 Welcome to my YouTube channel. My name is Caroline Strawson and I'm a trauma-informed therapist and coach, really on a mission to help you heal narcissistic abuse through a trauma-informed lens. Now my episode today was with an interview with Professor Sam Vaknen. Now Sam is author of Malignant Self-Love Narcissism Revisited and we had well really a two-hour interview. What was scheduled as maybe 45 minutes just went on and we had just the best conversation and it was really really interesting and we recorded the whole lot for you so you're going to see the sort of live raw unedited version of all of this because then you can see the questions that I was asking Sam, some of the comments that he was making and a lot of the stuff in the line of work that I do I completely agree with him. However there were some things that I challenged him on because I approach everything very much through that trauma-informed lens so rather than really looking at the pathology of things which I know Sam really agrees with me as well we were looking at some other elements. Now I will warn you there will be some trigger warnings through all of this particularly towards the end of the interview. We talked a lot about being a victim and victimhood and that was probably the one thing that I perhaps disagreed with Sam about about maybe our approach to how we perceive people who have been victimized by narcissists. It was just a fascinating interview and I hope you really really enjoy it I'd love to know what your comments are around this. Sam even gave me a compliment and said I asked some really really good questions because I literally felt like as I was talking to him I thought oh yeah I'd love to know this what are your thoughts on that because obviously I work with those who are victimized by narcissistic abuse and Sam was actually the first person to coin the phrase narcissistic abuse recovery so it was really fascinating with all of his decades of work and academia around this and also his own personal experience of how we could really talk and really try and shift people of how they perceive narcissism narcissistic personality disorder both of us are in a lot of agreement around the DSM and the pathologizing of all of this and almost dehumanization of it so it was a really interesting interview I hope you really enjoy it we've said we'll have a follow-up one as well so it is almost two hours long so maybe go and grab yourself a coffee or a cuppa or something so you can sit and watch all of this or maybe watch it in chunks it's entirely up to you but I hope you really enjoy it and please any comments or questions or anything maybe next time I interview Sam you'd maybe like me to ask him as well that I would love to share that with you but I hope you can see you know my real passion for you watching this is to know that aid there is hope secondly you're not on your own I believe you and I've been exactly where you are now and equally that how you feel right now isn't your fault this is your nervous system responding to your perceived threat of danger so enjoy the interview let me know any feedback and I have to say a big thank you and lots of gratitude to Sam for allowing me to spend that time with him to interview him quiz him challenge him asking all of those questions so enjoy the interview and I'll catch up with you in the next episode on my youtube channel but please again if you haven't hit like and subscribe please do so hit the bell because then you will get all of the next episodes jumping into your inbox as well so enjoy now a lot of people will want to know certainly from my audience is where this passion comes for you to talk about narcissism and personality disorders you know where does this come from because I know this is really what what you focus on and you have this real passion right I've been doing this for 26 years I've seen on your website that you are a narcissistic abuse coach correct and narcissistic abuse is a phrase that I coined in 1995 and I thought when we were having that conversation about all of that I mean if it's and this is why I'm really interested obviously in talking to you because we use this word now very fluidly in our society sometimes correctly very often incorrectly as well and I think again the approach I come is very from a trauma informed perspective in order this that's why I'm really interested in talking to you around this because 26 years is a long time to be studying this yes indeed I when I when I started the whole thing in 95 there was nothing online I maintained the first website and the first six support groups for victims and that that had lasted for nine years I was all alone for nine years there was absolutely no one else I had but more importantly I had to invent the entire language of most most of the language that is in use today because there were no words there were no words to describe what was happening and you know in the absence of words there's no consciousness words create consciousness people were grappling in the dark trying to trying to convey and communicate why their experiences are idiosyncratic why their experiences are unique they're not like typical abuse something else is happening and they lack the words so I rummaged through psychoanalytic literature and I picked up phrases like for sale from winnichode I picked up narcissistic supply from fenico but I was still short I was still short of many words so I had to come up with my own words so for example devaluing discard or somatic narcissists or cerebral narcissists or narcissistic abuse itself or hovering or flying monkeys we need a narcissistic dictionary don't we yes we do we do because the experience of narcissistic abuse is like nothing else I'm a professor of psychology I teach personality disorders in general and I teach trauma I teach neuroscience of trauma and psychology of trauma and I can tell you that there is nothing which comes close to narcissistic abuse and if you're interested I will I will elucidate why but I would love to hear more about that because I think what you highlight is something that even when there was nothing out there about this and even though now there is stuff there about this there is this complete lack of understanding of how someone feels when they are going through narcissistic abuse narcissistic trauma and and I just think those people you are working with over those nine years for instance you know they had nothing and what they must have been going I mean you know it's hard enough nowadays anyway but back then as well absolutely horrible within the first year within the first year of my presence online I've I've written my book in 95 then I placed it online free of charge and then in 90 by 97 that's one and a half years later I've had 250 000 members in support groups that's when there was no internet I mean there was literally no internet I understood the extent the enormous extent of distress and even to this very day in my view narcissistic abuse perhaps like most human experiences is not communicable in its essence and what's amazing about narcissistic abuse is each experience is unique is tailor made is customized typical abuse because abuse is a topic that's been in the headlines for 80 years at least first cases of abuse had been had been described by Freud himself in the in the you know 100 years ago 110 years ago but abuse tend to be a cookie cookie cutter phenomenon all abusers are molded you know they they use the mold it's they're all the same narcissists tailor the abuse they don't only tailor the abuse but narcissistic abuse is what I call total abuse total abuse means that the narcissist targets every dimension every vector every aspect of everything your personality your life your friendships your family your past history your confidence confidences your information that he leverages against you legal aspects financial aspects the children community property I mean you name it narcissistic abuse is like the disorder itself or pervasive yeah so why do you think that happens why do you think then narcissistic abuse is so different than to other types of abuse so like you say it's almost like you know other abusers so to speak you know from a sort of trauma informed perspective we can kind of look at like you say this cookie cutter approach of how it happens why they're doing it what happens with the victims etc why is it so different than with narcissists because narcissists are supposed to typical abusers don't regard what they're doing is abuse here's the thing the narcissist relates to his intimate partner not as an external object but as an internal object he snapshots he takes a snapshot of the partner and then he photoshopps the snapshot and this process is called idealization so he refers from the first minute actually he begins to refer to an idealized internal object within his mind and this internal object in his mind starts interacting with other internal objects in his mind preceding preceding his intimate partner his mother his father peers influential figures and so on and so the narcissist lives inside his mind and he manipulates the internal objects and he coerces them into dialogues and interactions and so on and you are not an external object so he does not perceive as is he does not perceive anything he does as abusive he perceives he perceives it as a mode of communication or a mode of control or a mode of securing making sure that there will be no ultimate abandonment narcissists have abandonment anxiety and that's so interesting Sam because I think you know a lot of what I talk about and I think this is kind of what you're saying as well is that intention versus impact you know the intention of a narcissist isn't necessarily to abuse their victims so to speak it's like you say it's all about within it's about you know not feeling abandoned not feeling worthless but the impact of that intention then is it becomes abusive to the person that they are perpetuating that too that's very true and in this sense of course the narcissist is distinct distinct from other personality disorders for example the borderline when she when she anticipates abandonment or rejection or humiliation let alone when she's actually rejected or humiliated or abandoned the borderline switches into a mode of behavior which is essentially secondary psychopathy not primary psychopathy secondary psychopathy secondary psychopath is a psychopath who has empathy and emotions so she becomes a secondary psychopath but and she dissociates of course what she's doing but she is intentional she wants to inflict harm she wants to punish she wants revenge she wants restoration of a sense of of justice and equilibrium she is goal oriented the psychopath is the same the psychopath is goal oriented so is the paranoid so is the schizoid the only the only personality disorder of all 12 the only personality disorder which is not goal oriented in the sense that the narcissist is not hell bent on inflicting abuse nor nor does he statistically enjoy his actions contrary to myths