 Hello and welcome to NewsClick. If you're watching us this and you see Jai Deep sir and me and Leslie and you don't see Sathan then you know this is not a 420 grams. The crazy thing is that three of us were last on a show when we were doing our own awards show, if you remember. We were doing our own greatest of all time in Olympics for India and obviously the government has taken a cue from us a little bit and they also do their annual awards the National Sports Awards. This year's National Sports Awards have been at the focal point of a lot of debate because in a year that had seen very little sport action. We have the maximum number of Arjuna awardees ever. We have the maximum number of people getting sports awards across all the categories ever. And a few names have also like caused a little bit of consternation among a lot of sports fans, sports persons themselves. And the omission of some names has also been a huge problem. So there's without like getting too much into this speculation, let me just ask like a simple question which is the question that perhaps everyone will ask. And I'll ask like Jayeshwar and Leslie, both of you this. A lot of people are getting this award. It will encourage young children to take up sport, right? Isn't that big for giving so many people this award, these awards? To an extent it is perhaps to the right, but on the other hand, so it might convince a lot of children to know that it is very easy to get that award. I don't have to work much harder to get that award because if 60 people are getting every year and by God's grace, if it is increases to 80 or 100 in the next couple of years, then since there is a crowd, there is always a chance to get into it. So I would say that previously people were unlucky, perhaps people were unlucky because they realized that they had to work very hard to get this award. So the world is getting easier, so perhaps getting awards is also getting easier. So just to give it in terms of numbers, just talking in terms of numbers Leslie, the rules say that unless under exceptional circumstances, the rule says like 15 Arjuna awards and one Rajiv Gandhi Kail Ratna per year, correct? Now of course the Rajiv Gandhi Kail Ratna, this is not the first time that more than one person will get the Rajiv Gandhi Kail Ratna. A lot of times this has happened, especially in Olympic years when there have been multiple medalists, so they have been given Rajiv Gandhi Kail Ratna. But this is the first time there are five people who are going to be getting it. And in the Arjuna award similar situation where they say that you give 15, but again in a year where there has been no Olympics, no Asian games, 27 people are getting it. So how does, I mean, is this like again like at the cost of now sounding like I'm schizophrenic? I'm going to ask like, isn't that diluting the award a bit, Leslie, to carry on with this point. Yeah, just building on from the deep point. The thing is you get into sport and you get into any sport for that matter, Olympic, non-alumpting. We don't get into it because we can become an world champion easily or it's accessible. So most of the kids who start training, they know how tough it is to reach the pinnacle of the sport. And it's not the accessibility or the ease in which you can reach that stage that drives you, but certain other aspects. And so when you start your sporting career and we all have interacted with a lot of sports persons who have spoken about their early part of their day careers and all that. Getting the original or getting any award for that matter is the least of the things that could be motivating them to train every day, pack their bags and go over 5 o'clock to reach the training when you have knowns you've trained, forsake your studies, forsake a lot of things to build towards where they are. In that regard, the number of awardees this year is not going to be motivating any children towards sporting career. But on the contrary, it might become a deterrent in bringing out the, it might bring down the stature of the awards in itself. Because when we were coming up in sport, I mean firstly as a competitor when we were training also, there would be a lot of things. And I come from Kerala, so Kerala Sports Council used to organize a lot of interactive sessions with great athletes, former athletes, Olympians, Asian medalists and all that would come and motivate us, give a talk to us. So introductory line would always be there when our coach or the manager of the camp or the hostel facility would say Olympian X, Y, Z and Arjuna Vaudi on this year and he will speak to us. So Arjuna Vaudi, it's huge in stature, so much so that a few years back another very good friend of mine, Amar Kouama, who is part of the Relay Court still, she received the Arjuna award, she was not there during the award ceremony because she was competing abroad. So she received the award separately from the sports ministry and post that award she came home with the trophy. She was just visiting me and she also thought that it would be nice to show me the trophy because she was, I mean of course related, it's a high point in her career as well because this is a big recognition for any athlete, this award. And to get it after winning at the Asian level to get it and it's an indication of all the hard work that she has done so far to reach where she is fighting injuries, fighting whatever adversaries that she has faced through the career. So really, really strong, she showed me the award. I just couldn't bring myself to touch and carry that award. I mean that much of respect, I mean you look at the award and you know it's your award, I can't touch it. You keep it in a space, let me admire it. So that's the kind of respect that you have for the award. And then when these happen, as journalists we come across controversies each and every year when the awards are announced, when some people come and talk about