 Testing, testing, testing. Oh, that was very fun. OK, everyone. We're going to get started with this panel. If folks could move to the front, that would be great. We would so appreciate it. Intimate and close and build relationships and everything. It's going to be great. You know, talk. Great. So we're going to give a quick intro, and then we're going to invite the panelists to join us. Hello, everyone. Welcome to Breaking the Binary. Thank you for being here. Let's give a little love for the event. Yeah. Awesome. My name is SK. I use they, them pronouns. I'm a co-founder of this Breaking the Binary situation we got going on. My name is Lisa. I also use they and them pronouns. Co-founder of Breaking the Binary. This is so weird to say, also. I know, I know, I know. But we've really created that hashtag to describe a bunch of different types of events and work with theater arts organizations to create sustainable practices for transgender, non-conforming, non-binary, genderqueer, two-spirit, and other non-cisgender identities. Inclusion work with folks. So that's kind of what this is a part of. Yeah, should we go into how this day is going to go? Let's do it. Great. Awesome. I'll do it. I'll do it. So we're going to kick it off with a panel from, and so it'll be about an hour of different arts workers plugging into this conversation from a bunch of different perspectives and from specifically a kind of trans umbrella perspective, which is great. And Lisa's going to be leading that conversation. After that, we're going to transition into some working conversations about the panel and about strategizing for the field and kind of for the world in general. And sort of depending on the needs of the space and how we're doing, that might be two separate groups. That might be one big group as well. At that point, we'll say goodbye to our friends at HowlRound. Hey, HowlRound. Livestreaming this right now. And then we'll have a reception. And we'd also love to point out the outer space in the corner. Do you want to talk about that? Yeah, sure. So this is our Honor the Dead fight like hell for the living. I don't know about y'all, but what's happening in the world right now, I feel like we need to be holding space specifically for those of us that experience the most systemic marginalization and violence from the state. And so up on this altar, we have flowers. We have some LED candles because I know that having actual fire in a very enclosed space is probably not safe. But also some amazing books by trans people of color authors, a couple of volumes if you want to go up and take a peek. And then we also have on the left side our space to offer words. So what words of support, of healing, of resistance do you want to offer to the community right now specifically thinking about who of us is being most targeted? And so there's space to offer those. Feel free, there's some chalk if you want to write on the chalkboard behind it. And really, at any point, if you just want to take a step and have some space, that is open. It'll be up for the rest of the day. Great. Cool. We want to give out a few thank yous before we get started. A big thank you to all of our panelists and facilitators took a lot of relationship building to get folks in this room. So we're super grateful for people doing the work. Thank you to American Repertory Theater for supporting this whole initiative and being open around their sort of programming with trans identities of just reaching out and saying help. We want to have a conversation. We want support around this work, which is awesome. Want to give a special thanks to the staff at Oberon, special thanks to Brenna, very special thanks to Mark Lunsford, also to HowlRound for live streaming, Regina Fields for writing an awesome interview article about the events. And I think that's it. I think that runs. Yeah. Cool. So we'll transition into the panel. Just want to say thank you so much for showing up. The context that we're in politically in this country right now is really frightening and hard. And we understand that it takes a lot to show up and to continue to believe in the arts as a form of resistance. Just want to name that. So thank you for being here. And we'll start that panel. Cool. Sweet. Thank you all. So I'd like to invite up our panelists. Come on down. I'm going to put a mic down that is not mine and switch. OK. Oh, does this work? Oh, yeah. There we go. It's hot. So first off, again, I know I have, like, thanks to all of you for. Oh, wait. We can grab a spare chair if we're going to get a spare chair. OK. Cool. Yeah. Matches the chair. We like matching up here. It's wonderful and beautiful. So just to start off, what I'd like to do is actually just go down. And for folks to share your name, your pronouns, and the work you do in relationship to the arts and also just to the world, that's a very large question. But if there's anything aside from your relationship with arts that you're like, I want to call this out, absolutely feel free. I'm going to ask that folks try to keep it to two minutes so we can dive on it. Cool. You got the terms on? Yeah, I won't even take two minutes. Oh, yeah. Also, please use the mic. Oh, yeah. Use it, Mike, because Hollerown's live streaming. So, yeah, I'm P. Carl. I go by Carl. He and him pronouns. I'm the co-artistic director at Arts Emerson, at Emerson College. I'm also the director of Hollerown. And I'm currently, I like to call myself a part of the resistance. So, yeah, there we go. Hello, my name is Vic. My pronouns are they and them. Currently, I'm a grad student in an arts and education masters program. But I spent a lot of time in the stage management production area of theater just kind of trying to fit that whole institution into my growth and identity work and how it relates to the communities that I'm a part of and also figuring out how to work for those people. Yeah. Hi, my name's Lexi. I'm the managing director of Peacock Rebellion. We are a queer and trans people of color arts organization using comedy for social justice. I do stand up in poetry. And yeah, we're based out of Oakland, California. Hi, my name's Kat Nakaji. I'm the production supervisor for pedagogical programs at the ART and Harvard University. I work with the Harvard undergraduates, particularly the Harvard Radcliffe Dramatic Club. And then the graduate program, the Institute for Advanced Theater Training at the American Repertory Theater. I love acronyms my whole life. And beyond that, doing a lot of activism work, I come back, I come from a background of carpentry and props crafting. So definitely a production end into theater. Hi, my name is Nick. I use they, them, pronouns. I'm a transdisciplinary artist. And what was the other half of the question? I think, like, the relationship between the arts or anything else you want to offer into the space. Oh, I'm a transdisciplinary artist. I've been an arts administrator. I've just, you know, any way that I could have gotten into making work and figuring out how to talk to people and relate to people, I've done it all as best as I could. Well, that actually leads us perfectly into our first question. So I think my experience with theater is somebody who came to theater in really weird ways. The running joke at my job currently is that I'm a history major who just really loved theater and never took any classes and