 Aloha and welcome to Ehana Kākō. We're here every week on the ThinkTak Hawai'i broadcast network. I'm Kili Iakina, president of the Grassroots Institute. If you've been watching the news and you know that on September 23rd, 2016, the Department of Interior of the federal government issued an announcement in that they said they have come up with a set of rules that would acknowledge a Hawaiian government so that there can be a government-to-government relationship between the Hawaiian people and the United States federal government. Well, in reality, this doesn't establish a Hawaiian government, but just says that the Department of Interior is ready to look at one. A lot has to take place before one could come into existence. Is this good for Hawai'i? Is this good for Hawaiians? Is this a bad thing? We're going to take a look at that and talk about what can be done about it today. I've got Andrew Walden, the publisher of the Hawai'i Free Press with me today. He probably more than anyone in Hawai'i and in media has been tracking this issue, and you can read more about it at HawaiiFreePress.com. But please welcome to the program with me today Andrew Walden. Andrew, aloha. Aloha. So glad to have you on the program today. You've been watching this issue for a long time. Thanks for inviting me. Well, I'm glad you're here. Well, can you explain in layman's terms exactly what the Department of Interior did in its announcement on Friday? There's a lot of confusion about that. The short version is they've created a rule that creates a procedure for a fake Hawaiian Indian tribe to be created. Now the Star Advertiser, if you read it in today's paper with their editorial, kind of praises this and says there's the equivalent of dancing in the streets. Hawaiians would like to have this. But from the data that I've been reading in HawaiiFreePress and elsewhere, that's really not true. Do Hawaiians want to have this kind of tribe? They don't. And if you read all the way to the bottom of the Star Advertiser editorial, the Star Advertiser points out that the only way this can be done is through private funding, thanks to your litigation. And private funding is not available because nobody really believes in this thing. Well, the irony is that the Star Advertiser on the same weekend published its own poll in which it asked whether people were in favor of this federal recognition or not. And the figures show that 51% were outright and opposed. 17% were an additional 11% were opposed and felt that this was meddling by the government in Hawaiian affairs. So 62% are opposed. Another 12% don't understand it. That's 74%. Only 26% of the population think that this is a good idea. Yes. And in the last few years, there's been a sharp drop-off in support for creating an Indian tribe. And there's a lot of different pieces in motion now that could lead to this rule being overturned. Well, over the years, this has gone by different names, such as the Akaka Bill and most recently some other things like the Native Hawaiian Role Commission, Kana'i Oluvalu, Kana'i Alpuni. They're all basically the same thing, right? Yes. And the whole idea is that there should be some kind of government started by the office of Hawaiian affairs or the state of Hawaii that represents Native Hawaiians. In what ways is this like what we see on the mainland in terms of Native American tribes? Well, it is a tribe if we were created. Of course, the big problem is that the U.S. Congress has not recognized any Native Hawaiian tribe, probably because Native Hawaiians aren't Indians and they never have been tribal. And so what you have here is the Department of Interior trying to usurp congressional authority and there's some motion in Congress to respond to this. Two weeks ago, the House Natural Resources Committee started moving House Bill 3764, otherwise known as the Bishop Bill. That was introduced by Representative Bishop. Yes. From what state? From Utah. Utah. And he's the chair of the Natural Resources Committee and so he moved his bill out of the committee and now it's before the U.S. House. That bill had been sitting since December and so he moves this bill just before this rule is announced. I think that probably means that he knew what was coming. Now Representative Bishop has made some strong comments on the announcement by the Department of Interior. What's he basically saying? He says it's unconstitutional usurpation of congressional authority over what is or is not an Indian tribe. The U.S. Constitution is crystal clear on this. The DOI in its rule attempts to claim that Congress already has recognized Hawaiians as an Indian tribe starting with the Hawaiian Homes Commission Act. Well that seems to differ from what the United States Commission on Civil Rights has told President Obama about the definition of an Indian tribe. There are several criteria, aren't there? Yes. It also differs from what everybody in Hawaii knows. I mean, who told