 All right, so this is meant to be a discussion. It's a core conversation. So I hope this session will be very interactive But I do want to kick it off with a few slides There's a couple of things that I didn't A couple of survey results that I didn't share in the keynote because it was too much and I've actually some more things to share I'm gonna share some more here, but I will also be sharing more on my blog But one of the questions that we asked is You know if people contribute to a Drupal yes or no and of the people that answer the survey you can see it on the screen It's really small here, but 765 of those people were contributors And then there was a question whether their volunteer or paid contributors and You know, you can see the results there. Some people clearly checked both They're both paid and volunteer because otherwise the math wouldn't work But you know, I think it's I think it's a great number actually and it also actually suggests that the survey may have some participation bias Right. I mean people a lot of the people that Checked or filled out the survey have checked that they're also contributing All right, I can't even read this from here or from So I think this shows the roles. Is that right? Sorry, it's too small on my screen and I can't read it sideways from this angle So I'll just I'll just let you you read it I believe when I looked at it earlier said things that roughly half of the people You know I'm sorry. All right. These are the different roles. Okay, never mind And so I think it's also important to recognize that, you know, there's many many ways Of contributing and so when people feel down that they're contributing Could mean contributing to core to contribute or helping with events You know organizing user groups, you know all of these things and so first of all I'd like to thank all of the people that contributed and I know many of you are in the room So thank you for This is also an interesting graph which originally had I had put in the key notes But we've done these surveys with every major release of Drupal and so we did one in 2008 2011 and 2016 and Consistently across all of the surveys we asked the question whether you get paid To contribute and to work with Drupal or if you're doing it in your spare time as a hobbyist and one of the things you see is that over the last eight years You know, we've lost a lot of hobbyists basically or they got hired or the hobbyists became You know Non-hobbies, but even so there should be an inflow of hobbyists, I would say and so I think what it shows is is kind of a Maturation almost of the community where more and more people are doing Drupal professionally As as we probably all recognize it's at least partially driven by Drupal kind of becoming more powerful more flexible and therefore also Less easy, you know to use less accessible for people that just want to want to do things quickly. I think the other thing I would say on this slide is that You know when when I started Drupal and to some extent still in 2008 There weren't as many You know software as a service solutions available. I also like even if Drupal stay as As simple if you will as it were in 2008, I still believe this number would have gone down dramatically given Like tools like Squarespace and the likes are just you know better alternatives in many ways for hobbyists So all right, so barriers to contribution All right lights already Unplug it for a second it makes it easier Sorry One day you will tell stories about that Remember how these already walked up on stage and set up and we were still pulling together slides Sorry, it's fast forwards Here is a slight So this is a slight from the from the survey and so one of the questions Was around you know barriers to contributions? What is what are your frustrations with the with the contribution process? Maybe a little hard to read actually but The first two bars the ones with You know with the most points if you will are You know bugs and patches aren't being reviewed quickly in the queue So people being frustrated with that taking a long time and then also roughly half of the people a half of the contributors That answered this question They also said that the issue queue is too complex and that there's too much consensus building so these are the top two bars and the colors are what contributors answered About the process and what everybody answered about the process even those that are not contributing So, you know, they may still have an opinion based on what they hear And so you can see the results are fairly consistent GitHub was actually only number five on the list. I think Is that on there? And actually also interesting that was one out of seven people or something said there's no challenges with contributing whatsoever Liars So in addition to that We also did another we also did another things we created this contributions barrier assessment and it's Outside of the survey as I mentioned and we we worked with the core Committers and the core mentors and other people and we asked them what are the barriers for contribution? And so we identified over a hundred of those All right, and we put them all in a spreadsheet and then we evaluated them each Based on a number of criteria Specifically impact like how what is the impact of solving this barrier to contribution? And then how difficult is it to fix the barrier? And so we can then hopefully find the ones that are easy to fix with high impact And so you see a little screenshot of that here And of course the idea is that for each of those we're gonna create an issue in the queue So we can have conversations about them and work together on on solutions And so we will share more details about this. I think I don't know In the future All right, so I want to talk a little bit more about these things I Combined these two top items into into this And I want to talk a little bit about some of the things we've already done I mean, it's hard to read from here, but Yeah, so one of the things we started doing is The RTB CQ is something that we now watch very closely in the past Sometimes issues would sit in the RTB CQ for a long time But now the core committers It's almost like a daily routine if you will to go over the RTB CQ and to make sure it's pretty empty and You know, I feel like the team has done an incredible job at that Yeah, thank you Also governance is something That I've definitely spent a good amount of time on in the last year. And so we We've been evolving our governance process and as you probably know one of the things we've done is we clearly identified different roles like a product manager role Release manager framework manager and subsystem maintainers