 the short-term rental committee will come to order madam clerk if you reflect the three committee members are present and accounted for yes sir we will begin our meeting I want to thank both the neighborhoods and the short-term rental industry for their input over the last few months we've been working on this for a year now and we I think we've come up with something that's ready for prime time it will be tweaked here there in yonder as it goes through the rest of the council you got three of us sitting here but they're four of us four of them that have not participated in these discussions and I'm sure some of them will have some opinions also but I think the ordinance is a good ordinance now and our attorney James Knox who has worked with us tirelessly over the last few months is going to take the podium James and go through the ordinance to explain where we are thank you mr. Chairman and before I get started we'll make sure everybody's got the most recent version of this ordinance so you should have a draft 12.7.22 I don't know if you don't and interest of time I'm gonna try to get this through this fairly quickly if I go too quick please slow me down and at any point if you got questions please ask so starting with 5-400 the scope of this article this section makes it clear this ordinance only applies to short-term rentals that are occupied for less than 30 days makes it clear that this ordinance will not apply to hotels motels bed and breakfasts or ends it also does not apply to rentals that are rendered for 30 days or more section 5-401 is the definition section the interest of time I'm not gonna go through each definition please let me know if you have any questions on those I would point out though for owner occupied because that does come into play later owner occupied is defined as a dwelling unit that is lawfully classified as owner occupied by the county and receiving the 4% special assessment ratio alright section 5-402 and these are the actual regulations that we have imposed on short-term rentals starting with subsection a an advertisement of an str essentially is sufficient enough to determine that is being offered by as an str subsection b provides that a business license would be required to operate str in the city subsection c code of compliance requirements essentially is just saying that if you're going to operate str in the city you have to comply with any and all ordinances at all times and then it kind of emphasizes the big six James yes sir point right there the representatives from the str industry wanted this ordinance to closely parallel the rental ordinance we passed five years ago now I reckon maybe six years ago and we have done that and this is one of the sections that we previously had some enumerated specific items to check and then we went back and put in the regulations there because that's the way it's done in the bigger rental ordinance long-term rental that's correct yes sir a subsection d is the insurance general liability insurance requirement in order to operate str in the city you have to maintain a policy limit of at least one million dollars per occurrence subsection e safety inspection that really just says the city if deemed necessary can go inspect the str provided they give the owner or the local representative of the owner 24 hours notice subsection f would impose certain record keeping requirement on the owner for a period two years including the name and phone number of each short-term guest that booked the short term for the previous two years subsection g would require the property owner his designee to take phone calls at any given time with any issues that may arise with str subsection a provides that permits are non transferable in the event somebody sells an str property and the new owner wants to operate it as a str they'd have to get a new permit minimum guest age would be 21 for the person making the actual booking minimum stay duration would be at least one night subsection k would require the permit number that's issued by the city to be included in the online advertisement subsection l is a requirement for certain information to be provided to the guests who stayed a short-term rental that would include emergency contact information the name and content information of the owner or local representative instructions or a diagram of a parking plan and any additional house rules opposed on the guest subsection m imposes the parking space requirements which is one space for every two bedrooms in a str not to exceed six vehicles subsection n is the maximum occupancy limit which is two persons per bedroom plus an additional two people per dwelling unit subsection o identity verification would require the local representative or make it clear that the local representative the owner is responsible for determining that a guest who booked the str is a fact staying there and then the last one the neighbor notification the owner or local representative of an str would have to notify all households within 200 foot radius of the str that property is being used as str and given the content information so I know that's a lot pause there open up any questions you may have when we want I do have a question under section g contact and it says the property owner must be willing to take phone calls at all times to address issues or the owner must provide the name mailing address and telephone number of a designated responsible local representative so what about if the owner is not local and I just want to make sure that we're covering that because that the owner he has to give the local representatives name he has to have a local representative within 45 miles of the str okay I just want to make sure that's clear that we are saying that they have to have a local contact is that how you read it I understand your question it has to go back and look at it well and maybe I'm going to intend I just want to make sure we have to be sure that there's somebody local that they can call I'm not quite sure chairman if the owner is not local that they would there's a requirement for a local representative I have to go back and look at that but it's