just did a lot of plays. So what I'd actually like to do and offer to the space is talking a little bit about, and these questions are also open for anybody who would like to answer them. I don't necessarily have to go down the wrong. But just how did you get, why did you come to the arts? How did you get to the arts? What brought you to the place that you are? And I think also, how has that affected your analysis and how it shows up in your work? I ask very long questions. I can start, because I thought about this before I got up here. No shade. So when I was really, really young, my mom essentially threw me into theater, even though with all my resistance. And I was doing a lot of plays up until high school. And that's really when I started to question my gender and my sexuality and really shifted into community organizing. Primarily queer and trans youth in high schools in California. And then I got sucked into a lot of non-profit movement work. And that is when I found Peacock Rebellion. Or Peacock Rebellion kind of found me. And in 2014, we had our first standup comedy training program, which Lisa was also a part of. And I was a part of that cohort, but didn't get to finish as there was some transphobia that was coming up and some other difficult things. And so the cohort continued to move on and the program moved on. And the following year, we put together an all trans woman of color comedy based storytelling show, which I was invited to produce with Debbie, our ED and artistic director. And that is when I kind of started to see the magic of the Peacock Rebellion that we do and the way that we really use comedy and arts for social justice and for making people uncomfortable and challenging them. And building community, but also healing queer and trans people of color who go to our shows who have to hold so much trauma that they experience on the daily. And also even the ways that our artists get to heal and perform and if you saw our show on Friday, you kind of get an idea of that. But yeah, it's great. And we work really hard with our community and it's not always easy, but we do it anyway. And yeah, it's just been a magical hectic ride since that point. But yeah, that's me. For me, I grew up in a place or like in a community or family where children were supposed to be seen and not heard. So for me, art was always a way to like have a voice and to exercise my sort of like resistance against my family structure and like this world that was like not valuing me as like a whole being. I had a lot to say, even as a very small kid, you know? So it was constantly this sort of like, how do I push back but also push back without like getting in trouble all the time. So like, you know, finding that comedic timing, finding how to like allure the people that are around me. And I really got into during my middle school years, I was in Catholic school for most of my life. So around like middle school, I was like, I need to find myself. I was like this one summer, I was like, I really need to find myself. I went to the library and I took out the red balloon, really great movie and I saw the hours and I just was like, I need to be an actor. I was like, I, and I like was in plays and stuff, you know what I mean? In church and stuff like that. It was more like pageantry, you know what I mean? But after watching the hours, I was like, that's it. I am gonna be an actor. And I was already like dancing in my own time, but didn't really feel confident about like my movements. And that was really it. After that, I was like super determined and I behind my parents back started marking off all of the performing arts high schools I was gonna go to, but they were already like, you're gonna go to an all girls high school, blah, blah. And I worked really hard to get all the paperwork together and like audition for the school. First time I didn't get in, I was crushed. I had to go to an all girls school for freshman year. And then I got into this school and that was really it. You know, like I did a bunch of things after that, but really that was my entry point, just trying to like resist my family structure, which I knew, you know, I didn't have a full consciousness of it as a small child, but I knew that I wasn't gonna be able to exist in the way that I wanted to if I didn't find a way to have a voice and really through the arts is where I was able to like cultivate that. Thank you. Does anybody else want to, oh? I was gonna say, yeah, and similar in high school, that's when I like found theater because they would let you play with power tools there. And how great is that? So just coming into theater and getting able to work on things, work with little things with my hands, because it was a safe space where you got to be who you are and you could be a different person or you could be a character and I loved that and you could create a whole other world on stage and that was magical to me growing up. And then it was also kind of sad because immediately I had a really great high school that put us in contact with theater professionals in the area and getting out to going to see professional shows and going to calls and working on professional calls and immediately seeing that othering of walking into a room and being, oh, I'm the only person with color here. I think I may also be the only queer person here and just that dichotomy of like feeling this incredible safe magical space and then all of a sudden being really isolated was an interesting entry into theater. And that's sort of a discord, so let's continue. Yeah, I just add, I mean, I came to the arts because I'm obsessed with stories and I've been interested in and saved by stories my whole life, I sort of grew up in the public library. I spent all my time in the library reading and I feel like theater for me has been an opportunity to at least find some space to imagine the possibilities of existing. I think erasure is so intense in the trans community is just you really can't find yourself anywhere. And so I think in a way I'm in the arts, I've been sort of looking my whole life to find some mirroring back which almost never happens. And so now we're in this weird moment of 2017, I'm old now and suddenly some of these stories are starting to pop up and it's really quite, it's quite stunning I've been in theater over 20 years and it's actually taken this long to even imagine a story that connects in some way to my life and if you can imagine how long I've been obsessed with stories and how long I've waited for that, it's sort of mind blowing. So hence I'm in the arts as the one space where those stories might exist, so. Yeah, for me it was also around high school, I think that I saw a play at my school, it was the Laramie project and I had actually gotten invited by my friend who was in it and she was like, you can come with me so you have to come early because I have to be there. And I was like, that makes sense. So I got to like hang out while she was getting ready and I kind of just got to see the magic happen I guess behind the scenes and then to see it and then it was complex because it was the story about this white gay boy who had been murdered but who was not me but just seeing a story about a gay character come to life and I had seen it kind of erupt from nothing having been there with her call time was really interesting and so I went to the