 Welcome back. Glad to know that you're still watching the run-up. Educational policies are initiatives mostly by governments that determine the direction of an educational system. A distinctive way in which the society inducts its young ones into full membership. So every modern society needs good educational policies to guide it in the process of such initiation. The poor performance of the education sector in Nigeria has become very worrisome. What exactly is the problem? Is the educational policy faulty or is it the implementation that is faulty? What are the implications for national development? These are the issues that we will be discussing today on the run-up. We'll be discussing today these things, like Uche has said, but we're being joined by an Nigerian Professor of Soil Science. I decided to start like that because it's a household name now. He lectures at the Michael O'Para University of Agriculture, Mudike. He is also the National President of Academic Staff Union of Universities ASU. I'm sure you have guessed by now that we are pleased to welcome today Professor Emmanuel Osodeke. Welcome to the program sir. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. Let's just begin with the attorney issue. What's the state of things between ASU and the federal government now, especially after the October salaries? Professor Osodeke, yes? Yes. Well, since that strike was called off, there's no promises, nothing has happened. Hello sir, we don't seem to hear you. The strike was a problem, strike and so on, which is okay, which is actually the case. Nothing has happened against it, we cannot apply. Even the talk, no meetings, the co-supermitter was set up by government, they have dismissed, they dismantled it, so nothing has happened. We parents, we brothers and sisters, we Nigerians are worried that there might be a relapse into what happened in the eight months or so inside this year. Are we looking at that or are you finding alternatives to solving the problem? What Nigerians should do, if you remember, the National Assembly, the speaker met with us indicating that they have agreed on XYZ things for a new basis we call off the strike. So Nigerians should put pressure on them to implement those things they said, they made promises, they don't permit, that's what resolving strikes. So they should do those things, they promise, pay back the backlog salary, finish the negotiation, pay any criminal allowances, use utas. Don't let them think we are agreed on, but today they have burdened everything in. So Nigerians should talk to their leader, people they elected to do what they need to do. We're trying to make emphasis here, and of course judging from the last statements that you made about Nigerians, you know, putting pressure on people in government to carry out their promises. But then, if you had only takes, what would be your dream university system? What would you be expecting? How would you think or how would you want the Nigerian university system to be like? You see, what I want Nigerian university to be like, any other university in the world, a university is universal, it's not about locating. Do what others are doing, and what are they doing? I'll give you an example. In West Africa, the least country budgetary allocation to education is 60%. That's the least. But Nigeria is 5.9%. And look at some starting amount of your budget to education as well, as well done all over the world. But give only 5.9%. That's the problem. Two, I like university to run on their own, to run. Not you have interference from office of a counter-general, interference from the office of the head of service, interference from national assembly. Those are the problems we have today. Let the university run, give them their budget and allow them to run their money. Not the money of the university being run by the counter-general office. No salary of a professor in the university being paid for a counter-general office. Those are the crises we have today. And any day the government have the will to ensure that the university are allowed to do as it was done in the 60s and 70s. There will be no problem. Well, whenever discussions are held between government and ASU and all that, the issue of autonomy doesn't seem to be like the foremost thing. How much autonomy do you really need in the university? Because when you talk about financing the university and letting the universities run their finances as they please. What about generating the finances from within the university and not even relying on the government again? Do you also consider that as part of being autonomous? Can we mention one university in the world owned by the government that is financed solely by the universities? There is none. It depends on how the money gets there. So that is the problem. So when I hear this autonomy financing, when you say autonomy, we are not saying the government is to run it through the agency they have appointed. Which is the governing council. The federal government, the president inaugurated the governing council to run the university on its behalf. What we are saying is let that council run the university and manage the fund coming to the universities. That's what we are saying. So also the students are paying their dues. Everybody is paying. The structure you have in the law, there is a law. Every university has a law that tells you who should manage the fund. And the fund is managed by the finance and general purpose committee of the governing council. So the president appointed the chairman of the governing council. Let that chairman, you appointed, you have trust in run the university and then report to you. And every five years you set up a panel to probe the university. What they are not be doing. That is what the law says. And that's what we said, the government should be made the law that they have passed, that is in place. In the university, there is no room for head of service. In the university, there is no room in the law for a counter-general to intervene. There is none. So I'm not the rough ass by the law you are already in place. Alright. What exactly does the education sector need? Because for the purpose of this conversation this morning, we are looking at actually education generally in Nigeria. What