a good point taken I'm making note of that Mr. Knox let me ask you a question thanks for pulling this together item D insurance and I don't know if you can answer this but what what kind of increases in insurance do you think would be seen would be realized by a short-term rental owner versus just an owner occupied what kind of a financial kind of burden extra expense are we talking about here for the insurance and maybe this is something if somebody from the short-term rental you know group could speak to you later yeah that's a good question honestly we haven't at least I haven't done any research on you know what the average homeowners currently paying versus what they would have to pay to meet this requirement for one million dollars okay all of the SDR owners that we work with said the million dollars was minimum for them I think they would be accustomed to this number and so if it owner occupied moves out for the weekend that's covered most likely under their home insurance yeah okay Howard you have all the answers today I appreciate it man well for three sir moving on to section five dash four zero three short-term rental permit required and this section really just makes it clear that or to operate SDR within the city either the owner or his local responsible representative would have to get a permit issued by the city there's a permit cycle provided in subsection B where any renewal for permit would have to be done by July 1st of a year if you don't meet that deadline you'd incur a late fee which we'll talk about later of one hundred dollars if you don't submit your application for renewal by July 31st that would result in the loss of the permit James you want to explain a we inadvertently dropped a sentence out of a oh yes sir yes sir so all the stakeholders stakeholders have greeted this a certain clause that was mistakenly omitted from this version has been in every previous version for the past really two three months but what that clause was it made it clear that one permit is specific to one str unit or address so you couldn't have one str permit and use that to operate multiple strs so that was an admission a mistake on my part and we'll be sure to include that in that's how our rental permits are right rental permits follow them the red the particular property right section five dash four zero four really just talks about the permit applications and associated fee subsection a provides that the city would have to provide a form to any applicants and the bare minimum that must be included in the application you'll find in subsection one through eight subsection be specifies the association associated permit fees which are required to be paid at the time of the application of those fees would include a nonrefundable application fee of $50 and then in addition to that for owner occupied strs permit registration fee of $100 for non owner occupied strs permit registration fee of $250 and then in addition to that if applicants seeking to renew their str permit application did not meet the July one deadline we talked about they would incur a late fee of $100 section five dash four zero five well I'm sorry can we go back to the man the late fee is that a one-time late fee assessed no matter if you're a month late or six months late just one flat fee I'm not advocating there I just want clarity it is because well it is a we could specify that it's just a one-time late fee but keep in mind that after July 31st you know six months later you would have to apply for a new permit you would you would no longer be eligible to renew your existing permit because come July 31st you have lost your permit which was that was outlined in five dash four of three B for the application renewal cycle good question there I'm making out of that all right I've had a five dash four zero five this section provides the standard or really the criteria for issuing a permit where if an applicant meets those four elements and a one through four the city has to approve an issue that that permit within 30 days from application submission the criteria generally is applications complete the fees have been paid the city's determined that the applicant has a compliance with everything in this ordinance and that issuers of the permit will not violate any provision of this ordinance five dash four zero six this section would impose a permit cap for non-owner occupied strs in a residential district so that one more time the cap would be limited to or it would only apply to non-owner occupied strs located in a residential district and how that cap would be determined under this proposal is 90 days from the passage of this ordinance you would look at how many permits were issued to non-owner occupied strs in a residential district and that number would be the cap so come day 91 if somebody wanted to apply for an str permit and it's a non or 6% str in a residential district they would have to place their name at no cost on a waiting list maintained by the city as a permit became available due to maybe a permit revocation you know somebody failing to renew their permit or just relinquishing the permit the city would have to notify the person on the waiting list who has been on the waiting list along this because it's first come first serve of that that open permit and the person would have 10 days to apply if they don't submit the application in 10 days or the application is denied for whatever reason in the city we then go to the next person on the list and so on does it make sense all right section five dash four zero seven really just says if someone possesses an str permit and decides they want to rent the property out for a period time greater than 30 days they would not have to get an additional permit under our existing rental regulation ordinance be treated as the same if you have an str permit you are permitted to rent for a period longer than 30 days if you have a regular permit you're not permitted to rent for less than 30 days unless you get a short-term rental permit right unless you get a short-term rental yes sir so you wouldn't need both of them if you're gonna if you're gonna rent short term you