and I think that helps in the decision-making Thank you, Angie, I can actually see the slides So yeah governance process So that actually is also very helpful because you know when it comes when an issue is stuck in bike shedding I think it's now much more clear who can make the decision on how to unblock the The issue it's something we've been doing. We've also been making improvements to automate automated testing infrastructure That includes JavaScript testing that we recently added thank you Drupal Association Now we just need to write a whole bunch of JavaScript tests Which we don't have a lot of yet But the JavaScript test will be critical Because you know even in my keynote I started showing some You know vision mock-ups using outside in and using much more application like behavior and More likely than not we'll see more and more JavaScript You know in core and so having these tests is is very important for us to to be able to do that In addition to that we're also able to do testing against multiple platforms now and so we have You know multiple different databases I scroll different versions postgres even You know non real, you know non my squirrel databases Also php7 and so I think it's six combinations or something that we can use now To test against which is which is pretty awesome and then also in that is we've been working on Or work is underway on being able to check sort of the coding standards in an automated way Which will also be very helpful to speed up the patch review process and as you guys know we have a lot of different rules around coding standards And so being able to automate that will help everybody And then last but not least I think the initiatives also really help because An initiative creates focus and I think some of the frustration happens when somebody uploads a patch that You know they believe is a great idea, but nobody else truly cares about and you know, obviously that patch will end up sitting in the queue but if we have Initiatives and we you know articulate sort of where we want to see contribution Happen hopefully when people do contribute something along these strategic initiatives These patches will be reviewed more, you know faster, so I think focus helps So that's good news too Next slide Core mentoring is also critical and deserve its own slight The core mentoring program has now trained hundreds You know thousands of people really there's hundreds of mentors all around the world And what they do is they help people contribute and in that process they help them overcome all sorts of barriers Same same thing this week at the sprint. So if you're stuck on a barrier Don't be afraid to ask for help there will be core mentors and they can help you overcome these barriers So again big. Thank you to all of the mentors the sprint organizers the sprint leads I think all of your work is critical in in helping people feel comfortable with contributing to Semantic versioning also talked about it in my key notes, but the idea that we can You know keep innovating is I think it's very exciting at least a lot of people I talked to this week That was one of their highlights even though I feel like we've talked about it multiple times But the fact that they see it in action that they see that we shipped Drupal 8 Point one on time and with new features got a lot of people excited And then in addition to that if you look at some of the this image is a little more detailed But what you see Effectively is that once we open or you know start the beta process We already open the next branch and so the red line if you will or red bar is it's kind of like continuous Meaning Drupal is always open for people to You know to contribute patches and for us to accept patches so I think it's Something that the team also really spent a lot of time thinking about and revising like how do we manage all of these? branches, and I think Very pleased with the way came out and how it's working. So That will also help with that issue Then we're also planning to do, you know a bunch of things in the future. So one of the big topics of This Drupal con is that we're you know working on a new planning process for initiatives And I talked a little bit about it in my keynote with planned initiatives Or proposed planned and active initiatives And we're not doing that just for initiatives, but we're making similar kind of You know changes for you know features and usability and design process like I think in general we're trying to move the Drupal Community to be you know a little bit mature more mature development process And I think that's really important because Often what happens is people spend sometimes weeks or months building a feature And then people come in and they say why are we even doing this thing? Right? And so sometimes that means You know these these things get blocked and so if we can do more Planning up front and have you know sort of sign-offs along the way that avoids that things people spend a lot of time doing something and That work them being kind of wasted Right so the the whole idea of the process is not to do necessarily more planning, but to avoid the people spend time doing things which will never you know make it into core and the same thing with You know with UX for example. It's something where we Frankly have been lacking process. And so it's really important that we introduce better process around these things again Especially in the context of the other survey results where people want us to spend a lot of time or a lot of focus working on improving You know site, you know editorial features for both content authors as well as site builders So it's a lot of a lot about that is about user interfaces Experimenting with experimenting experimental modules Is also something that's relatively new. I mean we started doing it But we have to do more experimentation. So the idea is we can the idea is actually something we borrowed from the Linux kernel When I was still compiling my own kernel In 1995 This was something that was available in Linux. Not sure how many of you remember that but we could like enable experimental modules or experimental features and so It's something that we're now also doing in Drupal and the migrate UI is an experimental Module today and that allows us to be more flexible allows us to put things in core faster And then to iterate on it while it's still in core while not having to worry as much about you know making big changes to it So again, it's an interesting way to innovate And it should also help us commit things a little bit faster Because there is less risk in in committing something early on Some something else that we're working on is the ability