 Looks like it worked. No radical. Fundamental principles of freedom, rational self-interest, and individual rights. This is the Iran Book Show. All right everybody, welcome to Iran Book Show on this Thursday, August 24th. Really looking forward to today's show. I think we've got some exciting new stuff but I'm just excited because I think a lot of the people who listen to the show maybe don't know the full history of We the Living and everything that was involved in making the movie and you know I continue to recommend watching the movie. It's such a good movie. We'll talk about this again. Everybody should be watching the movie. So today I brought in an expert on probably the world's number one expert on We the Living the movie. He's been involved in this movie since it was rediscovered in the 1960s I think it is but we'll hear the full story soon. Duncan is a film and video writer, director. He has over 150 productions to his credit. You can find on IMBD. He's won four Emmys, two Telly awards and a Peabody award nominations. That's super impressive. He's a director. He's written, directed, produced movies all over the world from Serbia to Argentina. He worked with Woody Allen. Wow, I didn't know that. Anthropologist Margaret Mead, musician Eric Clapton, actor Michael Cain and of course author Ayn Rand. And you can get the full biography of Duncan when I'm going to go over all of it but it's on his website. It's getting so big it may not fit on the zoom screen. That's right. I mean there's just so, so much that you've done. So hi Duncan. It's good to see you. Good to see you. So I've known Duncan for quite a while. I think he invited me to come and speak at a tea party event. That's right. 11 years ago, 12 years ago, the tea party days were heady days and very... It was a great talk too. Really well received. Thanks. It was but those are the days where we're optimistic. It's much harder to be optimistic today I think. Yeah. Good. So let's maybe start with We The Living The Book and then the Italian translation. So The We The Living was published in 1936. Rand's really first novel that she wrote wasn't a huge success in the United States and was very opposed by a intelligentsia I'd say in the U.S. that was very pro-Soviet. I think it's fair to say the 1930s New York had a lot of communists there and a lot of people who were sympathetic to it. We saw a little bit of the sympathy communism had in America in the Oppenheimer movie. I don't know if you saw the movie but we saw a little bit of that. How many of the scientists and intellectuals of the time? And it's a story about the Soviet Union. It's the most biographical story that she wrote. It's about a young woman growing up in the Soviet Union and the horrors of the Soviet Union. Tell us a little bit about its publication in Italy and then what happened after that. Sure. It got published in Italy pretty soon after the U.S. I don't remember the exact date but I would say within a year or two and it was quite a success in Italy. It was very popular and one of the people that read it was the daughter of the Scalera Studios which was a pretty major studio at the time in Italy and she loved the book and she thought it would make a great movie. She was hesitant though to bring it to her father who ran the studio because she thought he wouldn't understand the plight of the female character and all that and so she went to a very trusted producer who ended up being very involved with the movie and he brought the film in and the process started to see if the film could be made but of course World War II was on and it was not legally possible to get the screen rights from Iron Rand to make the movie and what they should have done is just say well that's too bad let's we'll do another movie but they decided well we're going to do the movie in ERA we like it and we'll do it and we'll figure out the legal parts of it after the war. Literally that's what I was told and I can explain at some point how I got very intimate details of how the movie was made because some of the people involved were still alive 15, 20 years ago a little longer and we interviewed them and got a lot of detail on the story but So what year does it start going into production? It's now 1942 pretty much everything happened in the year 1942 that it may have been brought to the attention of the producers before that but it didn't really ramp up for production until 1942. Of course the US is really in World War II and it's you know so the this is a the hot war it's US is the enemy of Italy. Exactly and the reason they thought it would be a good movie to make is the fascists were in power and but the enemy of Italy was Russia as well as the United States at the time and the movie of course reflects very badly on Russians and they kind of looked at it in a pretty superficial way well this is makes the Russians look bad we're good to go and they didn't think about how the themes and the principles shown in the movie reflect at least as badly equally as bad on the fascist government and it's pretty amazing look in hindsight that they didn't see that in advance. I will say that there was nervousness about it. Were the people who made the movie sympathetic to the fascists you think? I think there's variation in that the director was known as making movies that the fascists liked Goffredo Alessandrini but he claims later that he was not a fascist and of course a lot of Italians claim they weren't fascist and I think I've seen the of course I've been so intimately involved with the movie and I see the directorial touches in the movie and it kind of indicates to me that he may not really have been a true believer fascist because he could have done things in a way that the fascist would have come off their total their version of an authoritarian regime would have come off better but anyway and some of the cast were actually in the resistance movement not known at the time and it's only come out in recent years that Rosano Brotsi not only was in the resistance movement but after the we the living was filmed his activities got him arrested and he was actually pretty close to being executed but the fortunately for him the war came to an end but anyway I'm jumping ahead in the story there was nervousness about making this film they they felt the there was a fascist ministry of culture in place and they would oversee any movies being made and look over the shoulders of the directors and the editors and everything and and I'll get more into how that played out and it was really one adventure and one bizarre event after the other in the making of this movie I mean it started out where they basically stole the property so we're off to a pretty bad start right there so the director was shooting another movie and the script was being written and they hired two really kind of highfalutin I'll say writers who had not written movies but they thought you know this is the kind of level of writing we need for the screenplay but they really didn't understand screenwriting and they started to they wrote the script while the director was away so he didn't see it till he came back and they just made really strange changes that corrupted Einran's themes and what she was trying to say just one example is instead of Kira aspiring to be an engineer she aspires to be a ballerina in their version so and there was much more like that yeah so when the director came back from his other movie he looked at the script and said this is impossible and I'm not even going to send it back to these writers for a rewrite they can't do it but the cast was hired the sets were built the production was on a schedule that had to be followed and they basically had to go start filming without a finished script and what happened is the associate producer Anton Majano was not a screenwriter either but he really had a good feel for the book he was the one that the daughter of Scolero studios went to and said please advocate for doing this film and so he as they started the first days of filming he would sit off set and go through the book and write dialogue for upcoming filming sometimes just the day before and the amazing thing about that is it made the book the movie more faithful to the book than you normally would see because there was no time to be inventive and creative feed they just had to take it out of the the book and I should need to jump back and mention one other really interesting thing there was some nervousness about making the movie and the person that advocated from putting it through and greenlighting it was the son of Mussolini who was an aspiring filmmaker himself and it's an irony of ironies that we the living got made with the assistance of the son of Mussolini but in any rate they went into filming and script being written each day and it was when you write a script that way it's very hard to track how much screen time is being written how long it'll play out when it's all done because normally these things are all written way in advance and everything is figured out but after several weeks of filming and they were getting great material