need to get the short term rental because that allows you to rent long term the opposite is not true if you have a long-term permit you can't read short term yes sir 30 days section five dash four zero eight is the violation section and it really is essentially the same as the violation section that we have for existing rental ordinance and it really just says if the owner the local rep or any of his guests violate us city ordinance that would be considered a violate they'll constitute a violation for the purposes of this ordinance in addition providing faults or inaccurate information information about a dwelling unit or short-term rental would constitute a violation failure to have an valid str permit in operating str would also constitute a violation subsection B creates really a point scheme for violations that is the same as our existing rental ordinance where for the first violation you'll be assessed one point for that violation for the second violation and any subsequent violations it would be five points assessed for that second or third or fourth occurrence and that's measured in a permit year and then additionally for each violation in section of subsection C you'd be subject to a monetary penalty of $100 for the first violation and for the second and subsequent violation it would be $500 and section five dash four zero eight is the process for revoking a permit and once a permit holder excuse me accumulates or once the permit accumulates 10 or more points that would then be subject to the revocation proceedings and the revocation proceedings here in this are the exact same that we have very existing in ordinance I don't think we need to read through all this it's the same as the long-term rental so 10 points and you you go to the board and may lose your mate may have your permit revoked correct 10 points yes sir you you're served with written notice by the police chief for his designee which would probably be the building official and yes you then go within 15 days if you so chose to have a hearing property maintenance board of appeals is that is that process similar to our permit our rental permit yeah it's the exact same you're in court type response if you put a work plan in place so it's a fix the issue which we currently do under the rental permit correct yeah it's kind of like a informal trial really all right in our last section section five dash four zero nine excuse me permit application after revocation this section just makes it clear that if someone is subject to a revocation they have a six month period in which a six month waiting period before they can apply for an additional permit or apply for any permit for that matter and that permit is specific to that dwelling unit for which the revocation occurred additionally if someone has had their permit revoked more than once for a particular dwelling unit they would no longer be eligible to apply for an SR permit for that one unit right that is it any questions yeah I got let's back up to the two permits the rental permit and the short-term rental permit so if an individual has the annual lease leasing they would go for just the regular rental permit that we have in place correct so but if they wanted to pursue a short-term rental option for their dwelling they would possibly just do the short-term rental permit and not the rental so I guess my question is the short-term rental permit is not just a subsection of boxes that you check under our normal rental permit ordinance that's in place that makes sense I think it does think what you're saying different processes there's two separate requirements and two separate processes correct with one caveat a permit holder of a SCR permit that permit would qualify for a long-term permit so long as they also so long as they also comply with the long-term rental ordinance that's important okay gotcha thank you that answers most of my questions there thank you one of the issues that we we will address through a committee that will be established at the council level is that the SDR industry wanted some way to come up with additional permits under certain conditions I plan to ask the council to establish a committee we hadn't exactly decided maybe seven people and let each one of us pick one person but that hasn't been established yet but that committee would look at the data that we will be gathering after the first 90 days to see where they are and what what neighborhoods are most impacted and we'll look at the possibility of establishing a special exception that would go to the Board of Zoning Appeals for certain specified quality qualities there may be a house that's been abandoned for some time there there may be some code violations that the code enforcement people say this house is not in good shape it might be available put on the SDR market so I want the committee to look at how we can establish a procedure that would involve the neighborhoods the Board of Zoning Appeal the SDR industry to see if there are opportunities to use the desire of the SDR industry to have other permits available to them under certain specified conditions and with public support so that that committee will be established by resolution and will not be part of the ordinance but I think the council will be certainly willing to establish that I've asked two people to ask a question real quick sure David at your code enforcement could you could you just comment on you know you've been a part of this process your team do you see a path forward to efficiently and effectively enforce what what is being put in place and also added workforce to possibly keep up with with this surge in permits can you comment on that I think we it'd be a similar process to what we've already implemented the rental ordinance so I think it would be kind of a we already experienced in this I do anticipate it'll be additional workload and I do think we'll probably need additional staff to maintain this and keep up with the points and the fees and everything is that is that two three more employees what what what do you think to effectively make sure everything is administered correctly okay and we are planning on