 Kenyans anxious for news on the next president two days after a tight vote, and eight policemen killed in Sierra Leone's protests. This is Plus Politics. I am Mary Anna Cole. Two days after Kenya's general election, officials are yet to announce who is leading the presidential race in East Africa's original powerhouse. Confused citizens were seen struggling to make sense of the divergent tallies from the media in a nail-biting closing race. Meanwhile, some citizens were worried that the media's different tallies could inflame claims of rigging, which had sparked violence in past elections. Many have urged fellow citizens to wait for the official results. The outgoing president, who Kenyatta has reached his two-term limit and has endorsed veteran opposition leader and former political prisoner Rai Laodinga for president after falling out with Ruto after the last election. Kenyan election authorities have proceeded with tallying cautiously wary of the mistakes that cost the Supreme Court to nullify the results the last time and ordered a rerun. Joining us to discuss this is Jim India. He is a policy and research officer, and of course he is an analyst. And also joining us is Ago Gorbo, who is a foreign affairs analyst. Thank you so much, gentlemen, for joining us. Thank you. Thank you very much. I'm going to start with you, Jim. Give us, paint a picture to us of what's happening right now in Kenya. I mean, I know that everybody is waiting, some are seated on the edge of their seats waiting to hear the results. But it's taken two days after the elections, and we're yet to get a final result. Some say it's too close to call, but you're the man who's on ground. Give us an idea of what's happening. All right. Thank you very much, Mr. Right now. What we have is the independent election environmental commission in Kenya is doing the tallying because what we had in the country was the result would be done at the polling station and then they would be electronically transmitted to the National Tallying Center, where the independent electoral and environmental commission seats. So right now the independent electoral and environmental commission has received all the different results from all the 290 constituencies in Kenya, and they are doing verification of those results, and the verification is being done alongside 20 agents and international and local observers to just ensure that the results that we have at the National Tallying Center are the same as what was announced at the polling stations. Now once that verification is done, the chairman of the electoral commission will then go ahead and announce the results of that particular constituency. So as we speak right now, they've announced about 30 or so constituencies, and we have about 260 more constituencies to go. By law, the body has seven days to announce the results. So they have said they are on track. They have until Tuesday next week. In 2017, we did not get a result until four days later. So by any signs, we are actually on a good sign. But of course a lot of Kenyans are anxious, as you said, because the media had started doing the tally before the commission did. And different stations had different results, because they were tallying from different polling stations. So obviously they're going to have different results. But as we speak, the media has stopped doing the tallying, and they are all now waiting for the commission to do the tallying. Let's talk about how this selection has been largely about economic class, the hustlers versus the dynasties, which I also know that ethnicity is also sprinkled around it. Let's dive into that. So the two main contenders, which is you have William Muto on one side who has been pushing for the hustler narrative or what we call the bottom-up economic approach. Essentially, he's saying that majority of Kenyans are at the bottom of the economic pyramid, and a lot of government investment needs to go to the bottom of the economic pyramid, so that you then bring those who are at the bottom, bring them up. And he's really pushing. His message resonates a lot with the hustlers. So that is those who drive motorcycles, those who sell vegetables, the low-income owners in the country. And it has pitted them against the wealthy and the rich, who are called the dynasties. And on the other side, Bailu Dinger, who is the son of Hormel, the first vice president of the Republic of Kenya, Jaramungi Gengu Dinger, he is more or less calling for social protection programs. He is saying that because, again, majority of Kenyans are poor, the government needs to invest a lot more money into them. But he's asking that the state government should give at least 6,000 to 2 million poor families every month to cushion them against poverty, against hunger, and to give them the chance to sustain themselves. He's also pushing for free education from primary school all the way to university. He's pushing for free healthcare and access to healthcare for all Kenyans. So you have these two extremists. On one side, we need to inject money in the lot of people to make money on their own. But on the other side, you have someone saying we need a social protection plan that actually ensures that first they have money and then we will then create more jobs. But of course, both of them are trying to appeal to the youth who are the largest majority, who are the largest constituency in Kenya, just like any other African country. Unfortunately, young people do not register so well in this election. We only had about 39% of the registered voters being young people. Our voter turnout of the 22 million registered voters, only 14 million turned up to votes. That's about 65% voter turnout. But again, many people do not turn up to vote for this election because they do not see how it affects their life. They do not see how whichever way. So it's Rai Lodin and William Bruto how that will impact the quality of their life. Interesting. Let me come to you. Let's do some history, 60 second history class here. Let's do a brief comparison as to what's happening in 2022 as opposed to what's happened over the years. And let's see if there are any shared differences, you know, compared to what's going on today. All right. Let me say Ashanti Sana. All right. I