to check patches You know to check if they still apply Automatically and if they do to try and automatically re-roll them It's something that people spend a lot of time on re-rolling patches and I think Heard a number like about a third of the patches or something can be automatically re-rolled so it could be a huge time saver for for You know for all of us But also people would get the quick feedback that the patch could be re-rolled So they're no longer blocked on somebody telling them that and then many many many more things All right here. You can see An image which I believe was used in in a presentation at Gabor and Angie gave To gave a talk about Introducing, you know more agility in the in the planning process The feedback that I heard is that that talk was extremely well received So very exciting And as I mentioned the idea is to validate ideas early before writing codes to prototype You know either on paper or even just HTML and CSS without even writing something that works with Drupal To go test it with real users And again in combination with experimental modules, I think that could be pretty You know pretty exciting change All right then there's also been a lot of conversations about the different initiatives and I proposed about nine initiatives or something the exciting news is That the workflow initiative the API first initiatives and and most likely the blocks and layout initiatives of funding So we're probably gonna focus with these. I mean there's people waiting to start working on these things so we can get going With those and I think we'll try this new planning process on them. I'm sure we'll learn a lot and have to tweak a lot, but So the next step we just had a meeting actually With Boyan and Roy and Gabor and Angie and we talked about sort of the product management Part of these initiatives and we're gonna start working with these three initiatives and then hopefully with all of the other initiatives as well and Try and make him successful by helping them do things like prioritizing The features within these initiatives because initiatives are more like strategic directions, right? Like workflow that can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people and so we need to figure out Workflow what exactly do we mean by workflow? What are all the features around workflow and which fee features will be work on first? And Then obviously communication and prototyping all of these things so pretty exciting about that and we'll keep you posted How do we fix more of these barriers the long list that I showed you in the spreadsheet? Well, first of all with your help as I mentioned, we're gonna create an issue for each of those things and You know, we'd love your help trying to fix them The Drupal Association has as I mentioned made several changes that help us and they will hopefully continue to make those changes on improving gear at all and Then, you know, lots of conversations between all the different stakeholders if you will core committers and the working groups and the contributors trying to figure out how to make our process better how to make our tools better and You know and also people frankly usually comes down to process tools and people And so we need to make sure we have the right people on the bus in the right seats and that's also an ongoing effort and Last one at least and just was a champion of this but I you know I buy I buy into it as well. Is that making contribution easier is actually one of the most valuable ways to contribute Right. I think if you think about the number of people that come to D2.0 I Think it's over a million people a month Right, and so it's a little bit like a funnel like a million people come to the websites Then X people download Drupal or learn how to install Drupal and then of those people that install Drupal You know why people actually end up using Drupal and from the people that are not using Drupal You know z-aligned is actually turning into a contributor And so the better we can streamline the whole process from discovering Drupal to installing Drupal to be learning Drupal to becoming a Drupal expert and a contributor You know the better it will be for Drupal. So it's a it's a work that really affects Anyone, you know anyone that contributes help helps with that funnel if you will if you help write documentation Well, that widens the funnel there if you help with improvements to D2.0 it helps it helps as well. So Thanks for all help. So that's what I wanted to share And at this point I would love to open it up for discussion The risk here is that Everybody starts to you know shit, you know, so here's what we should do. Here's what we should do Which is useful? So I prepared a few questions Actually, one of the things I would be interested in is is getting a little bit of feedback on the proposed initiatives So going back to the keynote If people have thoughts on those initiatives And Then you know if you have ideas on how people can contribute to do those initiatives. I'm also interested in Experiences that compare Drupal to other projects I'm sure many of you are active in other projects as well And I think you can always learn from other projects. And so we would be curious about that And then yeah, if you have ideas for what the number one Barrier is we would we would love to hear that as well. I Think there's a mic if you might if you don't mind coming up to the mic The reason is I think you're recording these sessions. So that way people can listen to them And feel free to line up if you have questions So one of the it's really loud One of the things I'd like to put the keynote this year So for a lot of the new initiatives, you have sort of these nice UX markups, you know You have an animation that kind of demonstrates the process the intention I think that's really valuable But one of the things in general that I'm not sure about you can give me some insight and like I'm a digital strategist So I work with Drupal and experience as a developer, but now I want to focus on how things work, right? You know inside the contrib space What's the process for that? How does a you how does a digital strategist actually step in and say this whole you know This initiative makes sense, but you actually need to sit down and figure out your user flows specific user stories Because I think most of Drupal contrib is based around sort of the developer centric side of it But where's the other side right? How do we get there where we can actually map out a user flow wireframe? build Yeah, so that is a key question, right then as we You know as I mentioned we're gonna spend way more time on sort of the user flow because a lot of the features that are