favoritism or nepotism or things like that. Some people come and say that they deserve it, they didn't get it, some people say that these guys don't deserve it. So a lot of blame game, months linging, everything happening. I mean it's not just a number of awardees also but the entire ecosystem of controversy that it brings. It's bringing down the stature of these awards to a state where even the athletes themselves would find it less of a... So it's one of the key parts of it. Leslie is a bit of a poet but we are more like pragmatists. I mean look at him, he has a messy poster on his back, it says lost zero. I don't mean poet words, it means our numbers. So honestly, this is something that you were telling us rather just before we started recording. And the idea of this award, Leslie is like very beautifully put it, he understands the weight of that trophy, all the heart, the blood, sweat and tears that goes into getting it. But from the practical point of view, the Arjuna award is more than just that trophy. There is a lot of benefits that come with it. Do you mind just telling us a little bit about it and how much that matters in the award itself for an athlete? Just those benefits. There are so many benefits for us. Obviously one of the main benefits were free train tickets. You can always get it. There are benefits about getting your job at the government level, at the PSU level. There are benefits of being considered on priority basis on several issues. If a state government is forming a selection committee for selecting a team for a PSU or for anything else. So they will like some experts to come into it. And there are fees involved in it. And the experts will be considered those who are Arjuna awardees. Those who have been recognized by the government. So award carries a lot of benefits, lots of benefits are added. And at the same time what Leslie said is also right, it carries huge prestige. And award also has a reasonably good prize money. Of course, that is one time. But for the rest of the life, if you are an Arjuna or if you are an Khel Vapna, if you are a Pancham. The rest of the life, it gives you an advantage at many, many phases of the life. There is no doubt about it. History has proven that if poetry and prose are in conflict, then mathematics will solve the question. Just like that, in Arjuna award, Khel Vapna, any national sports awards, there is mathematics. Which is there is a point system to determine who will win these awards. Now I have managed to pull out the point system from what I have seen online. And it is on a four year cycle for the world championships, world cups and the Olympics. For gold medal, it is 40 points, silver 30, bronze 20. For Asian games, again on this cycle. So this gold medal is 30, silver 25, bronze 20. On a two, on a biannual or an annual cycle, it is the world champs and the world cups. For which you get gold 25, silver 20, bronze 15. And the Commonwealth games follows this last one's point system. Now according to this, what I see, the one clear thing that I can see is this Asian games and Commonwealth games, there is a slight discrepancy in the point system. It is like the obvious one clear thing. If you will put gold in athletics in Asian games and gold in the Commonwealth games, then you will get less weightage in the Commonwealth games for that. Correct. In athletics. In athletics, correct. Absolutely, like in wrestling for example, I assume, let's say Asian gold is much more worth than at the Commonwealth level. Yeah, we win almost all the gold medals at the Commonwealth games, while in Asian games, at the most, we have one is two, I guess, in one case. But in athletics in Asian games, we do reasonably well. We do reasonably well. But it is, I think, far more difficult to do it in the Commonwealth games in athletics. Correct. It's impossible actually. After Milka Singh, it was Neeraj who won. Yes. Okay, so it's a perfect. Thank you for that segue. In the Commonwealth games, we did reasonably good in athletics. We had some medals in 2010. I am talking about gold medals. We had gold medals in 2010 in athletics. No, I don't remember. So Neeraj for example, like the best thing about Neeraj Chopra is that he is like, he must have mathematics career. So he has won gold in Commonwealth as well as in Asian games. Correct. But he has not been considered for... What I am asking you, since you are doing the mathematics, you will be able to tell us better, which I don't know about. Somebody like Neeraj, as you were mentioning, let us take about Neeraj only. If Neeraj, in a golden beat, if Neeraj, in a golden beat, if he throws a world record, he makes a world record throw, which is accepted as a world record. And after that, he never gets a medal in the nationals, called the world championship, where he will still be a world record recorder and where he will be in this point system, where he will find himself in the point system. That's why I am asking you. Correct. So actually, this point system does not like that. The one that I have in front of me does not account for gromperies and stuff like that. And that's why the bigger problem is you exposed a clear flaw, which is that it only considers Olympic disciplines in specific events, in specific festival events for those disciplines also. There are various disciplines that are also omitted from this point system entirely. Correct? Like cricket is outside of this point system, but cricket is outside of the purview of everyone except God, perhaps. Actually, they're also outside of the purview of God. No. You see, if tomorrow Sunil Jethri, in a friendly match against France, 2018 world champions, scores a hat-trick, certainly. So where do you put him? What's the point system says? Where does he figure in that calculation? That's why I am asking. So football, the awards, I mean, this year we have two awardees for football, right? Some Beijing is there. So football's