think that when you compare and you contrast all that happened in previous elections in Kenya, you know, what will come to your mind will be from 1992. So you had Arap Moi, then after Arap Moi, you had Waikibaki. And the reason why the entire continent began to take place of the Kenya election was because of the unfortunate violence that happened in the aftermath of the 2007 election. And then you remember what happened with the constitution reform. I'm sure Jim can talk a lot about that and how you had elections happen in 2013. Incidentally, I was in Kenya for the elections in 2013, where it was between Uhuru Kenyatta and Rai Lodinga also. I also got into Rai Lodinga also during that election. And it's interesting because you have the eyes of the entire regional media picking that, but for me, the violence that happened in 2007, it could happen again in 2013, whether lessons had been learned. But thankfully the 2013 election was peaceful. And you had Uhuru imagine as the president of Kenya. 2017 also to a lot peaceful compared to what happened in 2007. So what we've seen as elections in Kenya has happened as it should happen is the eyes of the continent of the rest of the world moved away from, like you said, has moved away from the fear of violence happening to whether every day ordinary Kenya stands to benefit from whoever emerges as the winner of the election of the election in Kenya, which of course is where we all hope and what we hope should be the legacy of the democratic process in Kenya. Whether it's in Kenya, whether it's in Ghana, whether it's in South Africa, or even Nigeria, the continent wants a free, fair, great election. We want to get to a point just like when I called elections in Ghana where the election observer mission then said, look, we want the time to happen where the internet will not send observer missions from Europe, from the Americas or from the Commonwealth to observe elections because they believe that the local election body conducting elections does not need outside supervision or a stamp of credibility. These elections are free and fair based on what we observe. Rather, we can look at all of us as Africans and say, these elections have met not just our local standards, original standards, but global standards of how elections should be held. So I think like the rest of us who are brought now and having to wait until the election results are finally out, we'll keep our fingers crossed. I think the legacy of the election in Kenya, in terms of what the conduct has been compared to what we saw in 2007 and the years before that. Let's go into the politics of it all. It's very intriguing for those of us who are looking from the outside in that a Kenyatta is supporting Arilo Odinga as opposed to a Ruto who is his number two. Let's look at the politics there. How do you explain that to the average person? I think that it's a question, interestingly, that we also have a living Nigerian experience. I was talking to a politician a couple of days back and I was trying to child him that, look, if you have a political party and then you move from one party to the other party, does that in any way mean that you're a credible politician we can trust? And he said no. The party is just a vehicle for the politician. They're all the same. So many African democracies are puncturing at that level. You can count on your fingertips the African democracies that have the candidates that really believe in their party policy or their party's agenda. They're basically looking for a vehicle to improve. This is why you can imagine that in 1992 you had William Ruto backing Uruk Eniata. And then afterwards he decided to run for office and he said no. He's not going to come back. He can't come to me and they were upset with him. He won't give back his godfather. And then he ran for the election, obviously opposed to Uruk Eniata. But interestingly, remember when they ran in 2013, you know, both of them on the same ticket. I spoke with the African Union head of political affairs and I said look, people are concerned that you have William Ruto and Uruk Eniata who are wanted for war crimes, had charges to answer. If you have them win the election, how will the African Union have a president and a deputy president having to answer war crimes charges? And he said no. Let that time come. We'll cross the bridge. Win the election. It is the popular need of Canadians. But they best represent their interests. Because the rest is history. Those charges were eventually dropped. And I want to tell you, I'm sure that, you know, that Uruk and William Ruto were on the same ticket because it was politically expedient for them at that time. When they had used their youthfulness one for the other, I'm sure Uruk realises it's time for him to look at the problems and maybe explains why you had them, I guess, and yet you would not have to get in support of an outgoing president, Kenyatta. Interesting. Let me come back to Jim. Jim, let's talk about how crucial this particular election is to the people of Kenya. And of course, I'm wondering what source of reforms are Kenyans looking towards. I mean, looking forward to. Especially after Uruk and Yatta is leaving office. What are the things that they're looking out for? And how does that determine how they vote? So one of the reasons why this particular election is very important is it's a transition period. We live in, you know, Uruk and Yatta have had these two terms. And he is handing over power. He's agreed to the transition. And like many transitions, they need to be managed. Because we're coming from a president who invested heavily in the infrastructure of this country, invested heavily in connecting last month with connection, invested a lot in education and healthcare. And those investments came at a price. They came at a very huge public debt. We have borrowed. When Uruk and Yatta came into office in 2013, our debt was at about $2 trillion. When we were moving to office, our debt is close to $9 trillion. So it's giving us to the huge. And the next study of the session needs to come and figure out how we pay off the debt that we owe to the international community. Also number two, Uruk and Yatta is leaving office when a huge population is employed. Again, that's