would you say the education sector needs? Of course, we are going to be looking at tertiary education, which you rightly represent. But then for the incoming government, because we are looking at 2023, there is going to be general elections. Of course, power is going to change hands. What would be your expectation for the education sector for the incoming government, from the incoming government? Well, my uncle is a local government, state government and the federal government. You saw the case you were showing. Classrooms where students are sitting on a bad floor. Classroom where they used to be grown up and nobody is interested. So that is it. In the 60s, 70s and 80s, if you look at a typical government, it attracts people to go to their children and die. But today, because they have been able to remove their children extracted and taken abroad, they are no more interested in the educational sector. Go and check. I was in a state, a local government, where you hardly see a vehicle moving on the road, and the governor is building a flyover that will cost more than 20 billion ERA. But all the primary school and secondly that local government, none is in such a way that any right-ticking man will send his children. And if you put 10 billion ERA in those students to second this primary school, it will transform all of them in the interest of the people. But that government is no more interested in building a flyover. That is no use. You build a flyover when you have so much traffic and you have a problem. But today you have a beautiful flyover in a village, all the primary secondary schools are all dead. You see the misplaced priority. That's a problem. Any day you will not see government putting priority in education because there is no country where education, primary, secondary, are dead, as you see today. Or they have been taken over by the primary sectors. That is the crisis we are having. You are seeing what you are showing. These are children of people who have 30,000 ERA amounts of minimum wage. They have no options. When the children grow up and look at the inconsistency in the system, look at what they have passed through. You now have the state of 50 security you have today. That is what the government should look at that. By asking, by installing the solution, the solution is giving the children, the average children, the children of the poor, access to standard education as you have all over the world. What you do then, you solve the problem of security. But as long as you keep on what you are doing so, ensuring that children sit on the floor, come to school with bare feet, and what have you, no lunch, no breakfast, will have a problem. So I spread the next government. First, the government should allow local governments to go. Today they have been seized. They have been captured by the governors. They should release them. They are allowed to put at least a few feet or 20 percent of the budget in education, primary and secondary, and ensure that the system grows. That is where we need to go to. Okay, let's just re-emphasize what these low funding to universities especially has cost. What is it that is the marked lack in the university because of this poor funding? Can you just describe the situation for us in the Nigerian universities right now? I will bring up a few examples. The first generation university, which is the first set of universities that were the best in the world in the 70s, 80s. You know what we saw? They were used to as bonds in Bonner. As low as that. That is the problem. No facilities, no laboratories. In the 60s, 70s, people were coming from Saudi Arabia for medical treatment in the University of Ibadon Teaching Hospital. Today, how many people want to go to that state hospital? Because they have to finish it, provide money for infrastructure, provide money for laboratory equipment, send people out or within for proper training so that those places will run very well. And you don't say our president jetting out every once every once as regular as possible. They go to our hospital and get treated. That is what we want the next president who will go to Nigeria. One, to have his children in Nigerian universities, to have his grandchildren in Nigerian universities to ensure that when he is sick, he goes to a hospital in Nigeria. They should upgrade the system. And the most damaging part is this. If you listen to Cetra Bank, we are spending trillions of Naira as school fees in other countries. In other countries to develop their universities. There are colleges over there, colleges and her system. When we don't, and nobody is coming from those as students. That is the classes we are having. So anytime you want to go to that state hospital, that is the classes we are having. So anytime you watch out between September, October, November, there is a heavy increase in exchange rate between Naira and Dola. And you know why? Very simple. The people are looking for hard currency to pay their school fees abroad. So any day we stop we develop our universities. So the people from Kenya, from Nigeria, from Australia as used to be in those is come to Nigeria as students. University with money, hard currency. When you now have the laboratory that are working, the system that is working. Cozotansi will be there. Coming like Shell, Dango Teako will be coming to the University for Cozotansi in such a way that they also generate funds. And that is why we are talking about need assessment. That was the idea. And we told the government, if you can put 1.3 trillion Nigerian universities then we will get to such a state that all these big companies will be coming to the University for Cozotansi. You must have students coming from abroad to universities. That is what we are saying. What is your level of engagement with the people who are aspiring to become leaders tomorrow? Because we have seen so many groups in Nigeria, Editors Guild even the religious groups and so many other groups engaging the people who are trying to become leaders of tomorrow in Nigeria tomorrow to set an agenda sort of. But we have seen ASU be silent. I don't know whether there is a reason to that, that you are not engaging them now that they are still trying to enter so that you get results when they do enter if they enter. Well, at