 So my name is Edwin, I started at Stenombosch, I did my three year course, I became Actuarial Science and then a year of Honours after that and I think initially at school I didn't know about Actuarial Science, I thought I would probably become an accountant or something because that's what most of the other kids did, if you didn't become a rugby player at my school. I had that dream but I think in like standard age when I was not playing for the BT I realised that I probably wasn't going to fly. So I went to see a career, what do you call it, advisor who told me about it and I think all that I knew at that stage is I enjoyed mathematics and science and sort of statistics and analytical side of things and I think what she, what she said to me is it's a universal degree, it gives you access to any country, it's challenging and it's analytical. On that basis I started with it but then obviously subsequently you discover a bit more about what it really entails. But actually what I was surprised is that to your university, I mean you do your subjects but you've got very little idea about what the real world is. Would you really do like I remember when I went to my first interview they asked me well are you interested in life, general or short term or investments and I pretty much said well whatever you're offering I mean you don't really have a feel for it while you're studying. But I think the thing that appealed to me the most was the fact that it was a challenge, it was analytical so it led me to think in a structured way and that it was really just came down to problem solving because we had a lot of the technical stuff that I've learned, the technical work I've never used in my L series and I mean sometimes you come across some of those or like even just basic stuff about that in nothing, I can't remember anything about that. But some of it's probably just sort of faltering the candidates to to see where that really appeals to you. But what I've used is the fact that it teaches you to solve problems and to think along a logical path. I was also similar to you in the sense that my brother studied accounting. So I was just in the mindset that I was just studying accounting and then family friends said you know what about a cure of science and they looked at it then. Also the whole fact that it was the challenge it had you know this is the hardest degree and I was like let me try, let me try. Most people say that but yes I've seen like the amount of work that the accounting students had to go through to study and engineers and stuff and there's a couple of other degrees that I think that I personally would find a lot harder. I mean you look at a doctor and that's like the time period and blood, having to work with blood and guts and stuff. Oh no, so I think we need each of us to definitely the right one. But can you tell us just a little bit more about your career path and how you think about it? Yeah, so after completing my honors I went up, no I started down here in Statenbosch then I went up to Momentum in Centurion. So I started there. I worked in the valuations department for about two years. So that's one of the like doing the real technical actual work, reserving and laps implications and modeling claims and new business and everything. I think I quickly discovered that some people are born for that. Some people start with that and die doing that like really getting stuck into the numbers in a dark office some way and I think for other actuaries it's valuable having that insight like understanding how business is valued and how important it is to have an accurate assumption of claims or lapses or policy growth or whatever. Having those building blocks was valuable for me because I think it is that in any business, in any business where actuality involves. But I'm not that detail orientated so I could only do about two years away. Then I moved to life insurance product development for about two years which is still like Momentum. But in that role it was more you sort of more used that communication skills that being that liaison between the understanding the actual part and how premiums are calculated and why you have this exclusion and whatever and being able to explain that to brokers and consultants and the market out there. So there was a bit of those skills that I developed. Then I moved back down to Cape Town about three years ago. I joined Sunlum. Initially I was in the sort of the pricing team so calculating premiums and product features and if we launch a new benefit how many claims are we expecting? I think we call it product management and then about a year and a half ago we started Indiefit. So that's when the project started or that's when we got the brief. But it took us a while to figure out because our brief was wide. Our brief was figure out financial services for the millennial market. It could have been anything. It could have been any product, any platform, anything. So then we started the project to see okay but what do we offer? What is the pitch? What makes it different? Initially for instance internally we launched a product called GoCover which is instant accidental benefit. So it's an app you can buy on your phone and you can buy up to a million rand of live cover on accidental basis but now underwriting doesn't cover injuries. Covering injuries doesn't cover illnesses but I mean so if you want to go hiking or on a road trip or skiing or whatever and you want cover but you don't want to go through forms and paperwork and have a deceased you can buy it on your phone in 30 seconds for periods. Let's start now up to 30 days. The cover is for one day to 30 days. We launched that as an experiment actually to see how quickly can we get something out. How do people respond to that? How do we, and even internally in Sandlam, how do we manage the reporting and sign off and all of that in the numberless fashion. And then how was that budget? Was it a success or something? Yeah I mean so for us I think most of the learning was in how quickly we get it out because and this is for Sandlam but it's very true for most financial big financial services. Once you've got big systems big legacy systems that as many as the policies from the 70s it takes very long to get something new done