 first of all good afternoon everyone it's a pleasure to be to be here and hosting this session and thank you every thank you everyone for being here making time and you know hopefully over the next 45 minutes we'll be having an interesting discussion on the sustainability and the future of EV within that right let me maybe just start with setting the context for this discussion we all know climate is climate change is a very real and important imperative and even though the Paris Accord sets the target at 1.5 degrees Celsius we are way away from that and a lot of new innovation and a lot of changes has to happen if we were to meet meet or even better the targets now why is it important you know automotive industry contributes close to around 17% of the total greenhouse emissions on co2 and off which road transportation is almost close to 12% so 12% of co2 emissions is really road transportation across across the world automobile manufacturers have really been at the forefront of a shift towards you know electric vehicles which is lower in terms of emissions and hence they are doing their bit a lot of the OEMs have already announced that they want to move to you know 100% electric vehicles and removing ice by either by 2030 or 2035 or 2040 and many of the governments you know recently as COP 26 about 30 odd governments including the US and the Canada have actually announced that they go to move towards 100% zero emission vehicles by 2040 now that of course presents a huge opportunity for this industry and also certain challenges given that you know it's going to be a fundamental shift which we haven't seen in many decades so with this you know I'll start the discussion with with all of you here which represents you know many of the OEMs in both the two-wheeler and three-wheeler space we have charging infrastructure representation as well as finance so thank you gentlemen let me let me maybe start with getting an OEM perspective first and I know we represent so Amitabh, Ram, Varun and sort of maybe one by one as OEMs you know how are you seeing the evolution of EVs going forward and you know what are some of the things that keeps you interested maybe I'll start with Amitabh. Yeah hi good afternoon everyone thank you so much for the invite so it's clear you know the reasons that you gave are very very clear right we need to do something about road transportation we cannot wait for the incumbents to make change happen it's very clear so if that's going to be the case then startups will have to you know disrupt and the disruption will happen from the fringe so you know I'm a computer science Greek right and I'm making cars or electric vehicles you know it's you just have to get into it I think the future for transportation is all electric there is no doubt about it so the drive trains will be electric the source of that power could be different so we'll be certain that innovation has to happen and we'll have to lead that innovation so yeah I think we're still in the beginning of the curve the adoption is just started and I think what is gonna really make it take off is the is the is the total cost of ownership that is very becoming very visible to users so I mean people are really realizing that hey electric vehicles are much cheaper to own much cheaper to run and much cheaper to maintain over the course of years so and I think once that starts to get hold and that message gets across to people I think it's going to be a very exponential transition to electric electric and and also what what what drives the growth again is the large number of people opting for electric makes the cost you know the scale of economies start coming into picture what we saw in solar panels where it started off at exponential mean that at a very high price unsustainable to really compete with with the conventional sources of energy just drop by a factor in magnitude within years and and now it has become an extremely sustainable option to start power sources although there it has its own challenges but it's again the cost has come down dramatically and I think the same thing will happen with electric vehicles as well where the total cost of ownership will definitely drive the adoption and the exponential you know growth of that maybe sort of hello so I agree with both Amitav and Varun on both the different points that they made incumbents will take their time and I think and that startup has definitely done a phenomenal job I think all the founders out there I think in pushing the industry making customer believe that electric is possible and it can be done today with whatever limitations that we have in the ecosystem the other point total cost of ownership is definitely very important and that's one of the reason why Euler had taken a fundamental bet on the commercial vehicle pollution was one of the reason I think where you started your conversations with but at the end of the day customer believes I mean in the total cost of saving ownership and that is saving the experience that they're getting from the product so there what I feel over the next couple of years you will see more mature better stable better experience will happen in the product I mean some of the early journey had been I would say bit challenging either your financing ecosystem or the service ecosystems were still getting developed the products were still getting matured so next two three years I think this rate of change that is happening will further get amplified and your tipping point might be sooner than what we all are anticipating absolutely from your perspective on this yeah good afternoon everyone the future I see is very bright not too far I'm starting near future is very bright obviously the government policies and the government is pushing to meet its own goals for for a cleaner planet and again TCO is a big driver there's a big pull from the market for the TCO perspective but there are certain few things that kind of probably didn't help the speed of growth safety number one the past six months