theater director of our high school program and I was like, I wanna do that. I was like, I don't wanna be on the stage though but like I have good like list making skills, how can I use those? And so I figured out from there basically in high school that I wanted to be a part of making stories that could somehow maybe possibly at some point represent people that also looked like me and so I went through college and I didn't really enjoy my program or the people in it because they didn't really give me that sense of, oh, these are stories for people about me or like marginalized communities that can also serve as healing, I didn't really get that from my program. So I ended up doing a lot of outside work which ended up, and so I got to see a lot of building production but then in turn my friends and family wouldn't be able to see it because then it would be too expensive. So I started thinking a lot about accessibility in the theater work that I was doing or becoming a part of and so I think just over time it's kind of molded from this wanting to see stories built with representation that was also really accessible and so I kind of just keep trying to build on what I've learned so far in that area. Yeah, thank you all so much. And I think some of that comes to like hearing a lot of key themes of like what was the first place that felt safe, right? So what was the first place that showed you that this thing could exist? And I think Kat, what you were bringing up in terms of finding that safe place and then kind of getting thrust into spaces that you're like this is still the thing I love but this doesn't feel like my space anymore. And so I think especially when we're talking about like trans spectrum folks and access to arts institutions, there isn't necessarily traditional career paths for us or like traditional access points. And so I'd love to just hear from folks and this is also just an opportunity to show love to people and organizations that you're like everybody should know about this. But what institutions or organizations or people do you think were formative in developing your artistic practice or career? And I think specifically kind of getting back to what I feel like folks touched on. What were those things or people that really were like, I exist, I can exist here? I thought about this question and there was one person that was like, oh my gosh. I need to talk about Sunil Swarup. He was a professor at Emerson College or is, I'm not quite sure to check the resume. And I was in a career theater class when I was at Emerson College and we did a devised piece and it was one of those just magical moments where the piece I'm sure was a devised piece done by college students. So it's probably not gonna win a Tony but it was so important to be part of that process and to suddenly be surrounded in a room and feel like I could see myself and everyone. And we were sharing these stories and sharing experiences and it was a really amazing moment for me in theater and with art to be like, once again creating that safe space and seeing as Carl mentioned, the mirroring of like a story that was personal to me was really amazing. And he also has a line that I've stolen from his which is I'm asking not telling. When discussing things I am asking you this but I'm not telling you what to think. That has been a really important conversation in my life. There's a few things. So once again at the public library, my babysitter took us to the library so it was like the hangout spot. There was a reenactment of like during Black History Month of like sojourner truth story. It blew my mind. I was like, this is really awesome and that was like a possibility model. So high school was really tough because it was like my drama teachers had like no idea I guess about like black theater. So it was just we did not have me and like two other people of color in the classes didn't have roles that we could grapple with. And like, I mean, and it was wonderful to do other things. You know, I like bug. I like all these other things that we got to do but it didn't prepare us for what the reality would be once we were outside of the school. So I went to this gay after school program where we did sort of youth devised pieces around STDs and STIs and how to talk to young people. Shout out to E. Dale Smith who was the leader of that program dramatically. Was amazing. It was like devised. I played, I was in a one person show where I played this drag queen who conceptually like in his framework started the Stonewall riots. At this point, I really didn't even know about gay history. You know, I was like 16 years old trying to grapple with coming out and got this opportunity to also play with gender which I didn't really even know at the time but I wasn't wearing makeup and I was like in full drag and it was amazing. So that was a really awesome time. And another one that comes to mind is being in Chicago, meeting SK and at a queer party and talking about my history and being like I would love to intern at the time about face theater. And that was a really huge moment for me because I got to help produce and develop and administratively like support art which now is invaluable for having my own career and creative business. I would have never had the ability to do those sort of things. So those are some people that I hold dear to my heart and experiences. I guess I'll go next. So definitely Debbie who is here over there. I'm being a beacon and guide and herder of queer and trans folks of color in the Bay who have been burnt out and chewed up and thrown out by the non-profit industrial complex and teaching me at least really new ways about how to engage with community-based work and liberation work and really learning how to undo a lot of the harm and trauma that's been done by these non-profits and organizations that are based in communities and movements and shifting that into something that's healing for me and something that is also positive for my community. And also especially I agree with what Nick said about being an arts administrator being able to bring in people who haven't had an opportunity to perform or to explore art and working with a cohort of eight trans women of color who have been through the ringers in their lives and give them a stage is still to this day one of the highlights of my life. And yeah, those were absolutely some of the best things that I think we could have done. I have a person and then an org that I think really helped me develop in my work and as a person, my aunt growing up was only eight years older than me, so we were very close. And I think she was always this, she also did theater, she was an actor in high school, which being not that far away from me I saw her as something that was very other in my family. Just knowing that she could say what she meant when she meant it was really important for me with who as somebody who grew up trying to continuously make myself smaller for various reasons, just internalized racism and you know, battling with what femininity looked like and didn't look like. There was always reasons that I wanted to be smaller and physically and vocally and I think my aunt really helped me to just grow into a person who could use my voice coming from a place of truth and honesty to myself. So I think that just as a foundation was really, really important. And then the org