us? We didn't know. We've been an Indian tribe since 1921. Well... I didn't know that. But it's in the rule. That's right. And in reality, a Native American Indian tribe, according to federal definition, has to consist of people of one homogenous ethnicity and Hawaiians never define themselves that way, not during the kingdom at all, certainly, and has to have a continuous form of governance and the Hawaiians don't have that either. But let me ask you, why is it that there is so much sympathy in Hawaii on the surface for allowing Hawaiians to have the right to become a federally recognized Indian tribe? I want to say sympathy. In the political elite in Hawaii, they realize that there's a great deal of money here, and there's an opportunity to acquire power and land. And so there's a great deal of interest. But to the average Hawaiian, they're doing poorly, and they don't see the benefits that the insiders are getting. And so what you have is the haves versus the have-nots. But there's another factor which is that the haves themselves are divided, because at the root of this whole thing is the question of a Native Hawaiian settlement over seeded lands. And on one hand, the tribe, if it were created, is set forth to us as the settlement. I see. So there will be some people benefiting from that, but maybe not everybody benefiting. What is the fear on the part of so many Hawaiians or the opposition to a federally recognized tribe? In essence, it's a grab by political insiders for all Native Hawaiian resources. You showed some of this opposition in something you published recently. Apparently, the trustees at the Office of Hawaiian Affairs have been doing surveys for quite some time, back to 1978, when the office was first created, all the way through 2015. They discussed one of these recent surveys recently in January. They don't want to let everybody see it. Somehow you got a copy of a presentation and you published it. What did it show about the Hawaiian sentiment toward having a federally recognized tribe? Well, the way we found out about this is that Robert Lindsey, the chair of OHA, wrote in his column in Naviola that Hawaiians wanted governance to be a bottom of the barrel issue. That's what the commission was the last thing on their list of priorities. In other words, that's what they don't want OHA to be spending its money on. What do they want OHA to be spending its money on instead? Housing, education, real bread and butter type of issues that are affecting Native Hawaiian communities in Hawaii. So the chairman came out and said that's what the trustees have known, and they've known it for a long time. Since 1979, he says that they've been doing surveys like this for the entire existence of OHA. So why in the world have they proceeded to go after this federally recognized tribe knowing that Native Hawaiians don't want it? Because they're not serving the interests of Hawaiians. Lindsey just this weekend completely reversed himself and issues a statement praising the DOI rule. Interestingly, none of the other OHA trustees have signed on in any public way. Kamana Krav. Kamalapono Krav, the executive director and president. OHA as an organization hasn't signed on. And so Lindsey's out there alone just pumping this message out via OHA's Twitter feed because there's money in it for the political insiders like him. And so other Hawaiians answer the surveys and say, you know, there's nothing in this for us and they're right. It seems as though many of the Native Hawaiian leaders in government are actually jumping off the bandwagon for federal recognition at this time. And I suppose the trustees have got to live down now the fact that they've been promoting it and spending tens of millions of dollars on it because the public is clearly not in favor of pursuing this and Hawaiians aren't indeed. Yeah, one of the ways this rule can be defeated is through political means and a lot of that defeat has already occurred. Iapuni is dissolved. They attempted to raise money for this and they failed. There's no reason to believe that the final rule would change the dynamic on raising money. So even though Hawaiian institutions have plenty of money to spend, if they choose, they choose not to spend it on this. So you mentioned that a way of defeating this would be through political means by which you mean elections. We have an election coming up in November the 8th and let me ask you more broadly than more broadly than that. What other means? The political means is simply not funding it. Of course the downside to that is the final DOI rule is on the books. It will be on the books ten years from now or a hundred years from now or two years from now or whenever unless a subsequent administration takes it off the books or unless the bishop bill reverses it or unless litigation reverses it. What is the likelihood that there is going to rise up an entity that could fulfill the rules of the Department of Interior