two from the permit fees we'll have to see after 90 days if that that will be enough great thank you so much David quick question since you're up here the amount of time to approve the permits about how long is it taking for us to approve our current rental permits I say we have 30 days here we generally turn around in a few days I guess it depends since these are all gonna be renewed in July we'll have to make sure we're prepared and ready to turn them around quickly so obviously another result we need to have the two people dedicated to this because we'll hopefully be able to stay up on that the long-term rental permits are due and renewed on January 1 yes and that's a new thing that just starts this January 1 so we're we're teaming up for that now this this is set up so the first year you get a permit it will last until July 1 of 2024 so you might get a 15-month permit instead of a 12-month permit and then it will be renewed on July 1 but the long-term permits will be on January 1 so it'll help them on the workload the work to balance it out I got you thank you Dave we have had representatives from the sdr's and from the neighborhoods and I'd like to ask it Smith to come up and give us her opinion on where we are where we are thank you mr. chairman members of the committee first of all let me make it clear that I don't represent any formal group we've been an informal group connected with neighborhoods throughout the city particularly the city the neighborhoods that are more affected by the sdr's because we're the ones closer to the entertainment districts to the university where naturally the sdr's want to locate so you're not going to hear from the folks too much out in st. Andrew's or further away from those entertainment districts I would say so just know that I'm not officially representing anyone it's at the loose group that's been working together and I want to compliment the sdr group we've been working with we've all had we've had really good meaningful discussions and I think we've come a long way of understanding one another's concerns and tried to reach a middle ground and I think this is a good one for Colombia I will point out that most other cities in South Carolina are being more restrictive on the location in the neighborhoods and we're working with the sdr's here the ones that already exist and the ones that want to come to try to accommodate them but we are still concerned about what goes on in the neighborhoods I have a few questions if I may and that they don't have to be answered today but just to calm your attention is this amending the zoning is this going in the zoning ordinance or just stand alone because the zoning it'll be an ordinance standing alone from the zoning ordinance well the zoning tables will have to be changed I think because it's gonna allow something that isn't in the zoning ordinance now I just thought of that today or I would have brought it up earlier but that's that's just to think about we'll get Krista look at the Krista the the rate of growth in Colombia has been pretty substantial since we started this discussion we had about less than 200 according to the website air DNA and we're now closer to a thousand so is growing pretty rapidly 18% a quarter so that that's threatening to the neighborhoods and the quicker we can get this in place and find out exactly what's out there and how we can move forward together would be give us great reassurance we would like and I should have asked mr. Hatcher this earlier but if we could get a copy of that checklist that goes with long-term rentals that we're also going to hand to the short-term rental folks that it's sort of a abbreviation for all the all these codes that are mentioned the building code the fire code the health and safety code I think that would help the public to understand exactly what we're going to be asking and give assurance that there's going to be some safe safety rails there for the public and for the neighborhoods we do have this is a question but is a site is a warning the same thing as a citation this it says that they'll be issued a warning and if there's a big problem like in the rosewood str where the murders were committed in 21 it then seems to me you shouldn't just get a warning for a bad violation first time around even I mean I know there'd be police action and if there was a crime but also in terms of the str enforcement well in the rental code they and David can correct me but they have particular things require the types of like shooting and guns would not be a warning like by the code I think is actually a major offense that's five points just make we just wanted to make sure we understood that correctly and I'm willing to you know don't don't need an answer today I just wanted to call that to your intention David I just I do want to ask David shooting from a rental unit is at five points at 10 points and if you have a rental and we find out that someone in the rental is shooting actively shooting randomly in the neighborhood is that five or 10 it's an automatic 10 points for serious violation yes and you kicked out automatically the 10 point is the 10 point max is in this but the the serious offense I don't think is written into this short term in ordinance so we need to add it that'd be an automatic revocation if they had something thank you good question thank you then we are concerned about the the the permanent situation and we had a we had a good fruitful discussion with the str industry and we agreed to do this that it we wanted the cap to be sort of a permanent cap that could be eroded over time as they closed down but we have agreed that there'd be a finite cap that could stay forever and ever to you guys change your minds but if if the if the caps is not put in a specific geographic area we're going to end up with all of them in other words if there's one as there is in Heathwood and that one decides to go away then that permit whoever gets that permit and is on the waiting list is probably going to want to come closer to five points or the Vista or the football stadium so we would like to have some guardrails around the location of those permits