and everyone has got the best intentions but just you can imagine any system is so complex that in order to do something new you have to configure okay how am I going to do this. Actually you don't break all the other stuff that tastes it and then go through the approval process and everything so I mean all the companies that I've heard of from the time that you have an idea and this is not breaking the mold completely launching new benefit or premium pattern. From the time that you have an idea to it gets implemented is if you get that done in 12 months that's flipping for us. Oh wow. Normal cycle is a bit longer than that. From the time that the idea is sort of hatched to when it gets when the guy can buy it. So what we had to do with go coverage is find out okay how do we go about doing stuff quicker because in this world mistake world if it takes you 12 months to get something out you did but at the time that you get something out there's something way better and the world has moved on and I think we find that we find that quite interesting and challenging and exciting the fact that this world moves so fast. And so tell me is Indie film there is it a separate company or is it Sanla? Yeah it depends on which way you look at it. So technically it's a division within Sanla. So not a separate company not even a separate FSP belongs it's a division it belongs completely to Sanla. The products that we sell is actually sold under the Sanla life license. So in the contract you'll see that it's a contract between you the policy holder and Sanla. So in that sense Indie film is the brand that you see but what we were very fortunate with is that they allowed us to do stuff completely independently. So the way that we onboard a client the way that we interact with the client the policy features the language even the way that we run our team is completely independent we've got full autonomy over there in order to I think what Sanla has also learned is that Sanla is any big company is very good at running this big ship that they are but if you're launching a lifeboat off that you need a different mindset and skills and way of working so they've so we're very fortunate in the sense that they've allowed us to to do things differently to try to experiment speak differently to do as let the big corporate put into but they have the backing of Sanla. Is there one like the only way like you say we are both David and Delage? Exactly because I think what we've also discovered is if we were a proper startup in a garage somewhere with a VC funder or something there's a lot of lessons that a big corporate learns over time that a startup would have to learn themselves which means failing and losing money. So I mean just in the compliance support that we get that we can tap into from Sanla the way that they say claims the knowledge in underwriting all the legal minds the other actuaries that look at things and point out things to consider I think I think we we're not ashamed of pointing it out that if we didn't have that we're completely on our own it would take us long and we'd make much more mistakes before we before we got to where we are now. But I think that the most interesting thing about the indie fund product is this concept of bouncy. I mean so I look at bouncy and maybe just explain if I'm just tell me if I'm getting this wrong but I see it as a buy insurance with you guys and what you do is you factor in like part of their premium goes towards an investment fund and you say that in 20 years time I'm going to get say 50 000 red and you're playing off the whole time value of money idea and so I can't ask you for 50 000 right now I've to wait you know so many years but because money grows and continuously compounded it can reach that rate am I correct in saying that's what the bounty is or is it something that's yeah yeah that's some of the essence of it I think I mean when we looked at what other guys have sorry to to reward you for for buying insurance because the problem with insurance traditionally is that you lack insurance you pay money every month in case something terrible happens something terrible doesn't happen and you've been there for 30 years there's nothing that you have access to there's nothing that you've built up that if you leave out three years you've got nothing you've had peace of mind during that time but there's no way to reward you for staying there okay so what some guys have done is they've done a clash back or premium back where they say okay you'll get after 15 years if you haven't claimed you'll give you all your premiums back in nominal terms the big problem is one of the values of indies and is that we want to be transparent we want people to understand what they're we don't want to hide behind clever marketing talk whatever to to get you to buy something that ends up being something else so our pain with the with the cashback message is you'll see some TV ads say in 15 years time you're going to get 40 000 rounds and then the guys say okay I'm going to take my family on overseas holiday but obviously no anyone that knows anything about inflation but in 15 years time with that 40 000 grand I think if you get to nice now you've done well well but that's the thing is in my family um my parents are a little bit skeptical about insurance because my grandfather bought out all these policies that had nominal values yes and he's like wow you know in 10 years time I'm going to make so much money I'm going to be so wealthy I'm going to be so rich but like you say inflation especially in South Africa called everybody of god and that you know wow 20 000 and when he was doing it could bought him an entire house now couldn't even like change the tires on his car exactly you know it's and so it was it was quite depressing in a sense so so it's weird my parents have got a very so they don't have any life insurance um I don't have any life insurance which is weird I mean being selling actual science there you know but I mean I think that's okay maybe let me just explain just finish the concept of bounty I can mention something about this what type of insurance you need so what bounty our bounty works is if you come today and you take out a policy then based on your age and your premium we say