 Hello and welcome to the OIST podcast, bringing you the latest in science and tech from the Okinawa Institute of Science and Technology Graduate University. My name is Andrew Scott. This time I'm talking to the latest appointee to OIST's Board of Governors, James Higa. Mr Higa is an Okinawan-raised luminary of Silicon Valley, starting his career as a photographer before joining Steve Jobs as a member of the original Macintosh team at Apple. During his tenure, he spearheaded the music industry negotiations that allowed the iTunes software to exist and become the market leader. Laterally, he is the Executive Director at the Philanthropic Ventures Foundation, which aims to find practical solutions to society's most pressing issues via radical collaborations. He sits on the boards of several large foundations, as well as serving as an advisor to big business. I caught up with him during a visit to OIST in February. So just for people who may not be familiar with you, can you give me just a very quick overview of your career that's led up to this point? I was born in Indianapolis. My parents were studying in the US after the war. Came back to Okinawa when I was two, went and attended regular Japanese school. I was in about third grade, but my parents have wanted all the children to eventually go study in the US. English wasn't taking hold, so my parents sold everything. We went back to the US, to Indiana, to Indianapolis. Eventually came back because my mother ended up getting a teaching position at Kubasaki High School on base. So we came back, got into Stanford, did my undergrad there, and that was the beginning of kind of the emergence of Silicon Valley. I ended up joining a company with a funny looking rainbow logo called Apple and ended up working with Steve Jobs at Apple next, back at Apple for many, many decades. Yeah, I mean, I look back on the career at Apple, we were not trying to become a trillion dollar company. I don't think we had an inkling of that. We weren't trying to beat Microsoft, but what we were trying to do was to try to change the world. And the way we knew how to do that was to build these things that we thought were the best tools humankind had had at that point, called personal computers. And we would just try to build the best personal computers that we could. And in many ways I'd argue we did change the world and how people work and live and communicate and play, et cetera. And so after Steve passed away and I decided to leave Apple, the question I was asking myself was how can I continue on that mission to try to change the world, but more through people in communities rather than product and technologies. And I cast my eye about, and rather than join a very large foundation where my job would be putting on a text and schmoozing and fundraising, 24 by 7, I'm a builder at heart. I need to roll up my sleeves and to build things at the grassroots level. And so I found an organization called Philanthropic Ventures Foundation. The founder there is a legend in philanthropy in the Bay Area. So I think I went from a legend in tech to a legend in philanthropy and that's part of my time in life to get back and that's the philanthropic work. But I've been in tech all my life and it's been my love and my reward. And so I still have one foot in tech and work with VC firms investing on my own. I mentor and advise many companies, et cetera. So Silicon Valley is still near and dear to my heart and my work. You started out in the 80s as a photographer and now of course you've gone through the tech sector and come into philanthropy. Did you have any kind of like a path or a plan to where you are today or was it kind of more reactive in your approach? Well, I wouldn't say it was reactive, but there was no plan. I don't think anybody could have come up with a plan that says I'm going to take pictures, go into tech, go into philanthropy. I had no idea when I joined Apple that we'd be in a million years in the music business or in the mobile phone business. I think it had more to do with follow your heart and your passions. I'd love photography. That's how I was able to help pay my way through school. But because of that, I wanted to be a freelance photographer. I hated going to parties because all my friends were in investment banking or consulting and pulling down six-figure salaries. And they would give me the guilt trip about how I was wasting my education. But it was what I loved. And eventually that got me into Apple. Never thought we'd be in music, love music. So it's really more about follow your heart and follow your passions versus I've interviewed a lot of people for a lot of positions. I think most people come in chasing a brand. They want the logo on their business card or they want the title. And it's better to follow your heart and passion and see where that leads and walk through those open doors because I don't think you can plan the job that is going to be prevalent five years from now, 10 years from now, doesn't exist today. So there's no amount of planning you could do to try to anticipate that. So for the work that you're doing now based on philanthropy, was there a route that incited your interest in it when you worked in the tech sector? I would actually say it's probably not the tech sector. I mean, there's an element of the tech sector that is about trying to change the world for the better that translates straight across into philanthropy for sure. But I think probably my influences were earlier. Both my parents survived the battle of Okinawa, went to the US, came back. And the natural feeling, I think, is to hate and despise your enemy, the people who have destroyed and killed much of who you love and what you love on Okinawa, as an example. But in our house, we had Fulbright scholars coming through all the time. We had exchange students coming through all the time. We had people on the base coming through all the time. So I think seeing my parents turn what should have been hate and