may and I mean I don't know how to do it well just occurred to me last night maybe just say within a mile of the existing permit because it doesn't go with the property is that correct it goes with the whoever it's like getting a taxi license in New York City so we don't we don't want them to gradually all end up in our neighborhoods and then just a caution about enforcement and this is true of almost all local ordinances and laws in fact is it takes the people the citizens to enforce that there aren't going to be Mr. Hatcher doesn't have enough people to ride around on Saturday nights and go by and check every str in the city so we have to report them and sometimes that turns neighbor against neighbor and and it makes it very difficult so and also we so it's going to depend on us to enforce that we realize that we have to report things but we would also like somewhere along the line to have a 24-hour call I mean it happens on weekends on nights when when the cut enforcement folks aren't at work and if it's not a police violation if it's a dog or maybe you'll send a policeman to do check that out but we think the police force should be used looking at more serious things so and I hope there'll be enough money available to make enforcement available to citizens just to make a phone call and get some response 24-7 I know that's asking a lot but we would really appreciate it I think that's it Mr. Lynn Shirley's here from Hollywood Rose Hill I cover everything Lynn. So I just wanted to follow up on the cap and making making sure that one or two neighborhoods don't get all of the short-term rentals because that is one of my concerns as well but is the thought that the committee once we get the data in and see exactly where they are I just want to know what our process is going to be then we'll be able to assess how those numbers are but that is a legitimate concern that we don't have 90 percent of them 90 percent of them want to cross in his district I think that would be that would be in the purview of the committee that will be formed to look at some of the things that you just talked about right here location the permit being the primary yes but that would be very helpful but also under the under just this ordinance the permits can transfer yet that if I own an Airbnb and I decide not to own one anymore then my permit goes on the waiting list and somebody else can get it but not they wouldn't necessarily take the one that you not the same location that you right what I'm saying is they could take it yeah the first one on the list gets to get a permit that's right and they could come into our neighborhood when they weren't there before so that's the concern we understand yeah so if there's well some way to do that between now and the time you pass this thing I really think that would be a long way towards helping helping us out that's a great one yeah I just don't know if we'll have the data to make the decision that's true yeah I mean just to be honest because I think we need to see where the concentration is because maybe later on we can look at if one gets revoked or someone stops their permit you know we limit the locations that the new one can be in but I personally don't think we have the data right to make that decision yeah I think you're absolutely right from day one we've realized what is the data what are the metrics and so I think this period of time will help us gather that to send us on the the right path and I agree with that except then that puts the onus on us while you're waiting on the data all of these permits could be I mean this is probably an exaggeration and I'm willing to go with the flow here but you could have 50 people that give up their permits before you have a have made a decision because you don't have the data and they all come to Shandon Wells Garden Hollywood Rose Hill MLK Waverly the areas that we've been working with so and the data shows now that more than 50% of them are in 29205 and 29201 the data we have I mean who knows if it's good or not so it's just well we'll have good data after during that time period that everyone has to apply to get there so that's that's a small yeah during that period maybe we could figure something out yeah at the end of that 90 days which is not really far off we will have a good sense of where everything is that I think that's well taken so it's not as long that you are and then I'm assuming during that time too and we won't have people turning them in during those 90 days true I understand okay I'm I'm trusting you thank you so much and again let me just thank mr. Duvall he's been really patient with me and with our group and also I really respect the short-term rental industry and I appreciate you working with them and getting to know them so thank you very much for all your work thank you Kit David Bergman has represented the SDR industry from the get go along with others and I have appreciated getting to know him and and understanding more about the industry and David would you like to have some comments yeah sure thank you thank you chairman committee for having me just to Kit's last point I actually think if anybody's getting a permit within that 90 days just keep in mind they're going to have it for a year so you're going to have 12 months is going to be your time for that analysis before anybody's going to be giving up their permit is would be my unless you voluntarily or we have a lot of code enforcement issues happening but I just really don't see that happening much in the first year so I think that'll be a good window for us to do the analysis and I would offer my experience doing that if you guys need it I mean a lot of economic experience and data analysis experience that's just kind of my thing so I'd love to help you guys in that and and also no short term rentals and I know how to kind of delve into that data get into the zip codes and stuff like that so there's anything I can do just just let me know I really appreciate you guys giving me this opportunity to speak I'm also like kit not a formal representative just trying my best to represent the views of other hosts in the area some of them