online yeah so the narcissist is so focused on his needs on on on for example the need to avoid abandonment the need to regulate his sense of self-worth the need to to forestall depression or modulability etc he's so focused on his needs that you are collateral damage the intimate partner is just a by-product what's done to the intimate partner is a side effect and the intimate partner is collateral damage the narcissist has to in the narcissist invests all his energy all his mental resources in maintaining the precarious house of cards which is a narcissistic personality he has nothing left to give you he's depleted he's depleted from the first minute he gets out of bed he's utterly depleted he's in a state of constant unmitigated exhaustion and he's nothing left to give you and so if you make demands for instance or have expectations then you are threatening this balance this equilibrium that he had worked so hard to maintain and you become a threat you become a menace from a true perspective then that threat that danger then obviously just regulates their nervous system and they're going to react accordingly there they of course have a flight of fight reaction actually to you when similarly when you display autonomy personal autonomy when you show your independence this is a threat because it it it heralds it's a harbinger of ultimate abandonment the narcissist interprets your independence and autonomy as a signal i'm about to abandon you i'm about to go away moreover when you are when you are being you simply you not ostentatiously not conspicuously just being you you diverge and deviate from the internal object from the snapshot these divergences between you and your representation your inner representation in the narcissist's mind these divergences create what we call dissonance and the dissonance creates anxiety so any display of autonomy or independence or even mere existence any reminder that you exist outside his mind provokes in the narcissist enormous anxiety and he needs to ameliorate and control this anxiety by reducing you into an object into a mummy mummy find you hence when the isolation comes into play they almost want to isolate you so you need them and that obviously then calms their system with all of us so what makes them so when we think about all the other personality disorders in this then sam what makes the narcissist then so different why is the narcissist so different then from the other personality disorders i like your questions now to the point on the highlight important issues i think the difference between i never give compliments just a commentary on the interview i'm going to take that for a moment and let that sorry about that the difference the difference between the narcissist and other personality disorders perhaps with the exception of the borderline because kernberg for example auto kernberg believed had believed in the 70s that narcissism and borderline are actually indistinguishable disorders on a spectrum but indistinguishable and both of them are on the verge of psychosis and that's why he called it borderline it's on the border between neurosis and psychosis but narcissism borderlines are the only ones with what we call a schizoid empty core so in the 1960s there was a school of thought in psychology and was called the british the british object relation school and we had fair baron we had gun trip we had win a cot we and much much later we had seinfeld and so on and they were the british school and what they had said is that there's an emptiness where a human being should have been there's an emptiness where a person should have been and this is the empty core of the narcissist and the borderline and i will not go right now into the reasons why this empty core forms it has to do with with not good enough parenting or wrong upbringing or what what andrei green called a dead mother andrei green described a dead mother that's a mother with absent selfish uh parentifies the child etc etc and so these children do not form a self they have no self a young called this process constellation so these children don't have a constellated self moreover and that's the irony narcissists don't have an ego narcissists are ego less not egotists they're ego less they don't have an ego and there is there are two reasons why they don't have an ego first of all they're isolated from reality many narcissists are pampered and smothered and spoiled and put on a pedestal and that they don't have object relations in other words narcissists and borderlines and so on didn't go through the phases of interacting with other people other than mommy other than oneself so in the absence of friction with reality and in the absence of friction with other people that this lack of input rendered the narcissists and the borderline selfless in ironically or ego less and so what they need to do they need you to serve as an intimate partner they need you to serve as a surrogate self as a substitute ego and and as a good enough mother these are your roles your roles are to regulate the ego functions of the narcissists your role is to serve as an external memory of the narcissists because the narcissist is dissociative can't his memory is short is discontinuous he needs you to maintain the continuity and above all he needed to act as a good enough mother so that he finally can experience proper parenting or proper mothering and he pushes you he coerces you he co-ops you he manipulates you into these positions and if for some reason you refuse you bolt you push back you become the enemy this is not about this is not about adulating him adulating him only actually the narcissist wants you to admire him as a mother would he wants you to look at him he wants you to to give him the gaze of a mother now of course every mother admires her son or daughter admires a kid he's a kid and he wants you to love him and admire him as a mother would unconditionally so he tests you he tests he wants to make sure that you are a good mother so he misbehaves like a toddler would to try and like a toddler would yeah testing those but I mean I do a lot of internal family systems in the work I do so what you're talking about that again it just reinforces that that lack of self and then the protector parts are coming up to try and distract soothe numb out like dissociating from feeling the pain of that lack of self and and again that can come out from the victims of narcissistic abuse that can also come out in many different formats the same for a narcissist but actually the ultimate just as you were saying in all of that is that lack of self that danger of of that core wound not wanting to feel like that and desperately then looking to soothe that wound that lack of self yeah you've mentioned internal family system where the self plays a very critical role it's a problem to apply internal family system to a narcissist precisely because they they don't have a dysfunctional cell they don't have a self it's like if they've got a false self in some respect yes but the false self is not a self it's a very unfortunate phrase by donald by donald dwennecott it's it's not a self it's not a self in any sense by the way for example the false self is the opposite of the ego the ego the ego's main role is reality testing the main role of the ego is to get to international reality so that we have feedback that tells you which actions you should avoid and which actions are proper that's the main role of the ego the false self does exactly the opposite removes you from reality isolates you from and falsifies reality for you creates in other words a fantastic space the false self is a fantasy defense writ large it has nothing to do with the self or with the ego so it's a very unfortunate phrase what you highlight there is how things then do get misinterpreted so again from that internal family systems i suppose people use that language because they're trying to help other people then gain a sense of understanding but actually from an academic perspective like we say it's incorrect but do we say that then because it makes the victims feel better about it or or are we doing disservice then because actually it's not the actual facts of the situation so again from the internal family systems the protector parts so to speak become how the narcissist will live their life just the same as other people will then live their life and i suppose that term false sense of self you know is that we create these things to try and make people feel feel better and i think again when we could talk for so long about all of this sam is are we using language incorrectly and are we even from the term of medicalizing narcissistic personality disorder and all these other disorders are we doing the disservice in doing that as well because are we actually then looking at root cause trauma and all of that elements you know that doesn't mean it excuses behavior but it gives an explanation so is the dsm there then to explain to excuse or to give us a semblance of understanding but actually is that the reality of the understanding of all of this no i i hold a very dim view of most of the texts that pertain to narcissism starting of course with the diagnostic and statistical manual which is still very categorical so it's a list of lists correct and i'm a list of lists and i'd love you to talk more about that because i feel exactly the same i feel like it's a way of professionals to diagnose something as a symptomatic of something as opposed to root cause and then supporting people on you know maybe the etiology the etiology is totally missing in the dsm correct the dsm is a symptom symptomatology and behavior behavior observations but etiology is missing dynamics is missing totally non-dynamic it's a static book they're trying now with the alternative models they have alternative models they're trying at the very end page 767 they're trying somehow yeah i've seen that being brought in a bit more with with narcissism as well you know bringing in more of that cova element and you know element of that very much more dysregulation as opposed to just the nine traits and everything yeah so i i'm holding a very very dim view language breaks down how do you how do you describe a non-entity yes language breaks down our language language is predicated on existence we deal with objects we deal with people we deal with entities it's entity based language breaks down and and i find it very useful to borrow from zen buddhism or from when i when i try to to relate to narcissism now of course if you look at internal family system then the false self has rescuer functions and protective functions but when you look at transactional analysis the there's the child the adult yeah and so so of course you can borrow metaphors yeah from a variety of you know this discipline discipline approaches yeah but these are metaphors that's a problem it's one step removed yeah it's not the essence it's an allegory and allegories can only go so far i can talk to you now about psychopathy and i'll be touching the essence of