rage into love and acceptance, probably had a bigger effect on me to think about what does it mean that love truly is stronger and can conquer hate and rage. And thus we should all think about how we can do that work in the world. While philanthropy is certainly working at one end to kind of alleviate big societal problems, is there any one or a couple of big systemic changes that societies could make right now that would make a big difference to solving these problems? Yeah, I think there's a couple of things. I mean, one is really more mindset. It's not about kind of what techniques or if you bring management skill into philanthropy, it's going to fix things, et cetera. There is an element of how do you take advantage of the tech that's in the world in being able to look at, manipulate, see lots of information, communicate better, make more connections, all that helps. But I think the biggest thing is just the notion of what I call radical collaboration. So in the early days in the Macintosh group, we had Susan Kerr, who was a graphic artist, and people thought, what is she doing here? She's not an engineer, but the Macintosh desktop, as we know it today, was hand-drawn by Susan Kerr and working with engineers to try to bring that to life. As an example of radical collaboration of lots of different experiences and skills, and every creative endeavor I've worked at has that component of radical collaboration. And I think that's probably what's needed more than anything else because in the nonprofit world, the nonprofits tend to stick to themselves. They don't communicate with other nonprofits. You can't communicate failure to your donors. They don't talk to municipalities, to cities, don't talk to companies. And so I just think it's just more of the spirit of this opening up. And it may seem like you don't bring anything. You're an artist for God's sake, but come on down and let's get you into the mix and let's collaborate is the only hope we have at solving these big societal problems. Because a lot of these problems have been around for decades, and it feels like we haven't made it yet. And so doing things the same old way doesn't work. And my belief is that innovation happens at the edge of unreasonableness. You have to get to a place where it just feels unreasonable. And when you look over that cliff, you'll see the new landscape where in innovation, you need to go. And in order to do that, you need cognitive diversity, which means you need lots of different experiences and lots of different ideas, which means you need radical collaboration. So is there a particular philanthropic project that you've worked on recently or in the past that you're particularly proud of? And can you describe what that was? I would say it's not one thing. It's a program that we came up with about three years ago. I describe it as nonprofit as a service. And this is because I still work with a lot of startups and a lot of the Valley community. And when we get to talking to founders about the social impact they could have on their communities must have on the communities because you are a company, you exist in the world. You are having an impact in your neighborhoods, in your communities. And so what should you do about it? I got a lot of, we're too small. We're too busy. We can't create a 501c3. We can't make a difference. And to kind of get rid of all those excuses, I came up with an essence. If you know what a donor or vice fund for individuals is, this is like that but for companies. So our foundation is doing all the heavy admin and lifting. So you as a startup don't have to incorporate a board. You don't have to have quarterly meetings. You don't have to have the 5% payout. You don't have to do taxes, audits, they all roll up under us. The only thing you need to think about is how do I want to do some good in the world and who do I want to make grants to? And we do the rest. And that's really taken off. The last company that we've signed up is TaskRabbit. So it's getting to be both very small startups and very grown startups at this point. And it's about probably 20% of our revenue, if you will, donations in that sense. So I'm very, very proud of that. What role do you think do institutions like OIST have to play in philanthropy? Well, I just don't think that science and academia and philanthropy are not separate things. So it's in anything that is done, whether it's in research, whether companies are spun out, whether it's in the academic world. I think you have to bring an element of what is it that we do for the wider community and what can we do for the world. And the easiest things are the outreach that you guys are doing into the communities. To help our neighbors here in Okinawa, et cetera. But I think you just need to go deeper than that into every element of the research that you're doing of the science that gets developed, of the AI that gets looked at, making sure it has no biased algorithms in it, et cetera, and trying to apply it to do some good, I think is incumbent on all of us to try to do that. The difficult part is that it takes a lot of creativity and imagination to come up with the right idea. And I think that's where people struggle is not out of a, I think there is an inherent want and a desire to do that and do some good in the world. You just struggle with what is it that I can do? I don't see anything that I can do. And in my mind, it takes just as much creativity to think about that. As you do, putting in the time to come up with your products and your services. And if you do that, you'll come to this really interesting place and hopefully a new way of doing things. So what first interested you and OIST? How did OIST appear on your radar? I remember, I think during this inception, I did hear about it. And I think OIST did a very good job of kind of getting the word out into the wider, certainly academic community about the search for excellence that is going to happen here. So I remember during its early