 We demystify what goes on behind the therapy room door. Join us on this voyage of discovery and co-creative conversations. This is The Therapy Show, behind closed doors podcast, with Bob Cook and Jackie Jones. Welcome back to the next episode 109 of The Therapy Show, behind closed doors, with myself Jackie Jones and the wonderful Mr. Bob Cook. And what we're going to be talking about this week is script backlash and how to deal with it in the therapy room. Before I start that, one of my supervisees and who obviously listens to my these podcasts has got into, well often teases me and calls me wonderful Bob Cook. Delicious Bob Cook, but delightful Mr. Bob Cook. Yes. So that's nice. Yes, script backlash. Now, firing on really, but it doesn't have to listen to the last one on injunctions. But the concept of script. So Jackie, so how about you explain just because for talking about script backlash, we need to have a definition of what script is and I know you're good at explaining very easy terms, what it's a TA term again, means life plan, but what script is or how you see it or how you look for script or, you know, you're sort of too penithent. Well, that's exactly what I would say. It's our life plan. It's the decisions that we make before the age of seven, really about how we're going to live our life. We've got it all mapped out. Yeah. So yeah, I was script. It's literally like a script. It's like the script of a soap opera that we're playing a part in and we know who's going to be in that and how we're going to behave and how our relationships are going to pan out and all sorts of things. It's quite an intricate thing that we devise. Yeah. Yeah. So it's part of TA lexicon. So as a TA therapist, we'll look for the life plan that a person or script, like Jackie called it, has devised unconsciously throughout their lives. Now, interestingly enough, the word script goes back a long way. Doesn't necessarily, you know, come from Eric Byrne, he used it and he wrote a lot about this. And he also said something, I'm going to pick up something you said, Jackie. He also did say in his books, you're quite right, that for him, seven was the sort of age. I mean, for Freud, it was five. And people around that time used to particularly put years on it, if you want to put it that way, that, you know, by the, we'll say seven, like Eric Byrne, by the age of seven, we've made central decisions about life, like I'm okay, you're not okay, or very simple terms. And then we elaborate on those. And but all that happens before we're seven. Now, there are developmental theories, particularly in TA as well, but outside TA, which take a different view. And they would say that we are always enhancing and developing and changing our script as we grow up, and especially in the very important developmental phases that we go through. So I'd just like to say that, that it isn't necessarily fixed, some people say, but Freud put four, five, Byrne put seven. Either way, get, without getting caught up, I think on the technicalities. Yeah, definitely age bit. But the bit that is important is that in the development of our personality, we make decisions about ourselves and other people in the world. Yeah. That becomes the way we see the world. And that becomes, then, the way we enact out important decisions about ourselves and other people, relationships we have, how we are in the world, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah. And things have got to fit into our script. If it doesn't fit into our script, then often we'll discount it. We won't pay any attention to it. If it doesn't validate our life story, yeah. Yeah. So if the friends you have don't in some ways fit into our belief systems that underpin our script, then we don't often have them around for very long. Yeah. Yeah. It's like a filter. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I often talk about it. Literally, I have a book that I've written on the book cover, and it says LifeScript, and it's kind of like that we're constantly hitting up against it in therapy. You know, it's hard to get through the LifeScript and the decisions that our clients have made. I think it is. And I think it's important for therapists to think about, especially developmental therapists, to think about this and to think about how these life decisions, these injunctions we talked about in the last podcast, and all these different ways are formed because it helps the client have an understanding of how they have become the way they are today. Yeah. If they can get an understanding of that, then they are in the position that would take quite a bit of therapy, but you know, once they're halfway through the therapy, that they're then in a position to change some of those set of decisions, which are harmful to them. Yeah. They have to have new ones, again, that's perhaps later in the podcast, they need to have new positive processes put into place. But it's a very important kind of position where clients can come to a level of autonomy or ownership of themselves, where they can start understanding how they've become the way they are, how they made those decisions, and maybe to develop mechanisms for different decisions, which will shape a more positive destiny. Yeah. Yeah. I often say, you know, I was script, I know a lot of what my script is about now. I still don't think I know it all because I kind of hoodwink myself, you know, to me that I think, oh, that's what it is. And then it's like, no, that's not what it is. It's something else because I'm very, well, I think we all are protective of our script. It's like a fortress sometimes to actually get to the bottom of it. Yes, because life's predictable, though. Yeah, we have a sense of identity. Yeah. Now we've described script a little bit. Let's go on to what the podcast's about, which is the concept script backlash. Now, I always say, I always thought that came from Byrne, Eric Byrne, who was the originator of Transaction Houses. But apparently, many people told me it doesn't. So I've searched the literature to see where it comes from and I can't find. So this could be a Bob Cook term. Wow. It's the term that I always use. I talk about a backlash. I warn clients about a backlash. Because I train mythology of the term. But