a story that is very common across many African countries. But we need to figure out how do we get employment for the majority of our population. Those are some of the two priorities in this particular election. How do we pay our debt and how do we get our Yatta employed? Beyond that, we also have a huge population that's now educated, but we do have enough capacity in our higher institutions of high learning. Before he left office, he gave university debt at about 20 different universities because we're trying to expand that infrastructure to allow more young people to go to higher education. So this particular election is put into Kenya because of that. It's the economy is what is on the ballot. The economy is what we are looking for. Both candidates had a very valid plan and valid manifestos to doing the economy and the issues that I'm raising. Let's talk about the issue of corruption. Just like Kagawa mentioned, corruption is an issue discussed everywhere in the world. But then Africa seems to have more of those conversations. What would you say about the level of corruption in Kenya and what would a leader need to do to stem that tide if there be any? Both of the candidates, the leading candidates on the ballot, we have four presidential candidates, but who are the leading candidates? And William Ruto. So Ryle Odinga has come out to be a very strong anti-conductual court leader. He chose a woman deputy president, Matakarua, who has a long history of standing on the right side of justice. And in fact, when Matakarua was appointed deputy president or running to Ryle Odinga, she's not just going to be deputy president, she's also going to be the minister of justice in the traditional affairs. And one of the reasons why that became very popular is because they were seen as anti-corruption procedures. They have for a long time been a great corruption. On the other side, you have William Ruto and his running mate. During the electoral process, the running mate was actually enacted for corruption in a court of law. So they have been seen as not being anti-corruption, but they have made it very clear in their manifesto that if anyone is found capable of corruption, then they will be prosecuted. Part of what needs to be done, and both parties have said it, is that the judiciary needs to be independent. Now the only way to get the judiciary to be dependent is to have a fund that is controlled by the judiciary and is not controlled by the executive. And so right now, there's been the establishment of the judiciary fund which comes directly from the ex-checker and is not controlled by other parliament or the executive. That way, the judiciary can actually make very fair judgments without the fear that their funds will be blocked either from the executive or from the legislature. The second thing that is done is that other institutions, institutions like the police, we have an anti-corruption commission. We have a directorate of criminal investigations. All these institutions now need to coordinate their efforts better to ensure that we are stopping any charges in spending of public process. The last thing that needs to happen is that even the criticism needs to be a lot more vigilant in keeping the public officials who have just been elected accountable so that our involvement in the electoral process does not end at the ballot. It does not end at voting, but it continues even after that that we continue to participate in the budget making process and keep our leaders accountable to track if the things that they say they will do, they are actually voting. Let's talk about some of the reforms that the electoral reforms that Kenya has in place. Maybe countries like us who call ourselves the Big Brother of Africa can learn from. Don't forget our elections are just around the corner. We are in campaign season. I understand that prisoners and people in diaspora can vote in Kenya and they actually make up about 3 to 4 million in total according to authorities of the voting population. What are the other things that you think Kenya is doing in terms of its electoral process that we can learn from? Excellent. I think it's a brilliant point about how the Kenyan electoral process has also provided lessons for the rest of the African continent. I'm not too sure if we have to wait 7 days or 4 days before the election results come out in Nigeria how we are going to go through that. I would have to say admire their patience in having to wait for the results to be out 3 to 4 days. If you had that happening in Nigeria, they would be panning on you. Even with the plethora of fake news and all of that information going on, I know they are having a difficult time having to control the narrative in terms of how the news is coming up in terms of officials. The chair of the electoral and banter commission talked about how difficult it was controlling the news coming in from those sources. I think it's a problem we are going to have to face also because the Kenyans didn't get very early on the technology electronic transmission results. By 2013, it was even used even before we began to use the CAD reader and that process which we now have in Nigeria with the viewing photo. We spoke with Ironhack about that's the Nigeria electoral commission about how within the narrative for so you can have people in groups or classes get involved in the election. They say that how difficult it was for us to even get this current electoral law passed. So 2020 general elections will be done and the next hurdle will be to see how to get the diaspora voting involved to see how to get those who are in prisons for example get to vote. Those who are in so-called essential duties that get part of the process because it's a huge chunk of the numbers of people who don't get to vote an election in Nigeria so I think that's something we have to learn very quickly from also too. I think another thing I saw with the election that was going on in Kenya is so we do the CAD reader thing so if you don't have a CAD reader for example then you can't vote but I saw that they could vote with identification like ID cards and all that. But here you can't vote with ID cards with a PVC. So it's a question about what we've been able to do with our data