on the proposed initiative list are user focused and I think Where we have a weakness frankly is in you know what you just described whether you call it digital strategist or product management or user experience design like figuring out how How we how we do that is going to be key and and it's going to be a little painful for some of you You know because we have to we have to do things differently I think because we're such a technical community we have been We tend to We tend to say things like all right first. We need to rewrite the whole API And after we've rewritten the whole API we can then start to build user interfaces on top of that or something Right or if you don't refactor this now, we won't be able to refactor it later But I think we need to find a good balance between making progress on user interfaces as well as At the same time I'm sure we'll have to do API work as well But it may actually require us to think a little bit different About how we develop Drupal and make different trade-offs Having said that to come back to your question For each of these initiatives, we're gonna build a team I mean and one of the things we've learned from Drupal 7 is that if there is not a well-rounded team for initiative these initiatives can really struggle sometimes and So that's why now we have proposed initiatives and planned initiatives and sort of Started initiatives and we're only going to start an initiative if we have a good plan and that plan arguably should include You know wireframes or you know these kinds of things that are tested and so what that means is that before an initiative even starts We're gonna have to get the right people involved that can help us with these things We'll see how that goes. It sounds like we have at least one volunteer Thank you Hey, thanks for this discussion the I was wondering where does the funding for these initiatives come from? Yeah, it's a great question Well they can come from everywhere The workflow initiative You know I showed some of the names on the slides and the company that they're affiliated with and so The workflow initiative is effectively Pfizer That has stepped up and said hey we use Drupal We really benefit from Drupal and we want to give back to Drupal So in that case, it's you know like actually the first time I would say that a user of Drupal an end user of Drupal Is stepping up to contribute in such a big way which is kind of awesome to see The API first initiative and the blocks and layout initiative You know putting my aquia head on I'm willing to fund through aquia You know people think these initiatives are a good idea. We'll we'll work on them So and then you know, hopefully other people will step up to to fund some of the other initiatives. I Have a hypothesis one of the reasons that kind of the hobbyist contributor is falling off is that a lot of the low-hanging fruit that That you feel like you can get in there and make a difference in a small number of hours has really been kind of gobbled up and The contribute space there's a lot of stuff just to get your head around a module takes a long time Have you put any thought into? How we help decompose the work and match skill sets so that somebody can know okay I know I need a novice issue, but here's maybe the kind of issue. I should go after as opposed to just Going through the issue cues and hopefully they find something that fits. Yeah, we we actually do tag issues with novice Let's sure if you knew that or is that just what you mentioned you knew that I know that there is like the novice tag, but even within that there is sort of the You know, we had a fellow who's a digital strategist. You've got people who are more front-end Just knowing that it's a novice issue. I don't know necessarily gives the casual contributor the sense of Is it a fit for them and is there kind of an estimate of how long it should take so they know that Yeah, this is the one I should jump in on because if you just sort by the novice tag, that's hundreds of issues It's a good idea. Did you want to come up? So I have an answer to that So that's why I came up. So first if you happen to be lucky to be at a sprint then mentors would help you they work tirelessly to groom those issues and pick those issues and they know they Some of them they're keeping their heads and some of them they have lists that they can help match you with issues if you don't be if you're not so lucky to be at a sprint then I Think that initiatives provide a wide array of different things So if you are interested in like contributing to something media or something API first or something blocks and layouts Then the initiatives usually have meeting times that you can go to and they always have stuff that you can do You can do user testing with them. You can do you can look at mock-ups you can fix typos you can write documentation and You can just go in and explain that hey I'm interested in this and if you have some issue for me and they will have an issue for you And they have a vested interest to make you successful fixing it because you're going to help them Achieve their goals. So they're going to help you fix it So if you go to a random issue somewhere, it's it has a much higher chance of Not being looked at any anymore But if you go into a team that already has an interest in solving that problem space, then you get get Buddies to help you get mentors Awesome, thank you more questions No more questions. Oh, there's a question So I'm in agreement about basically repeating your words in the past of fostering the community to contribute being the most value that Drupal can provide and we're talking about user experience a lot and I was just looking at the issue queue I'm wondering if there's any initiative to perhaps survey the users who are trying to Commit or you know trying to commit and contribute to the project and Surveying the issue queue looking at you know improving that experience so that for the first time user It looks like something more approachable or something that they can dive into Sooner as it is one of the primary drivers of getting more people into that queue so basically helping to Create create a better experience for contributing like improving the user experience of the tools that we have That's the question. I think it's a great idea. I actually don't know to be honest what we're doing on that area Nothing right now So yeah, there's no focused effort on that it seems other than incremental improvements, but I think I think Jess has an answer So that list of a hundred contribution areas like fully half or two-thirds of them are Specific small changes that we can make small to medium-sized changes. We can make to Drupal