okay there's an amount that's invested for you and it's a very significant amount for instance you're 30 years old and your premium is 500 grand a month across all your benefits you'll get about 50 000 grand that's invested for you the difference is that is in today's money and that gets invested and you can then choose do you want this 50 000 to be invested in equity or bonds or property or cash or whatever you get the return according to what you investing in but all the growth is yours so it's 50 000 today's money if in a year's time it's grown to 55 000 then you've got 55 000 so the concept is different so we're not telling you you're going to get this amount in future we're giving you a big amount today and that amount grows which should keep up at least with depending on what you invest in should keep up with inflation also every time that your premium increase we throw more into the pot this whole pot is accessible at the end it's 70 but also every five years there's a portion of that that you can cash out and do whatever you want the skeptic in me always says if something sounds too bad absolutely we've got that yeah so what what is the what is the cash in a sense are the premiums a little bit more expensive than a traditional insurance or or how did you design the product yeah i'm sure indy finne wants to make money we need we need to make money i think i think one of the one of the other things that's valuable of having this backing of sunlum is that i mean anyone can do a start-up and say take cover with me i'm going to pay your claim but they also need to be trust but that company's still going to be there in 10 years time and three years time and 50 years time when you need your claim paid um so indyfinite's got the backing of sunlum that means sunlum will stand in to pay the claims but also it needs to be a sustainable business in order to to make business sense so the way that we looked at it is when we priced it is yes it's if you look at what you're going to pay out on bounty obviously even in prison value terms if you had two policies then obviously the one with bounty has an extra outgo that that you need to factor in however especially with this type of market the premium that you pay is heavily dependent on what we as a company need to pay in order to get a customer on the books so the advertising that we need to do and the marketing campaigns and everything that we need to do to to get a customer on the books and the cheaper we can acquire a client that the cheaper the premium becomes because our premium literally cost of acquisition plus claims plus expenses and profit so so there's two factors the cost of your choir clients and how long they stay with you the other big problem that a business has that doesn't use intermediaries to sell the policy so when a client can come and buy himself is that they have very high lapses traditionally even in excess of 30 percent a year which is because clients are buying it themselves and there's no pressure from the broker to keep that policy enforced because i'm making a commission so at the moment we selling direct so when you come to us you're interacting with us direct we're also working on a proposition to allow advisors to to sell it because we don't think it's either this or that we think the base model is to allow you to interact with us in the way that you want to whether it's yourself or whether you want to use a broker we'd like to offer you the choice as a client but so when we look at the price when we determine the price we what we assume is that if we've got this concept bouncy that should attract because it's a attractive feature it's a world first from what we've seen the fact that we invest the amount on day one you get all the growth they haven't seen that somewhere else the width and i mean it allows us to tell you look come and take out a policy and you'll get 50 000 or 100 000 whatever invested so the upside is that we don't have to spend that much marketing in order to add to acquire clients so you could you we expect that we'd get more clients for the same marketing money with this feature as opposed to without it plus we we hope that they'll stay longer with us which is obviously in the client's base interest once they build up bounty to to stay with us and those two factors mean that actually if we had to offer another policy that didn't have bounty and we price that policy as a different entity or whatever we had to do marketing on that policy and assume the worst persistency that policy although we're not paying more because it's more expensive to get them on the books and we assume that they that lapsed earlier because i mean this is the interesting thing about insurance is that people are coming up with these crazy ideas i mean there was also that there's public i think it was called channel for life where it was a referral system or a marketing network so i would then sell insurance to my friends and then i'd get a little bit of their premium and i think some of them was involved with them somehow i don't know if they were using the license or something like that but i don't think they've been as successful as you know how it is how they wanted to be um and it's almost i mean we're seeing an insurance not much has been disrupted so far i mean that's scary i mean like there's this new thing called lemonade that's come up in the states but i don't have the highest of hopes for that in South Africa like i did in my last interview was pineapple they're also promising you know something different but is insurance one of those things where it's been figured out that's how it works there's no really more room for this innovation no absolutely not i think there's a lot of room for innovation and i think you see that most evidently when you look at the process of what does it take to buy insurance to buy life insurance kind of traditional process you sit down with a broker and he figures out what your needs are and he goes away and pulls up a quote comes back second meeting gives you a quote you know it's okay i want this benefit and that benefit to change it and they say okay that's what it's going to cost now you're fully in the application form it's paper and lots of pages get sent off to them to underwrite us a