that I worked for many years after college, the Unusual Suspects in LA really helped me not only come into the like an arts administrator position, which I felt really helpful to learning what comprehensive like arts practices could look like, having people in positions where maybe it's not direct service right away to we did youth programming. If you're not working in direct service with these people, what does it look like to be an administrator or a person sitting more behind the scenes and still being able to support them in ways that make sense and understanding their needs from a different point of view was really important for me to learn in that position. And then also being critical of when there was white leadership in positions where most of our kids were kids of color and trying to learn what that meant in an org and then me as a person of color in the org also working with those people, that's where I think I started to learn a lot of questions in terms of infrastructure of non-profits and organizations and thinking about what I could do to support what I wanted it to look like or what I felt like it could be more comfortable in working with our participants. Thank you, Carl, did you have a minute? Yeah, I mean, gosh, I have so many people because I've just been working with so many artists over time so it feels weird to name a singular person and making a lot of stories. I guess I've named somebody recently. I've been following a long time, the poetry of Claudia Rankin and making a play with her right now and there's just something about hanging out with somebody who has been speaking truth for a really long time that has been really inspiring in this particular moment. So she's on my mind. But really just the number of kind of playwrights and theater artists that risk every day these kind of, in a lot of ways, hard careers to tell stories that have to be told. That's sort of what gets me up in the morning, so. Thank you. Yeah, and I feel like a lot of you are touching on this thing around like, what does it mean to see yourself and other people in art? What does it mean to actually gain the skills to understand how these institutions function? And so something that I want to talk about because a lot of what we talk about with breaking the binary as much as it's around like inclusion for trans folks, it's also about acknowledging the spectrum of experiences and that there's both privilege and oppression, right? So I'd like to have a little bit of a conversation in asking, are there specific advantages or resources that you feel like you may have had that allows you to get to the place you are? Because I think the thing that sometimes happens with theater a little bit is we don't actually talk about how our individual identities actually allow us to have more privileged spaces. Like myself, I was raised middle class, held books in the house, read all the time, and even though I was never really exposed to art, I'm like, I know stories. I know how to talk a certain way and I know that that gets me in the door in a way that some of my friends have hasn't. So I'd like us to have a little bit of a conversation about how that sounds good. Not everybody at once. I guess I'll start. It's hard and confusing to talk about privilege in a way. Personally, I'm a transracial about the meaning I was raised in a house of people who are white and I am Latina and I'm also a transgender woman. And so I have a lot of the privileges that I've been afforded or had access to or by proximity. But that does mean that I've had a college education that I've been steadily employed for the majority of my life and there's been health insurance and access to hormones and things and the being able to navigate those systems and structures of power are not as difficult for me. And I think in terms of my artist life, I think being seen and invested in and recognized as somebody within community, that there has been a certain social capital that I receive and am very privileged to have and that I think also that we don't necessarily always talk about or recognize. And so I am lucky to be here and lucky to be on this panel and there's a bunch of other folks in the Bay who could also be here and also be on this panel. And so yeah, just recognizing that and that I just really believe in building up other folks and so recognizing that it's always important to pay it forward and pass it on and lift up our folks back home. So, awesome, thank you. Yeah, man, I would add to that. I mean, I feel like I sit in a lot of privilege. Most of my privilege has been institutional privilege over time, so advanced degrees and non-profit, the health insurance that comes with non-profits and the institutional privilege of being in structures that provide some economic capacity and certainly navigating institutions as a white person is always significantly easier than navigating institutions as a person of color. You know, the funny part about being trans and talking about privilege, it's a kind of tortured conversation with yourself. I mean, for me, part of the way I feel like I was able to use privilege was by really waiting a long time to transition and doing it at a point when I thought I could survive it, because honestly, I think part of being able to have privilege meant not transitioning even though I knew many years ago but knew that probably I wouldn't survive that and so what you sort of see when you look around and this is changing, but certainly from my generation, most of the people that transitioned when I was thinking about it the first time around was they immediately lost whatever privilege they had by the transition and they lost jobs, they lost community, they lost family, they lost, and so I purposely didn't make that choice, it's not a choice, but I purposely didn't allow myself to be myself in order to be privileged. So it's a funny thing, all the things you give up to have some of the basics that you need and so was able to sort of have the sense that I would survive it a little bit later on. So I'm admiring of the people that are able to risk that sooner and really risk giving up privilege and it's interesting, I mean, even in the period of this where I run an institution and I sit in a lot of privilege, it's really interesting to have transitioned in that space and to watch the erasure that happens in that transitioning moment. So it's a really complicated topic. Thank you, I think there's something, there is something to be named about like what do you do when you're still trying to get stable or get resources or survive and I think that's something that doesn't necessarily get explicitly talked about, specifically in witnessing in terms, in front of cis people is like, why wouldn't people transition? And I think there's something where it's like, love yourself, it's your grade and it's like it gets better mess without actually necessarily acknowledging the systemic challenges that people are facing that act as a barrier and like preventing people from speaking, from stepping into their truth. So yeah, thank you. Anybody else wanna touch on this question? Yeah, I think in work and in life in general, I think for me it's always about acknowledging as a light-skinned black person how that looks differently in the world and how that can be, people see me and there's a certain proximity to whiteness that exists