 The next half hour we're going to speak about the internet and too often people think that the internet is a global thing The worldwide web right it must span the whole globe Well, no, that's not entirely true Governments in different parts of the world have been trying to shape the internet having have been trying to have it their way by either Regulating access content or even shutting down the internet all together Let's start with you missus come to cost return from I can the technical organization at the back end of the internet How do you deal with this pushed by different governments to unravel the internet to fragment the internet? Thank You Peter. Yes. It's an excellent question And it the key thing to understand is as you say the internet is not just what you see That is the content of the content is provided by a single interoperable Foundation a technical infrastructure like the foundation of your house You can't see it, but it keeps your house standing and The that technical foundation which is part of icons remit on the domain name system Coordinating the technical identifiers that keep it working Keep it functioning for 30 years has never gone down But also the servers the cables the satellites all the infrastructure that actually makes the internet Function that is underneath the house of content if you like and what governments typically see is the content And they want to regulate the content sometimes because they don't like it And they want to protect their citizens and we don't expect government It's not up to I can to say to governments you can't regulate But what we need to make sure is that when those governments do that? They know the technical consequences of that regulation because the internet does not recognize country borders It is a global network of networks And if you start to mess with that foundation because you do it made by accident You take away the security of the foundation you chip and you crack And we all know what happens if you get too many cracks in the foundation of your house Your house falls down and then you have no house And so the content the taking it for granted that it will always be there you can't do that But that's a coincidence. That's an unintended consequence and I can spend a lot of time educating governments Plan think about it before you do that. We will help you the other side is intentionally politicizing content that the internet to try and take away the role of other stakeholders and handed entirely over to governments Yeah, so different things, but they're both risks. They're both fragmentation risks So we learned that the foundation is maybe a bit under attack It's threatens to become unstable Gabenga if I turn to you you use your paradigm initiative You told me you were based in Lagos, Nigeria, Africa Whereas a lot of people still have to be connected to the internet It seems that you're actually like entering a house that is increasingly unstable. How do you deal with that? So we one of the things that many of us take for granted is that everyone is connected, right? We assume that everyone is connected, you know businesses Create products that require you to have reliable consistent internet access. We're talking about, you know AI and all of various things, but the assumption is not correct There are at least over 2 billion people who don't have access to the internet not because they don't want to But because of reasons like investment infrastructure, they don't have access to the internet But beyond that, there's also a category of people who used to have internet access But for some reason Their governments because they don't want them to get access to certain services cut them off So you have the people who are connected. You have those who are not connected But you also have those who are disconnected and that is a major problem Unfortunately, one of the lessons that we learned during COVID is that when you look at young people who are learning People who are going to work. It was impossible to do that offline While they were locked down. So the kids who didn't have access to the internet were not learning Not only were they not learning They were losing the new lessons that their colleagues were learning and right now that means that either they are Unconnected or disconnected we now are creating a digital divide that is getting wider There are people who have assumed access reliable access But there are those who don't have internet access other because they're not connected or because they're disconnected And one of the bigger challenges we have is that there are governments who are used to controlling everything controlling the news Controlling information you get and now I've now seen the internet as a place that you know Dissidents and even any young person can say what they want And so they shut down either shutting down the internet or shutting down services on the internet and that is a problem That's why when we have conversations about fragmentation One of the things we also want to talk about is the fact that Everyone can't just take it for granted that everyone you want to communicate with will always be offline We'll always be online some will be offline either because they're not connected or because they're deliberately Disconnected if we speak about this group of disconnected people who once had internet now now not anymore It feels like that's an example of where the internet has been indeed politicized as you mentioned Um How do you push for this digital right the right to be connected as from maybe a technical or a non-profit a foundational Perspective how do you fight for this? In the front of politicians who want to control What's the playbook? Well, that's a good