look at this and say okay but for your life now we need this blood test you need to get that doctor's appointment which we need to know where the healthy and you need to tell us more about how often do you fly and when do you dive and stuff you give them the information and get the test done goes back to them they say okay it's based on all the facts now your premiums a bit more than what we told you initially but because new facts have come to light then you say okay but now i want less cover um goes back to them the reinsurers have to say we're happy with the case and the whole process has got multiple handoffs between the broker and the underwriter and the admin person and the reinsurers or whatever and it takes a long time it can take up to six weeks to well as long as that to get to get a policy now i think the scary thing is when you work in the industry you're so used to that's the way it is but it doesn't shock you if you're used to ordering a uber now stop being five minutes or a bnb or buying something online and everything is instant i mean the example that i like to think of is that if you want to date you can go onto dating sites and get a date yeah you can attend uh you swipe right a couple slides but if you want to buy life insurance you go through this process um and i think that for me is the clearest example of the fact that life insurance industry has to evolve and will evolve um and i think that's why we think that that what we do will add value and i think in a couple of years time it'll it will be the norm that you can take out insurance on your phone a couple of minutes and have a quality product everyone will move there um so it's just about figuring out what's the best way to uh to get there it's it's weird because insurance is one of those things where you need to educate the consumer absolutely absolutely in a way that isn't depressing like i was reading through your ass and you and you like you saw talking about the i was reading but i was supposed the disability one yeah probably the one that i would make up and they're like okay y'all that was depressing and it it is quite yeah it's yeah i think we don't like to talk about date we don't like to talk about using our ass parts it's something interesting so the easy way to market it is to is to go along that route to say do you know one in every three people get cancer do you know there's a very good chance if you're spiking and die on the next ten years it's easy to use the skin tactic i think what our philosophy is that insurance is good insurance is a social good the fact that um if something happens to me my wife and my kids can get an income or as long as i would have worked to sort them out to i mean to i'll cover for them that is a very very good principle and the fact that everyone pays a small amount monthly and whoever are the unlucky ones that have to claim quickly can get this big payout so i mean it's really pooling of risks and and our community and everyone in the fund contributing together so that whoever has the bad luck is financially sorted by the product so that's a very good system i think the problem is that they it's such a act to get a policy to get through this process in order to get coming plus the products are so complex that i think they are actually in the market you don't understand how it works and that's just the beast that we've created because everyone tries to differentiate our product so adding features and there are some whistles and another thing that you need to decide on and do i want my premium to grow by five percent or five and a half percent but there's such a lot of features that you have to negotiate and there's no way that the client can know what's this yeah i mean it it becomes incredibly difficult to say someone like me if you're studying this stuff to compare to you you've got it it's especially impossible there's like you say this one's got an exclusion this one's got a premium this one's got a limit and you like unless you've got like a calcare and a model and then and there's so many that are offered out on the market then there's a little confusion yes which i think for some for some people that then just makes them just not make a choice that's exactly what i mean so that's exactly why our philosophies we try to keep it as simple as possible so we don't offer choice on our premium gross or what is the waiting period before disability product starts or when does it end or how long normally something stupid you have to decide do you want your rates guaranteed for five years 10 years 15 years 20 years old of love and you pay a different premium for each of those options but the guy on the street doesn't have a clue on what's based for him yeah and where he's making good choice and then exactly doesn't make a choice so on anything we i mean retail anything that you buy online there are too many points where you have to make decisions you just drop off you just y'all so our philosophy is being that we have designed our products and a process to be as simple as possible so you don't have to make unnecessary choices so we try to create something that's based for the majority and to try and cater for every single niche needs and to have a product with a contract of 200 pages which you've got all of this complexity that you need to try and understand so we try we intentionally keep our products as simple as possible but still delivering high quality that we ourselves buy yeah i think that's our motto we need to design because it's easy to design a crappy product that there's a list of exclusions you don't pay for but then you also have to ask yourself is there something that you'd buy yourself so we our philosophy is we created we create a product that we are happy to buy ourselves in the first place and then it should be good enough for for the market because i mean that's the thing i mean there's there's those stories of people who bought say funeral insurance and they've been screwed over because it didn't include this type of death and families are left cold so i know there's a lot of anger around the insurance industry and that's just one of the things the company like lemonade said that we're only going to make so much profit on each policy if there's any risk profit