and present itself as the government of the Hawaiian people? I'd have to say it's not very likely at all right now because the attempt has just been made and has failed. It's probably at an all-time low, I would suggest. Yes, this is much lower than it's been in the past. It's been several years since any version of the Econkabill was in the U.S. Congress. In the past you would see the entire Hawaii congressional delegation signing a common statement supporting this thing, but here today we only have shots and gathered sending out statements. Hirono has said exactly nothing. Colleen Hanabusa is running for office and is expected to win in CD1. She has not released any statement endorsing this even though she is probably one of the biggest advocates for the Indian tribe of all. Now there's a growing chorus it seems in the Native Hawaiian community amongst folks that aren't in government and in particular those who advocate the Hawaiian kingdom or independence. This growing chorus is standing up and saying let's oppose this federal recognition. They use terms like the one we use in the title of the show today, fed-reck with a W. Yes, there were protests as the rule was being released at Iolani Palace. There have been protests on Kauai, there have been protests in Hilo. A lot of people don't want this thing. And it's more than sovereignty activists. People who are not sovereignty activists see that the federal recognition agenda is an incredible waste of money. OHA trustee Lea Huisa said that $33 million of OHA trust funds have been wasted on federal recognition. And meanwhile Native Hawaiians are living in tents on the beach. And so how does this benefit the average person? The answer is it doesn't. It benefits the Hawaiian political insiders who want to get some for themselves. So people are starting to see the disconnect between Hawaiians on the beaches or going without healthcare and having some of the worst numbers in terms of social demographics on one hand and yet this huge amount of money going to these political campaigns to support federal recognition. You're saying that people are starting to see the disparity between these two. Yes, in the Atlantic over the weekend Robin Danner. And who's Robin Danner for those who don't know? The Committee on Council on Native Hawaiian Advancement, the Shah, she basically said that this is part of a plan to change the Hawaiian homeland's blood quantum to 132nd so that more Native Hawaiians will have houses. Which is kind of ironic because she did just evict her own sister from her Hawaiian homeland's house just a few months ago. That's quite a remarkable statement there because I think traditionally the number has been about 50% of Hawaiian blood to acquired Native Hawaiian homes. And you're saying she's advocating reducing it to 132nd? Yes. Well as far as I know, based on Oha's own figures there are at least 550,000 Hawaiians across the country and that number is proliferating because they're getting married and children are being born and so forth. This means that virtually everybody would be able to get a Hawaiian homeland. How can that possibly be with the limited land base? Well if I was 50% Hawaiian I'd be wondering how diluted my interest is and how much further down the wait list I would just get bumped if Robin Daner gets her way. It's a power grab and it's a way of creating mead which then she leads. Well that's a good segue to a break now because you pointed out clearly that the advocates for federal recognition are those who are seeking power and the people in Hawaii seem to be tired of that. When we come back for a break let's focus then on what the people of Hawaii and native Hawaiians have to do if we want to stop this power grab and stop the drain on money. My guest today is the publisher of Hawaii Free Press, Andrew Walden, which you can read online anytime at hawaiifreepress.com. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Kiriti Akina on Te Hana Kako on the Think Tech Hawai'i broadcast network. Don't go away. Hi I'm Stacy Hayashi and you can catch me on Mondays at 11 on Think Tech Hawai'i. Stacy to the rescue. See you then. Hello this is Martin Despeng. I want to get you get excited about my new show which is Humane Architecture for Hawaii and Beyond. We're going to broadcast on Tuesdays 5 p.m. here on Think Tech Hawai'i. Aloha, I'm Kaui Lucas, host of Hawaii is my mainland every Friday here on Think Tech Hawai'i. I also have a blog of the same name at kauilukas.com where you can see all of my past shows. Join me this Friday and every Friday at 3 p.m. Aloha. Hi my name is Aaron Wills you are watching ThinkTechHawaii.com. I am the host of the show Rehabilitation Coming Soon. You can watch us live at ThinkTechHawaii.com at 11 a.m. on Tuesdays. I will see you there. Welcome back to A Hana Kako. We're here every week on the Think Tech Hawai'i broadcast network and I'm Kiriti Akina. At the Grassroot Institute we like to say A Hana