nominations are forwarded by A.I. professionally. One by A.I. So their criteria, I mean, it goes back to poetry, I guess, because I don't think we can justify it by, I don't think we can justify it by South Games gold medal, right? Because South Games doesn't have funds. So how do you justify it? So it's a different criteria altogether. So Sunil Jethri or any player for that matter, it depends on what they have been doing in their careers and then you get nominated, I guess. And so that creates a bit of a problem, which we will get to subsequently in this conversation, which I wanted to address and which I feel is very important. Why don't you tell us what the problem is, the inherent problem itself? We can just get into it now only. The inherent problem is the nomination process in itself. So what is happening is across the sport, the Federation nominates athletes for these awards, except for this year when it was relaxed and the self-nomination was allowed, which opened up a little bit of a, probably a dilemma for the committee members because there were many who applied in an individual capacity and someone like Sivak Eshavan, for instance, who deserved these awards around 10 years back when he won the Asian medal and when he was competing and representing India at the Winter Olympics, becoming a hero of sorts over there in the Winter Olympics cycle, but I mean, hardly recognized for all his achievements in India. So he applied and he received the award this year. So again, no criteria was followed here because if the criteria was followed, his performance was 10 years back, I mean a few years back, so it can't be considered in that, it's not part of the four year cycle either. But the point is that he or someone like badminton player H.S. Prenoy who directly applied again and Prenoy has been vocal about the Federation not forwarding his name for these awards because they have a problem with him. So this is what is happening with this nomination process. The people who come out, the athletes who have been forwarded for these awards are not, I mean, deserving or not, it's not the point here, but the ones who reach there are the ones who are on the good books with the Federation, who are not rebel, who don't point out, who don't dissent. And these are points that we have discussed in New Zealand in previous episodes about when we talk about players and their voices and how important players are there to stand about. Especially now in this context, in the US, entire professional sporting world has come to a stop in the US protesting against violence. I think it's fair to say honestly that it's good that Naomi Osaka and LeBron James are not Indian because they would not win the Arjuna Award. They would never win. Going against the system, they would definitely never win. So the problem is here. So what is happening with this nomination system and slash the point system which is more or less subjective because in the committee forms, there are superseding powers, there are vetoes that come into play and certain players have been pushed for the award. It's that it elses in exerting a control over the players and their free will. And also on their right to express whatever is right or wrong, in a particular field we are not talking any ways about social issues or racism or anything here. If an actual federation, if for instance, Hockey India, we know that there are a lot of ills that happen in Hockey India. If a player stands up and points that out. Sorry Leslie, I have no idea what you are talking about. Nobody knows what the ills happen in Hockey India. If we knew. So maybe we should ask the Kail Ritna from this year, Hockey scale Ritna, Rani Rampal, who by the way has been receiving all the award that is out there to be received. And she of course, again, we are not questioning whether she deserves it or not. Exactly, I have been trying to wear away from the reason I have been trying to wear away from naming athletes and questioning why they are getting the award is simply because at a certain level after a point you realize it's not, why should an athlete like protest like or why should, why is it, why are we criticizing the athlete in this case? Exactly. Because I mean, again, like this is like a nice segue into like two ladies who had applied, self nominated themselves for the Arjuna award. Both of them have received the Kail Ritna. They copped a lot of criticism also online, of course, for like seeking a lower award after having received the higher award. So again, like Jaydeep sir has told us exactly the kind of like specific benefits that come with like winning the Arjuna award. Jaydeep sir, do these benefits also apply to the Kail Ritna or what is the difference like between the Kail Ritna and the Arjuna? Is the Kail Ritna a higher award as people are constantly saying, can you please give? I think it is definitely a higher award because when you give, giving some award, 27 and some giving 5, then it must be a higher award. And it has been, it has been, it has been, it has been almost a, the name itself suggests it has been, it was constituted as a, as a parallel to Dharatratna in sport. Sir, now that you said it, sir, the name will be changed, but okay. It's parallel to that. It seems, but the thing is that by logic if you go by logic then the benefits with Kail Ritna should be the same at every place if not more, if not more. But if we go by what we read about what two of the sports persons who have already received Kail Ritna but also applied for Arjuna have to say that in their respective states they did not get the same benefits. Then it is a, then it's a dilemma which none of us can solve actually. Because it's a huge fault of the system and that has to be, and I think at least the sports ministry was right in denying these two sports persons the Arjuna. Because somebody who has got... I also read about the issue that why these athletes, why