there for them and for me in perception. And so I wanna constantly acknowledge what that means in terms of employment, healthcare, just being able to have conversations and sit at certain tables with people and how my voice could be perceived in those spaces. And so I think about that and how I can use those opportunities to take it back home and to like work for people who may not be sitting at the table but who very well could be and also should be. And so I think about that and also the idea of having community and I think just having people who I know who could have my back in certain ways that I have access to in terms of financial or legal or medical. So just knowing that those things are in the back of my mind, even if I feel like I maybe I'm having a hard day and don't think I have those things, I actually do. So constantly checking myself and remembering the way that I walk and exist in the world is indicative of things that I may want to, I think I can ignore sometimes, but I cannot. And that even I think amounts to today, even like being here and thinking about how I got to this position is definitely, I think, part of those reasons. Thank you. Does anybody else wanna touch on this question? You don't have to. So I know my privilege as I come from a supportive family, they're supportive of me from a very early age and they've continued to be supportive and I think that's something that needs to be acknowledged as I came out as a lesbian at age 16 and then I was like, all right, I'm done, figured it all out, 16 years old, got it all planned. But to have a family and a partner that is continually supportive of a changing identity of continually questioning is really a benefit that I know not everybody has. So with that, I think what's coming up, I feel like so many folks are touching on in this moment is like the ways that intersectionality shows up for us. So like, how does the intersection of all of your identities, race, class, gender, physical, ability, impact how we are perceived and what access to things we have. And so thinking about flipping that a little bit, I would actually, and I know folks have talked about this a little bit, so to the extent she went into detail maybe a little bit less this time, but as someone who with your identity falling on a trans spectrum and also acknowledging all the intersectional ways that our identity show up, how do you think your identity has impacted your trajectory or experience in the arts field or specifically your artistic practice and how everybody up here does a little bit of everything? It makes me giggle because my family, I'm half Japanese. My family was so excited to hear I work at Harvard. I made it as an artist because I work at Harvard now, guys. And just sort of that idea that you can be Asian-American and you can be Asian and do art is an interesting concept to some of my family members. So that's an interesting moment there. Yeah, I think my trans identity, it's like what makes me an artist, right? It's like it's what gives me empathy. It's like what makes me listen to other, I'm a dramaturg and a producer. I spend a lot of my time just listening and thinking about what stories people are trying to tell. And I think it all comes from that deep sense of trying very much to see people and the stories they're trying to tell in as real and truthful a way as possible. So I feel like everything about my artistic practice comes from the sense I've had of being an observer to the world. And so I think it makes me good at what I do in that way. So yeah, so I think I can't separate out kind of that. I can't separate those things in. I guess I'm picking up the mic. So it's, yeah, so I think I used to do drag very early on in my undergraduate career. And this was before RuPaul's Drag Race was a big thing. So I feel like a hipster drag queen at times, but it saved my life being able to play and explore with gender, with a feminine side that I wasn't entirely familiar with. And that also became an isolating moment because trans women and drag queens like have a lot of combative moments. And there is a lot of tension between those two communities. And that is not something that like I have been able to practice or cultivate in my life. And something that like I had to give up as I transitioned essentially. And yeah, it's interesting the ways that like being trans kind of either pigeonholes you at times or opens up all these different doors that like you're not sure if you actually want to go through or not, yeah. It's interesting, I'm trying to wrap my head around it, but the first thing that's coming to my mind is for me, I feel like I live in this intersection of all these identities, right? But I feel like for what most influences my work is my politics as someone who's living with all of this, right? So yeah, I've been trying to think like a little bit further than my identity because I feel like I've been in so many spaces with people who share various points in this intersection and I've been very upset, right? And I've been trying to figure out what is it about that tension and I think it's like my politics are not simply just about like seeing myself, it's like what is it about that need, right? To be validated as a whole person who deserves to be able to live your life in the world, right? And I think like for me, developing a politic that is radical, that is about freedom and liberation and abolition and demilitarization, you know what I mean? To go beyond just like who I am in this body has really helped my work because I feel like I now have more and more depth to what I'm talking about rather than it just also being centered in me and my intersections. I feel like that is, I don't know, it's helping me also get beyond myself. I feel like there's just this moment, I feel like I've grown up in the middle of identity politics like love and heaven, which has benefited me in many ways in terms of being able to be a part of programs that specifically target my intersection. But beyond that, I feel like I started to understand some of my frustration with being in those spaces. It's like, when it was a huge thing to fight for marriage equality, why was I so angry, right? Why was I so oppositional? Because I knew in many ways that I wasn't reflected in a lot of the conversations that were happening and that a lot of money was being donated to groups that were not checking for me and other brown queer homeless youth in New York City, right? And that was an urgent need. And I really tried to figure out how to politically think about how to infuse that into the work and not just say that it's about me being whatever identities, because it spans, you know? No, and I, oh. I think that's so interesting, because personally, I'm in a moment where I feel like I'm constantly having to choose which identity card I want to identify with right now. Like there's only, we only have enough room to talk about being a person of color or being gender queer or something like that. So I feel like I'm constantly having to shift through these identities and pick up one to represent. And for me, that intersectionality is so important. So I think it's really interesting to how you move it outside. You know, one of those like geometric shapes that you get from like worms and Sonoma. You know, like those fancy stores or like at the airport. It's like, there's