anyway, wherever it comes from, it speaks for itself. It's exactly what you're just saying there. When somebody goes against their script in some ways, they may then feel a backlash to doing that. So if you give you an example, a clinical example, for many, many years ago, and we might be talking for a second, I feel low of when I say this, but over 30 years ago. So it's a long, long time. And it was before I ran a group. So it might be 34, 35 years ago. Perhaps it was even the beginning of my career for this example. So it's a long time ago. So Clive had been singing individually. And I think at that particular time, so this would be the late 80s, I think, I was quite into Louise Hay. I don't know if you mentioned about Louise Hay, Jack, and the idea of giving yourself permissions, like, you know, you're lovable. Look in the mirror, tell yourself that you're lovable. Or look in the mirror and tell yourself you're important. Or look in it. It's like the opposite of those injunctions. And I don't want to sympathise Louise Hay because she, I like a lot of her permissions and a lot of things that she came up with. So I don't want to, I want to say that that's good. However, this is an example of script backwards for you. So I was working with this client and she had a lot of decisions, which I again came from generational position following injunctions, that she wasn't important, that she wasn't valuable. And certainly no one would ever love her. So I, in my, I think inexperienced face, perhaps I was still even a trainee and I certainly didn't lose a hay that time, said, would you like some homework? I don't oppose things like I was talking about. And she said she would quite like concept of putting homework in place. I said, okay, so what I'd like you to do in the week that you see me, seven days you see me, is to go home and perhaps twice a day, look in the mirror. We did a lot of therapy, by the way, on looking in the mirror because she didn't find that easy. But anyway, and just tell yourself, you know, maybe you're younger self, if you find a younger self or whatever, that you're lovable and you're worthwhile and valuable, I think was the phrase I used, I mean, it's 30 years ago. I thought that was quite good at the time. Sounds feasible, sounds good enough. Yeah. And anyway, a week goes by and she turned up and she came in the room. And as soon as she came in the room, I knew something was wrong. Besides the fact she didn't have a cup of tea that I invited to her. But anyway, the first I said how you said first, she says I'm very angry with you. So it's like, because I knew something was wrong. I had no idea what she was angry about. So I said, what's, what's, what's, what's happened? Tell me a little bit about your anger. Because I think it's positive, by the way, I think this is all whisked to the milk, anyway. So she said, well, it's that homework you gave me. I said, yes. She said, you know, as I started to do that, I couldn't find my younger self. The only thing, the only person I could see was my mother. Wow. And my mother was very angry at me. And telling me how useless and how, you know, a lot of things I can't say on this podcast, but sums up to the injunction that I talked about, loveable, don't existing and all those sorts of things. And I stopped doing it. So I said, Oh, I'm glad you stopped doing it, because that's history. She said yes. But ever since then, I've had a headache on the left side of my head. I said, wow, yes. And it's still here. And I can't get rid of it. I think it's something to do with work you set me. So I, after a bit of explanation, I said, and you know, when you were younger, did you ever disagree with your mother? For example, when she said we useless, she said, no, no, no, she used to hit me if I did. So I said, and why did she hit you? And she said, on the left side of my head. Wow. Now I really learned from that. Yeah. Concept of what I'm calling script backlash. When you start challenging the script, what made her per script, of course, was modeling and words and narratives from this toxic mother who was so jealous of this lovely girl she had in front of her. But not only did she have this dire trap about how useless her daughter was, but she used to hit her across the head if she dared to disagree or argue back. So when I, in my naive wisdom, which you've turned out to be completely, I mean, we learned a lot therapy from it. So that's what. Yeah, that's what was going through my mind. You learned a lot from it. Yeah, absolutely. Okay, but perfect example of what I'm talking about, that when, that the therapist really needs to think about not only the homework they set, if they believe in homework and give that to clients, but when you're given permission and encouragement for your clients to practice, take the risk to make changes, to have a more healthy script, you are encouraging them to maybe go against that toxic figures, which were or might be angry or frustrated or disappointed. And they may feel or be rubber banded back to the very time that they argued or stood up to that toxic person. Yeah, that's what I'm talking about with backlash. Is that a clear example? Yeah, absolutely. And you know, it is something that I do discuss with people and you know, that it is quite a positive thing because it proves that they're actually stepping out of the script, even though there is a backlash or a rubber banding or something, you know, for me, it is a positive thing because something shifted. But I think it's important, like you said, you know, to explain that to the client that, you know, this is what's happened or this might happen if you step out of your script. Yeah, I mean, two or three things. Thank God she came back. That was the other thing that I was thinking because this is the time where people will say that you're no good as a therapist or something because they have, you know, a big shift, but then there's a lot of negative feelings that can come with that, a lot of anxiety. I call it a wobble, but you know, some people say it's more than a bloody wobble. And it's something for the therapist to think about because, you know, this is, we're now 30 years and on. I know now know a lot of clinical experience and thinking and mistakes I've