these sports persons applied for Arjuna when they have already received a higher award. But I just don't understand what are the benefits that they seek or what is the recognition on the info that they seek from the state government when we are talking about an award which is a central matter. This is a central sports ministry award and the benefits come from, for instance the benefit you mentioned about pasts for the railways. It's a central agency, it's a central organization and that is regardless of which state you belong to and what are the recognition or lack of recognition that is there. You get all these benefits, right? So what are the missing outcomes? State government jobs for us. I think state government jobs are something specific. I think so. That's what I have been given to, given the impression. Because I have not seen there what they do. But I think when state government puts out an advertisement for recruiting certain number of sports persons in a particular discipline, their advertisement simply says those who have won Arjuna, received Arjuna should apply. So the thing is if the Olympic medal is which is actually Malik and if the world champion which is Mirabai Chan who applied for a job who would say that you guys have not received Arjuna or so, we are not giving you a job. That is there. That is the reason perhaps they have been denied. It's been their logic. That episode itself shows the absurdity. So we shouldn't be blaming athletes for saying that we deserve the award. We deserve the award, we need it or there has been foul play or anything like that. But we definitely can't help but criticize them for the kind of attitude that you are bringing onto the table and it definitely brings down the stature of the Olympic medal that she has won or the world championship because you are fighting for the wrong reason here. You have gotten a higher award from the country and you better fight to be in that national team. I am talking about Sakshi Malik over here. She lost in the national trials recently. So she better be worried about her form and going into the upcoming season and possibly try and make it to the Olympics to defend her medal or change the colour of her medal. But that's not the priority it seems. You fight for awards more than you fight for medals. It is what your job should be. That is right. No, no, sorry, I am quite enjoying this conversation. What Leslie says is right but I have a feeling those who are in the right in the middle of the thing, on the pitch, on the field they realise it more. Perhaps if you ask one of those two sportspersons that why did you do it, they might give you instance by instance when in a particular place Arjuna Wadi was given more preference to the Khel Ratna because of some old rule which has not been changed by some officers in that particular department or in that area. So there is some anomaly that must be there. So it should be fleshed out. What Leslie says is right. Ideally after winning World Championship and winning Olympic close medal they should be more worried about their own form than anything else. And after receiving the countries our highest awards also. So it's not like they were deprived. So if it was Neeraj Chopra who was complaining because Bhai Baba was getting into that point earlier he has not received Arjuna. No, he has got an Arjuna award. He has not got a Khel Ratna. So ideally he should have gotten it earlier because 2018 was a landmark here for him. He won both the Continental Championship and the unprecedented feat of winning at the Commonwealth Games which is a much tougher competition in athletics. So why did it not happen? Maybe the Federation didn't nominate him but that creates the pros and cons. Is Chopra worried about it? As Chopra came out and said that he deserved it he doesn't care because he has a larger goal in his mind. He knows that he is there. And anything short of an Olympic medal that's what he has been continuously saying. Anything short of an Olympic medal is a failure for him. So he is working towards that and he is not bothered about getting into all these discussions and getting unnecessary. So let's just forget, Neeraj Chopra is a very talented athlete who will win a lot of things. I am not even going to say if all holds to form. Is that because I am being really hopeful here. He will do a lot of great things for India. And of course he is at some point of time he will win this hugest laurel that this country has to offer sports persons. But I am talking about someone like Arpinar Singh who won a gold at the Asian Games in triple jump. He has not even won the Arjuna award. Let's forget about everything else. His coach received the Dronacharya for Arpinar winning gold in triple jump last year. But yeah, athlete has been ignored. Now I understand that coaches are really important and purely both of them should be lauded, applauded and awarded. I think that is one great flaw in it. Perhaps another person from the same discipline has got it. That is what makes the difference. Again sir, this is my thing. Some disciplines people are getting it because there is nobody around. So let's give it to you. If you look at it, you are diluting things for the sake of it. That we have to give it. In the first 1961 list of Arjuna award in Tennis Ramanathan Pishnan got it. He reached the Wimbledon semi-final that year. So if you come down to now, I am not naming anyone. If you just manage to get into first 128 in Wimbledon, that is the main draw. Then you might land up getting it. Just because you don't have anyone around, that is the reason. Should it be like that, that one progression is recommended. The progression will of course recommend their boy or their girl they will recommend. That is their job. It would be nice of them also. So you have to give someone from that particular discipline. Does that mean you have to give someone who has not really done