that we're going to make choose a charity and we're going to donate it to them and i see pineapple also want to try and go this whole transparent route saying we're also going to take just a sick fee and the risk gets kind of you know distributed to people and lower premiums going forward does indefense see that the need for transparency or limiting their own profit as an important component and if so how will they yeah i think transparency is massively important i mean just being and it's i mean something simple like making your engagement with clients and the questions that you ask making it easy to understand what are you asking them on your contract wording or when we chat to clients whatever having humans that talk human language as opposed to massively technical jogging so i think transparency is is in every part of the business not just in how much profit do we make and we've got articles we've got a section on our on our website with the list of articles on what is this benefit can i skip premiums and what happens if this happens to explain all the features one of our articles actually states how much profit now obviously you make a different amount of profit on different benefits but gives a gives a clarification of how much of your premium goes to covering your risk how much covers expenses and how much is left for profit and we're not scared to to to put that out there in life insurance obviously it's a bit different than short term because we need to build up reserve so so we need to keep some money back for the guy who's going to claim if we've just got five guys paying premiums and one doesn't claim that yeah we can't give all the money back because next year when someone claims you need you need to reserve and what's better but we absolutely believe that you have to be transparent in your whole business yeah and tell me have you guys gone live it's like can can you go you can go and buy yeah we so i mean so our strategy is that we so we need to introduce this brand indifferent to the market so our first radio ads started this week okay on kfm and i felt and you'll you'll hear when you listen to the ads also it's much more informal tongue-in-cheek it's it's a different kind of voice that we that we speak with uh so that's how this week we we obviously be optimizing our site in the process and everything the whole time because i think that's this kind of industry and offering a product in this on this channel digitally allows you to improve it as you see our clients interact with you and as you become aware of what clients want because at the end of the day i think if if you learn something and you leave and you say that's what it's going to be you're missing out so we are continuously making changes to how do you get to the quote screen how do we explain these features to you based on the feedback that we get and we're lucky that our clients so far have been willing to we've got a live chat for instance and they've been willing to tell us i don't understand this what do you mean yeah um for instance initially when you got to our quote screen yeah to choose what you want and if you if you went ready to buy you have to come through the process again you had to fully know you did this again and the client said but um i'd like to buy but i can come back tonight um can i can you save my progress was okay obviously that makes sense so we added that feature that you can save your progress and come back to it so we're adding features the whole time to try and make it a bit experience for clients and you don't have to answer this question it is sensitive but how many people have signed up so far has it been more than expectations or are you still behind yeah so so the way that we look at it there was different ways that we could do this from start so we could have the traditional way would have been to wait um hold the prototype get it out in the market and test it with people and make changes and play around until we believe it's optimal and then launch it but then you end up getting closer to that 12 month release cycle before you go out what we tell ourselves is we want to go out as quickly as possible we want to have that ability for someone to buy as soon as we sure that we've reached the minimum criteria um and that way obviously it takes longer to to build up clients because the first thing that you uh there's uh i think the guy from the founder of LinkedIn said if you are ashamed of your first version you waited too long to launch so i mean that's a bit of a cliche but we even now when we look back at what our process was like what our first great screen was like we think the actor said okay that was minimum um it's improved now and we know i mean a couple of weeks time again to have a better version already so so our strategy was to get out as quickly as possible despite the bring now is that we optimizing our process so what do you see when you land on the page how do we give you how do we explain what our products are how do we explain that to clients understand how do we um how do we show clients how to get a quote uh when they get to the quote screen what do they see there's a lot of that that we're optimizing at the moment we started our marketing campaign but i think we probably anticipated that in the next two to three months we would tell ourselves that now we're ready now we've done the we live we selling policies at the moment but i think in about two or three months time we'll be at a stage we're saying okay this first initial step of improving the product has been done and we're at a stage now where we can really send traffic there to uh to to see what happens because at the moment we can spend a bit on advertising see traffic coming through see what people are experiencing and then making improvements and and do it again so so we at that stage we we still getting i think getting our initial um offering optimized before before we can really open the the tabs and make a big well about it you're kind of using that whole actual control cycle that's exactly what it is exactly what it is exactly what it is exactly what it is the problem with the industry is because you've got legacy systems it takes it takes you 12 months to do that by the time that you launch you've got a new