question. So that there is um There a part of I think I'm right and saying and I'm not an expert on this But increasingly the internet is seen by many as a human right Internet access and you would know this better than me, but this is an increasingly a a a narrative that Society is is is demanding is expecting and I think we can for many of the reasons you say gmanga I mean you can understand absolutely why because being connected to the internet, especially if for example during covid You're in connected to the world or not depending on on what position you're in So I understand the drive for that and I understand why governments want that And so from Iken's perspective, the goal is to maintain the stability And the interoperability of the technical layer because without that Anything you want to do with content is at risk. Yeah Swamp that a little bit maybe because interoperability is a different word. What is like? How do you I'll explain so We coordinate the identifiers of the domain name system That's the web addresses as well as the numbers and the rules the protocols That drive the traffic around the network of networks. It is the internet So if you dial if you're sitting here in lisbon and you type into your browser I don't know. Let's say web summit.com Okay, and I'm sitting in new deli and I type into my browser new deli New deli web summit.com. We see exactly the same site because there is only one Registered website in the iana system that we oversee that is for that for this for web summit We know who they are and they're registered Now if you splinter the internet if you fragment the internet You lose the ability to have sing you that singular focus So the experience that we have of the internet today will change And eventually you fragment into what some people call digital islands And of course people want when most governments want when they say we want people to have internet access What they mean is access to everything the way we have today So it's a it's a misalignment You know, you have to make sure you keep the technical infrastructure safe So that you can continue to deliver on that promise if you're a government Good thank you. Do you think that in africa? Where a lot of the digital infrastructure still needs to be built up That there is a bigger risk to become a digital island because the control over that infrastructure can already be imposed while in other regions that's maybe More established already that the internet is open and free for everyone. Is that a risk? There's a risk there's a risk for that And what you have is sort of an irony You have a lot of governments saying We want to be connected to the world because the world is the world as a market is an economic opportunity But at the same time you have governments who want to control the narratives and don't forget the world is a lot more divided now Than when the internet was being designed And unfortunately what you then have is a sort of scenario where governments want to control not just content But also the flow of data You know you have governments now saying that any data you process For our citizens should be processed physically here in many cases. It's not just for the economic reasons It's also to be able to have access. Don't forget. There are many governments who have said to big tech We want you to take this content down because we don't like it and big tech has been able to find a way to say You know what this content is global We can't just take it down for you in some cases they do that So a lot more governments want to control what people see a lot more governments also want to be able to say listen If you're going to operate and use data for our citizens We want that data domiciled in this country and that's a big challenge One of the reasons why we started, you know, studying the trend from 2016 and the film they you know The real you saw earlier Those are three different films that we made from the report we've done since 2016 to date The fourth film is actually in production now and we'll be ready for the international human rights day on on december 10 And what we're doing with the films is to tell the story of what happens a very simple example We predicted in the last film we did that senegal will shut down the internet And we all sort of laughed about it because we were like will senegal really shut it down But we've seen what has happened over the last few years. There's the politics of it There's the technology of it. There's the business of it and there is unfortunately As we see in politics in many african countries the big man Literally side of things where somebody wants political office and because they want political office They will do anything including shutting down the internet. So when the internet was shut down earlier this year We were not surprised because we've been looking at this trend for a long time But the real challenge now is that you now have a lot more citizens who are connected Who are using that connection that governments are promoting so that they can get, you know More income to then question the same government. Yes Let's go into some of the internet shutdowns blackouts that we had last year internet played a big role in geopolitical events voting Ukraine as recently in gasa for example in ukraine We've seen that the internet was taken down or went in a blackout at a certain moment starling stepped in Now also in gasa as a technical organization. Do you want to drag in into those kind of conflicts? That can actually have a big importance on the ground Yeah It's it's a it's a really important question. Peter. Um, well, I can tell you in in the case of ukraine and russia That's exactly what happened So, I mean it's very