they realized they had way too much for one movie and they decided they were going to make split and make it into two movies and they also decided they weren't going to tell the stars of the movie because then they would want more money but it didn't take long for them to figure that out and there was you know some drama offset drama and eventually the echo worked out and the two they three stars of the movie were really really quite renowned and leading stars in Italy only one of whom would likely be known to American audiences and that's Rossano Brazzi and he starred in South Pacific and several other English language movies and he was quite a romantic leading man in the 50s and 60s in the US but this was one of his first serious roles in Italy he was quite young and he had only previously done swash buckling buckler you know action movies and this was a serious drama and it really established him as that kind of actor the Kira is played by Alita Valley and in my opinion I haven't seen every movie she's made but I've seen quite a few and she never was as incredible as she was in We The Living and I'm not just saying it because it's the film I work on and she was quite young I think she was 21 and you just see amazing maturity in the way she handles the character of Kira and just raw emotion when you get to the climactic scenes in the film and the third actor who plays André was played by an actor named Fosco Gicchetti and he also was a big star in Italy unknown pretty much in America but he was kind of the veral leading man considered like the John Wayne of Italy and so they had really big names launching into this movie they had more scenes and sets and production values than you would normally see so it was considered really one of the first epic films to be produced in Italy there were others but it's definitely among the first where did they cut off the part one and part two well yes so there's some spoilers here for people who haven't read the book we've seen the movie but Kira goes to André to try to raise money so she can save Leo and send him off to a sanatorium and the first movie ends with him departing for the sanatorium and never really being sure if they'll see each other again he even says as he was leaving just remember that I'll always love you with words to that effect and so that was fade out on the first movie and that movie was called Noi Bibi which variously translates to We Alive or We the Living we would probably say in English and then the other movie was called Adio Kira Goodbye Kira and the two movies were released at the same time and I'll get into how that played out that was kind of interesting as well so shall I continue with the production absolutely another interesting aspect is there are quite a lot of ex-patriot Russians in Rome where the movie was filmed and they made the most of that the producers they hired hundreds of them and I almost got to be amusing for me as I went through the film over and over over how many extras were in scenes where they could have had 20 or 30 and they'd have like 200 I think they got a lot of extras really cheap and they wanted to make the most of them there are quite a lot of big crowd scenes and the actors the extras I should say in these scenes many of them were Russians and so they're and they were often wearing their own clothes from Russia the art directors were ex-patriot Russians so the sets had that authenticity to them and but they had to rush the production the studio knew they had a big film on their hands and they wanted it ready for the Venice Film Festival which is always at the beginning of September roughly around Labor Day here and they were shooting this great big film and it really shouldn't have been filmed as fast as they did but they wanted they knew it would be important to get it into the to the Venice Film Festival and it's really remarkable to me that the movie turned out as well as it did given that rush and then and some of the deleted scenes and I'll explain why there are deleted scenes you could see more in those scenes how it was rushed and the things were not maybe as carefully set up as they were in the main storyline and I hope I'm not confusing people because I'm jumping ahead to what was changed later on. Well did who attended the Venice Film Festival in 1942 in the middle of the war you know yeah good question I basically the Italian movie industry and the whatever axis countries were aligned with them that wanted to go the Venice Film Festival is the first major film festival in the world and one of the longest running and it was quite a huge event and and I'll tell more about how what happened when we the living I had its premiere there but what another interesting thing that happened during production is that this ministry of culture that run by the fascist they would come to the set and they would watch filming and leave and then sometimes they would come to the editing room the day after scenes were filmed and want to see the dailies the rushes and the editors knew they had scenes that would be too controversial so they knew the fascists were going to show up at some point or other and they would hide away some of these scenes and the authorities would be there and look at what they you know what they did show them and then they'd say is that it isn't there more you were shooting all day yesterday and you only have those scenes so but they succeeded I think some of the fascist authorities probably knew wink wink what was going on but they managed to get through the production keeping these scenes hidden and then when the film was finally being prepared for a Venice they put the scenes back in so when it opened in Venice it did have all those controversial scenes back in and you might be surprised what was considered a controversial scene you might assume it's some really harsh political speech but even a scene like Leo trying to get work and going to a union office and being told you can't get a job unless you're in the union but he can't be in the union unless he has a job that actually was the fascist did not like that at all because that was a lot of that was going on in the country at the time so did the fascists get to see the complete movie before it premiered in Venice not to my knowledge there was such a rush that they were literally putting the last touches on the film the night before it premiered in Venice or probably getting the final print out of the laboratory and I think they just they pulled it off they they they got the film in there and all the scenes were in there and it was a sensation an absolute sensation the movie was shown in the main piazza in Venice an outdoor screening to many many hundreds of people and they still do that at the Venice Film Festival and it's quite something to see it by and large got terrific reviews really the only ones that weren't raving about it were fascist align movie critics and then the film was released in Italy and because it was two films the moviegoer had to go twice to see the movies and I'm told that they sometimes would see the movie in one theater and then run across town and see the other movie at another theater and you would think well that's that's not going to be a very popular thing for people to do but the movie was a box office sensation and it actually ended up being the number one box office film in Italy in 1942 and that's even more amazing because as I'm going to explain Mussolini decided to ban the film and I'll explain why yeah so it is surprising that it it lasted as long as it did given given the given the content well even after even after they saw it with the controversial scenes they I didn't get to a point where they thought well we can't we have to ban this film that took a little while to develop it's the popularity of the film that was it's undoing because the Italians would look up on the screen and and say what these Russians are going through that's our life here it's the same thing that's going on here and in fact the director and other people involved with the film said that we the living became came to be known as the film of winking in the dark because people would be sitting in the theater looking up and you know that's that's what weird so in many ways Mussolini and the fascist became a laughing stock and it was the parallels in the movie with how bad things were in Italy became obvious to everyone and finally Mussolini said this was a few months into the release that's enough what we want this movie banned and not only banned all the prints and all the materials are negative from the film to be confiscated and destroyed now is there any truth to the story that Goebbels or you know might have seen the movie and and alluded Mussolini to the fact that it was a problem yes and at a certain point they shipped a print over to Goebbels and apparently exchanging films between Germany and Italy was pretty common during the war in the other Axis countries and the way I heard the story is he took one look at the film and said words to the effect are they out of their minds we they can't run this film and messages went