no separating it from me, you know? Like intersectionality is the life. You know, whether or not you come to terms with being a gender queer, gender non-performing trans person at 50 or 15, you're living in that, right? So for me, I just don't think that there's some sort of like stagnant experience of like, today I'm black, tomorrow I'm not black, today I'm trans, you know? It's just like I'm living and experiencing that maybe in consciousness or unconsciousness. I think really for me, it's more of that. And that's why I say about the politics because that is really what has helped me. And when I enter a conversation, I can't negate those things, you know? So if I'm talking about blackness and otherness, my queerness is present, you know? The fact that I am an artist is present. And through consciousness, I want to name those things, right? Who I am and what I'm bringing to the table. But yeah, that's it. No, thank you. That's actually perfect. I won't lie, I've joked with Professor Kailot that a lot of my facilitation style is tricking people. And so asking like really basic questions, I'm like, I know this is 101 and I know y'all are brilliant so you don't take it to the next level. So I appreciate that. But I think like what you're bringing up, Nick, and like Kat, which y'all are talking about is what is beyond simply the representation, right? Because as somebody who like basically tried to turn a history major in ethnic studies and like some performance studies stuff because my school didn't have it, like looking at like the trajectory of like black theater over a century, right? Or looking at like queer theater and how do we move past simply, look, we're on stage, done. And specifically, not just to us as individuals or as artists, but really asking institutions to be like, what comes next? So I think like something about this weekend that was really exciting, like we were here, got to see transcripts on Thursday, Peacock Rebellion on Saturday, and then Nick Keisho, a little black last night, and seeing all of these things in a span of time and sitting in conversation with each other versus like only having one perspective. So I think what I wanna ask is what changes do you think need to happen in arts institutions or in the field in general to move past simply just this representation? And what does it mean to actually for like trans artists, arts administrators, and cultural workers to really be deeply embedded in how that ideology and like what you were saying, Nick, like a politic, not just like identity, but the politic part of it present in their work? Yeah, I have a strong opinion about that. Having been around the not-for-profit theater for a long time, which is its economic viability. I mean, the thing that, you know, one of the things I really see about, I mean, it is really true for trans artists and that the economic viability is so challenged that the capacity to really, you know, have like a life that's almost impossible in the arts and it's more difficult where you fall inside and outside of institutions. And I can't say enough, like we're doing just an ounce better, just an ounce better at telling more complicated stories about a world that looks more like the actual world is. But if you look at the makeup of our institutions and who gets to actually, you know, have economic, you know, any kind of economic stability, it is not queer and trans people, it is not people of color in those institutions, it is not. And I think that, and so what ends up happening is, you know, we throw some, a little bit of, you know, like, hey, come over and perform in the space and, you know, look at, we represented and then people are like, yeah, but I don't have money to take the train home, right? And so I feel like this reality is so incredibly deep in our creative community. And, you know, I had the experience of gathering some trans folks in New York and like just the lack of resources in the trans community in particular, trans and gender queer and, you know, that that was, it's just so profound. And so until we get some reality check on ourselves about that, because we're not lacking resources inside of these institutions. And so, but somehow those resources don't spread out. And so that to me is where, you know, one of the, I mean, there's more things, but that's one, that's a big one. Yeah, I feel like it also just has to be beyond just the job, right? It's like, you can't just be trying to answer these questions at work. They should be questions you're asking yourself when you're voting at your community board meeting, whatever, right? Because it is just too easy, as you said, to program specifically when you're gonna be thinking about these issues, they need to be integrated, right? Like, I often think, you know, when people say like, why aren't there more roles? It's like, when I've stepped into classes at universities to share my work, very often, if you look at the syllabi, when I am there or when another person is there is the only time they're talking about alternative stories or trans or GNC work, right? So you think, okay, in the university, we're not teaching these things or creating comprehensive room for these things. And if we are, it's still marginalized, but strategically centered. And then in the theater, we're doing very similar things. And I think whether we're talking about medicine, theater, art, whatever, it's like, we can't continue to strategically be like, how do we do this in theater? It just needs to be in line. Because as you said, it's like before the trans or the GNC artist shows up, they're dealing with a lot of systemic issues, right? And it's like, the theater can't solve in that one interaction. Can't solve all of what I'm bringing, right? But if you're actively involved in that, then you know what I mean? It's a different conversation because you're fighting for me to be able to be a full sustainable person in the world and the theater won't have to fork up $50,000, right? To change my life in this year, which a lot of times is what needs to happen, right? And that's a lot to ask from single engagement. So I think it really is about comprehensive involvement in your life all the time. And that for some people is like, whoop, right? But it's just like what it needs to be. Yeah, I think kind of, I think building off of what you've both said in terms of resources and comprehension, I have an example of the same org that I worked for, which was, you know, we did intergenerational programs so parents would come with their young children and do these programs together, but we offered childcare. So if the child was under five years old and they weren't able to participate in the program itself, we had people who were on site who could, they had activities and food and things for the younger children to be able to be there so that their parent or their caregiver could also take part in these theater programs, which in one way it's like, yes, these are very siloed moments and experiences for these people, but just being able to understand the practice of thinking of what else might this person need in order to be able to sustain themselves today is as a question that I think needs to be thought about more in terms of not just childcare, but the transportation question that you brought up or different ways, different types of accessibility, was it whether