org That will improve the contributor experience they range from everything like a General problem of making the list of core components something that a normal human being can understand So if you want to if you're looking for you know A that the question that was asked about how do we decompose the list of issues into something that's relevant to me Well, if we had a component list that allowed you you know rather than a hundred different things that allowed you to select Components relevant to you then that would help you find it other things like we have all of this arcane Terminology in Drupal that right now you kind of need someone to sit down with you and explain step-by-step. Okay. Here's the first step Here's the second one or alternately read a documentation page Ideally our issue should tell you that but there's there's all kinds of small changes that we can make in the user interface And those issues are out there They've been documented the problem is that there are limited resources that for example the Drupal Association has to work on So what that needs is is someone to go through this list that we hopefully will be publishing of All of these a hundred plus contribution barriers some of which have issues already go through and say hey You know I think I could probably help that write that thing that automatically re-rolls the patches or I have an idea For how to fix the component list and like maybe I can contribute back to the project module So the Drupal that org can display a small list of multiple components instead of having to pick one from a list of a hundred So there there is a lot of potential work that's already been identified that's out there It's just that we need we need resources of people to jump in and do it So that that's where I would start the not not visualizing a huge issue to redesign But tackling the the I think you're right said the big elephants in the room the things that we've known forever our problems and Starting to fix what we can of them Awesome if I can take a second just to build on what what Jess shared there as someone as a community person who Likes to dabble in some of the Drupal dot org work the Drupal Association staff has done an amazing job in cleaning up and fixing the process contributing to Drupal dot org and There there are some resource issues with that and as Jess says there's a lot of work I will say that if you can't find one of them come find me during the sprint tomorrow We'll get you a site We'll get you a Drupal dot org sandbox and you can pick off one of those issues and and and help scratch your own Itch and solve that problem. That's been holding you up Jeremy the man behind the mic has also done an amazing job. So thank you hydra is Chris Weber software engineer at the nerdy Drupal nerd You every time when I see Drupal compared to other systems It's always Amazon experience manager site core. Maybe WordPress when we're trying to make jokes But there are lots of other content management systems out there that that are worth a good look I really think we should be looking at the craft CMS Which is another kind of framework you CMS that shares a lot of similarities with Drupal. I did a podcast on that I'll give you the link later And I think it we we need to do a better job of getting out of the Drupal community and Going to different conferences talking to people who use other content management systems and maybe apply a bit of our process To people who are not Typically our audience Maybe try to find ways of surveying people that are not typically people who would visit your blog and find out about your survey I don't know what the real answer is, but I think we should do more outside of our normal audience who people Applied or would reply to the survey and I almost feel that the We've chosen a strategic direction based upon the voices of the choir and I'm not sure if we would have the same conclusions if We were to try to survey a broad audience of people who may or may not know what Drupal means our point a Tried hard to get the survey as wide as possible But it's always hard to get up the islands and to reach those people that have maybe never heard of Drupal, you know, I Think in general, I would agree with you that we would benefit from Having a good understanding of other players around us I try to Keep tabs of what the rest of the world is doing Definitely would love to see more people try and do the same You know, we can always learn from others, I think we should So I don't know. I don't have a better answer in how we can get off the island But if we all start to look and learn from others, I think we would definitely benefit I'm just wondering If there's anybody or any place specific tomorrow for someone who would want to go to a non code spring and do documentation or cleaning toilets or that kind of thing that would help out I tried last year and Was spoiled at about six different ways because my computer was locked down by my IT department I couldn't install a local dev and it was a little daunting and frustrating When basically I just wanted to write some documentation or help out in other ways and Any specific thing to look for tomorrow? That's your name. Sorry Ray Bartlett with the International Fund for anyone that wants to be raised buddy Tomorrow So another piece We're totally gonna get you Another piece of that Josh Mitchell CTO Drupal Association We are planning on having a bit of a migration Planning sprint related to documentation that has been one of the major initiatives that we've been working on at the Drupal Association If you haven't looked at the issue related to it. There's some major changes around documentation We need this for a lot of the droop late stuff We needed to make the experience under blood order a little bit better Some great things in it to like group maintainership Some concepts that I think are gonna make our documentation way better So definitely hook up with that because that has been an issue that worked there And the other thing I would add to what Jess was saying about the the contribution barriers I Would actually like to see those treated the same way that we treat core because that's what we did with Documentation we actually did user test all of our wire framing and our designs there Some great work by the team at the association to make sure that we weren't just implementing code We were implementing a plan and that's part of why it's taken a while to roll out It's because we did more planning than coding to start with and so the same thing goes for those contribution barriers If you can get in there and whiteboard and paper prototype and test it in the contribution sprints That's