back to Italy that you've got to pull this film so I'm not really clear whether Mussolini had already decided that or he certainly was heavily influenced by that reaction from Germany so yeah I was surprised to learn how much Goebbels was involved in the movie industry in Germany and the other Axis countries well I mean they understood the power of arts and understood the power of movies and used that as propaganda I mean they had a thriving movie industry promoting their ideology during the 1930s and 1940s so it doesn't surprise me I guess the Goebbels would be involved in that yeah so here then another very interesting thing happened and people who don't know the story may wonder well if he ordered a band and destroyed why is there still a film and this gets very interesting the filmmakers did not want to see this film destroyed and they decided that they would hide the negatives of the film and instead send in the negatives of another film to the fascist I mean hoping and assuming that they wouldn't be able to tell the difference because normally you don't project a negative onto the screen so you can unspool it or something like that and they figured there's a good shot that they won't know that this isn't we the living and so they they did that it was they were not discovered and that was a quite a risk I mean I don't know how what kind of punishment they would have received but I'm sure it would have been pretty severe for doing something like that but they they hid the negatives in the basement of one of the production teams his basement and it's stay there for the duration of the war and so they they destroyed all the original films did any anybody associate with the production get arrested reprimanded by the regime as far as we know or did they not blame the the producers and the writers for for for the final product no they very much blame the producers and the production head and not the scolera but the man who ran his production unit I had the great good fortune of interviewing him in New York and talking about all this in detail and he was brought before a tribunal to explain how he could have made a film like that and what was he thinking basically and he was stripped of his position at the studio he would also was a professor I guess a professor teacher of films stripped of really stripped of all his academic positions to my knowledge I don't know of anyone going to jail over it but everybody involved in the production was definitely in a lot of hot water and this was also the last movie that Alita Valley and Rosanna Brotsy made a Brotsy completely disappeared into the resistance movement and we only learn recently one of our great supporters on this project has has been writing a book about Brotsy's life because there aren't many is very little written about his life and he actually they were American and perhaps British soldiers being hidden in homes in Rome to avoid capture by the fascists and Brotsy would go around to various homes bringing food and other supplies and people weren't even aware that he was a famous movie star and help those people survive and later escape Alita Valley also refused to do any more movies I don't know that she was actively in the resistance but basically wouldn't cooperate any further with the fascists so I was going to say so the one copy survived the war well better than one copy it was the original negative of the film yeah the prints of the film were destroyed but they held back that negative successfully and and of course that's the best thing you can save because that's that's your best copy and best quality of version of the film and so the war ended the studio wanted to now release the film but with the war not on they had to get a license from Mainrand and they sent the actors Alita Valley and Rosanna Brotsy to Hollywood to LA where she was living at that time to persuade her to grant that license to the studio and that's the first time I'm pretty sure that she saw the film she certainly didn't see it during the war and she liked the film overall but what happened during the filming that is despite the fact that certain scenes were hidden that were controversial the fascist ministry also made them shoot certain propaganda dialogue that really it did not fit at all into the story and so the movie was really corrupted by several scenes that had propaganda dialogue but basically just written by the fascist it was really stood out and even if you knew nothing about the book you would say what is that so obviously you can imagine she was very offended by that and very she was very offended that they had made the movie without her permission keep in mind this book is highly autobiographical it was very personal to her drawn very much from her own personal experiences it was her first novel and she had no say in that the movie was made she had no say in how it was made and how it was cast totally cut out of the picture and uh she was not happy and the the actors failed to convince her that she should grant the license what you know sorry what you what year was this I believe it was around 1947 or 48 I'm not quite sure on that but right around that time period so they couldn't release the film the negatives were now no longer in that basement they were back with scolera studios um but they it couldn't be released so years went by and then scolera studios went out of business and uh so they had this catalog of many films that they began to sell off and uh one uh company bought a number of these films and they were put into storage they also couldn't do anything with the way they're living because they didn't have the literary rights that went that we are needed to release the film so it sat there and sat there and sat there and really basically became a lost movie um and in the meantime iron rand had never been compensated for the release of the movie mind you this is the number one box office film in 1942 and she was not given a dime for it and she had lawyers approach the studio and got nowhere that with that uh began a lawsuit against the studio and against the government of italy suing for reparations and after many many many years she she finally succeeded and it was not a great sum so it was more of a moral victory than anything else um so the movie was in storage and years went by decades went by and two of her associates uh who did a lot of legal work for her henry mark holzer and erica holzer they heard her talk about the existence of the film and but it had been many years before and they were pretty shocked it had no idea that a movie had been made and she said well this was decades ago and i'm sure it's long lost and they said would you please let us give a try to look for the film and see if we can find it and she said in effect yes you can but if you find it these these propaganda i will uh with certain changes allow the movie to be released but these propaganda scenes would have to come out and they said great let's let us go find this film and this was before the internet and a lot of other things that we take for granted now and they had to travel to italy uh numerous times um and eventually but took them about two years on and off and they found the film and in storage and uh i think the owners of the film really had no idea what a treasure this was um and they were uh happy that here these americans came over and wanted to buy it yep um and so the holzers bought the physical materials and of course they had an agreement with iron rand for permission to for you know the licensing the literary license for the film and uh they brought it back to america um it was transferred from nitrate film stock which was a dangerous sort of film stock that was used up until i think the early 1950s transferred to safety film and then um and then they were gonna get they were getting ready to edit the film um according to iron rand's wishes and that's where i entered the picture i heard i heard about the project i um i was quite young um new to the the world of iron rand and objectivism but very very passionate about it and i subscribed to that little uh green greenish blue magazine the objectivist that was published i think monthly and in in the back there was this little mention of the movie having been uh discovered and and that it was going to be re-edited and i perked up because i worked in a film editing room at the time and my title really was assistant editor uh not very uh not really the title i would have liked to offer them but i said i said i'd like to work on this film and i sent this letter off to the holzers i had didn't know them at all and i thought well nothing's gonna come of this i i don't have any connections i don't know them i'm really young but uh some weeks later i did get a response and they asked me to come in and one thing led to the other and i found myself starting to work on the project and to my own amazement basically and uh and one of the first things we had to do was gather everybody together to run the film and it's and it's you know conditioned as it was filmed uh in other words the full four hours with all the propaganda