it be physical or audio or visual, just wondering what other needs might people have that they might not openly or directly communicate that I think we could be more critical in being more forward-thinking about those things. Yeah, there's something about like being, okay, I'm from the Bay and so I'm gonna say something that's like super-duper wooly. So I pulled a card this morning. Oh, yes, I am that person. Like a tarot card this morning for those of you that are like, what card? Like your business card, like what? And it was talking about kind of like generosity of spirit, right? And so I think there's ways in which as institutions, when folks are trying to build inclusion work, it's still trying to operate within the same model of how they normally do things. And part of it, I think what you're bringing up, Nick, is this idea of how do you do the thing before somebody has to ask you for it? Or how do you try to create space before somebody has to demand it of you that feels super important to highlight? Because the tough part at the same time. The tough part at the same time is, if you think about like administration and budgets, do you put in your budget like extra cash for those who have less and like POS? You know what I mean? It's like, also structurally, what does that mean when you're talking to like the accountant? You know, tax implications. Like that's, you know? So it's not, I know it's not easy, right? So it's something that like we actually have to grapple with and it's not an easy thing. Do you say, oh, all cis white men will get less and you're like, hmm, technically, like that is a form of discrimination and like structurally, how do we grapple with those sort of challenges? You know, and I know that it's real. So that's why I'm like, it's not as easy of an answer. It's like, slash all of their budgets, you know? Yeah, no worries. Yeah, I have a very like, a very boots on the ground perspective. Like I work in production. So a lot of the time it's sort of, how do we take these bigger concepts of where we're trying to work on and what does that look like at a load in? And I think some, we did this training at the ART and it was really exciting to hear that some of our production departments are starting to fold in gender identity into some of the forms that they send out, of just like they send out surveys to sort of take inventory of what your skills are. So like you're good loading in life, so you can focus, but also including space to be like, and your preferred pronouns. Like that's an amazing step towards just to clue that if you were on that crew and you get some of that survey that you'll suddenly say, oh, this is a place that is thinking about that at least, that there is, that that thought work is being done. But I grapple a lot with how to, how do you make a 50 person call more inclusive? How do you make that feel like a safe space? How do you make the one other person who is, you can tell the person of color there feel like they're included in safe in it? And that's a struggle for me. Touch on that. I, yes and no. There's so many great pieces that are coming up in this conversation and it's, you know, I feel very blessed to be in the situation that I am as managing director of Peacock because these are things that like, we try and practice and learn actively and there's like the short term harm reduction things around like, okay, we always have ASL available at all of our shows. We always have a cent free space at our shows. We always have an accessibility coordinator and you know, just all of these different things and like are able to take requests around accessibility and like are actively building out these programs, centering black folks and trans women of color and especially black femmes. And that is part of our vision for the future and the movement and you know, integrating a liberation framework into our everyday work and I think it is vital that there is these short term plans with a long term plan in mind of how are we gonna end this fucked up game that like we're all stuck in and that like this shouldn't just be a career for one person it should actually be like liberatory for all of us and that that is difficult and hard and not easy to even think about or conceptualize by that this is a great first step of coming to the symposium and yeah, I'm learning and like making space for other folks and challenging myself around that but yeah, I think everybody had really amazing points. I was gonna say yeah, just another thing that I realized that I've come to a point where I have a little bit more power in the situation that I'm in, I'm the production manager and I'm enjoying getting to disrupt the network of like these are the four designers we use every year, they do all the shows and that's it and taking a chance to be like no, we're gonna look at other people and we have a chance to be more diverse in our choices and we have a chance to bring new people into our network and I think that's a really great thing I've discovered that I can do. I know, so thank you all, y'all are so brilliant. Like I just need to stop, I was like I wanna take notes, you're supposed to be facilitating, I wanna take notes and so I'm like but it's great that it's live stream because then I can go back and look at it and listen to things and be like that thing. So I think the last thing I wanna add on and I know this was the question that I said, I was like I might add something, this is the one. Considering and I think this like several of you, I think Lexie and Nicky both touched on this like really, really deeply of like this cannot just be work that happens at your day-to-day job. Like it has to actually be about building liberation as a whole because yeah, our institutions by themselves cannot change the world. They cannot save someone's life by themselves but if you are invested in freedom and liberation for everybody then your institution like the folks that you're working with and you're trying to support and engage their art therefore benefit. So I guess a question that I have is like aside from like just inclusion within the arts institutions, what type of general practices do you think that like either institutions or individuals should be doing to contribute like to fight against the repressive practices that are happening and specifically some of the regime that's happening now. I think something that I've thought about a lot is like thinking about districts that you don't, that's not just your own district, you know, like community boards, that's just not your own community board, the schools that other children go to, not just your children. You know, because it's hard, right? Like you're trying to like sustain yourself and your family and your life and it's hard for all of us. Like if you have privilege, yes. But like on a day-to-day basis we're all dealing with challenges and that's different, right? So I would say that is something like think beyond your own situation, understand how legislation affects people other than you, right? So if you're like, oh, I'm not Muslim, right? And for some people that's enough, right? It's like finally, I'm not a part of the targeted group. So I think that's like really important, it's hard. I'm like, I have a list of websites that I check. There's like really comprehensive material going out right now about like who your