much and if in one discipline, like you said in some disciplines, three or four people have done well and give it to him this year and next year we will give it to him. Is it right or it should be a balance to an extension? That is why I am asking. So actually what you are saying about these federations, what I mean to say is the worst part of the entire thing is the dilution of all of it. The standard should be exacting and if somebody doesn't meet it, then thank you very much. You try and we will see what to be done next year. But not that nobody is reaching the standard you are bringing down your award. That will not do any justice to even people who have rightly received it. So there is one, like when you are talking about this federation thing, it brings up a very interesting point because in the selection committee, Deepa Malik was part of the selection committee. She is a former Rajiv Gandhi Khel Ratna. She is the first Indian para-athlete to have won a medal at the Olympics at the Paralympics. She is great in every regard of the world. She has done a lot for this sport. She was part of the selection committee while holding the post of the head of the Paralympic Committee of India. Paralympic Committee of India recognized as an NSF. But there is an obvious conflict of interest in that there is a member of the committee who is also the head of this federation and it has led to a situation where a lot of para-athletes are winning the awards. But she has been elected as what and in what capacity she has been selected as a medal winner? Yes, as a former great athlete. And then this is where you should send Saurabh Ganguly as the member of the option of the committee, isn't it? Apart from being this year's president he is former India captain also. And I think he scored a few... Now that you have said it and if Jay Shah is watching us when you are next year, count on that. So if that is so, then Sahadev was a good wetlifter I believe in his younger days he should be there. I can name a lot of federation bosses who has done reasonably well during their sporting days also. Isn't it? So in that case, if that is the criteria then it is very dangerous. Now I will be honest with you. I will be honest with both of you. I am very conflicted about a lot of these para-athletes being awarded these awards. Conflicted in the sense that it is really great because these men and women rarely get recognition in whatever sports they take part in in this country. We as a country don't like respect athletes with special abilities at all. On the other hand, I also find that a lot of other athletes with special abilities have been completely ignored. Like deaf athletes, blind athletes, special Olympians they've all been completely ignored out of this list. So that is one huge conflict which perhaps then provokes the question is there a need to perhaps also separate these athletes and create a separate award for them because their achievements should not be equated at all with able-bodied athletes. There's no reason. I personally believe their achievements are bigger. The strife, the blood and sweat and tears they put in is much bigger than anyone else. So is it like I don't know, Leslie, you can perhaps help me out with this help everyone who's watching also resolve this if you have this conflict. Am I asking for something outlandish? Am I saying something wrong? No, you are not. See, the idea of stature comes here. You answer the question yourself when you say that we as a country don't respect the achievement of these athletes. So what makes you think that a newly constituted award just for special athletes would give them recognition? The award won't even be considered as an achievement in itself. What Arjuna stands for for me if you ask me or the National Sports Awards, any of those awards is an integration where every athlete of various disciplines come on a platform where everyone is recognized on an equal footing for the achievement that they have done for the country in competition. And in that regard the para-athletes are equal in their qualification for these awards and they should be part of these awards as well. Yeah, being as far as the number of the scope for the numbers involved in these awards there is always a limit to how many athletes can be included in it. Yeah of course certain athletes deserving athletes, para-athletes would miss out on that just like normal athletes are missing out as well. But it also has come out that compared to the other disciplines where an athlete if he or she misses out they at least have some kind of voice to shout it out as well but it doesn't come out much for the para-athletes their voice is never heard. And so Deepa Malik's position in that committee was with the premise that the voices of these para-athletes would be heard over there. Now within the scope of her work now you mentioned when you started of saying that she has done a lot for the sport, she has done a lot for the sport as an athlete as an administrator that's questionable. And it's very clear in her role in this committee as well. So that's unfair because being a para-athlete and understanding what it takes to be there be a para-athlete person fighting day to day existential adversities as well as system and sustenance and all the other factors that across disciplines athlete space along with that the additional challenges that these athletes face knowing all that and then being unfair to a bunch of them that's unpardonable. But that's how it is that's how unfortunately the scenario is. So the point here is how do we negate that now that we have more or less established the idea that there are certain flaws in the system. So how do we revamp that? I think like just like every institution or every sport or any endeavour for that matter there is always an evolutionary process that happens to match with the times to change when things are shown that things are not