the psychopath i'll be touching his his real core i'll be touching him i can talk to you about borderline and i'll be touching her i'll be really really really talking about her describing her and i've posted a series of videos about borderline in the comments women mostly both diagnosis borderline personality disorders they say yes you're describing me yes that's me because i can touch the core because that's the essence it's extremely difficult to do with narcissism how do you how do you do discuss meaningfully emptiness what is the sound of one hand clapping in the forest yeah it's it's a great problem language breaks down simply so do you think then that in an ideal world we shouldn't have the dsm we shouldn't diagnose we should look at more root cause and do you think then from a narcissism perspective then because again it's a word we hear much much more now i know social media obviously holds one of those reasons but do you think as well there are more narcissists in the world now than there were 20 years ago 40 years ago 100 years ago or do you think it is always been there and the same roughly amounts of people in the world or do you actually think that it is becoming more prevalent now and why if so well first of all there are alternatives to the dsm for example i strongly recommend the pdm which is the psychodynamic diagnostic manual pdm is very deep it includes the dynamic aspects it includes the theologies and so on regrettably it is limited to one way of looking at psychology which is the psychodynamic psychotherapies so that's regrettable but it's far preferable to the dsm had i if i had my way which would have pleased me no end what i would have done i would have created a diagnostic manual based on literature so when if i wanted if i wanted to describe psychosis i would have borrowed writings from tostoyevsky if i wanted to describe um a certain types of narcissists i would have i would have borrowed bazooka from war and peace tolstoys war and peace i would have compiled the diagnostic manual entirely borrowing from works of literature because no one had better insight more penetrating insight than authors of fiction good authors of fiction no one no one comes close to these and of course Freud was was much more an author than a psychologist do you think that's because they have more of a skill of using word to explain as opposed to maybe other people who aren't approaching it necessarily from the perspective of the reader the understanding they're approaching it from a different dynamic i think there are two reasons actually first of all rightly noted the writing words language is the skill of authors not the skill of psychologies and the barrier of language is insurmountable because psychology is a form of literature it's not a science it can never be a science and as a form of literature it's very lacking the texts the texts are badly written the texts do not convey too many things they are so the lacunas and deficiencies in the text in the in the scriptures of psychology because it's a it's a bit religious it's a bit of a religion that's the first thing the second thing is psychology psychology has an aspiration to science psychology is a wannabe science yeah and all psychologists pretend that they are physicists which i am by the way i have a doctorate in physics so all psychologists pretend that they are physicists and so they take this position i'm just observing i'm an observer i'm cool-headed i'm analytical i collect numbers and then i analyze them statistically and that puts me on power on power with physicists and mathematicians because i use statistics this cartesian detachment there is the patient and there is me and i have nothing in common with the patient i'm just observing him as i would observe an insect a curious insect this detachment is a hindrance it's an obstacle and it does not exist in the writings of Dostoyevsky Dostoyevsky identified with his characters he penetrated them via insight and via identification he became them and the only psychologist that comes to mind who had attempted this is R. D. Lane L. A. I. N. G. this is the only only one and maybe Carl Rogers maybe Carl Rogers with humanistic psychology they're the only ones i think and all the others were playing at being scientists pseudoscientists so when we talk about that because obviously if you think about those then on the whole as a society in general you know i know we've obviously got psychiatrists as well but from a psychology perspective then from a diagnosis you know those then that are victims of a narcissist and those who are a narcissist how do we move forward in a society then how do we support those who've been you know words we use abused by a narcissist but then the narcissist doesn't necessarily think it's abuse going back to the intention and impact again so how do we do that do we look for diagnosis do we look for a different way of looking at those who've been involved with a narcissist do we look more at trying to support a narcissist through all this because again you know i've never seen any research certainly from my perspective where i've seen a narcissist has been diagnosed with NPD to then go on and leave lead a really flourishing life with really deep meaningful relationships i've not read anything about that i know there are things out there for improvements etc etc but i haven't necessarily seen anything you know and you'll laugh at this i had i remember having a big debate with somebody a while ago actually a lady who was a um prison officer and she was saying we've been working with lots of narcissists in the prison and we can heal them you know we're curing them we're really helping them and everything and i said can you just tell me then what is the consequence of them looking like and perceiving that there is improvement well they can get released early and she couldn't get her head around then that actually could it possibly be that they're so manipulative that they can see the consequences of therapy with you to get the result that they want and and i think as a society we want to think of people to be able to be healed and get better and cure and everything else and i think that probably lies in the problem in some respects so you know if we're looking at the victim and the narcissist themselves how do we collaborate this in our society today so that when someone says i'm dealing with a narcissist people don't get the eye rolling no one believes you etc and that actually makes the victim feel even worse and devalued but equally then an understanding from a narcissist perspective not to excuse behavior but to give a level of explanation generally there's a medicalization and labeling of the human condition we have isolated traits and behaviors we have amalgamated them into syndromes and we label them and then we medicalize them yeah and this tendency is regrettable counterproductive because it puts people in boxes and because it it tempers with the minds and we don't know enough about the mind we don't know enough about the mind let alone about the brain we know close to nothing and so this is this is narcissistic grandiosity actually of the part of professionals that's one one commentary you asked me if there are many more narcissists than used to be i don't think so i think there's a growing awareness i think there is economic incentive to identify people as narcissists both by professionals and by the cottage industry that has sprung around narcissists narcissism narcissistic abuse and so on no offence meant non so so there's an economic incentive of course to aggrandize the problem or shed light upon it or put it in the limelight it's when i don't think um i don't think it's the the the core clinical entity is any different than it had been let's say 2000 or 5000 years ago what i do think is happening is that people don't realize that narcissism is a positive adaptation but the logical narcissism had allowed the child to survive in very adverse circumstances allowed the child to emerge as a relatively functioning individual and so the child is very the child turned adult is very unlikely to give up on this positive adaptation because it had kept him alive he's emotionally attached he's affected he's emotionally invested in his in his condition other people regard it other people regard it as a disorder he doesn't yeah he regards it as an evolutionary advantage and a personal adaptation which was very positive hence why we don't get many diagnoses because a diagnosis comes from someone saying hey i think i have a problem i'm gonna get a diagnosis and of course like just as you highlight if they don't think they have a problem why would they go and seek a diagnosis it's much worse it's not that they don't think they have a problem it's they think they have an advantage yeah they perceive their narcissism as the next step in the evolutionary ladder narcissism made them resilient and strong and survivors and here's the here's here's the breakdown in communication between victims and narcissists narcissists are abuse victims yes they're victims of abuse correct i agree yeah they're victims of abuse who had chosen settled upon a specific solution others have settled upon codependency others have settled upon borderline others have settled upon i love that analogy i just think you know i hope the listeners take that in it's a you know from a codependence borderline narcissism it's an adaptation to protect ourselves from feeling pain yeah yeah it is and victims of abuse should understand that we are all in the victim community this is a single victim community it's not victims against narcissists it's a single victim community in which some of the victims had adopted abrasive antisocial behaviors so we need to focus on these behaviors not on any alleged disorder or condition because recent studies starting with Judith Herman who had coined coined the phrase complex trauma or complex post-traumatic stress disorder so she's a bit of an authority on the topic shall we say Judith Herman herself says that there is no distinction between a CPTSD victim a complex trauma victim and a narcissist or a borderline yeah which makes DSM then just like you say you could almost look at the DSM and go yeah complex PTSD yes so today today there's a big drive and probably it's gonna happen yeah there's a big drive to amalgamate and to convert borderline personality disorder into a post-traumatic condition and there's a similar drive going on for example in Australia and so on the drive that I must say I initiated 25 years ago to reconceive of personality disorders especially class to be as post-traumatic conditions and the minute we do this victims can develop inner peace so on that then because I know people will be listening to this thinking oh you're given a lot of air time to the narcissist here we're almost starting to feel sorry for the narcissist but look at what they did to me look at what they do to other people so almost in response to that then how do we then amalgamate just as you were saying