dialogue and so forth it was not there were no subtitles um and everything was on 20 minute reels of film um so this was done in an editing room on a device called a moviola which is a very small machine used by film editors and inrand and the collective um that were you know her close associates at the time were all huddled around it i think it was somewhere near a dozen people all huddled around this little movie all over the screen about that big was this in new york yes it was on the upper east side in the studio where i worked i i got permission from my bosses to use the studio in the evening and uh they very graciously allowed me to do that and so this first evening was quite quite something because you had first of all it's a four-hour movie but the the reels had to be changed every 20 minutes so you can imagine that made the evening much much longer than that alone one 20 minute reel had to be unthreaded from the moviola the next reel put on threaded up and go through that reel and again and again and there were no subtitles so we had a a translation in italian and it was next we had the italian script and then a translation next to it on the page and there was four hours of that and one person read the english tried to synchronize themselves as best they could to the italian that was running by on the screen and they were reading the english and you're probably thinking well this must be the most awful way to see a film that you can imagine but i gotta tell you at the end of the evening everybody was just in awe they they just were so thrilled it was like a historic moment that was the sense you got from everyone so this is late 60s this is 60 how this would actually be yeah 69 i believe six late 68 or 69 yes and so was Ayn was Ayn part of that group that saw it oh yes she was there for four six eight hours or whatever it took yeah yeah um she was front and center in front of that little screen um and so then we we got ready to go ahead and start editing the film and this was incredibly interesting period for me because it was my job to sit with her and uh make sure i understood the changes she wanted to the film and it ended up being a series of several evenings after working hours she would come over and i can't uh i imagine her husband came with her but it the evening always ended up there was her and i in a semi darkened editing room running the film through a small viewer on the editing table stopping and starting and discussing these scenes um and what had to be done uh it was just an amazing experience and i thought um before it started well Ayn ran as an incredible writer and all this but she probably doesn't know much about film editing this was before nowadays everybody has film editing software on their computer but people did not understand film editing back in the late 60s and i thought i'd have to explain certain principles but that wasn't the case at all she she was very savvy and very much understood and she knew what she wanted to do with the film it wasn't uh there wasn't much that i had to recommend or suggest uh the main thing i did is she there's certain changes that were difficult because certain propaganda dialogue was mixed in with scenes that we couldn't just cut out that scene had to stay in and my main contribution was figuring out solutions on on uh getting that objectionable dialogue out without ruining the integrity of the film and so that was a process that we went through for a period of time so so in italian because i know i know some of the subtitles the propaganda is all taken from the subtitles but is the is the italian itself all the propaganda is out so you cut in the middle of people speaking you cut out the the so how do you not exactly not exactly there were different solutions depending on the scene uh sometimes you could cut you know lots of movies you cut back and forth from one actor to the other and sometimes on a few scenes it was that simple you just jump over the objectionable dialogue when you're cutting back and forth but there were others where it was more complex than that and it wasn't always dialogue again big spoiler here for people who haven't read the book uh andre becomes so disillusioned with his idealistic beliefs about communism and he's seen the effect on kira that he ultimately decides to commit suicide and that was extremely important that that not be changed but they did in the movie the filmmakers decided that they would have the they they did everything they could to make the communists look bad and having them come and shoot andre seemed like a better solution so they had communist goons of the secret police come to andre's apartment and shoot him in the original version of the movie and and she said we we have to change that he must it's so important to the themes of the book that that level of disillusion and and the solution that i hit i hit upon which was also fortunate was that before these people come to shoot andre he is they do show him considering suicide and they show him sitting in front of a fireplace and he reaches over and picks up a gun and the and he's looking at it and grim faced and in the original movie there's a knock on the door and he puts the gun down and the secret police come in and shoot him but in our version we extended that scene with various ways of manipulating it looking at the gun made it run a little bit longer then we cut back to the close up of the fireplace and then you hear the shot go off and you realize that he's committed suicide that's good yeah it was a simple solution but it worked very well and we we did also she didn't want the objectional dialogue to only be changed in the subtitles she didn't want people who spoke Italian to be hearing it either and so we actually went to Rome and we hired sound-alike actors for just it's a very small part of the film and I sometimes hope people don't think this film has been manipulated up and down and back and forth it's a very very small percentage of the film where we dubbed in replacement dialogue with actors it's mainly in the trial scene when andre is brought to answer for his actions but throughout the rest of the movie it's all the original soundtrack how long is the movie today down from the four hours the original four hours two hours and 56 minutes so there is a whole hour that is that is not on the that is not on the screen right and a lot of people um say well this is terrible we want to see the whole movie and it's one of those situations of be careful what you wish for because I ran very wisely in the editing and this is an important point to make it was entirely her call her choice that she finally had input on the movie that she never had when the film was made and she uh and I think a stroke of brilliance said let's stick to only the main storyline of the main three characters and uh there was a very elaborate um playing out of subplots in the original movie and they didn't they weren't needed to support that main storyline and she said they're just going to go uh some of them were very good some of those scenes were not so good um but you you see the movie and you see how it it holds together and it flows um it was a brilliant call and so my main job was taking out those subplots and keeping things intact with the the main storyline and the reason I also say be careful be careful what you wish for is the four hour version in my opinion is very bloated and over long the uh the many of the subplots uh were not done in a very compelling way the caliber of acting was not up to the level of the three main characters some of it sunk into melodrama too deeply the three hour version is vastly better than the four hour version and there's really nothing to be moan or or miss and we do we did release uh the deleted scenes by themselves in the dvd version that we put out um the standard definition dvd version and we will do it again for the blu-ray version that we will do for the so people will be able to see these scenes but they're and i'm rand's wishes they're never going to be restored back into the in the entire film so when was it when was it when was the movie first released uh you know post-editing right so uh it was in the late 80s that we um got the the work done um we have a sort of final product i ran that she died before we were able to show her the final product but everything that she had asked editorially was done successfully and we had finished that before she died we she hadn't seen it but we had done everything she asked for she didn't see it with the final subtitles um but it was the movie she wanted and i've always felt very good about that and i wish wish she had had a chance to see it but as as you know there were a lot of delays from the time she first saw it um other other projects other things going on in her life and we uh Hank and erica's holster's credit they legally could have gone ahead and finished the film because they had conformed with everything she asked for but they wanted her to stay involved as long as she said she was willing to stay involved with the project and she said she was but it just never came to