here today a lot of them not so I'm trying to do my best to do that and kind of represent all sides whether that's an owner occupied not an unoccupied property manager or just somebody who has a single rental really quickly just want to remind the council again and I apologize it's a little bit like a broken record but I I do really hope that at some point we can see the data on code enforcement I know that this will enable us to do that so I'm hopeful that like 12 months down the road we can look at the data for short term rentals and see like are the offenses that we're seeing are we over represented or under represented as far as like compared to a normal long-term rental I'm just I'm going to go ahead and make a prediction that we're we're going to end up seeing many more fewer violations for short term rentals than long-term rentals I hope the data bears that out again I'd be happy to help with that we did also see that short term rentals as kit mentioned have increased over the past year that that is certainly in the data we've seen that the demand for alternate accommodations has grown during covid as people don't want to necessarily be in a lobby they want to bring their pets with them they're they're looking for longer stays so short term rentals are our solution to that and so the demand has caused this increase in supply and that's that's how the market works certainly just want to point out that as we do get this data you know look forward to re-examining everything we've done you know I I hope that this is not just something that will just stay forever something we can continue to work on work through and I'm happy to have that partnership with you guys the draft has really come a long way and being a part of that process was great and I appreciate Howard you inviting me into that we've given a lot of feedback in those meetings and we made a lot of headway there we lowered the permit fees we simplified the permits to be more consistent with long-term rentals we've made the language more relevant to short-term rentals for instance calling them guests guests rather than tenants because they're not tenants and and also removing some of the the requirements that were really not enforceable in any way so we've really made a lot of progress on this and so you know appreciate kit and everybody else who was a part of the process we still have a few concerns and I would be remiss not to bring those up here in front of council and talk through them so that at least you guys are aware that those are concerns that we still have there's not a lot but just to go through them really quickly the discussion around the cap is probably the most important thing we believe that a cap is much better than a ban after 90 days which was where we were at last time of course we prefer to have the free market decide what's the optimal level and I think we'll see that there's a big reduction in the next few months as people are not traveling as much with the economy so I do think a cap will will tend to limit economic activity and travel to the city and I don't necessarily think that's a good thing I think it will also open the city up to potential litigation like we've seen in other cities where people believe that renting their property is a property right in many cities and states there are class action lawsuits lawsuits relating to caps and bans specifically and oftentimes the argument is that you're taking away somebody's economic opportunity for their property and therefore they need to be compensated for that so I'm just bringing that up because it should be considered carefully and really recommend a full legal review of that just to make sure that that's you know something that's not going to expose the city to a significant amount of risk um and David hold on for one second before you go further I do want to clarify that my thought was that this was a temporary cap while we go through the data over the next year or so or are we saying this is the permanent gap well nothing's permanent this this can be changed by four votes from council but it is a permanent cap until it is changed okay I just needed that clarification and then business license are currently a requirement in the draft and for me that's no problem but I do worry about the 80 percent of hose to just are managing a single room in their house or a single rental property or maybe you know an additional dwelling over their garage like is is a business license too much um perhaps we could just say if it's if it's above a certain number of properties under management of business licenses required that's just one thought of a potential solution or maybe it just not at all yeah I agree I would like to look at that well I'll just throw in if you operate a home-based business you have to have a business license and I kind of see it because I have a home-based business um we have to get a business license for my one little house it's my two cents so maybe if the process is easy for host um and the city's good about you know helping host tour in that situation maybe we can have a fly or something when we issue permits that helps them understand that process I think that'll help a lot neighbor notification requirement that we talked about for a minute I'm really concerned about that one I don't mind and I do notify neighbors direct neighbors um but to say 200 feet it seems like that's going to be a very high bar to meet and I mean we manage some just in an apartment building here on main street there's got to be 200 residents and in 200 feet I mean that's the entire apartment building so I would maybe just say perhaps we could consider modifying that that from like a distance to maybe being your left and right neighbor maybe the across the street neighbor something like that that's just a little bit more straightforward and would not result in a lot of notifications in highly dense areas did you say 100 feet I think you said 200 feet radius we had 200 feet in there yeah did I hear you say 200 uh 100 feet or did you say contiguous neighbors just directly next door contiguous neighbors yeah yeah that was my my potential alternative because