that knowledge of knowing it it's abusive with behaviors but also trying to gain a level of understanding without almost denigrating and devaluing the experience of somebody who has been the victim of narcissistic abuse first of all it's politically incorrect to say but studies by Judith Herman and many others have led to the conclusion that victims of abuse become abusers yeah actually the vast majority well over 80 percent of victims of abuse engage in narcissistic and psychopathic behaviors including defiance impulsivity reckless behavior promiscuity substance abuse etc etc in other words it's a fluid state you can start off as a victim and end as an abuser and you can start off as an abuser and end as a victim and you can start off as a victim as a child and end up being an adult abuser yeah and so it's wrong to demarcate and delineate there is no dividing line there is fluidity between personality disorders as well which is why the next edition of the international classification of diseases edition 11 eliminates personality disorders altogether and it is a single diagnosis personality disorder so it's truly so it's almost then it's the adaptation of behavior in response to trauma we should focus we should focus not on the self-aggrandizing distinction between so-called empaths yeah many of whom are actually covert narcissists and narcissists and psychopaths and I don't know what every narcissistic is a psychopathic phase every psychopath becomes narcissistic every borderline becomes psychopathic every borderline becomes narcissistic they are all intermeshed it's a single disorder and here's the breaking news every victim becomes narcissists every victim becomes psychopath every victim becomes borderline at given times it's all it's a river we all flow into each other it's not an accident it's not a coincidence that narcissists end up with victims you could ask yourself why are there victims to start with correct there are victims because of this resonance so how do we in a society then bring some resolution to that if we're looking to move forward because we can have all these explanations we can change you know the list of personality disorders down to one we can gain this understanding but as a world as human beings then how do we find resolution in this where do we focus what do we do how do we support people who have been through this and also then at what point then do we devote the time then to the abusers in that moment because I get we can move from victim to abuser to a victim where do we draw the line with all of that and where do we as a society then you know spend the time and the support in all of this how do we do that what are you I think I think we should focus on self-defense we should focus on teaching people how to develop and enforce boundaries how to how to we should be much more how to orient it we unfortunately too focused on diagnosis demonizing demonizing we are too focused too focused on denial and splitting the narcissist is all bad I'm an angel that's splitting defense and that's a childlike way of viewing things you know devil angel it's not there's a splitting defense it's a defense typical of narcissists and borderlines because it's a childlike behavior going back to its infant time its infant time and many victims engage in this defense and don't realize that just by using this defense they're actually narcissists and borderlines so we should get rid of all this we should focus on self-defense boundaries proper behavior reactivity how to react we should educate survival because many victims will never abandon their narcissists we have to finally accept this yeah that bonding that that addiction to the yes it's trauma bonding and and here's the thing the victim is a child and the narcissist is a child and they share the same childhood they emanate they have a common source they have a common fountain they just found a different way of adapting from a codependent to a narcissist they are two children and they share the same horrendous childhood so and the their inner children bond and bind and attach it's the inner children that attach not the adults there's there are no adults there in most cases so we should give up on this notion that you know and we should begin to teach people survival strategies within such relationships because they're never going to give up and then they're going to leave so do you think it's possible then because i get asked this question a lot you know is there any way i can stay in this relationship with the narcissist and it be a really loving deeply connected relationship um you know is there any way then if we're talking say narcissist codependent let's just use that analogy to start off with is there any way for a narcissist and a codependent to actually have a fully functional relationship together within the parameters then of past trauma narcissists and codependents are an easy case because their psychological needs correspond they cater to each other's psychological needs the main need of the codependent is to regulate her internal environment via an external agent via an intimate partner it's the same with the borderline same with the borderline so these are easy matches the problem starts when there's a mentally healthy person not a codependent not a borderline mentally healthy person in a narcissist that's where the problem starts codependents and borderlines are happy gratified when they're in a relationship with the narcissist that's precisely the problem do you not think that's their version of happiness and i get to them it might seem happy but when we say okay well if a codependent is getting that secondary gain and i get that from being in a relationship with a narcissist like you say they're like magnets they're feeding that external need within both of them but where but again then are we saying then that a codependent and a narcissist can live happily ever after in this relationship that that doesn't strike me as being so you know i certainly know that i was a codependent and when i look at say the relationships i had you know both from a partner and even a friendship perspective yes in some way it was serving me so to speak equally with them but i still think i realized it was toxic on some level it's absolutely toxic you know less so with my friend yeah less so with my friendships i think it took me longer to recognize that element within a friendship capacity and even when i was say with my ex-husband like this you know i realized things weren't right for many many years but i didn't leave i still stayed i still stay yeah i still if you said were you happy then in that those years i'd have said no i recognize that something wasn't right but it felt more dangerous to leave to my system than to stay this this raises a very interesting topic in the philosophy of psychology until the 1960s perhaps 80s depends we had this this concept of normal normal versus abnormal healthy versus pathological good for you versus toxic we no longer have these what we have instead are two questions are you happy are you ego-syntonic in your condition in your situation in your circumstances and the second question we have are you functional do you function properly in a variety of settings now if the answer is yes and yes you could be a psychotic in account and we should not intervene yeah because you're happy and your functional end of story correct yes if the answer is no and yes we should intervene because you should be happy and you should be functional so many co-dependence with many co-dependence the answer is yes and yes i am happy and i am functional there we should not intervene never mind that objectively it's an abnormal state in the statistical sense it's unusual and never mind that it doesn't allow for example for personal growth so it's growth stunting it's we can judge it from outside we can say well if i had to choose i would have never chosen this kind of relationship do you think that then is as a society then we're almost looking at relationships from a narcissistic perspective then in that we look at relationship we do this all of the time and we say oh he should leave or she should leave how can she be happy how and and we're almost our past experiences our assumptions our judgments we are really projecting onto other people well not not if you're good not if you're a good professional yes correct a good professional you should not bring your prejudices middle class prejudices or whatever you should don't bring even society people do that don't we see it in the press we see it everywhere where people are making assumptions and judgments and actually you know i will get people message me and say my friend's in a narcissistic relationship what can i do i say well does she recognize that has she come to you to ask for help well no it's like well let find a way to let her know that you're there as her friend and when and if she is ever ready then you're there but you cannot make someone see something that they don't see in that moment it's a very pertinent point because very often it is society social pressure culture the cultural context expectations by peers and family and friends these create the distress these create the unhappiness yeah and these create the dysfunction so for example today we are reconceiving completely of trauma we no longer regard trauma is a clinical entity an objective thing we can take 10 people expose them to the same set of circumstances or events and only two of them would be traumatized and eight eight wouldn't know what you're talking about so trauma is a subjective experience and we had discovered in many many studies the trauma is actually a social construct people are traumatized because they are expected to be traumatized other people are telling them wow that's a really bad experience don't you feel bad don't you feel horrible don't and then they say wait a minute if so many people are saying that i should feel horrible i'll feel horrible so trauma is very interesting and going back to the beliefs like you say you know you could have two people involved in a car crash one of them gets PTSD the other one doesn't yes but if the one who does get PTSD has been living in an environment where they always feel like they're not worthy or they're not good enough as well and then they're in this situation i'm powerless again and it just gets stuck so like you say it's very much about our past experiences that are dictating our adult experiences and trades for example we discovered the very strong correlation between the tendency to be traumatized and suggestibility and ability imagery ability to conjure imagery and so on past experiences of course social and cultural mores and so on it's trauma is a totally subjective issue so if a codependent comes to you as a therapist and tells you i'm unhappy in this relationship i don't feel fulfilled i cannot grow it doesn't allow me my independence and autonomy in any way shape or form itself of course you should help of course you should help exit the relationship but there