a point where she could get back in and work with us so many years went by then she passed away and we prepared the movie finally for release in america and and then i got my first encounter way back then with woke culture and cancelled culture yeah it goes that far back um a lot of uh turn downs by distributors um and uh exhibitors and it's much worse today and i'll get to that later but we did eventually find a distributor and we did get it uh even before finding that distributor we got it into the telluride film festival which is a very prestigious festival in colorado a wonderful wonderful place to go for a film festival it's quite famous and it had its american premiere at the telluride film festival and i believe that was 1988 um we still didn't have a distributor uh and so it didn't go into regular release right away it was closer to 89 or 90 and when it finally did go into theaters uh it did did quite well uh i remember uh looking at a variety listing of top box office films and didn't expect it to see it on there at all but it was there um and it played in about 70 theaters around the country during over a course of several years and then it went on over time to have a run in australia and the uk um and then um we started making home video versions of it initially on vhs tape and later dvd i own both of those did well with any reviews written when it came out and tell you why it was following oh yes in fact um i i really would encourage your viewers to uh go to see the website uh are we the livingmovie.com website because there's much much more about this story and there's a whole page of reviews um and photographs and also very important um we have a newsletter that we send out periodically not not too many times but we announce screenings coming up special events of the film and people would like to know what's coming up next for the film they can click on a button on the website to sign up for that newsletter i really encourage them to do that if they're interested in the film and they'll they'll see some of the events that have already happened we have those listed and some great ones coming up um so so after the first release it went out i mean i remember i got the dvds um you know so so what made you go back to the film to to kind of think about we we uh publishing it right so all these years from the it's a release in america uh and home video it was still an old movie that it was very decades old it was decades old when we started working on it um it had flaws it had scratches it had dirt it had missing frames film has sprocket holes in it and some of them caused the film to jiggle up and down a lot of things that happened in really old films and uh i mean it was a great film and it looked great on a big screen on home video we had it was in standard definition it wasn't in high definition and it had those flaws so it was not crystal clear sharp and it had these scratches and dirt and so we felt that something had to be done and they uh the good news is there were new digital tools to enable us to do this and first of course was scanning the film again in high definition and so that was done a few years ago and while i worked on other projects we had that sitting aside and then i decided well now it's time to do the high definition version of the film and i wasn't really planning on doing a lot of restoration work on it but as uh and this i did this hands-on i just enjoyed doing this restoration work myself it's like i'm covering a treasure um as i kept working on it i kept seeing how amazing these tools were and how they could remove scratches and remove dirt and stop the the film from jiggling and on and on and we kept adding new improvements like that uh and what what i thought was going to be a project for a few months was you know over two years by the time we finally had everything done and of course it was a learning process for me as well i had not restored a film before but uh love the results i mean it uh that i saw the movie when was it a year ago a year and a half ago um at okon at okon it was yeah it's all the sound was much better uh the the the you know the images are gorgeous i mean it's an amazing beautiful film i i think it's the best film of an iron man book uh yeah i know i know involvement and and all of that it's just gorgeous uh and and then i think yeah the difference between this version and the previous version was very evidence that you did a great job obviously in in interest here it's thank you another enhancement is that um people in the dvd version of the standard dvd version complained that at times the subtitles were hard to read they were made with a mechanical process back then this was before digital and they were white subtitles and they would be a scene with a white tablecloth and it was really hard to read the titles and so we worked especially hard to to uh make that so much better we put a faint tint behind the titles um the digital creation of the titles is much sharper and brighter than the old mechanical version so they're just incredibly uh more readable than they were uh and that's no small thing because it's the dialogue and what everything they're saying is so important as i get old i appreciate stuff like that more and more yeah i hear you tell us as you you kind of screened you screened it in okon there was still work that you were planning to do post that screening if i remember right so is that completed uh is now you now have the final what you consider the final version i almost uh need to eradicate the word final out of my vocabulary because so many times i thought i had the final version and then we discovered something else had to be done sometimes it's just something like somebody discovers a typo and i'm going i can't believe it like six different people have looked at this and said there are no more typos and then somebody finds another one um and even just for that we will go and render a new version of the movie uh and even the even months after okon we saw certain flaws in the film that we saw oh there's i wasn't aware of it but there's a way to fix that flaw as well and we'd go back and fix that as well but um oh yeah that okon was uh only the second time anybody saw the film just days before we were invited to bring it to a film festival in balonia italy called il cinema ritrovato films remembered and that was quite an honor and it felt uh really wonderful to be bringing the film back to italy where it originated at a festival where all they do is honor classic films so it was a very fitting how was it received in italy wonderful uh they they added a second screening i we had already left to come to okon but there was another screening there yeah and then after okon we went back and started working on these final things that needed to be taken care i mean people who saw it okon shouldn't be concerned i mean that it's it's the same film but there were just some refinements and enhancements that we wanted to make so where's it been screened since and and what now are the plans uh both in terms of screening and then of course everybody's asking here when can they get the blueway yes i get that asked all the time uh or streaming um so um we had uh the same kind of problem finding distributors and one of the reasons it's been so long after okon and it hasn't come out yet is it was it's the same cancel culture the same woke culture uh and here's a pattern that would happen over and over we'd contact somebody there's only a handful of companies that specialize in class distributing classic films and we reached out to every one of them and most of them responded and watched the film and our contact uh would get back to me and say oh this film is amazing this is perfect for us i mean there's what a film i can't believe i didn't know about it and and then we'd say great and then they would wait to for them to make us an offer and we don't don't get it right away and then we write them long story short they they stopped communicating with us and you and you would say well maybe that's a fluke but this happened again and again and again always there was some person with the company loved it apparently and i can only guess they go back to their colleague and their colleagues say but it's ran and then the whole thing falls apart so we started working on our own self distribution but i'm happy to say we are negotiating now with a distributor who's based in america but as italian and very very familiar with the italian industry and and sees very very high hopes for the film there and we've actually had several conversations and it hasn't fallen apart yet so this is not a woke or canceled culture thing and we're very excited that at this point you think we do want to get queens in idly actually being a theater in idly in theaters in in in schools all sorts of distribution as well as distributing it conventionally in the us because i i really didn't want to continue to self distribute i i did that with the other version of the film and on home video and so forth and i really want uh professionals with all the infrastructure that they have and