problem whereas we are really cognizant of the fact that we need it's all about getting the speed of that cycle quicker and giving a time time as much as possible because if you can if you agile you can move fast and improve it you've got a much better chance of being successful so that i think that is the key ingredient for us is getting an actual control cycle getting that to to work much quicker than what the what the norm is and who would you say is indifference biggest competitors like does all the mutual have some understanding in any case or are the startups what yeah who are you guys worried about we we haven't seen something like you know internationally that we think is great that we think is awesome and we think we'll copy everything we see features we see a nice feature here nice way that they do premium calculations or contract wording or time communication we learn from from different features we haven't seen one compelling offering internationally that we think is the golden standard in life insurance there's a lot of guys that do um very quick life insurance where you can buy in 30 seconds but then you buy accidental cover or cover with millions of exclusions so offering quality fully underwritten benefits online with a seamless process i don't know i haven't seen that yet i mean also i think our market still has to evolve for people to to go online to buy insurance themselves our market still has to has to grow into that and that might take years but that's why also it's important for us to get our distribution proposition out where and intermediary can sit with you and say well take you through the process and you can do a lot more yourself it's enabling clients to your child themselves because i think that's a modern client i mean for myself i want to i don't want to sit with the travel agent and let them send me quotes or flights i want to sit around and play and see okay if i fly uh what is the cost and how can i connect to another flight you want to be informed yourself yes you want to be in control of that have a real kind of thing okay cool i mean look it's listen i mean someone who's who's at university um studying actuarial signs i think most of my subscribers are very much in that situation um if they would you advise them to come to india for now or would you wait for or advise them to wait until they're working and getting this out no i mean so that's the thing that i wanted to say initially that i mean something like someone in someone who doesn't have debt it doesn't need a lot of life cover but the problem is that also that if you don't know the industry you don't need you don't know what products are based for you for instance if you just start working you don't have debt you don't have dependence all that you really need is to protect your income yeah um so so through our process when you tell us well i don't have dependence i don't have debt this is all i am this is what i'm earning we can help you to um when you when if you want when you get to the quite a great screen to say well in your situation it would make sense to take this benefit because you've told us this is your need you want to protect your income and this benefit does that exactly i mean i think anyone at university for instance doesn't need to protect it or whatever but i mean they might want the cover for cancer some serious illnesses because i think that's one thing we used to think that architects and strokes and cancer all that happens to all people i think everyone these days knows someone who's had cancer for instance i mean you might just want to buy some cancer cover um but i think what we're trying to do is not only sell products but also offer a lot of financial education because if people we we know that i mean there's no doubt about it that the level of financial literacy in South Africa is appalling and i think industry financial product providers needs to do more to to educate clients about what they need and what's the best and and just explain why do you need insurance out of work even out of interest work way to investing all of that like even base level of detail so what we also busy with and some of the articles are there already is information that just explains more around financial financial literacy almost um in a sense because i think if clients are more powered and are more knowledgeable they can make better decisions look i mean i think i've done very nice with the interview so i'm going to ask just one last question but um so i'm going to ask it but feel free to also add in anything else that you that you want to say or any last thing um but job where where do you see the future for for indefin what is the the grand vision is the vision to just stay in South Africa is it to go international is it to create an artificial intelligence that so the entire process is automated what what do you see the future is i think one of the things that i personally find most exciting about anything is that we don't know what we're going to be busy with in faith next year we sort of we look where we are now like two months ago we thought we would be working in different stuff now we really learn discover a lot as we go having said that our idea is obviously to be at the moment we offer life insurance is to offer the whole suite of financial services short-term banking investments ability to invest offshore whatever our clients want we want to want to develop and not just for the South African market i think a lot of the a lot of the principles about making products simple making it easily accessible taking the friction away is what you need wherever you want to somebody some country region specific stuff that you need to take into account but i think the philosophy that we use allows you to to to both products anyway that you that you can get the right partners so we're very excited about about and i mean while we don't know what this is going to be like in five years time we're very excited to do what it can become yeah okay no perfect thank you we do have the coffee shop asking us to pay the bill and get out of the place so we are going to end the interview there but thank you so much for coming and spending time with that yeah it's a pleasure enjoyed it cheers i'll just turn it off yeah