aggregation. If you have one data which is key into a SEBA we should be able to use that whether you have a PVC any document you have which has a barbed you can store in a central SEBA which is a barbed identification document you should be able to vote with it. So those are things I think we should be able to trust in the elections and I think even up to now Nigeria has been able to help other African countries into the electoral process too. They go with the ECHONEC which is the economic community of the election of SEBA so we provide logistic support and Nigeria leads that team able to share experiences and also resources for electoral elections in Liberia and I think once in Sierra Leone also too and the Gambia Nigeria is also used to provide it but I think the point Jim makes also where we are too as a nation what happens after electoral process how involved is the electorate after the choice of candidates in ensuring that what we call Nigeria the dividends of democracy happens we don't have to wait for four years or five years and say okay we can go to the ballot to see whether the person has worked or not worked we should be able to bring a scorecard on a particular basis to say on this parameter how has this person fed this particular policy how has this person fed because we are able to check this very quickly it will put the politicians of the candidates who have won the elections to make sure that they are able to score themselves themselves out before the date of the election so I think that's one very important point to make which colour force can lend from accountability I also think that you know the problem Kenya has a Kenya has never suffered a coup d'etat they've got a democratic experience and since many have gone I think even Kazania also too immediately don't have that problem with them the problem people have pointed out in the West African even in Central Africa also too the whole of Rex you know the blocks which formed the African Union the Ritual Blocks what have you done to check through the peer review mechanism what is happening none of us have observed missions to what elections this election met local standards this election met regional standards because the same people are pointed back at the regional bodies representatives when the coups are happening say where were you when this festival actually on and after one to three months you're in need of electoral promises so I believe those are lessons that we can compare those with countries like Kenya to see how to make the democratic experience a more wholesome experience rather than what we are going through we are not being necessarily represented in the policies or government that they interestingly elected very good finally let me come back to you Jim let's talk about peace I'm a peace ambassador so I'm always looking for peaceful strategies when it comes to the electoral processes how or what strategies I think I should ask what strategies peaceful strategies has Kenya over the years been able to use or apply that's helped because just as we said we remember 2007 very vividly because it's still irreverberated across the continent but now Kenya is experiencing a peaceful hopefully hand over to whoever takes over after these results are read and it's been able to also manage information dissemination so far just like I said in a very patient manner what are some of those strategies that again we could learn from the rest of the world could learn from because it seems like Kenya is you know on the up and up so one of the things that I mean changed up 2007 we've got a new constitution we've emulgated a new constitution in 2010 and that constitution did two things one it created what we called the national co-teacher and integration committee whose sole mandate is to ensure that throughout the year throughout the electoral process we've been maintaining peace so if any politician spews hate speech or is incitement to violence this commission needs my input to charge them without offencing it's an offence to actually incite violence it's no offence to use no hate speech but the second thing that we also did after that commission is we created pathways and opportunities that political disputes could be dealt with in a courtable so in 2013 while loading and disputed the results of the presidential election he went to the supreme court he was hired and the judges ruled against him and he accepted the results and we all moved on in 2013 he again disputed the results of that election he went to the Supreme Court he presented his case and that constitutional court ruled in his favor in his election so we have seen from past experiences that actually there are legal meaning legal way of resolving a natural dispute and now this does not just happen at the presidential level it happens at the governance rate it happens at the member of parliament race if you have any issues with the process you can go to court, present it and you know you will be happy so I think that particular confidence that people have had with the judiciary as I can say there is no point of us fighting because the courts actually treated their job but the last thing that has happened is that the civil society has voted on an incredible job of preaching of doing civic education among especially the young people saying hey we need to be together we have a country after this election and so those three sort of strategies are part of the reason we are enjoying the people we have even right now people are saying if anyone with huge results of this election the Supreme Court will open please go and contest at the Supreme Court Well good luck to you and of course while you wait for the results we are hoping that the people of Kenya will be pleased whoever turns out to be their president Agogo Obo is a foreign affairs analyst and Jim India is a policy and research officer thank you so much gentlemen for being part of this conversation thank you thank you thank you all for staying with us we will take a quick break when we return we go to Sierra Leone to find out what is happening someone a few people actually were killed as a result of a protest that took place in Sierra Leone we will be having the head of a security agency in the country speak to us after this break