I just think that if you're in a highly dense area it could be not practical to to address everybody in a 200 foot radius so that was just a week we request that when they do tell the neighbors that they leave their contact info right yeah as the contact for right okay and then for guests that are the requirement for guests to be 21 I know I've gotten a lot of feedback from other hosts that they host a lot of people that are 18 to 21 that are very respectful a lot of them are prospective students at the university so just you know I wanted to bring that up that potentially 18 is maybe a better start and would would mean that we're not discriminating on age in this ordinance the current draft lays out a system for points that is consistent with long-term rentals that's great I think I just got some feedback as well that like when we go to actually administer and ministering the points can those points be consistent consistent across long-term and short-term and one example that I hadn't even thought of is what happens if you are doing more of a 30-day 60-day or a year-long rental in between and how would those points be administered I'm not really sure is it so if you had consistency in everything points and violations not only would that be simpler for code enforcement it would be simpler for us and just maybe more practical as well so that was just I didn't even think of that during our discussion so that's just a new point to bring forward David can we go back to the age requirement minimum guests age and this is for you all to look at the guests making the booking or reservation shall be at least 21 years of age and I may have missed it it just requires the person making the reservation is there a connection making the person who makes the reservation be the person who stays because I think I saw that one time in the order of the managers to make sure that the person making the reservation in fact inhabits the STO well I'm just going to throw out that you know other people sometimes make reservations for me um for the city so I mean we want to consider that part to sometimes family members I just don't I just want y'all to think through that but I have family members or who make reservations for me it's not me making them and then I don't know how enforceable it is either I'm just throwing that out there and I do the same for my parents they don't know how to use uber I've ubered them to the to the airport stuff like that I mean sometimes it's just that the new technology and the new apps are just not as as easy to understand for older generations I just want y'all to think about that language and how we would enforce it and then the final thought I had is about the how the permits could be potentially reassigned I don't think we called it transferability but we talked about how if you have existing owner of a property and they have a short-term rental permit and then it moves to a new it could be reapplied for by a new owner that's that's great and that was something we had asked for and I appreciate that being included um one other situation or scenario that we considered that might also solve for what what kit was talking about is um you know could we also consider transferring a permit between properties so long as that's um also reapplied for with the same um in meeting all the requirements of the permit so if I had property a and it's in Heathwood and I decide right right now the incentive for me as a host is to keep that forever for fear that I would lose that permit on that house but really it would be it would be good as a host to be able to say that house is no longer you know I don't want to keep my permit there I want to relinquish it and potentially move into another property with that instead um so just something to consider as well there I need you to text and I'm not trying to prolong but I need you to explain that to me because I'm trying to figure out under what circumstances would you want to transfer ownership I mean transfer the permit like why would and does that mean if they're shutting down the first one yeah like say it's it just makes more sense to have long-term rentals or maybe I want to sell the property um I just want to I don't want to do short term rentals with it um and that happens like a lot of people will will properly want to do that and um and so if I as the permit holder could just reapply let's say within a period of 30 days to a new property so I don't just lose my permit outright that would be advantageous for host just a consideration and then we at sorry did you want to comment okay and then find one other thing we just had the discussion about revocation and talking about that you could not if it's been revoked by a property owner I just noticed in that meeting that it says you could not reapply as that owner or manager I managed quite a few in the area um I would just like for that to maybe say for that property so I could still reapply if I had a property that was revoked that's what it says doesn't it say for the property I think that just might be a technical question it didn't it didn't look like it said that if that's the intent maybe we just look at it it says for a dwelling unit that has been subject to a permit revocation it's but then it goes on to say that that host can no longer apply for another permit within six months so you can apply but you have to wait six months after the revocation from revocation of an str permit or of a dwelling unit the owner responsible local representative of the dwelling unit will not be eligible to apply for a new permit until six months have passed from the date of revocation the city will not issue an str permit for a dwelling unit that has been subject to a permit revocation more than once I think that does what you're talking about it okay if it does if that's the intent and that's what it does yeah my concern was just if I if I'm in the larger host who's managing quite a few if I had one that was revoked would I never basically be able to if somebody brought another one to me we'll look at that but I think that it does what you're thinking and I guess what you may be asking is let's