the appropriate time our own ideas we want to engage and we have not agreed to is that we must engage all of them as a group not on individual basis. We want a debate all the candidates are fallible then we will have a discussion with all of them let them tell all of us in the presence of all the other candidate what they intend to do not what we have seen today we go to somewhere they say one thing they go to another they say another we want something that can be documented all the media houses will be there then they will be there all the candidates and we have 5, 6, 8 hours of discussion let them tell Nigeria what they want to do that is what they don't want to people are dodging. Interesting. What about the fighting within well maybe that's not the right word to use but you have ASU are you now relating as brother sister or you are still two parallel bodies running the university how is the relationship between ASU and Konwa? That's why we don't know what is called Konwa they were used as an engine of sabotage to see that they can break the strike That was what they were useful they were just used well thank God it has backfired that Konwa want to go to court against the government you see they use you and dump you when we on strike they were forcing them they have backdone them they want to go on strike because they have not been paid but they were probably paid as soon as they allowed them to be registered to sabotage ASU struggles so that is it as far as Konwa as far as Konwa so we don't have parallel group we don't have struggle nothing they make noise there's been a lot of conversations come up you know for a while now how that Nigerian graduates are unemployable I know you've made a lot of points about how things are not going well in the university system but then every year graduates are turned out thousands and thousands of them in the NYIC camp these people eventually fill the labour market and they are out there looking for jobs and yet people still say they are unemployable I don't know what you have to say about these particular statements that has besieged Nigerian graduates for years that they are unemployable how do you react to that you see this one will be saying we are under 20 years create the environment where these children will have good education good laboratories good training and then they can go out and look for jobs all over the world and they will be employed but let me give you that that is not completely correct even with little we have today our doctors are living you are aware being employed in UK all over our engineers are living our lecturers are living being employed because of the tenacity of the academics you have that they try to give them the best they could even with the very poor environment is there no country is there a country where they take lecture from window any country where we are using 100 students using one microscope how will they get the best so when we make the environment favorable for the students we will have the best we will create avenue create jobs create opportunity for them they can go over the world and send money and portrait hard currency home that is what we are saying build your university build your laboratories don't allow see them hanging from window don't allow the two children sitting on the floor how many people have you seen studying with their children doing vocation in Nigeria but if they are doing vocation in any country you see them hanging around them let us we have the brain go all over the world there is no university in the world you know see Nigeria there is no country in the world you know see Nigeria doctors working there is no country in the world you know see Nigeria engineers all over the country all over the world so it's not the brain it's the environment and government should ensure the environment because such a way no matter the sacrifice this government could go to make such a way that our university system will become the best in the world compared to any polytechnic in the world our colleges for education will compete with any college in the world that is what we want not what we are doing today and even with this poor funding there are so busy proliferating universities the job to establish two new universities in Karno state another one in Nigeria all over the country when you say you don't have money to fund the one you have why are you creating more I'm just wondering all the problems that you have listed and the ones we've been hearing over the years seem to be on infrastructure and so many other physical things what about the curriculum of the curriculum nowadays in universities and in schools generally are you comfortable with what you're using now because some people have said that we've gone past that age of the curriculum that is being used whether it is secondary or secondary education or primary education what are you doing as academics to revamp these curricula that we've been using what they are saying is we are dodging the issue they are dodging the issues you don't have environment talking about curriculum even if you have the best curriculum you don't have the I think the internet is breaking the audio seems to have lost the audio and then the system to go set a set up a system that allow people to come from all over the world to teach as we are going in and out many of us we also have a different relationship so it's not about curriculum it's about the environment when the environment writes when you go to that university you don't have the same curriculum like you have seen today it's not done anywhere universities develop its own system develop its own program you have to know how to be a general for universities but today it is just it is just to create an environment to leave the issue leaving the issue and discovering the consequences that's what we are having today a lot of the conversation has somehow placed all the blame on the table of the federal government how there is poor funding no infrastructure and no increase in payment for lectures understood but do you not think that do you think that there are things that could also be done by the university system itself to help improve themselves are there other things in your house that you need to put together to at least