with the government policies and also new technologies coming in the battery the significant progress has been made in the industry so that actually should give a good comfort for the customers and then the affordability a lot of new battery technology coming in with a charge density with higher charge density like solid states and also having different business models as well to make it more affordable with swap solutions or leasing that will also be a huge catalyst moving forward to to get the get this growth at a rapid pace so I I'm very bullish on this and that's the reason we're all here in this business so definitely there I see a lot of positive things wonderful thank you for sharing that let me move to Amit we all obviously know that charging in infrastructure plays a key role in this whole EV transition you know you've been working on on this space for a long time and of course you know moving towards more technology enabled charging infrastructure how do you see technology playing a role in this whole EV transition on the charging infrastructure thing so first of all good afternoon everyone so see Chetan Jant just mentioned that we don't have those many years now to ramp up to reach to a greener planet and while everything is important technology is going to be the most important in achieving that so right from the battery swapping to EV charging to the technology in the EV standardization is something which is going to be very important and technology plays a very crucial role on that so while the standardization comes the scalability is also I believe and I assume many of you would also that scalability is also going to be driven by technology so this is what technology has to offer and it's not limited to just the software on the embedded the designs of the chargers the vehicles everything the experience and finally like everyone mentioned that the total cost of ownership so technology is going to play there as well absolutely thank you so much Amit my next question to Pankaj look we've all spoken about total cost of ownership which with EVs over a period of five to seven years of usage is definitely lower but we also know that the upfront cost is more as of now both for the vehicles in itself as well as setting up the charging infrastructure so in your opinion you know how can financing be a key enabler to this transition good after everyone thank you thank you for inviting me and it's good to be part here so when we talk about financing I think so the biggest risk to a financial comes in the quality of the product the risk on the product today we are talking about that there is a standardization which is needed in charging or probably product technologies are changing and it is a financial risk for any financiers who is doing risk in this category but today as a ecosystem we are funding everything in terms of ecosystem so probably be it vehicle be it charging infrastructure be it swappable battery so we have a proven track record financing all of them but we look at different use cases and we finance specific use cases in those category so today we probably when we talk about charging infrastructure the biggest client that we have financed to is blue smart he probably have given around close to 150 charges to them because there is a fixed revenue utilization which blue smart can do it probably when we talk about in terms of cars we probably have given it to lithium as well we are giving it to blue smart also today so probably you know there are different asset which can be financed to different people and different segment and I see ev financing is a different it's working fantastically well in the last mile connectivity as of right now and in charging and in particularly in terms of battery swapping where it is a B2B business there is a scope of doing it but very limited people are able to create a charging infra and make it utilized buy in a public mode so there is a revenue assurance goes up and down so that's a place where financial cannot render and that's the normal risk that because of which there are very limited people in the finance domain when it comes to ev financing thank you punkers maybe I'll continue with you for one more question related to that you know we have we are all you know we have eminent set of founders and you know early-stage companies those to call even even on the finance side right and also mentioned that this is the decade or you know ev transition is being led by new age companies I mean if you'll see globally you know Tesla BYD Neo and even in India many many of you are creating that revolution on the financing side of course you know you're also an emerging new company there are so many bands NBFCs who've been financing automotives for donkey's ears what differentiation do you think you can create in the market so we started ev financing in 2016 so we were the early birds who started E-Rickshaw financing we currently hold a portfolio of around 18,000 live customers spread across 12 different states in northern part of the country now what we have really believe in that technology is a play in ev financing today the every asset that we finance is been fitted by an iot device correct this gives the complete information on the utilization of the asset now most of the laws that we do whether it is an E-Rickshaw whether it is an electric auto whether it is a charging station they are income generating or utilization has to be tracked in a very proper and a regular manner correct if the person is generating the income the EMI would come on time now using this iot device and this data we are creating our own artificial intelligence tool which is going to help us classify each and every loan and put it into a red yellow number situation for us where we would be able to take a rather than a post-mortem approach we would be able to take a pre-emptive approach on handling NPS or defaults or DPD is what it is called in NBFC language in a much more effective manner correct so we see that IC engine didn't have this