made and all sorts of things back then I hadn't made them. Yeah. So I know where I am and I wouldn't do that again in that way at all. I'd do different things in different ways because you're absolutely right, Jackie. You know, you're absolutely right. It worked out well, XXX and it might not have done. Yeah. And I think that I would have done things in a slower, more, you know, more process-oriented way and it did work out well. So I'm giving you the example. But so the concept I wanted to get over is that when therapists give permissions, when therapists follow direction that maybe I've just talked about, I think before then, before then I hadn't done enough of it, they needed to have had inquiry, much more inquiry of what, in terms of developmental inquiry about how their childhood was with these toxic people. Yeah. Because giving permissions in therapy, I think is a really important thing. It's really valuable, but it can be really powerful as well. At the right time. Yeah. I think I'll get, I'm not, I love permissions, don't get me wrong. And I would give a plea for people to do more inquiry about a person's history in terms of scripts and early decisions and injunctions before they give permissions. Yeah. Yeah. Then they know what they're doing more. Yeah. I agree. Because I think it can stop progression in therapy. It can pull people up short, giving them permissions. I can remember, there's a couple of times where I've been given permission, you know, when I've been the client in a therapy process. And it's, yeah, it's been quite difficult. And I think I've actually shut down when it's been given to me. I've not received it very well at all. I've disconnected and, yeah. Well, if you've got, this is, sorry, this is what I'm saying, timing is everything in psychotherapy. And also, what also is everything in psychotherapy, I think, is an inquiry into the developmental history of the client. So you know the person that you're talking to. Yeah. In terms of the clinical treatment. And permissions are a clinic partner from TA clinical treatment. Yeah. Do you need to know the person in front of you to give the accurate permission at the accurate time, if you like? Yeah. If that's not there, then what can happen is the client has got a running parental tape, which is going, oh, don't listen to her. She's out to get you. She can't be interested. Just follow. Just, you know, you've got to be loyal to me. Don't listen to that. That's what's going on. And then the permissions just become counterproductive. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And for me, that's what a backlash is all about. Do you know what I mean? Is that sometimes the, the switch can come back harder and stronger because the timing's been off. Often the timing, I feel I'm repeating myself, but it's such an important point. Often the timing is off because the therapist hasn't spent enough time in a developmental inquiry about a person's history. Yeah. In other words, they don't know the person in front of them. And in very simple terms, they're attempting to change somebody they don't know. Yeah. Well enough. Yeah. Now, we, now, of course, this is all said in the dimension of long-term therapy. Now, how can you get to know somebody well in six sessions, 10 sessions, 12 sessions, 17 sessions? I'm talking about the type of therapy I was oriented in, which is long-term developmental work, which could go up to three years. Yeah. That longer than that. But timing is everything. Spending time with a accurate developmental inquiry of the person's history helps you and the other person feel understood and gives information to you as well as the other person feeling accounted and met. Yeah. Can you remember having backlash, spit backlash? Oh, yes, yes, yes. Yes, and I think the backlash I'm talking about is usually the bit I've just told you, which is running in my head is a whole tape about how dreadful the therapist is. And that they're out to get me or they're out to trick me or anybody think you're worthwhile. Well, that person's just after your money or that's sort of the, you know, and then, of course, the unconscious processes, which are, well, I don't, I just feel uncomfortable. I'm not going to go back to therapy or just don't feel like am I getting anything or I don't get demotivated and stop therapy. Yeah, see, for me, I've had that, but for me, I think the one that sticks in my mind most is literally all the hers up the back of my neck, stood up on end and I had a wave of anger towards the person. I can't remember a running commentary going through my head. It was much more a physical sensation that I had, which isn't like me. I don't normally get angry, but I felt really angry at the person. And that it shocked me when I felt that way. Yeah, from quite a harmless thing that they'd actually said. Yeah, so if that's what I was saying, Tommy said, everything is key. Yeah. If the relationship is robust enough between the therapist and the client to take that confrontation or to take that inquiry or to take that homework or to take the XXX then the relationship will be strong enough for the therapist to say, wow, that seems a really intense experience you're having. Could you tell me a bit more about it? Yeah. But if the relationship's not built up, then that may not happen. Absolutely. And it's about having the relationship that's stable enough for the client to let the therapist know what's happening, that they are having that internal dialogue or that there's a feeling coming up for them. Because in the early days, I wouldn't have had the confidence to say any of that to my therapist. I would have just made out like everything was all right and probably not gone back again. Yeah. And that's what I said. And the therapist might never know. Yeah. The fact that that was happening and the therapist hadn't, the therapy hadn't, and it's a great opportunity missed. Yeah. Yeah. I would be the world's worst short-term therapist. Because of all the principles I believe in, I would never have time to do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I just, you know, I admire and I, I think a lot of these therapists that work the six, 10, 12 sessions, 17 sessions, because I could not do it easily. No. I think good