just as valuable as giving us some code that we may or may not be able to implement tomorrow So I don't get discouraged to give us ideas and that's gonna be better. So, thank you So look for Josh or Chris I was curious why you chose blocks and layouts as well as the the API stuff Obviously, I understand the workflow. Somebody's willing to willing to fund it, but I'm just curious your thoughts We have wants to do these two That the question or I'm just curious what what why those two and not some of the others. All right. Um, that's a good question Um, I personally believe strongly in in sort of the API first model You know again You know looking at what's happening around us. I see a lot of headless CMS has emerged but also a lot of Existing Drupal websites moving to more of a decoupled architecture and And you know if I look at if I think about the long term, I think this is actually, you know, very strategic And so that is why we picked that one Blocks and layouts, I don't know. There's not really a lot of reasonings behind that one, you know good of big media as well and maybe we should so Yeah, nothing special I guess the one thing that we do have in our advantage is Tim Plankett is on the team And so he's one of the one of the maintainers of blocks and and so that could help us But if you guys think we should pick another one happy to discuss but the rest stuff or the API first stuff I'm pretty passionate about Was a help Frank currie So I was wondering is on the da team. Is there an analytics group and That might be someplace I'd be interested in contributing back to where we sort of look at some of the data Maybe drop some, you know prompts and surveys on the various pages of triple org and say how was your experience today? Or you know, why was this difficult and try to pull that out over time? Yeah, good question. I don't know. I'm looking at Neil here and Rudy Oh You want to go to the mic? Sorry, maybe introduce yourself Ryan has it on mixologic infrastructure team Right now our analytics are a lot of database queries and spreadsheets and but it's not formalized but Getting some of that in place would be really awesome So that's something we're looking forward to we got an additional database setup that we can use to start Putting together some like business intelligence dashboards and things so that's stuff. We definitely Is there a an example of You know something Something else you've used where you've you've seen this done effectively or I don't know Yeah, I think you know we there are these like, you know Google docs that get put together and sometimes they're veiled and sometimes not but I think it'd be helpful to know You know straight database queries would be really helpful because there's obviously historical data that goes way back and we could really My interest is sort of machine learning and AI So I mean just from a machine learning techniques because probably start figuring out You know either where like you talked about the funnel where people falling off, you know It'd be interesting to see like, you know, how long if someone did was a first-time contributor How long do they keep going back and checking the issue queue and then how long does it take before they fall off? Like some of these interesting questions. I think we'd all come up with that. We could just start answering with some analytics Makes a lot of sense Hey mark drum and front-end developer at Lullabot I just wanted to comment that I was really excited by the list of initiatives that were being proposed I think the the API first focus is fantastic. I think improving that Will be really great. I'll really help move things forward I think the workflow things That's pretty awesome as well. And it's neat to see the progress being made on that And layouts and blocks I'm excited about that One of the things that's important A lot of the sites I work with are kind of panels based layouts and so getting the layout things in the core is really good Component-based steaming which is a little bit further down the track super excited about And that's earlier in we're early in the discussions for how that works I already kind of mentioned this to Tim about the layouts things I think there's going to be a lot of overlap in there because I think if we do get some really solid components In Drupal there will be a need for arbitrary layouts for those so that components work really well for both front-end developers and for the site builders The assembled web so hopefully we can just I don't want to slow that train down because I want to see that get in there Hopefully we can have some discussions early on to make sure that we The things get made in a way that will work well together once all those pieces get put together so but exciting work So thanks for all the work to Kind of start thinking about how to put those things together. So thank you. Glad you're excited. I was basically listening I mean I proposed the initiatives between our quotes, but really it's driven by the survey results So it's all of you that proposed the initiatives. They just translated the data into You know Into some initiatives really Yes, the other thing I wanted to add just on the other question I think the API first of I feel like I feel like it's like one of the strategic building blocks for a lot of Different things, you know, and that's that's why I'm excited about it as well. So I think you will enable a lot of other things to happen So hi Lucas heading I have my own Drupal shop in Nicaragua I think media also and I think that was also in some of your Documentation is a really great initiative Being able to do video and audio and pictures and embed those in wissy wig and wherever But I do also see that there's a lot of effort being done over in Europe on that already. So in some ways Maybe that's already being addressed and sort of sort of not maybe quite in the in-progress, but pretty close to in-progress But definitely needs to be done awesome, I agree So we we are figuring out the process for initiatives and we need to figure out the process For the actual teams how to be productive how to be effective What can we do for? Companies organizations that would like to fund or how can we create the environment and Basically explain the business benefits To more organizations of funding specific work. What do you think we could be doing there? Well, this has been a long You know passion, I guess of mine Over the years I've done a lot of thinking around how to make Drupal scale and how to get More organizations involved and I dedicated a whole keynote to it in Amsterdam a couple years ago I don't think there's one solution But one of the things that I proposed