years. And I got to know your current president, Peter, through the Siemens Advisory Council, and really respected the work that he had done there and the peers that he brought together on the advisory council. So when Peter asked me whether I would consider OIST, I had to say yes. Is there anything in particular that you think that Silicon Valley has done successfully that Okinawa could benefit from? And likewise, what is Okinawa doing that could perhaps change Silicon Valley? Silicon Valley has figured out for a whole lot of reasons. It is the engine of innovation around the globe. And many people have read about it or they think they understand it, but few people have actually lived through it and understand the complexity of the ecosystem, the ethos of the people who are on the front lines trying to build these companies to try to change the world for the better. I mean, there's a lot of backlash right now, but I think fundamentally, a lot of the Valley is about how can I think about what I can do, what does the world need to solve some of the problems that we've been talking about. And so that spirit and that ethos combined with the academic community around Stanford and Berkeley and CSF and Santa Clara and San Jose State and Class Zone Institute, it was amazing kind of firepower or brainpower, if you will, and then a common ecosystem of lawyers and IP lawyers and tax people and VC funding. And so an understanding that it's very, very complex to build that kind of an engine and that has many, many components to it, but still fundamentally it is about unleashing the energy and the passion and imagination of young people who have nothing but an idea. Silicon Valley's genius is a place in the world that has the least friction towards new ideas. If you have a good idea and passion, you will get funded and you will get lawyers to help you and you will get accountants to help you and you will get engineers to help you and you will get professors to help you. And maybe that's another way of thinking about radical collaboration, but I think that's probably what, you know, OIST and Okinawa can learn from the Valley. I think the other way around is probably a number of things is, you know, every keynote presentation that Steve Jobs did at the very end, the last slide shows two street signs, the intersection of technology and the liberal arts. So we never thought of ourselves as a technology company. It was at the intersection of that and the arts, the liberal arts meaning the humanist movement. And people forget that. And, you know, it's the reason we love things like calligraphy is why we try to project that and display it on the screen. Like, why can't I see these beautiful fonts that I love so much on the computer screen. And it takes that. And Okinawa, to me, is a cultural mecca, in that sense, of Okinawan music, Okinawan dance, graphic arts, textiles, ceramics, and that whole spirit of those crafts and the creativity, the liberal arts element, if you will, because technology is not good or sufficient. You must bring beauty into the world with the technology. I firmly believe that. And one thing the Valley can learn more is how do you take the kind of beauty that you see here, both in the creative people here, but in the environment around us and marry that to the technology science and ideas. I think that's a critical component. And I think the other thing is, and it's not maybe Okinawa per se, but Japan in general, is the idea of collaborating, the idea of hospitality, omotenashi, the idea of working together as a group. And this is often cited where in the US it's about me and I'm going to lead the charge. And sometimes that's good. Other times you really need the group around you and you need to be able to work and empathize with people. And I think the Valley and the US is coming to terms with that. And everybody's realizing we want more diversity, we want more cognitive diversity, we need more cooperation to build that into the working environment. It's something that the Valley can learn from here. Is there anything about growing up in Okinawa and the Okinawan culture that has influenced the way that you approach your work? Probably two things. I think people can kind of look at the Okinawa way of life and think it's laid back and you're sitting looking at a beautiful beach in ocean all the time. And some people attribute the longevity to lack of stress, but it's also about being able to do the marathon. I mean, at least for me, the mentality here of I don't have to worry, like my friends, my family, my relatives, if I'm ever in trouble it's going to help me. It has helped me navigate through the stress and waves and chaos of high pressure projects and building companies. I'm just a lot calmer, I think, through that because of my experience here. And I think that's really been helpful. The other thing I think about often is I consider Okinawa to be one of the first knowledge workers in the world. If I think back to the Ryukyu Kingdom days, the Ryukyu Islands existed because of the knowledge of the people here about the way the courts worked in China. Knowledge of being able to speak the language is the reason that Okinawa became the gateway for Chinese trade. So Okinawa was outward looking, their whole economy was based on information and knowledge. And even post-war you saw a lot of immigration to Hawaii, to Brazil, etc. And so at least I took this outward looking ness and the curiosity about the wider world. And this notion of a tiny island survived all the big nations around it by sheer power of the knowledge that they were able to gain and manipulate has been a source of a lot of both inspiration and confidence. Well, I think in general, I mean, I've always said I'm a builder. And so my interest has always been this notion of real artist ship, meaning even Picasso as a genius needs to put a frame around his painting and hang it on a wall. And if you don't ship, it doesn't exist in the world, in my mind. So