knowledge that they have to to distribute that and it looks like we're finally at that point but in the meantime we did go ahead and have our world premiere of the restored version of the film with the living the eightieth anniversary restoration and that was held just this past june early june at the film forum in Manhattan it's one of the most prestigious art house movie theaters in the country and we waited a long time for that booking because of the prestige and we you know felt it would help with credibility and people wanting to run the film and that was a big success they didn't they didn't help promote the film at all in fact uh when we went to the premiere walked up to the and we'd see the film's not up on the name is not up in the marquee and we walk into the lobby there's no poster up anywhere you had to know the movie was premiering there and asked for it at the box office because there would be no other way to know nevertheless it was a complete sell out and in fact people fighting over seats and storming out because they didn't have couldn't get a seat very successful and then after that we went and had the european premiere in belgrade syria they have also have a wonderful film festival there that honors classic films and mind you there's not a whole lot of festivals that concentrate on classic films so we love it that it's been in two of the biggest ones uh belgrade syria and i had no idea this was the case uh has a really major film restoration studio there yeah and uh and they have restored films from all all over the world and they themselves have a very impressive history of filmmaking uh i didn't know it was interesting to learn about that but they had this film festival called the nitrate film festival based on the the name of that film stock that no longer used and that we had a wonderful european premiere there to wonderful cocktail order of reception afterwards and belgrade is a beautiful city i had no idea it is uh yeah i've spoken there several times so it's yeah yeah right on the shore of the danube river and very just wonderful sidewalk cafes and really lovely things there we'd go back in a heartbeat and they do want us to come back the we're hosted by a festival and an inran organization that's based in in belgrade inran center europe and then so what's the plan now uh in terms of other showings you were saying you're going somewhere uh yeah we've got a great uh nobody we haven't even announced it yet and i'm happy to make the initial announcement right here with you you're on we are just thrilled that our next screening is uh going to be in kiv ukraine we have learned that the groups there are freedom and groups and inran oriented groups really really want this film and we're very very eager to have it and there's a very good reason for this this is a film that shows what life is like under russian rule and they have their youth going to the front lines and but these are very young people who don't really didn't experience what it was like to live under russian rule their parents and grandparents did but they didn't and they wanted a film to show them this is what you're fighting for that to not bring this back to ukraine and they want to show it all over ukraine we uh we have the first showing in kiv coming right up on september 2nd and we'll but we'll be announcing it and posting pictures and so forth and again if people are interested in that they should sign up for the newsletter and that's a link that's on our we the living movie dot com website uh click on that button and you you'll get on the subscription um and another interesting thing is that they it's a charity event for them they're not uh they're asking for donations but not for themselves the donations are going to support the soldiers on the front lines and i i i've decided that i want to enlist the help of um people who love we the living and love on rand and support them in that uh charitable process and we weren't able to set it up just yet but very soon we'll have a link on the website where people can donate also to this ukrainian organization that's showing the film and sending their proceeds uh to support their soldiers do you know where it's going to be it's going to be shown in ukraine yeah oh uh no i i don't but i've authorized them to show it in other cities myself and my associate producer and wife uh barba scott will be there to introduce the film uh it's it's of course a little uh nerve-wracking to think of going there uh we did a lot of research on it and we feel it's a very very minimal minimal risk um it is difficult to get there we'll be flying to warsaw and then taking a train for 16 hours uh to kiev showing the film and then taking a 16 hour train back there's a there's an enormous interest in iran in kiev in in ukraine you know when i was there 2015 or 2016 atlas shrugged was translated into ukrainian and uh it was the best-selling book in ukraine it literally was the number one in the best seller list atlas shrugged great oh man in three volumes uh and you know a few months apart and uh so people finished the first volume and then they were they were sitting there anticipating and and went and bought the second volume and you could get it like in in in supermarket you know how you have in supermarkets the best sellers they were selling atlas shrugged and best sells and then on one of my visits and you might meet these people when you're there on one of my visits um probably maybe 18 2018 um i uh there was a production there was a staging of night of january 16th in ukrainian um and they invited me to come so i said i can't sit through the whole thing in ukrainian i won't understand a word but i went for the final scene and then did a q and a uh on uh on the play uh with them in english and it was it was uh it was fun and there's a couple of people involved in theater over there who are big iron man fans and who level work and have talked about doing all kinds of productions of did they draw the jury out of the audience as usually is done he did be out of the audience and they're amazing you're not guilty not guilty and the the the woman who played um who plays i forget the name of the main female but she looked like such an iron man character i mean she just had that look it really was quite uh so i have very fond memories of cave is a beautiful city you'll see and i have very fond memories of being there meeting people speaking and there are a lot of groups and a lot of individuals that have been inspired by in rand over over the years i think you'll really enjoy it and i think you'll really enjoy the people there i uh i i know i will because i've been talking to them on zoom calls i met one of them in person at an event in california um they really really are um inspiring people um very uh salt of the earth uh very savvy uh just about everything and one thing i'm amazed uh is whether it's uh kiv or or washington dc at an ocon conference wherever i talk about the film uh and the book it's the by far the least known uh book by iron rand and it's such a shame because it's it's really very different than any any of our other books and anybody who admires iron rand really really should read this book um it's it's it's you won't but you if if you're it's hard to explain it's just written in a different way than the other books and it's the most autobiographical of a book so you get a real i think insight into her early years into her youth and what that must have been like to live live in the silvic union yeah another exciting thing that we're doing now is we're developing a program to get the film subtitled in as many languages as possible and especially for countries that have already experienced um authoritarian rule whether it's russia or someone else or are in danger of that happening again we we've seen intense interest from these countries we already licensed uh the country of georgia to show the film we didn't go there for that but we allowed them to have a screening and we did a virtual uh introduction for it uh we were many many other countries it is translated into georgian we have a georgian subtitle version and quite a few other languages in the works including ukrainian and the people that are doing the ukrainian translation are also going to do a russian translation which won't play well in ukraine itself except in certain regions where that's still the only language there and we intend to somehow get the movie into russia at some point uh so russia so there is an audience there it's just a matter of getting it fighting finding it's willing to take on the risk of i will be we uh we intend to get this into at least 40 50 different languages we're already on a way with five or six languages and more in the works and we're developing a separate project to make that all happen we we want i mean there are uh so many people that speak english but there are still billions of people that don't speak english and we want those people to be able to see this film chinese and yeah so we we we're temporarily calling it uh something like the at risk nation project but we're uh going to be uh we it's