help or ameliorate some of the things that you are going through by yourself what are the things that you think can be done differently by the university system aside from everything that is expected to be done by the federal government well for weeks to go there the first thing first is allow the university to run let me give you an example a university want to build a two bedroom toilet are you following me he must go to the ministry to get approval to build he must go and hire a consultant from outside the universities he must go and get a contractor from outside before he can build that building where you have all those set of human being within the system so most then any money that I will come to the university including grants the money must go to TSA and for you to get money from TSA is almost impossible so how will they work when their house are left to be tied or they are forced to go to the TSA to get their permission even grants that are coming from it they don't have to fund universities because no serious grant-giving body what are the money to pass through that procedure they would well get grants so we want to say again allow the university to run let me also give you an example of human life every year are you hearing me? every year that university spend 1.7 billion naira on diesel 1.7 billion naira on diesel but what if that university get from federal government as fund for running the universities is 1.15 million a year 1.15 million in a year but spend 1.7 billion on diesel alone the difference of 1.5 billion naira after what the government are giving how do they generate it that is what the university are doing they are running on those costs so it's not correct they try to pay salary that's what they are doing but all of that cost electricity internet service computer all of them are run by the system idea to generate fund within but we see that those funds you generate must go to TSA now people will come and say you must pay 25% of that amount to the federal government account when the university become fund agency you can check but if you get X amount of money you must pay 25% to the government financial account is that how universities are run I don't know what to say let the university run their own the government provide fund and go to the university to augment what they are generating and run it perfectly not going to put that fund into what they call TSA that is not what has happened anywhere in the world for you to get that money become a problem some people still don't understand what this utas is all about because one of the problems that arose from this your discussion with the federal government was that they refused to use the utas and they were using something else and they stood that it was a universal thing that they were using for everything else why is the university system supposed to have these special payment platform so to speak try to explain to us please look at the loss the university created very well by any document any circular call for the ministry are known as far as crime to the university because of their loss we federal government say they want to pay NNPC using IPPIS are they pay national assembly using IPPIS these are agency created by law are they pay central power using IPPIS these are agency created by law just a university created by law also a law university to run by law not because I am appendage of the ministry that is what we are saying and what we have created is so that it will handle all these issues as I am speaking with you many of my colleagues are CBO 20 month salary omitted by IPPIS as I am speaking with you the consequential adjustment of minimum wage in our university here more than 40% of our members have not been paid now you have all these things all over the country they call the problem by IPPIS and for you to correct it they say come to Abuja and you see professor 100 of the people before a clerical officer to correct those things and you go back he is not corrected use your money where does that happen in the world so we have developed a system for this country that is free the IPPIS they pay a dollar to a federal company on just how to pay salary in the country you say you are broke you do not have money but you can generate money you are paid to a private company outside on just the simple method of paying your worker salary but we are giving the free one and they are telling stories because some people very likely have special interest in the IPPIS that is our problem so Utah is a gift we are one to give to the government and we hope the next government will look at it and accept it as smooth of payment of salary which is the least thing of in the country not going to hire a foreign company to tell you how to pay your salary and we give all the data to the staff and give to those foreign companies it is not done anywhere professor can you hear us are you there I am hearing you ok so there is being a lot of you know schools of thought have come up to say that there is being back and forth within the university systems about how lecturers lecture in too many different schools at the same time and this has you know cost a lot of damage to the students in the sense that these lecturers because they lectured in too many different places they do not have the time to focus and give the students their best how do you react to that you see there is no part of what we hear this country where people talk you just talk without evidence by the law of any university no lecturer can do visiting in more than two universities by NUC guideline there are distance you should not go beyond when you are doing visiting that is what the law says so how many of our colleges have been caught going outside this road that have been disciplined that is who I am saying if anybody has been caught disciplined they are not generalized that is what I took before you can go for visiting or whatever you get the permission of universities so how many have been caught so that is what we are saying that we should be talking with evidence not just saying a lecturer doing this I am not if there is any please cash that person his committee fractions and let the system deal with him not generalizing too as part of the measure to help the system function very