right or things are not working. So that kind of system revamp is new I guess and that's where things are heading to and possibly this year would be considered as a turning point towards I mean as a turning point which triggered that kind of a move towards making things a bit more objective and foolproof. See the thing is like I don't believe that like separating them is like necessarily can only be viewed as a from the lens of like hey it's not nice to separate them this reward as a legacy a new reward may not. Like Jayasar if I am not mistaken again Adventure Sports has its own category of a word correct? National Sports Awards? National Sports Awards and what happens is if you separate something then there is more umbrella maybe is that like something is that because I thought not because of anything else because since it is about Olympic sport and Olympic and Paralympics are played separately they are never played together Asian Games and Paralympic Asian Games is not played together because they are it's not just because if you separate someone from Arjuna Awards doesn't mean it's a negative why should anyone take it as a negative idea? It could be it could be a positive idea also that create a special special Kail Gapna, Arjuna or Dhanchandar, Dronacharya and what all we have for entire things for the Paralympics so there will be again if you are giving it 60 that means you have numbers in mind so the more the merrier it will be I can say in that case so I don't think separating means that you are trying to negate somebody or no negative effect should come in mind on this I think it would be a bad idea because Olympics and Paralympics are not played together they have separated separately isn't it? Benchmark is different so there will be awards also different what is wrong the more people will get it Leslie you are saying I understand the argument that the more the merrier argument but is that what we want as a society or we want inclusion at least to feel that they are also part of a sporting system and they are not treated as some additional entity which requires a special category to be recognized and they also see it's also a very subjective point but they also will leave with the feeling that we are different we are probably not at the same I mean it's clear that feeling would remain and so we as media persons can also think about it when we are covering the award plus the special award which goes at least and will be even marked as a sub-meder when we have worked in newspapers so we have the entire list going on and then what it goes is adrenal list will come and possibly go on an area and delete the rest because there is no space in that column these are all realities it is my tendency to cheapen away nice argument with a slightly silly joke so do you think it will help if they name it the Bheem award but I think they can make a rule that at least one or at least two don't make a rule about Khelba but Arjuna and rest of the award they can make a rule that has to go to para-athletes there is right now there is one so at least two or three must go even Dronacharya must go and Dhanchada also go Khelba shouldn't be allowed to go diluted in any form and also we are talking with the idea that I understand the recognition and what it brings on to for these athletes at all but then any awards across the world for that matter I mean not everybody can get it I mean for instance if you look at if you look in a sporting idea of victory and if you happen to be in the same era as the same ball running 100 meters no matter how good you are you end up getting a silver or a bronze and it's unfortunate because you have a great athlete whom you rub shoulders with the same thing applies to an award in literature maybe man booker who will look at it in a given year if you have five great authors and their work and if one person is picked that doesn't I mean kill the entire purpose of existence of the other four writers right you write for a different reason altogether so that one day you get this award so the same thing at least run the races for whatever the reason is maybe to get a it can be to win an Olympic medal but that isn't remains and award is definitely a boost it's definitely a recognition but that's not the end of it all that's the point when we talk about athletes missing out because only limited numbers are there athletes are missing out in a regular award as well in a regular athletes as well but athletes missing out because there is politics at play athletes missing out because there is subjectivity in the rules or subjectivity in the selection procedure or athletes missing out just because their names were not pushed in these are unpardonable that's where we should be getting at such things are ironed out from the system altogether how do we do that that's a more pertinent question that we should ask ourselves and then at a larger plane we should bring it out so that everybody so actually that's like a great note that's a great note to like sort of conclude this chat on which is I mean also if you are watching this do let us know what you think because essentially at any point of time we are arguing for the award system to be scrapped we are not like criticizing the athletes who are getting them what we are questioning is the system itself for this the selection system, the award system the governance system the application system of these awards which were constituted so far back the world we live in today resembles does not resemble that world at all like for example in front of me I have the first two winners of the Rajiv Gandhi Khel Rathna I just want to leave like everyone with this the first two winners of the Rajiv Gandhi Khel Rathna was in 1991 Vishwanathan Anand for chess and in 1992-93 Geeth Sethi for billiards two men who perhaps won't even be from two sports that are not even considered among the cream of the crop in Indian one section