Kako. That's based upon a venerable old Hawaiian saying a Pule Kako which means let us pray kako together. That's an activity that engages everyone. Well we like to say at the Grassroot Institute A Hana Kako. Let's work together because think of the terrible alternative if we don't work together in society to build a better government, a better economy, nothing gets done and so that's what we dedicate the show to. Today we've got somebody who is helping people work together. It's Andrew Walden who brings to the forefront information on issues that is rarely available in the mainline media and you can read what he writes and presents at hawaiifreepress.com. Now back to the issue of what the federal government has recently done which is issue through the Department of Interior a set of rules by which there can be a government-to-government relationship between Native Hawaiians and the federal government should Native Hawaiians actually organize and want to have this. Andrew in the first segment we talked about what's wrong with this and why so many Native Hawaiians and the general public are opposed to it. Well you mentioned it's about power brokers actually trying to grab from more power so what is it that we can do? I think you mentioned several things and one of them at the top is a bill that's currently being circulated in its early form in Congress now the Bishop Bill. Let's get back to that and tell us what that is and what needs to happen there. U.S. House Resolution 3764 people should look it up they should follow it it's now in motion and has been for the last two weeks and it reasserts congressional authority over the recognition of Indian tribes and that would circumvent the DOI rule because the DOI rule in essence claims that the DOI can administratively recognize Indian tribes which is not what the U.S. Constitution says. So Hawaiians are not an Indian tribe they don't want to be regarded as an Indian tribe and so you're saying that if this plan of the Department of Interior goes forward Congress will be actually shunted that is it's only Congress that can recognize nations or Indian tribes but this bill circumvents that. Right and so not the bill but these rules circumvent that. The DOI rule circumvents that the House Resolution 3764 defeats the rule. Now isn't this the same Congress that ultimately let the Akaka Bill die the Akaka Bill which had promoted the idea of a federally recognized Indian tribe Hawaiians as such I think about 13 years it was being advocated for there and then with the retirement of Senator Akaka the passing away of Senator Noye it's pretty much not gone anywhere. Right the most interesting thing about the history of the Akaka Bill is that at the one moment when Dan and Noye had the opportunity to pass it through both the House and the Senate and get it to Obama's desk they suddenly stopped and spent the entire two years rewriting it at the behest of Robin Danner and then the entire effort collapsed and so one has to wonder if Dan and Noye really ever wanted the Akaka Bill it's an interesting question unfortunately he took the answer to his grave but the need is more interesting than the solution and more politically useful to some people. Now there's less support for this thing than there appears. Now the Bishop Bill which opposes the DOI rules is being put forth by a representative from the state of Utah and not being put forth by Hawaii's congressional delegation and that would suggest this especially in light of the fact that Congress doesn't like to act against a home states delegation this would suggest that Congress may see a national issue here in preventing the proliferation of Indian tribes. Is there a national issue that they're looking at? Yeah the national issue is that the Obama administration has taken the position that the executive branch can by fiat recognize tribes it's not just the Hawaiian tribe it's other tribes as well and so Congress is reasserting its rights. So it's a fundamental balance of powers issue where Congress is saying this is unconstitutional for a president to have such executive overreach. Yeah well I think that could get the attention of a lot of people what can people do if they want to support the action of congressman Abisham? People from Hawaii should let all congressmen not just their own delegation but the entire Congress know that they'd like to see action on 3764 and that they believe that only Congress has the authority to recognize Indian tribes. Well there's another pathway that you mentioned and that is litigation and there has been a history of litigation related to the formation of a native Hawaiian tribal entity by the state. What do you see as potential here in terms of responding to the Department of Interior rules? Well the rule is unconstitutional it serves Congressional authority. So how to structure litigation challenging that is an interesting question that I think that quite a few attorneys are