are numerous others who tell you that they're perfectly happy and perfectly functional and they live with a-holes they live with jerks they live with horrible people their inter there's their partner is a prime abuser including physical beatings and battery and whatever you and they're happy the happy is a luck and they're and they're functional there we should not intervene there is no objective measure of happiness right because as a society so many people assume then that they can't be happy they can't be okay with that and people and again i think that comes down to i had a conversation with someone about this the other day you know our need to feel like um we need to do something i had something about um i got my covid vaccine the other day but i had this well-meaning absolutely this well-meaning you don't you don't look 70 but i had this well-meaning private message that gave me sort of this fear message of the fact if i was going to have a vaccine i was potentially putting my life in danger and i'd end up dying and leaving my kids without a mom etc etc now i know her intention as such was to or what she thought was her intention was to warn me to to be a nice person so to speak to me when i go deeper with this her intention was not about me her intention was what she thought in that moment was the right thing to say for herself it wasn't about me because if she'd actually have thought about me in that situation nobody would send a message like that to another mom to try and make them really fearful about a decision i took you know a while to make myself so again i think we come back to that intention and impact i think as a society most people's intentions are very good they're very pure but actually they're very driven from what's going on inside themselves and with that becomes the impact of that let me put let me put the labels to this language the common language so two things are at play the first one is confirmation bias confirmation bias is our need to be surrounded by like-minded people who would confirm to us that we are right that we are right it's a grandiose defense so if we think that a certain type of relationship is bad for you if i think a type of relationship is bad for you i want you to agree with me if you disagree with me you're challenging my grandiosity it's all my defenses are up and i've become very aggressive is that challenging your grandiosity or is it challenging your sense of self in the fact that you as yourself can make the right choices and decisions now confirmation bias has to do with grandiosity and safety sense of safety so that's why people create echo chambers and fault silos on the internet on social media they want to be surrounded by you know all trump supporters want to be surrounded by trump supporters they wouldn't welcome a progressive liberal who would challenge some of their assumptions they would you know so it's the same here narcissists are bad victims of narcissists are all good splitting different and then if you disagree you you are challenging the the world order you're challenging order and structure you're destabilizing the cosmos not only the so this is one thing the second thing is of course the rescuer or savior mentality people want to rescue and fix other people fix their lives but for themselves not i know the impact could be they might help someone but it's about themselves isn't it yes rescue and savior mentality is a grandiose defense and so they want to rescue and fix other people's lives rescue them from bad relationships and they get extremely agitated and irritated and aggressive if you disagree to be saved i mean they will bump you in the head and save you and they will paralyze you and save you so i am not saying i coined the phrase narcissistic abuse and i invented the complex strategy of no contact i was the first to suggest no contact which is an interlinked set of 23 strategies it's not as simple as it sounds so i'm the last person it's hard breaking that addiction isn't it's a tough thing to do i would be the last person to invalidate or dispute the experience of victimhood because i was the first to describe it i am i'm entitled to say what i'm saying as not many people are and so i agree that there are groups of people who are victimized by narcissists narcissists victimized that's what they do this is their adaptive that the narcissist says i'm going to be the abuser from now the hell with being a victim doesn't suit me so there are real victims however we must understand two critical things victimhood is decided only by the victim we if we try to take this away this decision making power away from the victim we are victimizing her correct we are invalidating her we are infantilizing her we are doing to her what the narcissist is doing to her if we tell her are you crazy you shouldn't stay in this relationship we are abusing her correct i i love this and i use an analogy of our nervous system with this like a ladder so if if you've got a victim who's already at the bottom of the ladder in a freeze response and you're saying just leave just go and they're already feeling weak not good enough anyway for staying potentially you're actually further abusing and gaslighting them and making your actions even worse you are you're actually colluding with her abuser's interject even though the intention to them is coming from a good place because they just want to make you happy so to speak either from a good place either from a good place or from a grandiose place we're not quite sure correct and the second thing so this so this is the first thing victimhood is defined exclusively by the victim and the second thing is there is no distinction psychodynamic analytical clinical there is no distinction between victims of complex trauma narcissists border lies and even psychopaths there is no distinction that we can make as psychologists so the only thing to focus on is not demonizing the other side or whatever because you can end up demonizing yourself actually if you demonize the narcissist and then you gain some self-awareness you suddenly discover that you had been acting narcissistically in the past few months what then what then so instead of all this mess we should focus on survival tactics and strategies how to self-defense it almost becomes irrelevant it's almost irrelevant about any label so to speak it's how do you feel are you happy do you feel content do you feel like you're living the best version of your life and if the answer is no well how do we change that does that mean you exit a relationship does that mean that you know where is that coming from and let's work on that you know so I think what you highlight is a really great point and and it goes back to even the stuff we were talking about at the start labels we use labels and yes they can be very validating for people as well but the flip side of that there's a whole host of others like you say we we demonize we you know it becomes then about us and then so to speak but I do get when you're in that abusive relationship or coming out of all of that and you're in that kind of real defense you know fight flight and freeze the last thing they want to do is almost feel sorry for the the abuser in some respects and I think that like you say it's almost comes in stages so to speak I think it's working on yourself initially having a little bit of understanding of the dynamic but the fact of really understanding just as we've been talking about here the dynamic of a narcissist I think um you know if you have a conversation with someone who's coming out of a relationship with a narcissist and you start to talk about that the narcissist trauma and their childhood they're not going to want to hear that at that stage because that takes away their victim feelings so to speak and whilst it doesn't excuse it it can give an explanation but I don't think people are ready to hear that right at the start of a healing journey for them as well but I think this is where hopefully you know people like you and I can educate around all of this I mean I know you know you're way more of an expert and been doing this far longer than I have as well but I love the fact that you know you're coming from a place and this is where I totally believe in as well that you know it's good for understanding but labels can be really detrimental in all of this too and we've got to look beyond that in a society because we live in a world where there is so much judgment there is so much assumption if you don't agree with what I say then you're wrong I'm right and then everybody's in this defence mode even more at the moment with coronavirus you can almost see everybody simmering away and wanting a reason to to fight back and everything and I think you know everything that you've spoken about today just highlights that we need more education around all of this we need an understanding it doesn't excuse but it can help explain and give us an understanding and that in itself can help people realise it's not your fault it's circumstance it's childhood and everything else as well and I think that's such an important point for people to realise what worries me first of all I don't think the victim should feel sorry for the abuser all against this but many people come to me where they've been to in counseling sessions they go to marriage counseling and they come out and they feel like the counselor probably because they're ill educated again not their fault just society as a general with the counselor in that situation because they feel like they're trying to understand the narcissist's behaviour and give you know reasons why and it really invalidates the experience then of the other person who sat there and they come away feeling even worse I think we should we should disentangle a few a few of these concepts understanding the narcissist where he comes from his dynamics and stone is not invalidating the victim's experience invalidating the victim's experience is saying you're not a victim and the narcissist's behaviour is not abusive and you're wrong and you're crazy something that's invalidating but understanding the the other side having a more nuanced perception of reality avoiding labels demonising at least is helpful to the victim is helpful to the victim because she needs to to understand her role her contributions definitely if she wants to avoid a similar situation in the future she need to understand why the abusive behaved the way he had done because if the abuser is perceived as an impersonal natural disaster something that had just happened it absorbs the victim from any role or contribution and that's bad for the victim and if the abuser is perceived as a malevolent demonic entity then the abuser would tend to consider herself as a magnet like the eternal victim and would be stuck in a victimhood stance for the rest of her life and would even elevate victimhood into a dimension of identity so a victimhood would become her identity that secondary gain in some respect from perpetuating the these are pitfalls that