well known Maybe not to everybody here, but um When the conflict broke out the ukrainian the part of the ukrainian government that runs the country code We call it the cctld a country code top level domain um Said for ukraine came to ican and they have a group and ican of all the country codes top level domains inside ican They said ican we want you to take dot r u the russian country code off the internet now It's impossible. Can you do it? No First thing is no, I mean, I I don't know whether you really get but it showed a major misunderstanding about how This actually works because this is this consensus based Multi-stakeholder policy over decades that puts together the rules around how ccs are allocated So it's not a plug in the wall in los angeles called dot r u that you just go by You know, we don't want the russians anymore. So that just to be clear. No is the short answer But much more importantly than that when ican was created and when it was When it was the transition from the oversight of the u.s government happened in 2016 Which was a very important point for the global stakeholders to run these critical infrastructure identifiers In the bylaws it tells me as the ceo. I can you must not be a political organization Ever you cannot you are neutral and you must never take sides. So these are very tight firm guard rails So we couldn't say to the ukrainians Well, yes, you know what this week. Maybe we'll agree with you next week. We don't know We also can't be told to do that by another government not the u.s government Not any other government and just because people there is this misconception the final thing I would say about it is If for some reason which is you could do it and we were allowed to do it neither of which is true Had we done it we would have been fragmenting the internet infrastructure ourselves Which is obviously not all you want to do so all those reasons but but I don't want to underestimate How politicized This issue is Those top level country code domains sometimes have millions of domains under management in their countries They are critical infrastructure in most countries. So I get it. I get why they think it's important Isn't that a fundamental threat also to your organization? Because you could reason that when this item is so politicized Politicians maybe will think like well if I want to take down or attack the critical infrastructure That domain names that the internet is then let's go for the the role of I can see you Well, unfortunately, it's much more serious than that um Yes, the risk there is a risk that the internet infrastructure community the coordination that makes the world will be threatened by political means And this is the threat which may happen in a couple of years time at the at the the world summit of information society In inside the un processes. They will review the settlement in 2020 years ago That created this multi stick holder governance model that has been so successful In giving us the internet we have today because by the way that's why we haven't I mean all that great content All that innovation did not come out of nowhere It was the ability to deliver it safely and through sustainable policies that made it possible But yes, you're right. There are some state actors There are some governments not many but some who don't like that for exactly the reasons you say And they may seek To try and change that in these fora like like the like the wisest plus 20 review This is not the un saying we don't like this This is just the forum where the governments come together and they vote It's the un and they would some of them like the all those other stakeholders All the people all the 5.6 billion internet users to go away I mean only people that make decisions of the governments But isn't there because like governments especially at at the multilateral forum now they like to talk about ai It's the regulating ai. It's the new shiny shiny topic But actually they should speak about internet governance, but that's maybe not that sexy Well, um, you know, I think that is this is a very important issue this week It's come up in most of the panels we've been on most of the meetings we've had And I think what happens when you see ai come into the mainstream as it appears to have done much more than I mean It's been around for a long time But we all know this is a very recent phenomenon and it's the same a little bit like content for the governments They look at it and they go, whoa, this is going to be scary for our people We have to do something about it And what that means is that the question of regulation and governance of the internet Is more on the subject topic of governments And there is more of a risk that they pull that handle on regulation and that's the unintended consequence Because it's not that they shouldn't react. It's up to them. It's not up to us But if they harm the internet's infrastructure and it's technical functioning by mistake Could be triggered by ai I agree with you and and the fear or the anxiety that we have to control it And that maybe we control it at a country level because it makes us feel better that we can do something for our citizens But unfortunately the internet doesn't work like that. So we have to be really on the front foot I'm very proactive about continually educating them to say be careful. Be careful Manga we already Mentioned a lot that the internet is and especially the internet infrastructure is critical infrastructure But I can imagine in in Africa a lot of people are still Battling for access to water or to food or to other or to even electricity What is your assessment there is digital? Where is digital or the access to internet digital infrastructure? Where is that