working on right now. We don't have the answer to that question yet but that's certainly a possibility. Your litigation is still before the courts and there may be a relevant angle here. You're referring to the case called Akina versus the state of Hawaii and we've talked about that on this program before but you would be referring you're referring with regard to any litigation against the Department of Interior to something completely different. You've had an opportunity to take a look at the actual rules written and issued by the Department of Interior. Is there anything there that in your mind kind of screams out and says sue me? Anything that they have put in there beyond simply the usurping of Congressional authority? Well the key thing is the claim that Congress has already recognized a Hawaiian Indian tribe starting with the Hawaiian Home Submission Act. No one in Hawaii knew this since 1921 but according to this rule we've had an Indian tribe since 1921. So that's one way of reading it. That may create a cause for action for the US Congress. Now many people often confuse something done under President Clinton the apology resolution with this notion of the establishment or recognition of a Hawaiian government. Maybe you could clear that up because this apology resolution would have nothing to do with that. In 1993 one of the first things that Bill Clinton did after he was elected president is signed the apology resolution. The Office of Hawaiian Affairs used the apology resolution as justification to block a Wahe administration affordable housing plan to build affordable housing in Lahaina and Kailua Kona which are two of the most expensive places on the sister house and they litigated that oh ha litigated against this affordable these affordable housing projects for 14 years until the very political Hawaii State Supreme Court finally decided to make a snap ruling on it and that forced the lingo administration which was in office at 14 years later to appeal to the US Supreme Court which ruled that the apology resolution was merely a symbolic statement and it did not have actual force and therefore could not be the basis of oh ha's litigation against use of the ceded lands for affordable housing. Apparently oh ha wanted a more profitable brass and marble resorts and less homes for native Hawaiians and other people who make blue-collar incomes and that's the kind of problem that is what people are looking at when they look at federal recognition is it's a gift for the insiders at the expense of the outsiders and the result of much of the claims is that native Hawaiians themselves suffer in order to advance the claim. It suffers people suffer in terms of jobs people suffer in terms of housing and the cost of living. One of the reasons that the cost of housing in Hawaii is through the roof is because of these claims that makes it very difficult to build houses. So you've mentioned two ways in which people can respond in order to oppose the DOI rules one is Congress, the Bishop Bill, the second is litigation and a variety of approaches could ensue at this point. Now the third you've mentioned is political and that is really the favor with which this idea stands in the Hawaiian community and elsewhere. What needs to happen politically? Some of the things that need to happen politically already are happening. This project is being defeated in the political sphere. There is no private money for it. Your litigation prevented the Naipunni crowd from using oh ha money and so they have now dissolved Naipunni and they have appealed to Hawaiian institutions to give them money so that they can hold an election as mandated by the DOI rules and the money is not forthcoming. And as we noted in the first segment that there is a real dropping off of favor actually there has never been an overwhelming desire on the part of Native Hawaiians to have federal recognition and that's becoming more and more known and voiced more frequently. Andrew we've come to the last minute if anybody wants to get more information about this or even provide you with some information what do they need to do? I can be reached to editor at HawaiiFreePress.com and people should go check out HawaiiFreePress.com for the latest updates. Well very good well Andrew thank you for keeping us informed appreciate having you on the program. Aloha. Aloha. My guest today Andrew Walden the publisher of Hawaii Free Press is tracking all kinds of issues that are of interest to people who care about keeping our freedoms here in Hawaii and advancing the ideas of the free market as well as transparent and limited a government and you can again read the Hawaii Free Press online at HawaiiFreePress.com you can even sign up to be on the emailing of a summary of news issues that comes out every weekend. Until next week I'm Keli Hakeena with the Grass Root Institute we're here every Monday on Ehana Kako on the Think Tech Hawaii broadcast network. Aloha.