abuse that victim should avoid it's it's the victim's interest to avoid these pitfalls they need to see the abuser for what is a very deficient and problematic human being and it would allow them to transform their experience into a meaningful one because if you are subject to a natural disaster to a virus then it's not a meaningful experience it has no meaning and if you're subject to a demon or a devil it equally has no meaning and if you're a magnet then you're totally passive you're passive that's that is not conducive to mental health and if victimhood becomes your identity you will attract abusers endlessly because you will want to validate your position as a victim this will have become your comfort zone so you would want to continue to be a victim that becomes familiar to you familiar the comfort zone you know the rules that said plus it it aggrandizes you it makes you you feel you feel at home when you're a victim so you would tend to attract abusers really because this is who you are you're a victim it's a passive thing these are horrible horrible pitfalls these are horrible traps and regrettably I can say from monitoring online the online situation majority of victims online because there are many victims offline majority of victims online had already fallen into many of these traps and many of them are in a hopeless situation which has nothing to do with the abuser the abuser is long gone they are now perpetuating the abuse self perpetuating but do you not think that when we when we think about the online is because people don't understand because we've medicalized narcissistic personality disorder so if someone almost uses the word narcissist and you know people well is there a diagnosis how do you know that they are that there's this feeling like that sometimes these victims of narcissistic abuse have to almost explain to other people then why they feel like that because it's this word in our society that is so misunderstood and really it's like like we say it's a host of behavior traits you know that show up in lots of different elements of somebody's life you know but if you call someone a narcissist because it's used so freely so to speak it's almost like because on the surface externally well when I look at your relationship with your other half or your mom or your father it looked like it was a really good relationship because obviously on the surface the narcissist would normally behave in a certain way publicly and then obviously behind closed doors it can it can be very different so how does that then how does say a victim say that they are involved with a narcissist or being a victim of narcissistic abuse do you think so that it doesn't feel like they're in being invalidated are we basically saying that anybody who feels they've been the victim of narcissistic abuse if they want to share their experience and again many don't and some do because they want to validate all of that are we saying don't use that word focus on yourself gain some education and understanding around all of that but many people obviously won't do that and with this then it almost and what comes up it's almost like those people then who've been victims of narcissistic abuse we've got online people saying they've been victims of narcissistic abuse and they haven't which then almost pushes underground even more because they feel even worse they're saying they've been in a narcissistic relationship they're getting on with their life now it looks like everything is okay why aren't I doing that and it actually makes them feel even worse it's almost again society is almost gaslighting them and invalidating their experience you're weak you can't cope you're you know you aren't good enough because look they were in that narcissistic relationship and they're fine now if I'm saying I was but I'm not then maybe it's me maybe I'm weak maybe I'm helpless and we've got this kind of juxtaposition then in our society then where the ultimate goal is we want everyone to try and live a happy and thriving life so how do we how do you think we resolve that I think question I think instead of saying I'm a victim we should say I had been victimized yes oh I love that I did a training on this the other day I said we need to say you have been victimized by a narcissist they are the abuser and what you have is narcissistic trauma from the narcissistic abuse so you're victimized by the narcissist having narcissistic trauma by the narcissist who has abused you and victimized you yes and it it's not who you are it's not what had happened to you is not who you are what had happened to you if you take the right steps will never happen to you again it's not preordained it's not preordained it's not inevitable yeah you can learn how to not experience this again imagine how ridiculous it would be if I were mugged and I would henceforth define myself as a mugging victim yeah I mean everyone would think I'm nuts yeah you know I love that analogy and many many times when there is a power of symmetry in in relationships for example in coercive control when there's a power of symmetry yeah victims tend to define their entire identity via the abuse so rape victims for example do go about for the rest of their lives defining themselves as rape victims when you ask such a woman when you interview such a woman she will say I'm a rape victim really you're also professor of English you're also well traveled you're also meter 70 tall you're also you're also brown eyes what do you mean you're a rape victim rape is an incident it's not a determinant or dimension of your identity in any way shape or form it had happened to you yeah so again we're back to the language element of all of this we're back to the use of language and how really as a society we misuse language with our understanding so how do we get around that part of a much part of a much bigger trend victimhood and victimization have become bon tonne they've become the new thing yeah it's like a badge bonnet they're fat they're fat they're fashion everyone is trying to find a victimhood niche you're victim because of your why do you think that is do you think it's we're so starved of connection in our world today it's almost like where can I gain connection so to speak ah this is how i'm going to gain connection because then they feel part of something it validates them being part of something bigger because we are so isolated now I think belonging and acceptance have something to do with it of course but it raises the question why why would you choose to belong to a victimhood club why not belong to a superior club but again isn't that isn't the use of that word belonging to a victimhood isn't that the choice of our language with that isn't it a kind of a hope club in that it's validating you're not the only one no these people don't want to exit the victimhood they are emotionally invested in the victimhood they perpetuate it they idolize it they glamorize it it's glamorous they make a lot of money off it they create social networks within the victimhood movement it fulfills it is like a drug addiction drug addiction has nothing to do with the drug no the drug fulfills social functions yeah the drug fulfills psychological functions yeah i agree the drug is numerous functions that's why it's so difficult to get rid of a drug habit because it doesn't only cater to your synapses it for example drug drug users they get involved in enmeshed in social networks of other drug users so victimhood had become the new drug of choice the new fashion and the new fat fad now they're victims of narcissistic abuse they're minorities which are victims sexual orientations are victims everyone is the the the european union defines itself as a victim of the vaccine manufacturers yeah victimhood is the new language if you want to drive your point across if you want to then communicate you must present some victimhood stunts some you must choose some victimhood niche now the european union is the largest economy on earth and yet if you listen to the leaders of the european union they present themselves as victims of unscrupulous avaricious vaccine manufacturers in the united states victims they don't say we can demolish these vaccine manufacturers in the jiffy if we want to because they were the greatest economic power on earth no they're victims britain adopted the victimhood stunts in brexit big big britain was a victim of the european union everyone is a victim and so of course real victims of narcissistic abuse would feel good in such an ambient such an environment that would have no incentive to exit the victimhood position so do you think do you not think that is a sweeping statement of everybody that everybody then who becomes a victim of narcissistic abuse almost wants to wear that as a badge of honor for the rest of their life not everyone not everyone i was just gonna say because i find that i i get and again this goes on the journey in some respects that initially of course being around other people because you suddenly realize hey this isn't just me this didn't just happen to me in this world because of me and it starts to open people's eyes to recognize it is about them not them as the victim so to speak that there are reasons why because surely then if this happens to other people in yes different ways but sort of you know similarities then that surely must mean then it isn't about me and we and that starts this process then of understanding from themselves and also from the narcissist so that they can move beyond all of that too you know i just for me i just see it as part of a process so to speak but i think it needs for some for some people it needs to be made more aware i think we need more for some people it's a part of for some people it's a part of the process i do but you can but the majority of victims online have been online for four years or six years people brag that they've been watching narcissism videos for six years but again do you not feel like that that is a judgment of them of that they are i am judging them it's bad pathological it's grandiose it's narcissistic to remain a victim for life and to be proud of it and i agree with you on that but again from a judgment perspective is that actually if we're judging somebody else does that's not say more about us and the person themselves because if we want to help them without judgment and actually support them in this to maybe get them out of that victimhood mentality so to speak is us judging them conducive to the environment for them no no no i'm not judging them in the sense that i i am trying to impose my values or my worldview or my preferences as concerning mental health on them if they're happy in this environment and if it allows them to be functional then as we had said before good for them but i still i still have a mind and i still am allowed to express an opinion i still can say that a codependent narcissistic relationship is sick it stunts growth it's a problem it's problematic i can say this i what i cannot do is enforce this view on the