well and if there is a fraction they are there to it our law says that every five years the federal government, the president of this country and visit to universities must set up a shop panel to each university to audit the universities look at the finances, look at the staff in the development, look at all the things you are talking about and make recommendations for the system to properly deal with the universities we have to go on strike after 11 years before the government agreed to set up that panel the panel was set up in February 2021 where December 2022 the report on that panel is now also that you can distribute those who did the fractions and please do well does it take two years for a report of a panel to come out and you take issue to correct the anomalies so that is it it is we who are working at the academies that have to force government to come and investigate the system is that how it should be so we are doing our own but the government has to do it's own just with the white paper on your audit report in the universities you refuse so who do you blame sir do you have an internal do you have an internal mechanism of disciplining these people because now that the schools are open you have called off the strike if you are going on strike again that's another issue but for now that you have called off the strike there are reports from students because you are talking about evidence there are reports from students of some lecturers maybe asking them too much maybe I don't want to use the word extorting them but that is almost like what it is now in schools you have a mechanism to check them so that they keep the integrity of the lecturers let it not be that ok because we went on strike and we called off the strike and the government is not doing anything we can do the way we like and like you have said auditors are not likely to come maybe in the next 10 years we can do what we like do you have any mechanism to check them to check your colleagues that they should not overdo it what I am saying what I am saying this is assidualization ladies today name those who are doing it you are journalists there is one that refers to as investigative journalism say people there unknown to the system let them take and name somebody that's what we are saying you know this generalization it doesn't work in the system my question is if a student wants to name the people if a student wants to name the people or the parents wants to name the people who do they name these people to who do they report these people to that is what I am asking do you believe there is a student that has evidence where does he report I have said as a staff of this university where I am I have chaired the seswa the harassment the institution we have chaired the committee so that people can make their report we will open the boxes we will sort it and actually what we refer to as ethics committee students ethics committee that we expect them to report to and then you report and we take it from there you mentioned visiting lecturing how effective is this visiting lecture I for one I am out of school but it is not useful in this faculty we have box can you hear me professor every you go for staff sometimes people say it should not be a generalized issue you journalists you do it before I don't know now say somebody who act as students let it go to the university and do your and catch somebody not this generalization where they say harassment this thing what we are saying journalists in Nigeria our colleagues in the journalism please do investigate the journalism before you make your report say somebody in the system who will pretend to be a student let it give you a report that is what you do in other advanced countries what you are hearing is correct not this thing you hear in the public this is instruction in my university we have sacked a number of people and I have checked a number of them people who are misbehaved we have professor it is good you are saying this but I tell you for a fact that that investigation that you are talking about has been done by a lot of people but the kind of things that you have set up in your university does not exist in other universities in a lot of other universities so that even if you make this finding the only time you can talk about it is like we are asking you right now so that you say it or you debunk it or you tell us the right thing to do because you cannot go and report to who is not existing you have a ethics committee set up in your university they don't exist in every other university and I tell you some of us who are media people have children some of us have done these investigations and I found out that some lecturers I am not saying all of them but some lecturers are really really making it difficult for the students and the students seem to not have a place or an avenue to go and report or to go and say some things because if you do that it might end you want to have so if you have this ethics committee please it would be good enough to make sure it is in every university and the students know and they know also that they are confident enough that whatever they do there is anonymity there is protection for the person who brings their information so it's good but it's not there in every university you should know that every campus you know we have our own ASU, ECTIS and a committee you know the universities but we don't have the financing but we can take it from there to the system but what we are saying if you say lecturer is doing this and that publish to the public show it to the public let the public know that particular lecturer and then that person is there that's it you remember what happened so let's see it I don't like generalization because there are two or three criminals in Nigeria there are two or three bandits in Nigeria there are a number of these in Nigeria and you say Nigerians are bandits Nigerians are thieves is that correct say this one is a criminal you don't say Nigerians are bandits Nigerians are kidnappers it's not correct just because you have one or two or three of some kidnappers in Nigeria you say Nigerians you go to USA and Nigerians are kidnappers is that correct professor let's talk about visiting lecturing how effective has it been what's your success story