senators are, who your congressmen are. I wrote them in my notebook of like my daily to-do list. You know, just like things that like normally I'd be like somebody else is handling that, right? Like I'm doing this. I'm like, I know my community organizations that I'm working with and I'm donating to that do the work that I care about. But I'm like, actually I need to move beyond just like, you know, the LGBT black artists and poets and like brujas that I hang out with and expand myself a little bit to see what else is happening. Really random. I never think about people in rural areas. I'm a city person all the way. I've born and raised, but I was reading some texts about rural areas and the sort of stereotyping of the demographics in those areas and thinking like I've met a, you know, in all the time I've been doing, I've met a lot of trans and GNC people who are in rural areas and I'm not thinking, right? When I'm making these decisions and when I'm looking at legislation about how these things will specifically affect those people and what organizations are there that they can reach out to, that would be a really great place for me to fund, right? Maybe instead of giving all my money to the ACLU who other people most likely will give to. So I think, you know, that is a sort of practice that I'm trying to cultivate more in this time. That is absolutely great. I do know that we are getting close where folks could keep the answers to sync so everybody can touch on them. That would be great. I'm also better at that so I'm gonna stop talking. I was just, something that I've been thinking about a lot lately has been encouraging people to think again into the person who's political. Your small choices can have a political meaning and can be politically empowering. To the point of you choose to be part of a CSA that money is going to a local farmer that is supporting a local community like to realize that even small choices can be empowering or you can, that small choices have political impact and to really drill down into the choices you make every day. I wish I had a list of like 10 things that you can do to be a better person but I don't. So I think that I will say that this is a hard time for all of us. This is also new to many of us who, I think especially like younger folks who aren't familiar with living in a repressive fascist regime and so learning really about the ways that things are rapidly shifting and what that's gonna mean in the short term and long term for all of us. And I agree with both what everyone said so far and the person who's political. And I also think it is really important to push ourselves to get to, I don't know if it's that next level or kind of the next stage for you what that might look like in terms of making space or devoting time and energy to folks that are really being targeted right now but also dedicating and voting yourself to like a long term vision or dream of what our lives can look like and what our liberation and freedom can look like and especially listening and supporting those visions and dreams of like black folks especially. And yeah and challenging the ways that like we do our everyday work to make it more accessible, make it more intentional and just yeah resist. I feel like everybody's had really great points up until now. No I think that for me, I guess I'll speak personally for me has been really about thinking kind of and making a point of, making it beyond myself and the identities that I know of that I've experienced and that I've walked through the world with and really paying attention closer. I know that this is, I've paid closer attention to this election and this political situation more so than any other before and like on a daily basis figuring out where to go to get what information and really trying to challenge myself to when I read that article and I've thought about that question and then close the computer or taking it a step further and then going and having a conversation with somebody about that and really thinking about the implications of a certain piece of legislation or a certain community who might be impacted that's not me and that's not the ones that I come from and then asking those people or cause I was one of like think about the balance between like asking the oppressed to educate me and also wanting to hear the voices of those people. So there's that certain balance too that I try to think about is how to get the information from those voices without feeling like it's extra work for them. So I think that's a really important thing that I'm trying to keep focus on is that I need to get it somehow and that's up to me to figure it out because it's important for me to figure out how to resist and support the resistance of communities that are not necessarily mine and maybe having faith that somebody from another experience will also have my back in this moment and next whatever a few years as well. Yeah, I mean, I just add at Hollerown we talk a lot about common space practice which is really just a fancy way of talking about resource sharing. So I think it's a really great time for us to be just kind of assessing the resources we have and figuring out how those resources are useful, helpful in a possible political scenario. And so for me, I'm just always thinking about like, I just went through a process of doing all the hell of changing your name and gender on everything and like, so how do I share all that with everybody I know? Cause it's like a terrible, terrible process and long and confusing and overwhelming. And so I feel like always I'm trying to think about what do I know that can be helpful right now in a really critical time for people who are at risk and even I think simple things like my spouse and I over the years have done a thing called family dinners for our friends which we haven't done in a while and like it's like a really important time like to have family dinners again like just like how do we all come together and we can all cook or we can all share a meal or so I think it's big stuff and it's really just simple stuff cause we sort of, we really need the connection of one another right now, so. Great, well I just wanna give it up for our panelists and just highlight a couple of specific action things that I heard to close us out. So the personal small impact, what is the thing that you individually can do day to day so that we can impact change? Fighting for and paying attention to communities other than yourself, what's the whole quote by the time they came for me there was no one left to fight and then also just be a good human, think about someone other than yourself and your own folks talking to our people to get them to do the same thing which becomes that individual thing, those conversations that as much as it might seem like work and effort I know I've been having a lot of talks with family can make a big old difference and then I think just remembering that we are the ones that we've been waiting for so thank you all so, so, so, so much and I think I'm gonna invite SKF, y'all are welcome to sit here and look pretty, you're welcome to go and get back to some seat. Yeah, we're just gonna close it out real quick and say goodbye to the live stream, the HowlRound audiences, thanks so much for tuning in. If you're watching this in the future, you know, hey. Hello from, goodbye from the past.