codependent and narcissists i can say that people who are perpetual professional victims who wear their victimhood as a badge of honor on their sleeve who elevate their victimhood into a self-aggrandizing statement claiming that they're angels blameless flawless etc etc who refuse to countenance their contribution or role in what had happened to them i can still say this is dysfunctional this is unhealthy this is narcissistic and so on i'm not the only one who is saying this in october last year there was a study published by gabai gabay and others about the construct of of they called it the tiv tiv construct the tendency for interpersonal victimhood they discovered the psychological construct among people which predisposes them to play the eternal victim now carpman in his drama triangle there's always a victim a rescuer and an abuser and what carpman had discovered he reveled i mean unambiguously is that victims often become abusers abusers become rescuers rescuers become victims this is a total that's why it's called the drama triangle because each participant takes different roles at different times so there's a lot more to victimhood than meets the eye i agree with you and and when i see for example the self-styled empaths online my skin crawls these are these are people who had discovered their claim on fame they had discovered a reason to live they are they they revel in their victim they cherish it they nurture it they have competitions who is more victim than the other whose abuser was more abuser than the others i just see that the sin there is sick to the core these are sick people my suspicion covert narcissists i can't diagnose them of course from afar but they strike me as covert narcissists and trust me i know a thing or two about covert narcissists so this is what i'm railing against that there that narcissists victimize people i'm the first to have said it that the narcissistic abuse is the most horrendous conceivable type of abuse i'm the first to have said it that there are numerous real victims who want to not be victims anymore no question about it that we should help them of course should we collaborate with people whose victimhood is a dimension of their identity the cause for pride a vehicle for celebrity um no a power play no because these people had had converted from victims to narcissists and that's not some vacuum we say this this is Judith Herman the Judith Herman not Pete Walker with his misrendition of CPTSD but Judith Herman the real McCoy so it's time that we speak up we are terrified by these people because they are numerous and because they are aggressive do you not think then with everything you are saying and again we go back to the medicalization the DSM whether it be codependent narcissists borderline empath any of those things that really what we should always be looking at is root cause it starts with you as the self and then we look at that understanding then of the dynamics then of that relationship and if you're happy great carry on so to speak as long as obviously you know that there's a duty of care with this danger so to speak involved um but other than that do you think we need more education then around people recognizing the sense of self of of what you know like you say being happy creating those boundaries recognizing that regardless of what somebody is as a label so to speak it's all irrelevant it's all irrelevant it's actually about but there's a barrier to this education the investment in victimhood as a defining dimension of identity is a barrier to education but do you not think then what's the root cause then of that victimhood where does that come from because when I think and I totally agree with the majority of what you're saying it's almost like but if that person then is sitting in that victimhood mentality why why are they doing that where's that coming from they don't want to find out why correct it threatens there but there will be some that do and I get just like a narcissist just like somebody else you can't help someone who doesn't recognize that there's a situation that they need to be helped from you you can only help someone if they say hey you know if something isn't right I'm not happy I need some support with all even more basic you can't help someone even more basic you can't help someone who refuses to become self aware or to introspect yeah someone can disagree with you whether the situation requires help someone can tell you no my situation is perfect I'm happy but if she she or he refuse to learn refuse to become self aware refuse to introspect because it threatens their emotional investment in something you see narcissists are the same they refuse to become self aware and so on because if if a narcissist really looks at himself in the mirror it's a pathetic figure so this functional pathetic child and this is the process of modification which narcissists try to avoid it any cost modification is becoming introspective becoming self aware the same with with these invested victims they don't want to hear the latest studies on my channel for example I always I always rely on the latest studies the cutting edge studies they're furious they're absolutely furious when they hear the Judith Helen thinks that victims of CPTSD are actually narcissists and psychopaths or that borderline is a form of secondary psychopathy or they I mean they go crazy they go apeshit because we've we've put so much to these labels because we see them as bad and they don't want no one wants to see themselves as bad so to speak and again if we're looking down to the root cause of it rather than labelling and because these words so hot hold so much weight okay I'm sorry I give their own examples they are not interested to learn for example what what role they have what contributions they make ownership and responsibility yeah they refuse they absolutely refuse it's adamant it's aggressive it's violent and it's vile but isn't that then when we look at the narcissist on exactly the same level the ownership and responsibility and we look at you know if we're coming and I try and do this you know I try and look at things from a place of compassion because I know if I'm not getting curious and being compassionate about a situation I'm not as myself there's I'm bringing other past staff into the equation of what I am saying you know it's past experiences that are showing up so that if we can try and obviously who knows when this would ever happen in our world so to speak that if we can try and look at everybody with compassion but curiosity as well to gain understanding doesn't mean excuses behavior but to gain explanation but it just seems like again that our society is filled with judgment lack of compassion you know words hold so much weight there is no ownership and responsibility so to speak which is okay if that's how people want to be at the end of the day but then how do we move forward then in a space where those that do want to be helped that do want to take ownership that do want to take responsibility they do recognize things aren't right how can we support them better because I know we can have a bunch of time for you we can help them to get to know themselves yeah we can then provide them with tools to develop boundaries we can then teach them strategies of self-defense survival if they choose to coping we can focus on on practicalities there's a problem with tribalism there's a problem with atomization the social fabric has been rendered apart there's no social consensus anymore it's everyone to his own and everyone pulls together in tribes and the tribes there's a lot of hostility between the tribes it's in politics it's in politics it's in science it's everywhere it's not only in this space of narcissists versus victims it's always someone versus something someone the versus thing is you know so a victim who really wants to get on with her life live a better healthier life accomplish perhaps different outcomes be more self-efficacious there are numerous tools in psychology to help her this is not new this has been going on for decades we have no problem to teach someone how to be self-efficacious how to develop a sense of agency how to own her role and contributions in her relationships how to design her relationships to work how to exit dysfunctional relationship and how to identify them how to fend off abuse even this what tactics and it's all there it's a rich treasure but people are far less focused on self-transformation self-awareness and introspection and betterment and evolution in personal development and growth they're far less focused on this than they have been in the times of Abraham Maslow for example there has been a shift from self-improvement self-help which was the big rage in the 80s and the 90s there's been a shift from this to victimhood and tribalism this is a societal trend the poor victims of abuse narcissistic abuse they are not an isolated incident it's not that something is wrong with them we are all the same even I when I look at myself I belong to tribes definitely for example I am super rational and I detest religion religious people and their infantile projections of gods and angels and I don't know what and I'm very aggressive about it and I bedmouth them and I shouted them and I and I would decapitate them if I could like ISIS you know so this is my tribalism I react allergically to religious people I think they're stupid I think they're vitals this is my tribalism everyone belongs to a tribe and I do feel that but do you not then see even with what you're saying there from that judgment perspective because of your past experiences what you feel in that moment is being projected onto them like you say you know I have this you know hatred of religion etc and you know I agree I'm not a religious person but equally I wouldn't necessarily get into a debate I'd happily debate it but it certainly wouldn't bring up in me that need to show them how wrong they are because that would then mean I am right and not even necessarily in the right wrong status of all of that it's you know it's almost like in a society why does someone have to believe and feel and think what I think well just a second I'm running out of battery oh okay then work yourself in I know so I will let you go in a moment it's just such a fascinating discussion at everything and I know everyone will really really enjoy listening to all of this because it's so real it's so important um to talk about one of this it's not about it's not about uh who's right and who's wrong uh who's right and who's wrong is a legitimate discourse so why do you so why do you it's about power it's about power and aggression okay so why do you need them say from a religious perspective to get them to know how stupid they are because modern modern modern civilization modern existence the postmodern condition fosters a lot of aggression and does not provide legitimate venues for discharging this aggression in the past we provided legitimate venues for discharging aggression but political correctness