because there's also been reports especially among students that mostly visiting lecturers do not pay attention what that literally means is that they are in and out of no consistency some come in and you don't see them until the next two months how do you react to that conversation what do you have to say about it like I said earlier that if visiting lecturers about our system you should not go beyond more than two universities at a time with permission from your system and two by any sort of regulation there is a distance you cannot go beyond what they stated but what was it visiting lecturers is let me explain it you have a department and you have a specialized university maybe electronics engineering that is teaching a course and but I say that may resign or dies or whatever and there's no way to teach that course it is that course that that university go around neighboring university against somebody in Nigeria that will come and teach that course alone teach that course alone that's it that is visiting visiting lecturers is not a full time lecturer you come to teach a specialized course for which that particular university you are come to didn't have a specialist to do that course or doesn't have a specialist to to supervise students to do a P.A.D or visiting it is not a full time job I think that should be clear okay well professor at this time since you said Nigerians should pressure their representatives on the government to do the needful we just want to reemphasize that just talk to Nigerians because you can't have everybody being on the other side and not be on your side so let Nigerians know specifically the things they can do to make your job easier because it's all of us that have the children there brothers and sisters are there everybody is affected if tomorrow our future is bleak because of the way our education system was treated so just talk generally to the Nigerians and to the government with this opportunity that we have now to wrap up this segment please let me put it this way my members are back to the university and you can go around and they are working hard working late do all they could do to cover the background the backlog of what they did do when they were strike you can check that doing exam doing 221, 221, 222 trying to cover all the backlog so that sacrifice their lives sacrifice whatever they have to ensure that they cover the backlog that's what they are doing in every federal university and state university that were on strike you can go and check and you will see that but the government came up to say academic no work, no pay when people are busy doing those jobs now we have an option to say no pay, no work, no work, no pay in which case we tell the university to assume that let's cancel 2020, 2021 2021, 2022 and start in 2022, 2023 all those people you have admitted let them go wait, go and take jam again and come over interest and our feeling for Nigerian people and their children we are doing these 12 we should have done making all the sacrifices but the federal government is insisting that they will not pay cover, they want to do nothing, casual workers Nigerians plead at P to the government to avoid other complications in the very near future that they should pay all those backlog the negotiation we are going that we have written an agreement let government come and sign that agreement all that they are paying several years of academic allowance they should pay so that there will be peace in the system let them also release the white paper of the shepherney report to universities so that don't even have misbehavior where those who will be punished and sanctioned so that the state will move away that is our P to Nigerians my people have suffered they are teaching the state evening doing all sort of work coming on weekend to ensure they meet up with the backlog and somebody is saying no work no pay please at P to those you were elected to do the needsful in the interest of our children in the interest of Nigeria as a country this giant of Africa to behave really like the giant of Africa ok well thank you so much Professor Sadeke some of these questions I am sure you have answered them on several occasions but we needed to say them first hand and all that and it's good that your people have returned to classrooms we are hoping it will stay that way but the government needs to do what they have to do so every Nigerian is concerned and we will say what we need to say but you also just keep your promises God will help us in this country thank you so much for coming on the show today thank you, have a nice day yes sir ok it's really heated but I would have wanted him to throw more light on that visiting lecture thing because you can't I wasn't satisfied with the way he answered that question because I was in school too the operational word and visiting lecturers no it's not nice the operative word that he used was supposed so they are supposed to be lecturers that's why I said do this and that but that may not be what the lecturers are doing so what happens if you are trying to make an alternative for students to have their lectures even after their lecturer resigned or lost his life then be it properly how do you come teach one course teach the course, teach a topic off of a course and then you disappear for the next two months and you return again and you give a test and next thing we are writing the exams what do you expect? so this just exposes the fact that a lot of lecturers are just recalcitrant it's not because they are visitors somewhere else or they are doing something that is running foul to the law and how do we catch them first of all we need to find out what that law that talks about visiting is and then know where to report to like he said in his school there are boxes but there is only so much you can do as a student otherwise you will be sent home or you will be so uncomfortable in that school that you cannot know what touched you so they should make it a bit more easy for us but anyhow it is it's been really an eye opener talking to professor I think at this point we should just take a break and take the news and then when we return other things about our superpower agencies that are arresting and convicting people will come up stay with us please