us are Guardi and roughly the other half are not Guardi. So there are 47 currently, our authorised numbers, 47 members of Guardi Icona. 21 from the Department of Justice and Equality which includes Kevin, the accountants, our admin people and our IT support. We have 17 from Revenue, Taxes and Customs and we have six from Social Welfare which is now called Employment Affairs and Social Protection. So examples of criminal conduct, I said that we would look at any form of criminal conduct that generates wealth so most of our cases revolve around drug trafficking at the back of it. But we have also other areas like brotl keeping, burglary, robbery, theft and fraud. That's a big issue for the common people of Ireland. Lots of people are bothered about machinery thefts, their farms have been broken into, their houses have been broken into. Corruption and extortion is something that has always been there. I'm celebrating cases down the years in terms of corruption in planning and other areas and more recently we've had cases that relate directly to extortion by criminals of people like builders. Fuel laundering and fuel smogling is a big issue. We have one particular case that revolves around an international male fraud and cases like that we're always willing to take on. Lots of motor trade offences like what's called a missing trader. The books are designed to look as if all the cards have come from somebody but when you go to find that trader that trader doesn't exist at all. The books have been cooked to design to make it look that way and there are also BAT and VRT scams that are within the motor trade. We had one case called phantom secure technology which involved somebody in North America providing secure technology to the South American drugs cartels but opened an office in Dublin and had a bank account here and we have revenue offences as a potential form of criminal conduct. So the types of assets that we have come across would include cash as our favourite. It's the easiest one to deal with and in fact if it's in a bank account all the better. But we've had to deal with cryptocurrency, Bitcoin and Ethereum are two that we've had to deal with. We were ahead of the game in the announcement in dealing with those. Money in accounts, high value watches, jewellery and designer bags. They're a big issue. There was a time that maybe on a search we would have walked away from watches and bags and whatever else but it's amazing the amount of wealth that can be pumped into designer goods like that. Houses and land are always a feature overseas property and high value department store cards is another area where we've come across somebody who is on social welfare and had a platinum gold card for a well-known department store and apparently it was like the old days when we had our Lingus cards you have to spend a certain amount over the year or you get downgraded from your platinum card and this was a person who was claiming social welfare from the taxpayer. So we have focused very much on asset profile or training where we train mostly Gardie around the country. To extend our remit beyond our modest size we train mostly Gardie but we train them from the other departments as well and from any other law enforcement that we can engage with. And so we encourage divisions and units to submit profiles and criminals who may have assets. We ask them to be our eyes and ears and we conduct two asset profile training courses a year we do about 60 at a time and we have brought people in from other agencies and indeed some of our UK colleagues have asked us to sit in as observers both from Northern Ireland and from, for example, HMRC in the UK. Profilers are trained to be the eyes and ears of CAB in the local division. To spot likely targets, submit a profile report conduct local enquiries and very importantly for us if they know the person's background they can swear what we call the criminal conduct affidavit. So, you know, I won't know personally every criminal that's in Dunigol or in West Cork. So the local asset profiler fulfills a big role for us there. So this is what we tell the profilers to look out for evidence of wealth houses with bulletproof windows and doors and these are not your trophy homes these are very often tree bedroom modest houses in local authority areas where there's an inordinate amount of money into them. Excessive spending on renovations and what I call the man cave the shed at the bottom of the garden which is converted into the man's room so that the man can go out and do his coke and drink his beer and free from all interference from the outside world. It's usually a sign that something isn't right. In terms of cars, executive cars, SUVs that are frequently changed and perhaps registered to a third party or a false name or address like Las Vegas, Dubai, South America, Australia very often to Spain, Canaries and the UK very often centred around boxing tournaments and other issues like that that might be an indicator of the type of people that we're interested in and some of them create fictitious employment so they want to give the illusion that they're implied and if you can manage to break it they will actually be paying the so-called employer to create the illusion that they're implied by them so that they have tax and that they have a record that maybe get a mortgage on the basis of what they're well able to work. There are businesses that are fictitious as well we've had garages that are fictitious we've had security firms that exist in name only and then we have value goods like bags, clothes, footwear, jewellery watches and store cards. So when we train people as cab profilers we cover the legislation relating to cab and then our other agencies so the revenue customs and social protection cover what they do we cover anti-money laundering and counter-terrorism financing we cover the investigation of money laundering we always get an input from the asset seizure unit of the DPP's office on post-conviction confiscation and that office works very closely with ourselves in lots of ways and indeed we would use the asset profiler network at times we teach them about asset identification and we give them certain investigative tools we show them how to compile an asset profile and you know we tell them what their own responsibility is as an asset profiler it's important for us I think to look at the programme for government so the most recent programme for government is in 2016 and that programme commits to reviewing the existing process of crime legislation and ensuring that adequate support adequate resources are provided to support cab intacting money laundering and target the process of crime and I mean in 2016 we had an amendment to the process of crime act that gave us our administrative power of seizure and also reduced the threshold of value we are constantly in discussions with the department about reviewing the