work can be done in a short period of time, but it's a lot of surface stuff. It's not, I don't think you can go deep. That's what I'm saying. You know, a lot of people, you know, to achieve very successful outcomes over those short amounts of time is something I, I wouldn't want to do, but I would feel very frustrated in doing. And I always needed to be a therapist who worked down the layers of the onion. Yeah. Always to go back and back and back and look at those early decisions, how the script was formed, how it gets enacted without a day and help person have a new destiny. Yeah. I couldn't, I often say to many of the people who come to my supervision courses who are CBT therapists or they're short term therapists or whatever they are. You know, I say, you know, I just couldn't do what you do. And that doesn't mean my therapy is something I wouldn't put on you, that type of work. But I was always trained in long-term development work. Yeah. And I think, I think that, you know, what you're saying that it's a valid point because, you know, not every type of therapy is suitable for every type of person to do it. You know, we all have our different personalities and the way that we work in therapy. I've often thought that, do you know what I mean? That we don't get to see how other people perform and how other people talk about injunctions or script and life stories and everything because we all do it differently. Once we're in that therapy room behind closed doors, you know, which is one of the reasons why we decided to do this so we could open up those doors and share some of that. Yeah. And the response I get back, usually when I say I work three, five, six years with people, it's usually, oh no, no, I couldn't do that. I couldn't have crimes being dependable to the, you know, dependent on me and all these sorts of things. And I understand their frame of reference completely. Yeah. I mean, what's even ironic is that Bernou created transaction analysis, created it so there'd be a method for quicker therapy rather than the 14 or 15-year psychoanalysis two times, three times a week that he was involved in. And the thing, it is ironic in a way. And there's many different types of T8 therapies. There's many T8 therapies work short time, contractual, short time focus there to serve, you know, 20 sessions or something. And there's a lot of therapist work developmentally like me. Yeah. Because in there we're training, that's what we did. I think we had eight weeks, you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. In our, you know, low cost clinic or whatever it was like for eight weeks. More than eight weeks. Must have been 12% back then. It's 26 now, you know. Is it really? Well, it certainly wasn't that long. Okay. Six months now, these people in the low incomes that come through our placements can have up to 26 sessions. I think that's invaluable. I think that's a really good service that you do for the, you know, the trainees as well as the clients that are in there. Absolutely. These six months give somebody 26 weeks to get a little bit down the onions. Yeah. Onion layers on me. Yeah. Any decisions. Um, but I hope the listeners have got some idea through the clinical vision that we've both talked about, about what script backlash is. And it's an important concept because you know, we must think about this in terms of our timing. And when we give out certain clinical treatments like permissions or ask people to do certain types of homework, which actually may take them into an area of repeating history. Yeah. And I think, you know, it's important to say that a script backlash doesn't just happen once it can happen over and over and over again over, you know, as we're getting close to something in the script, there will often be a backlash to that. And yeah, this is why I love transactional analysis. But you are right. And the therapist might never know. Yeah. So again, I know we talk about the therapeutic relationship so many times in these podcasts, but to me, that's why it is so important so that we can communicate it, you know what I mean? And the client can come back and let us know what's happened when they did do that homework because, you know, it's really good that that client originally came back to you and was angry with you and told you what was going on because then you can do something with it. Absolutely. And if I can remember, we went on for another year. Yeah. I had obviously done something right in building up the relationship. And you're absolutely correct. Yeah. Just another wonderful thing about transactional analysis and how it works. It's like magic, this stuff. I think what you said isn't magic. But I do know what you mean at another level completely. But I do think that, you know, therapists who spend time building the relationship, developmentally doing the inquiry stuff that we're talking about so that they really know the client in front of them. I think that provides a really solid framework for therapy to happen. Okay, magic might happen in that, but the relationship, you know, has been carefully, like an archaeologist, carefully built, carefully inquired, lots of encountering and validating. So the two people have a level, certain level of trust in the process is a wonderful template for the magical therapy to happen for. Yeah. I really believe that. Yeah. Yeah, me too. So until next time, Bob. Yeah. And what is the next one? Do we know? Well, what I've got here is how to work with trust issues in the therapy process. I would like to put two forward. I don't know where you're going in this, but I like to put one forward. Go on. So again, Advantage and disadvantage is touch therapy. Have we talked about what we need to end this podcast Bob first? We haven't ended this podcast, this podcast yet. So we need to just say bye bye to people. So also seeing how we, how we discover and talk about titles as well. Yeah, you see, this is behind the therapy door. They're getting to see everything here. So until next time, we will speak to you. Thank you so much for listening. Bye bye everybody. Bye bye. You've been listening to the therapy show behind closed doors podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review. We'll be back next week with another episode.