was the credit system and the credit system actually You have an interesting story on that like when we were in Drupal con India was three months ago or something You know Accenture came up to me and they traveled all the way to Mumbai to to talk and the first question asked me Like how how can we contribute? I'm like, oh well, and I went through all the list of ways you can contribute And it's like, okay, okay, and and then I asked why what you know Why do you want to contribute and he said two things one? that's a consulting has 400 plus Drupal developers and I'm struggling to hire Drupal developers and the reason that has 400 Drupal developers is because they're alive to contribute And because in India people really You know they value building a resume or a profile for themselves by being able to contribute and secondly He said I just lost a deal a big deal to another company and that company showed their organizational profile and all the things they contributed and I couldn't make a case That you know, we were Drupal experts. So we won we lost that case against his other company that basically Could demonstrate, you know their contributions So I'm not saying the credit system is the the solution to everything But it is exciting to see how it's starting to help organizations contribute so So this is actually a possible oversight in our in our slides up there We should have mentioned also that one of the big changes we made for contributors in the past year is that? Drupal core adopted the policy that all kinds of contribution are an issue are credited on Drupal.org on that's reflected on the organization profiles as Dries says also on your individual profile So it's no longer just if you made a code change to a patch that you're credited in the get log Any kind of contribution you make to the issue whether it is project management and issue triage whether it is adding Documentation whether it is providing designs for the issue and doing manual testing or giving a usability review Crediting reviewers is one of the things that we started doing in the past year So hopefully that's something that will help us be a Building block in the future to make it clear that all kinds of contribution are needed It's not just about the code and we actually we desperately need your your design expertise Your project management skills for for helping us work on the most important things first and so on So that's something that I think I would I would follow Dries's concept It's not it's not just for code contributions Every kind of contribution you make is then reflected on your profile and your organization's profile for core and all of contributed modules But core has a very like we're very dedicated to trying to make sure each issue is credited for all of these types awesome Just just to finish that I mean if you think about most organizations what they care about is one customers and To being able to hire the best talent right and the credit system helps them with those things and then there's a whole bunch of organizations Many of whom are in the audience You know that contribute for more altruistic reasons for example or they get these benefits But maybe more you know indirectly but I think It's also our responsibility to educate You know to to our you know bosses or to to our customers You know why they should contribute them how eventually when they do they wouldn't My name is Tim Erickson on on the same topic. I'm really curious about how successful For my precise perspective the D8 accelerate fund seemed like it was successful. How big of an impact at that app Was that you consider that to have been a successful effort and what did we learn from that moving forward? You know my perspective that is that it was really successful personally I'm not sure how we measure that Or how to quantify the impact of it, but it really helped us move things forward much more rapidly So I would say we would repeat that again. I don't know anyone else wants to comment on the on that specifically, but Some people seem to agree during the The keynote Q&A the other day you mentioned that you were open to the major change of Moving issue queues to github. That's been talked about on and off for several years and Usually the answer that comes back is yes, there's a lot of benefit but there's also these huge holes in Github that make it just not work for us or other projects like us like WordPress or Joomla or other Really big projects that are still not on github for various reasons if that is Something that you'd like to see explored again one why to How do we address those large gaps that have kept us from going that route before certainly there are advantages to it But we can't do that unless we resolve those Those blockers to it. How do we go about addressing that? Better at this time than the last three times we have a conversation right well, I think Couple of things come to mind one is figuring out the governance Aspect of that who makes that decision, right? I think that's that's The first challenge in this case where there's a lot of different opinions and it's not clear What the exact decision-making process is so I would I would start there like figure out how we make this decision Who do we empower to make that decision is that people in the communities of people on the triple association side of things? You know that kind of stuff Secondly the other thought is That there's not going to be an easy an easy solution and actually Just to balance it back specifically to you and I don't mean that in any in any bad way But it's still a bit like making the move from procedural to object-oriented, right? It's you know in the process We change a lot and we'll lose a lot of people because of the change Right, but there's a lot of people that will say we don't want to make that that transformation We want to do procedural at the same time. I Agree with you in that I believe we will win a lot more new people a lot more new people and so here's an example of a big change where we made hard trade-offs between losing people and then you know gaining people and I Believe the github situation is a little bit similar Like in the process if we decide to do this and it's with an if if we decide to do this I think we will upset a bunch of people and At the same time, I do think it will Allow us to attract more people So but I yeah, I don't know if we can close all the gaps. I Think we should try and talk to github for example see if they're willing to work with us I think we could explore a good lap I think I mentioned that in the keynote to and I've no experience with github myself So I'm not the best person to even talk about this But you