legislation and we spot new trends we'll always be passing it on to our policy people the government commits to examining how communities can better engage with cab including the provision of information on the suspected local use of the process of crime and the potential of a smaller cab being established to target regional or local assets we as a body are against minicabs or local cabs or regional cab we think that the cab that you have is quite a minicab as it is it's 91 people compared to I suppose 17,000 in a garish agona maybe 7,000 in revenue maybe 10,000 in social welfare we think that you will dilute what cab does if you try to create local or regional cabs but again we're happy to discuss that as an alternative we have put a lot of effort into the asset profiler network and working with the local communities and we briefed all the giant policing committees throughout the state from November 17 to December 18 all 36 JPCs we briefed and we got a lot of information in as a result of that we have a map here that shows in 2016 we had about 600 person targets throughout the state that's gone to 1,321 in September gone of note is that about half our targets are in the greater Dublin area just slightly less than half and about slightly more than half are outside of the greater Dublin within greater Dublin the DMR west stretches from Finglas to Raqqul has 235 which is twice the numbers in the next highest which are its near neighbours of DMR Nart and DMR South Limerick city and county is the next biggest area outside of it and then we noticed growing trends in the counties around Dublin like Dublin, Mead, Wexford, Loud counties that you'd expect that are close to Dublin so what does cab do well is to use multi-disciplinary investigation teams to identify and target assets to deny and deprive criminals of ill-gotten gains it does what it was set up for it doesn't pretend to do anything other than what its title says that's what it has all was done and it complements other law enforcement it doesn't, it's not operating exclusive to other law enforcement if I say this I think one of the most effective things we do is we carry out large scale search operations on warrants and when we do that we are about 80% of the journey there we have a fair good idea of what we're looking for it'll be convincing files it'll be evidence of spending it'll be assets sometimes we bring specialists that will look at how much was spent on that house so you could have a modest 250,000 house and we could satisfy the court and half a million was spent on it in renovations and extensions we've been targeting law and mid-tier criminals with the object of preventing them from becoming the godfathers of tomorrow if we could hit them harder earlier we feel that some of them mightn't go on the life of crime that they would otherwise we present our cases in public in the High Court but the exception of the first case which is ex-party all our other cases are presented in public and the public can see what's happening and in our own way along with other law enforcement we help to dismantle organised crime groups in terms of ICT we have a closed cab system but all of our officers have access to what we call their mothership system so a guard has access to the guard of pulse system a social welfare officer has full access to the social welfare information and the revenue taxes and customs have full access to their system that's very powerful to bring all those people with all that information the actor who set up in the first place allows for the exchange of information without any issues we are bringing, sorry the financing science lab in place so that we can examine computers and other devices we have two new developments one that's imminently about to be implemented which is called the asset and financial management system so that we will be able to produce like management reports about where our assets are, where our monies are it's necessary that that be brought in we have to put ourselves on a professional footing and e-discovery is about having the ability in a computer system to examine big data so there are big solicitors firms for example that have systems that are able to look through big volumes of computer generated data and ask them questions interrogate the data and help us in a way that if we got 500 extra people maybe if we had a good e-discovery system we'd be able to better do our work than necessarily getting extra people so I'm going to talk about very briefly about two cases one is Operation Laught which was about the fuel laundry that happened around Hatbal's Cross in County Loud but reading the story about that was like reading a novel about the whole illicit fuel trade right throughout the country because you had garages in every town particularly ones that had no brand on them where you had tankers delivering fuel in the middle of the night or early in the morning it was actually corrupting the whole fuel trade throughout the country and so CAB went after that entity and the case was finalised and settled in favour of the Bureau in 2018 and this is David Bourne who was murdered in the Regency Hotel again as I say in my view it's a turning point that caused us to start thinking again about organised crime so CAB went after Bourne organised crime group and seized assets that worked £2.7 million and one of the features of that case which we called Operation Lamp was that cars were being used as currency that cars were actually being swapped between criminals where money wasn't necessarily changing hands so somebody is owed a drug set give them a Range Rover and give them an X5 BMW instead and they're all happy the car won't be registering their name if the police stop them the car disappears so this is what the judge recognised in that court and so this is the nicest picture that you will ever find which is the sight of a transporter taking away the cars from LS active cars as it was called it should have been called LS inactive cars because there was no trade going on at all there all that was happening was that there were criminals meeting for crime summit and there were swapping cars with each other when we went through I think 29 days of CCDV we didn't find a single car sale that took place within the 29 days and so the court was satisfied that this motor business was used as a slush fund for the Bourne organised crime group which we told the court was the Kinhan organised crime gang in Ireland and so I never miss an opportunity to give out our telephone number 6663266 please phone us with information it's inevitable that somebody in this room has information press 2 you'll get true to a human being who will transfer you to somebody who will take your call we also have an email address which will be answered which is infoatcab.ie we have a very basic website www.cab.ie and we're on Twitter and Facebook and that completes my presentation chair