say one he has 10 properties one gets revoked in March and it's renewal time is he prevented from renewing the other 10 because I mean the other nine because of the revocation with one send that in the email David sounds good yeah okay well that's that's it as far as my you know just what I've gotten as far as feedback from other hosts my own feedback I tried to kind of compile it from what I've seen but but just a final a final thought and we brought this up in the meeting as well but in other municipalities they've really had challenges with enforcing permits making sure that there's not a black market that's being created because the the permits are no longer obtainable let's say after the 90 days so people will be out there just running short-term rentals illegally so we as a city just need to have a plan of course everybody in here will be operating legally and have our permits but for those that aren't we just want them to compete on a level playing field we want them to have permits to pay the the permit fees we want them to be subject to the same safety requirements so we just need to to make sure we have a plan of action for enforceability do you have just as the short-term rental industry now have a working group put together amongst you know managers owners everything would always be great to have your help and you know looking out for stuff like that and moving forward yeah we have an unofficial group we do not have an official group but certainly happy to help and I'm sure I know a lot of people in the group want to be a part of everything that's going on and weigh in so whatever we can do to help so along with enforceability just keep in mind that you can't just go to out to Airbnb and find the locations of a of a problem rental or a rental that does not have a permit you will get an area or radius around it which could be up to a mile so unless you're unless you're really going to a third-party service that's you know charging the city to basically get the data on where they actually are because they're using technologies to basically triangulate where those are unless you're paying for those services it's going to be very hard for just a person sitting in the city to administer and enforce this thing so I just want to keep you guys aware of that because we've seen that issue in Greenville and Charleston other cities where they've enforced bans that you really have to you have to get one of these outside services and that's going to be a cost that we have to bear so as we're maybe we better go back up to five hundred dollars you'll just have more illegal rentals we do plan to get a third-party administrator to come in and help us with this and your question about enforcement as miss Smith said it's going to be up to us including y'all to help us enforce so to make sure that there are no black market strs out there and the second thing is that by requiring the advertisement from a permitted str to show the permit number on the advertisement we don't help us pick out the ones that do not have that permit number and we can send the code enforcement people that yeah and so my point is you'll see the advertisement on let's say Airbnb is where that one is you'll see that's in Shandon but you're not going to know this is 2915 Monroe street you know you're not going to it's not going to be that easy so that's that's always just pointing out you're going to need somebody who can actually find and pinpoint that address because it is not marketed we'll um we had great response when we did the long-term rentals from the neighborhoods we got a lot of people that were listing four percent homes that were really six percenters uh because the neighbors turned them in and I think the citizens around here will help us enforce this if we if and when we get it passed thank you David I do appreciate your cooperation here and all of this I just had one thing based on the the well not for David but um Mr Knox if we could I don't think I saw it in here but some kind of language addressing um when people are intentionally operating without a license I think that there should be a penalty for that not they just hadn't heard about it because that's the situation too but if if we find out that for instance we've told them they need to get a um permit and a month later we see that we had they haven't okay so yes person shouldn't have one so section five dash four zero eight does have a provision dealing with um operating STR without a valid permit constitutes a violation but a hearing is I think you want an intent requirement in there I think this may be I think this would be a different statement it would be if they're found intentionally operating i.e. intentionally means they've been given some level of notice and they still haven't done it then are we all together then they shouldn't have a permit ever okay ever ever ever okay we we have at least three people in here that have a five o'clock hard stop um and so we're going to um bring this to a close I do thank everybody for their participation today is there a thought from the committee on sending this to the full council um Mr. Chairman I want to thank everybody that's participated in the process I think we've brought it far enough along that um the warrants going to um full council probably to be appointed to a work session to update our colleagues any comments feedback edits and then you know after that the readings in general city council so there will be more opportunities for public input I think that is needs to be needs to be communicated but again I just want to thank everybody's effort on this did you make a motion I'm seconding that what that motion did you want to make a motion that was a yes that was a motion that was a motion and I'm seconding the motion seconded by Mrs. Herbert um Madam Clerk would you call the roll this is a motion to send it to the full council Mr. Herbert hi Mr. Burnett yes Mr. Duvall thank you I appreciate everybody's participation in this process as you can see from the comments we got tonight there's still things that we need to straighten out but we will get it straight thank you we we're adjourned