know self-hosting something like github maybe a solution although I don't think I don't know. I don't know about github, but so I think we should explore the options and and power the right group of people to make a decision and we need to look at it from the core the core developers point of view and the contributors point of view but also From the drip associations point of view because you know, they end up they end up maintaining all of this in the end So I think there's multiple different angles to look at this and No, we need to we need to figure out which how we kind of weight these different aspects And since you pushed back back on me I'll you know follow that analogy a bit in the case of transitioning Drupal from a procedural system to an OO system There were places where you know, we Could just swap something out for a third-party component and go all the way They're places where we could go part way and build our own OO system They're places where we had bridge code that was semi procedural semi OO for a time and eventually phased it out So there were a lot of steps we could take to smooth that transition So yes, you know, there's some people who lose some we gained but we could make that a smoother transition over the last five years with Something like github, you know a lot of the places where there are You know a disconnect between how github works and how we're used to working I don't know how we could have that's bridge layer in a sense You know the most common example I see is you know github pull requests are wonderful when it's one person working on it They're far better than the issue queue when you have ten people bouncing something back and forth Issue queue is a lot easier to work with. I don't know how we bridge that kind of gap So, you know, how do we go about figuring out? How we bridge those kind of gaps and you know, if that's a cost effective way of doing it cost in the more general sense not just monetary It's I guess we've had this conversation before. How do we have it differently this time? I guess is my question So so Peter is saying I think I hear Peter talking Peter was saying that so this discussion for reference this discussion was was visited Several times over the past years. There is an issue on Drupal that org which is node two four eight eight two six six Which is one of the contribution barriers in that? Google doc you saw a screenshot of that's going to have an issue tag eventually That does Scott. Yeah, again two four eight eight two Six six no two four eight eight Two six six The title of the issue is improved get workflow on Drupal that org by implementing issue workspaces Which you notice doesn't say anything about kithub. This issue did discuss the pros the cons of moving to github And compared like what we would lose versus what we would gain at the time of this discussion It's all outlined in the summary the reasons for for that proposal student at the time of the discussion We we decided to try to improve Drupal dot org Instead for the reasons that but unfortunately this and maybe Josh can give an update on what the what the status of this currently is so that That was that was the I think that's what Peter was getting at. Yeah, so it's not just like oh We've talked about it, but never really done anything with it There was a lot of work and thought and planning that wanted went to the decision at the time at least We wanted to improve Drupal dot org that might not always be the case in the future, but Josh This is actually this is near and dear to me I feel like the first two years of being CTO for the Drupal Association is the discovery process of figuring out how the hell We would be able to do something like move to github To give you a sense of the scale of it github replaces like four of our 20 major collaboration services for There are 16 integration points to those four services Only four of them actually are solved when you move to github So you still have 12 integration points that you have to refactor and these are pretty important reintegration points These are things like the integration between Our git repositories and packaging how you actually get a copy of the Drupal software It's also integrations like how we interact with composer Which is the new composer in points that we just rolled out and that's going to be a powerful new feature That gets us closer to the way PHP does it the PHP community in general does it So it's it's complicated. I I actually am a strong believer with trees. I agree with him that we will get more out of Having github developers interact with Drupal and we already see this with some of the contrib modules that basically do all the work on github and then they clone Over into our repositories so that they can get packaging and updates and everything else I think that's actually the first step the first step is an integration where we can show that Yeah, you can do the github process However for that entire project we lose issue credits Which means we don't see those people contributing along with the rest of us Maybe that's okay because we don't see all the contributions to guzzle. We don't see all the contributions to twig We don't see all the contributions to symphony. Maybe it gets treated more like that But it does get really complicated when we start talking about that migration for core And that's one of the reasons why we explored issue workspaces is because we were like can't can we actually do this? Just on the highest level. It's a big project. You guys remember how long the get migration took took two years lots of discussion great volunteer effort to start and then throwing out the cash at the contractors to get it over the finish line and Honestly, that's the same kind of project that we'd be looking at So we need to we need to look at it with our eyes open And not just say just or simple or easy when talking about it Because I think that does a great disservice to the complexity of the technology that we put together to have an awesome contribution and collaboration System that we have so that's you know in a summary I've actually got a blog post that we've been working on that kind of summarizes all this and kind of puts it out There for everybody Because I do think it is one of the most important decisions we have And if anybody has a bag of money, I would love to love to do it So Large, I mean, I'm talking mixed groups bags of money here. Come on So, thanks. Thank you Josh. All right. I think we're over time Thanks everybody I Know it's impossible Yeah, that was Michael's idea like oh, yeah Yeah, and then I realized you wouldn't be able to see it and then I'm like Yeah be two years in row this year