not fully in place yet but we're going to be gathering money to support getting all these translations made um it's not actually a very complicated process once somebody writes the translation the technical part of making a difference up to how the languages is not hard at all uh but we'll make announcements about that also in our in our newsletter as well as the screenings and the other events coming up what is the hope that this gets streamed at some point here in the united states or anyway in the world oh it will get streamed here we um we wanted to have the distribution company working with us um we didn't want to do this as a self uh we're prepared to do it on our own but um a couple of things we wanted to do first have this distribution company lined up and also to create excitement about the film with events like we're doing uh in these various cities Warsaw and London and other uh cities are coming up i can't announce dates yet because that's not been finalized we're going to it's going to be screened in my nearby hometown of charlotte north carolina in november um and we we've had such wonderful support uh of our of promoting and marketing and so many people have stepped up with these incredibly generous donations earmarked for uh getting the word out buying advertising buying promotion whatever it is so that we so that people see this film that it's not just a beautiful film that nobody hears about and doesn't have a chance to see and we're going to get around the cancel culture problem by putting quite a lot of money into digital advertising uh where they they can locate an audience they have algorithms or whatever to target the audience that would uh we want to make aware of this film and pop up ads on social media and youtube and whatever will inform these people about the movie and that costs money and i'm happy to say that just some one people wonderful people have seen how important this film is and stepped up to help us with that um it's really been exciting right so we will yep sorry no i was going to say you asked about blu-ray that will come down the road um we do also want um to launch big on streaming um i say launch big because the platforms like amazon prime which is a possibility for the film when a movie starts uh and it's not from a big hollywood uh production company if it starts out big and the computers look at how many people are wow suddenly rushing to see this film it becomes a self-fulfilling thing and they promote it more and it's featured more and so we're we're going to have a huge launch uh with lots of digital advertising and lots of promotion that takes a lot of work to set up but we're working on that and the streaming platform launch we expect will be later this year and shortly after that we'll release a blu-ray version of the of the film and that'll have extras on it such as the deleted scenes and again i sorry i keep plugging the the website but all of the announcements and all the things happening are at wetherlivingmovie.com and the newsletter you definitely want to sign up for the newsletter good so let's go we've got we've already gone an hour an hour and 15 so let's let's go to some some questions that we have here um let me just west thank you really appreciate the support there thanks west okay buck asks uh he's he asks has modern scocesa seen the restoration i guess that's in the context of scocesa being a a big fan of classical movie restoration uh big big any chance to get that i'm glad you brought that up because that's uh there's a couple of things related to him that i can tell you about when the original film was being shown to distributors we had a number of screenings in new york around 1988 or so and uh one of his directors of photography came to a screening and came up to me afterwards and said uh martin scorsese is really going to want want to see this film can i get a videotape copy of it and i said well absolutely um and so we gave him we gave this cinematographer a copy and he brought it to scorsese unfortunately i that's the last i heard about it i'm quite certain that he saw the film at that time and then jump ahead to more recent years we made the restoration and of course he has his uh big restoration foundation film foundation and we approached them and it can be so hard to get to the right people and i kept saying when they really didn't you know understand the historic value and the you know what this film meant uh i said you you guys have to understand that martin scorsese himself has seen the film and and from what i hear was a big big fan of uh you know the filmmakers and of course he's italian and he's into restoring films it just seemed like a natural it was a very frustrating that we could never get quite to him we even thought he could be he could sponsor the screening in balonia for the uh and and and if that didn't happen but if all the ironies they put us in a theater called the scorsese room at the several theaters that they had at that festival it still may happen we'll see that'll be cool let's see adam says duncan you are now the world expert in restoration of classic film have you considered teaching a course on film restoration at the film school in luds poland i don't know if that's an inside thing or i uh i would not i might be a world expert on we the living i'll i'll i'll take credit for that but a world expert on restoring film now um i i i learned because i wanted to learn i love the process i loved it sort of like being intimate with the movie and discovering every frame and seeing nuances in the performance that of the actors that you only see after many repeated viewings i mean the first several times you see a movie you're following the story and reading the subtitles and uh but then after many viewings you you start seeing uh uh subtle things i mean uh genuine tears coming out of elita valley's eyes uh in these emotional scenes um some really really wonderful directorial touches uh that i didn't see in initial viewings but after a while i really came to admire the work he did and he was not uh considered one of the top italian directors but i think he did an incredible job at this film it's anyway thank you uh for that um beautiful maybe you've done a phenomenal job of storing it but you know the original was a was a good movie i mean they did they they did uh uh i mean it's well acted it's beautifully acted elita valley is is spectacular uh and uh and yeah and and i think the fact that it's black and white i know people don't wait anymore but uh adds adds to that sense of drama and um it has an important aesthetic to it yeah and uh i think uh some people are not eager to go see a subtitle film they really should try to make an exception for a film like this and we uh also were very careful to make sure the subtitles stayed on as long as possible i have a pet peeve when you're watching a film and the subtitle flashes on for half a second and you're supposed to read it uh so we were very careful uh my associate producer barba scott worked on re making a new production of the subtitles and we we really were careful to make it readable um and leave it on long long enough so that was a big consideration and italian is a beautiful language to listen to even if you don't understand yeah it is for sure so michael asks um it kind of did gibbals and wasillini actually feel threatened by this film uh yes i think we can safely say yes uh garbals um pretty much right away said this this film should not it's it's working against us it's um you cannot they sent the message to italy and to musilini's people that you cannot be running this film uh and that led to the film being banned and ordered destroyed so i think they definitely were threatened by it and you know people oh i didn't i'm glad they brought that up because what they were seeing in italy was where people were being emboldened to be more active in the resistance and the film played some role in that i've had some people say oh come on the film but people were walking around the street with uh but wearing buttons with the pictures of the characters of we the living there were people naming their daughters kira um it it was it was like the gone with the wind uh impact but in italy and but but but yet with a war an influence on the war and they were seeing uh they were being laughed at too the fascists were being laughed at and this just became something they they were not going to tolerate anymore right all right guys we've got like three four questions left so if anybody wants to jump in with additional questions now is the time to do it michael ask were you friends with ayn Rand i wouldn't say that i i work with her i i really enjoyed working with her she um was very uh considerate and uh we it was basically these evenings sitting and and going through the film but she would you know take an interest in what i was doing um i was just dazzled by how quickly she knew exactly what needed to be done with the creative work that we were doing um she really had a very grandmotherly nature it's it's always kind of funny for me to read how she could be intimidating to