and numerous other developments blocked all the venues to the discharge of aggression and so we now discharge aggression and we engage in power plays with everyone over time does that make it right sorry does that make it right so when so when we talk about that power it's all right you ask me what's happening that's what's happening that's what's happening I don't know if it's right or wrong but this is the situation now of course victims engage in aggression against noses noses is engaging aggression against victims I engage in aggression against religious people it's all aggression-based it's a power play it's a very and so it excludes meaningful conversation it includes transformation it definitely excludes self-awareness and introspection and these are the tools of psychology the tools of talk therapy are insight which is introspection and self-awareness conversation talking all these are excluded therapies therapies are becoming less and less and less efficacious I agree with you I agree you know I do a lot of somatic work in what I do and again from the cognitive perspective you can say you're good enough to your blue in the face but it's not necessarily going to change what you feel in order that you know you have to work on that on that element and I think like you say from a talking therapy perspective of course it has a place because you're someone listening to you you're validating your experiences but is it actually going to get to the root cause of all of that as well and I think you know just everything you've highlighted Sam I think it's it's just down to more education and and almost live and let live if that's what how people want to be if that's what they want to behave like but creating platforms I hope like I do like you like you do that people can realize that it doesn't have to necessarily be like that this is about you and there is an opportunity for you to learn and grow and live you know the best life you can possibly do and if people want to sit in the tribes and the victim hoods and everything else then that's okay I think this the sad part for me in all of this is thinking that if people are sitting in that victim hood mentality so to speak why are they doing that what has led them to feel that and accept in some respects that that's good enough for them to live their life like that and that's what I find sad in all of this that the people who do and they and they do absolutely they say sitting in victim hood for the rest of their life and there's that element for me where I think wow they think that that life they're living and again that's me almost assuming that they're living less of a life because they're sat like that that they feel like their life is only worthy of that because there is so much more out there for us to live and enjoy you know connect talk to other people and I just I think if you grow up if you grow up if you grow up being noticed only when you when you're a victim if you if you have utility to your parents only when you're a victim if you're told that you're unworthy your self-esteem is low your sense of self-worth is fluctuating or non-existent then you would tend to gravitate naturally to to a state of victimhood because that's your comfort zone and you know that as a victim you're going to get detention you're going to get compassion you're going to get love you're going to get support and support covert narcissism right there in victimhood victimhood guarantees favorable outcomes from the environment which you believe wrongly always wrongly that you cannot get any other way maybe I'm not worthy of love but I'm very worthy as a victim so don't yeah don't love me as who I am don't love me as who I am love love love me is is what it happened to me love me because of what had happened to me don't love me as who I am correct because that's their version of love that's their blueprint of actually what love is you know they don't realize love isn't necessarily a healthy love here is like that and again we have again we have a confluence between narcissists and victim the narcissists had learned as a child that he can be loved only when and if he performs yeah conditional and the victim had learned that she can be loved only if and when she performs as a victim correct both of them are performance based both of them believe that love is conditional so both in some respects are co-dependence they're both lacking in yes absolutely narcissism a form of co-dependency extreme form actually of co-dependency because a narcissist depends for his life on other people and their input he has no internal environment everything comes from outside it's uh you begin you see the similarities the amazing similarities the victim's narcissism the starting point absolutely in all of this so I'm quite in condition so I suppose in in round up then if you have to give because I'm thinking of myself here okay I'm going to be a bit selfish at the end here now okay so me being in the space I am online and everything else what would you say to me are the top three things you'd like to see more of from those in my space as well online what would you like to see more of how so if you were going to if you were my business coach so to speak to create change to create impact to create you know this sense of maybe more understanding okay what would you say is the top three things you would like to see more of in that online space number one love yourself yeah don't love don't love love yeah don't be in love with love don't don't love yourself because others tell you that you're lovable or because others love you love yourself never mind regardless of what other people say or do and love yourself regardless regardless of whether you have other people in your life at all I love that that analogy of being loved as opposed to being lovable you are lovable regardless but if you're in a room with a hundred people they're not all going to love you doesn't mean you're not lovable it just means they don't love you should not be you should not your sense of self love should not be derivative it should not be an outcome of other people's judgments or gays or whatever it should be totally independent and it should proceed even in the absence of other people yeah now many many people are in love with the idea of being in love so they are infatuated with infatuation that's an unhealthy state the second piece of advice if you have the slightest inkling of a shadow of a possibility that something is wrong walk away if you don't like the way he raises the fork to his mouth on the first date walk away so any red flag any red flag even something that looks totally irrelevant yeah I don't know he was talking to the waiter in the restaurant and he wasn't looking at him you didn't like it walk away do not do not reframe or speculate or mitigate or don't argue that's a hard thing to do isn't it do not argue with yourself and do not let your loneliness dictate your future state of victimhood that that I love that do not let your loneliness dictate your future state so because the antecedent of antecedent of victimhood is loneliness so if something strikes you as wrong it is wrong trust your gut a thousand percent not a hundred percent a thousand percent we have more influence there don't we you know our gut we have more information going from our gut to our gut than our brain to our gut actually if you're interested in the numbers for every million bits of information that we ignore we process 55 yeah wow million bits of information do go in but we don't we are not aware of a sam i've ignored millions and millions right why trust the 55 why trust the 55 another million absolutely yeah your brain is telling you something you don't like something I mean you go you you get up to go to the toilet and he kind of looks away shiftily walk away trust your gut 100 million percent the last advice you confine me to three so the last bit of observation or advice I would give it is extremely tempting to abuse your abuser don't don't it's a path of no return this is the real abuse if you abuse your abuser your abuser will have succeeded to convert you into a clone into a clone of himself which is what he had wanted all along correct he had wanted you to disappear and reappear as he's copying if you abuse your abuser you will have become his copy don't give him what he wants this is precisely what he wants maintain your you maintain your core maintain your values I love that I think again you know all of these are so much harder to put into practice in real life because yes people do want get back at their abuser and everything and fight as such because again I think it goes back to in some tiny element they think they're going to have this epiphany because as a society we like to think there's good in everybody so to speak so you know maybe if I say this they would almost be in that toddler what behavior can I do to get you to recognize all of this and turn into the nice person so to speak and all of that but yeah I totally agree you're giving your energy to someone where they're not going to change that's who they are you need to put that energy into yourself I think that's such an important point it really is because sadly again many people do that they get hooked into the back and forth which is why no contact is so important as well you know you get back in those endless messages and emails back and forth you're actually feeding what the narcissist wants you to do and that I think I've absolutely I mean oh my goodness I could sit and talk to you all day about it I love I love how you bring the whole sort of science element into this but in a really understandable way actually I think you know that that's really important I think it totally comes across as well Sam because you're putting it in a context of real depth and knowledge but in a way people can understand and I just hope you know anyone who listens to this just bring a bit more compassion into how they behave and you know whether they are the victim or victimized by the narcissist or indeed the narcissist or anything that there is that element of you know and I hope that came across with both of us here of this understanding of all of this of this not blaming anybody not kind of you know labeling but really trying to gain some insight and understanding really into the root cause of all of this and maybe what we can all do better in this world to try and help with all of that as well so any final words that you want to say before before we end no it's been a pleasure and let's see if people ask questions and so on we may do some follow-up yeah I would absolutely love that I really love that you know I've got a big community of people that I know they might even watch that and they will feel triggered by some of the stuff we've been speaking about but you know what bring awareness to that and you know let's see what else comes up down the line so thank you so much Sam thank you for having me on time today and and I look forward to speaking to you soon take care YouTube bye bye