positioned towards the other basic needs? The internet is basic. Um, and I think that was proved in 2020 Even if you had water you had food and you had everything and you were not connected You couldn't go to work. You couldn't earn money To buy the water or to pay for the water So one of one of the critical things we've learned over the last few years particularly when they literally the entire world's shutdown is that digital opportunities are not a nice to have They're literally the drivers of the world that we live in In you know getting access to water in paying for it in processing it now you have to use digital channels And I I also wanted to touch on the you know the multistakeholder process that you know That you know you mentioned and the reason for that is because the one of one of the development goals that we talked about and agreed When the entire world met in 2003 for the watchmate information society was an agreement to talk about the internet As multistakeholders not just as government As civil society where I belong as you know private sector as a technical community where icon is as government And as we now have these conversations Um, you know as as you said in as I said in in in two years we're going to have this You know whist is was in 2005. We're going to have whist is plus 20 where governments will come together And I think it's important for everyone not just people who are involved in a daily basis But everyone who do business online and who do who are literally interested using the internet to also follow This process and make sure that governments alone don't make that decision that we all contribute to making that decision Because at the end of the day What the internet will look like in the next 10 years in the next 20 years should not be a decision that governments alone will make One of the outcomes of the whist is process No, I was just completely agreeing with you and and I couldn't just say good in a debate when I'm sorry You're not supposed to have us agree with each other But but no, I mean you're totally right and what I would say to the to everybody here If you're here pitching for business and looking for partners You probably assume that the internet is always going to be the way it is today And what we're telling you is it may not be don't take it for granted And and you're making an excellent point that the criticality of it now Is both a tremendous opportunity. Look what we've done in the last 30 years I mean who could have imagined where we would be 30 years ago But that we can't assume the next 30 years will be like that On the other hand everyone in this room can do something about that, which is what you're saying You know, you can talk to your government representatives You can get involved in the internet society and I can in the internet governance forum And these are all open to everybody multiple languages lots of online content and Do have your voice heard? So, you know and with the risks will grow because of the things you're talking about They're not going to get less. They're going to increase Well, the risks also grow for physical infrastructure because you mentioned earlier like Governments want increasingly like the data stored on their own soil in data centers Europe as well has been driving this push to data localization Is there a risk that there is also this this control over physical infrastructure? Well potentially, I mean, I think this is back to sort of regulatory Issues and you know how governments or groups of governments like in the EU decide that they want to implement policy Which is what you're talking about here We have enormous we have frequent ongoing dialogue with the EU with the member states With all global governments. We have 180 at least more than 180 global governments inside I can in the government advisory committee including the itu have a seat there for example Our technical partners as well as as the EU it has its own seat in the gang and We must connect and understand and share The under the consequence discussion and it's everybody, you know, this is the multi-stakeholder process It's about people who don't agree with each other Coming you are you speaking enough you're speaking to governments, but are you speaking enough to citizens I Well, this is why we're at the web summit It's icons first visit the web summit And this is why we're here Because we I agree with you we do need I mean icon is a technical organization But we all have a stake. We are literally the stakeholders In how the internet is for the next 10 20 years exactly as you say So I think yes, we owe it to everybody here to say don't take it for granted But do be aware that you can do something about it. So I don't want to frighten people I think I want to empower them, but I also don't want people to be complacent And yes, I do think we need to talk more To people particularly these kinds of guys at this summit who are looking to make their Businesses on the internet. Absolutely. We can't assume the internet will continue to exist I think just for doing it, you know nothing We all have to get involved and there's so many opportunities internet governance forum opportunities And even just to follow the un ongoing process and to make sure that we make our voices heard We want the internet to work for us and to empower us Regrettably we have to wrap up I think the main takeaway here was like when you click open the internet on your smartphone later Don't take it for granted It don't take it for granted that it will exist for years And if you want to become the boss of the internet apply for Your your job as the CEO of icon. So thanks for the panelists. Thanks for speaking up and thanks for listening Thank you