my interest is more is taking all the great things that are going on here and how do you be a real artist and have it take a life of its own in the real world, in the form of a company, in the form of a technology, in the form of a service, in the form of health care, energy, whatever. And so I'm more interested, not necessarily in the what is going on, but taking all the what's and turning it into the real world building, giving it birth in the wider world. One of the more famous, maybe philosophical exports of the Silicon Valley was the notion of techno utopianism. Is that still valid today? And if so, where can it take us now? I don't buy the techno utopianism. I think that's maybe people writing about it, write it about it that way, because all the folks I know, we're not blind, idealists. I think it's much more about optimistic pragmatism in that we know most technologies that get built have both a good and a bad potential uses. So it's much more nuanced than that. It's not about if we build it, the world will automatically become great. That has never happened with any technologies that we've seen. Even the printing press seemed like a good thing for the wider world, but for the Catholic Church turned out to be a horrible thing of priests not being able to intermediate God's message anymore. It's like individuals reading it and trying to reason it for themselves and have communication with God seems super disruptive. So even things like what we take for granted, like the printing press were very controversial in its inception. And I think that's the way most of the people I know in the Valley look at what they are trying to build is how do we build something plus how can there be a thoughtful view of we're going to lean into the pragmatic part of us that will want to take this idea, this technology and do good in the world, but also looking at what are the potential misuses of it and being thoughtful and careful about that as well. So I don't see it as a utopia dystopia issue. I think everybody's kind of in the middle and trying to thread that needle in the most meaningful way given that a lot of what we look at and a lot of what we think and a lot of the changes that are going to happen in the world is very hard to predict what the consequences are. Is there any particular science and technological developments that are happening relatively recently that have you really excited? Sure. I think everybody will give you the same answers about whether it's Dr. Yamanakis' IPS work or whether it's the rise of machine learning and AI or whether it's autonomous cars. I don't quite think of it in that kind of what category or what industry space is the latest hot thing to invest in as an example. I try to think much more systemically and look at kind of tectonic shifts of what's going on. So I'll give you an example is lately I've been thinking about this notion of it used to be that code writes data, the way we write software is we had a bunch of code that we write that is separate from the data and the code executes instructions on the data. It's kind of the last let's say 30 years of software. But the way I think about AI and machine learning as an example is it feels to me like we're starting to enter this world where that is reversed and data is writing code and they're not separate entities. They're intertwined if you think about how neural net and training works is the data you get the learnings from it feeds itself back, rewrites the code. It's a very different generative process. So and a very fundamental break between how we used to do things. So what are all the implications of an architecture where data is constantly rewriting the code, not the other way around. And I've just started thinking about this. I don't really have all the fully fleshed answers or anything. But for me, that's a more interesting question and more interesting kind of meta development, if you will, than any one small kind of AI algorithm or technology. Shifting a little and track a little bit. But as someone who's worked very, very closely in the music industry, what are you listening to at the moment? I am pretty all over the place, I think in music. And that's why I enjoy it so much. And my music tastes very from, you know, I still think Beethoven's Eroica symphony was a breakthrough in the way and the themes that symphonies dealt with in that time. So I will listen to that. I'm an avid SoulCycle writer right three times a day. So my instructors play me the best kind of EDM and pop music on the radio today. I was just at the Grammy show and love seeing Billie Eilish and Lizzo. Little Nass was excellent. Nass was BTS. As stretching all the way to I like a DJ named Reds, R-E-Z-Z. I think she was Palestinian American was doing DJ work in her garage and dead mouse founder. Now she plays to gigantic arenas, but has a really heavy bass kind of EDM type music that I find fascinating. And just to wrap it up, where do you like to eat in Okinawa? So when I saw my parents and they asked me where I wanted to go eat and we had some friends come along and they were thinking Italian or should we go for Japanese food and my answer straight away was Soki soba and Okinawa soba because that's the taste of home for me. So that's what I have for lunch and I'm extremely satisfied and extremely happy that I got my taste of home. Welcome home. Thank you. James Higa, thank you very much. Thank you for your time. Thanks for listening to the podcast. It was recorded and edited by me, Andrew Scott. Special thanks to James Higa. You can find out more about his organization, The Philanthropic Ventures Foundation at www.venturesfoundation.org. If you enjoy this episode, subscribe to get more as soon as we release them. And we always love to read your reviews, so why not let the world know what you think of the show? You can also find us on Facebook and Twitter or you can send us an email to media at oist.jp. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.