people but uh and i know she could be but not with that wasn't my experience working on the film uh but no i wouldn't say we were friends we didn't do anything else other than this work together let's see zachary says if you can comment how long do you think a fair copyright would last what copyright would copyright law what do you think if it was fair how long would it last oh fair well and uh it doesn't really matter what i think is fair i mean they they have the laws and we the living will be under copyright and until i think 2090 something um and then it'll be in the public domain the movie because the book will be the book will be in the public domain i need 250 something i think it's so many after the author dies i think yeah and and i might have the year wrong but i know it's well well off in the future and of course the movie was made after the book um was written but um yeah i don't know if i have the exact year but it's certainly well into the future yeah i you'd have to ask a a philosophy of law for for for what they think would be the right number of years but it has to be the death of the artist plus something and what that something is i i think right we can disagree about um all right ever feeling these two questions are for me rather than for you okay i'm gonna do these really quickly guys um apollo asks i brought this up before i want my friend back over an argument what should i do um apologize uh try to you know talk to him again start up the relationship again uh you know i assume you want it back because you feel like you were wrong in the argument or treated him badly so just be honest about it just be open about it just try to try to try to talk talk it through right this this is not um you know depending on how important it is make it a priority go do it right you're not you're not gonna find many friends in life that generally uh you know friends are pretty rare particularly somebody good and and if this was a particularly close friend and work to to make it work and if you want to add anything stuck in but um well i'm just looking at another question coming up about overcoming distribution obstacles um question like that i don't see it okay yeah somebody named oh yeah yeah and then on the super chat okay what help would be welcome to overcome distribution obstacles absolutely go ahead yeah um actually our main focus now is um this new program we're developing to get it into as many languages as possible so everyone around the world can see it i really want to blow this off the charts uh put this into languages that you normally not expect to see it it's already in georgian um and it's other languages but it takes money to hire translators um and we're developing a project and uh if people want to support that there'll be news about it again at the uh in our newsletter at wethelivingmovie.com it's really it's really thrilling to see this play uh when i first started working on the project i envisioned in america and some other english-speaking countries but i've just been blown away about all the interest from other countries and in particular countries that have experienced what it's like to live under russian authoritarianism yeah i i i think you know i'll be in i'll be in georgia um in october so that'll be interesting i'll hopefully hopefully meet some people who've seen it already and uh but i think i think china is such a ripe for for this movie uh because i'm sure the experience is under russian authoritarian under russian authoritarianism the same as the experience under chinese authoritarianism and you might be able to smuggle this in under the radar and get it seen uh after all all the vineyards books are translated into chinese now so in the selling so and your viewers might be interested to know that it actually did run in um moscow in the nineties we were invited to bring it to the moscow film festival i think it was around 1994 um and that was probably at the height of the open period in russia so that was fortunate to be going there at that time um and it was very well received as far as i know that one unfortunate thing happened is when the movie ended uh the translator who was going to tell me the reactions of the people in the audience was nowhere to be found so uh all i could go by was the very uh the looks on the faces and you could tell some people were very uh emotional and very caught up in the story uh i had hoped that the restored version could be brought back there but then we all know what happened one day one day yeah yeah these this tool pass i guess um paul asked would you consider dubbing of the voices for those who don't like subtitles you know uh a while ago i would have said no but i want the film to be seen and i don't agree with people who don't like to read subtitles but if it'll get the film more exposure and more people will see this story i would certainly consider that um it uh i often see films that are not dubbed well and that's one of the concerns i have and usually the actors who um perform the dubbing are not at the caliber of the original actors and that would be a concern but on the other hand uh certainly in schools you're not going to expect them to sit through a three-hour movie with subtitles and to get this seen by uh more people and especially younger people i think it is something uh that that we're going to consider down the road a great question yeah all right last chance guys to ask a question i'll answer this question by michael quickly he says i was watching one of your lectures from 2008 at uc ovine you said a decade or two will have real influence in the culture do you still agree with that projection no i i think i was too optimistic it might might you might want to have to add a decade on to that um a decade and a half away from 2008 and uh the culture doesn't look like it's moving in the right direction so uh yeah i was optimistic in the late 2000 and then in the early 20 teens much more than i am today today i'm much more pessimistic unfortunately because of the political reality we're living through but and on both sides of the aisle so we'll see hopefully uh hopefully things things will change in the next few years and we can go back to being more optimistic all right maybe final question buck asks how can people sign up to stay informed about we the living news paying for the other oh thank you bug so how do you how do you stay informed you just i'll give you another opportunity to pitch the website yeah so that uh thank you thank you for allowing me to do another commercial no really uh the very best way to hear about upcoming events is the newsletter and you can on the we the living movie website you'll find the button to sign up for that newsletter you can also there is a we the living movie facebook page uh we just established a twitter and instagram we the living movie but but frankly i i think and i hope people sign up uh on those other social media platforms but but i think uh to get the get it first and get it with pick all the pictures and not limited like it would be on twitter and so forth is to sign up for the newsletter yeah i just i'm just putting up the um we the living movie dot com is that right right yeah they have to make sure to put the word movie in because there are other websites that say we the living so i have put that up um in the description of the show today so you will be if you didn't write it down uh it's right down there right below um duncans biography is uh is the uh the link to the movie well Duncan this is uh this has been fascinating uh again let me thank you on my behalf and i think my listeners behalf for for doing all this work it it's been quite an adventure for you i'm sure starting back in the in in the late 1960s all the way to today and it's still ongoing so thank you for doing that we're all the beneficiaries of that work so uh very very much appreciate it thank you for having me around this was a pleasure to have time to go into all the detail about this and answer questions uh really enjoyed it and you've been a great uh supporter of the film and uh i've always appreciated that and i will tell you viewers go see the movie but then also make sure to read the book because there is just uh she does something really amazing at the end of the book with uh the character of Kira and her decision at the end and i'm not going to say too much more about it but it's just beautiful writing uh and that's not something that they could really put into a movie but uh people owe it to themselves to read the book as well yeah absolutely i mean the book is the book is is beautiful and touching and interesting and challenging and and i agree with you about the final scene in we the living the book i mean uh it is it is one of the most moving moving sections you'll read in in any any book i totally agree you know yon thank you so much thank you so much and stay safe all right i'll be reporting all about it in pictures and we'll be shooting video and i can't wait to share it with everyone wonderful thanks a lot bye everybody i'll see you guys tomorrow morning for a one of our news roundups bye