kind of a play but electric vehicles infrastructure everything has a play on this because technology integrates well correct and if we know that this let's say we have financed any vehicle if this vehicle is able to give a 95% uptime a person is able to utilize X number of kilometers on a daily basis he is charging on time a probably he is taking regular offs and probably would be highly likely to pay his EMI right correct so looking at those parameters our AI tool is going to probably put all these numbers together which would help us to grow faster and faster right and of course you know the traditional banks have been a little very of so traditional is always driven from follow-ups as a whole as a NBFC we are a group of NBFC and we hold multiple licenses even the second thought that we are also probably playing on where NBFC have to probably take a leave is collections so we recently got a PPI license in our holding company so we are going to implement a valid based system and we would be one of the financings people who are probably doing all the commercial income and routing loans so in that sense we would love to collect EMI's through valid on the daily basis from our customer right correct and and that's and that's going to be driven by IOT immobilization and a prior information on daily pattern on his driving so I think so that is a some level of innovation that we are trying to do differently from any other NBFC's are probably doing differently in the EV as a sector wonderful thank you Pankaj my next question is more on the technology side so I'll ask let's say Varun and Ram to give their perspectives on that there's so much innovation happening globally on just the battery itself which is the heart of the EV battery as well as the motor there's of course you know the different chemistries plus new innovation happening on the solid state sodium ion and everything what are the two or three things you are more excited and looking forward to from from from let's say the next five years perspective so yeah I think you hit the nail on the head so I think battery chemistry is where a lot of the research is happening and there is a lot of scope for us to reduce the cost and and thereby encourage more adoption I think some of the very challenging I mean very exciting things that are happening around solid state of course that also involves lithium which is again a fairly expensive metal right now but we've also seen we're also seeing sodium and and aluminium and zinc gel come up but most of them are still at a stage where they are good for stationary storage but for automotive great batteries there is still a lot of research that needs to happen and a lot of validation and commercialization that needs to happen but one thing is for sure I think the NMC days are kind of numbered it's it's it's it's going to be interesting to see a ferro phosphate again you know catch the steam and also my manganese ferro phosphate LMFP which is which is really promising some good results and and and some of the lithium ion manufacturers have adopted it and started commercially producing them it will be very interesting to see those things hit the market and start giving results there is definitely hydrogen which is which is I mean I'm fairly you know looking forward to that being a solution for heavy commercial vehicles but then again that's not just a matter of technology but also a large amount of investment that has to go into the infrastructure to support that that is not I mean it's more of a chicken and egg story there than a technical problem to solve but it'll be very interesting to see the new technologies and come and disrupt the existing markets right now thank you you can have a fast charging which also helps the affordability for the customer and especially for people who are financing the weakest link in the EVs the battery pack and the even our customers ask the first question they ask even before they buy our two wheelers is when do I need to change my battery so that that all get eased out with the technology and fast charging so our goal at Greaves is to build a battery pack that can last the life of the vehicle so we don't have to change so that's what we're all striving to so are my colleagues here so I see that playing a major role the second thing is a sodium ion there is also a lot of investments going in sodium ion globally but unfortunately we're not there yet for charge density wise but again there are players who have proved out some some prototypes which has charge density similar to an NMC but a little further away so I see that with the sodium ion obviously it's also a much safer and a rapid charging capabilities available so with these two I see a bright future for for the EV technology wonderful thank you thank you fundamentally this question depends on who you're asking to I think there you'll get different answer if you ask this question to the R&D team and the technology team you'll get all of this answer of LTO to sodium ion, gink air, lithium air all of that like all of that is true some has some safety some has different costs some has charging time all of this like energy density volumetric all possible the other side is your customer right like when you ask them and when you think about the business model then your questions are very different what is available today at scale right what is safer and economically viable what has like after five years I can still predict a secondary value what my finances are willing to underwrite what as an OEM I'm willing to underwrite because commercial vehicle runs for seven ten years so I need to underwrite these risks as a technology and product risk we need to step forward and write that so depending on who you ask also this answer changes like for instance some of the LFP, NCA, NCM those are fairly stable I would say supply chain is fairly stable as well the cost structures though during COVID it has gone up and down I think our financial ecosystem and our manufacturing ecosystem has stabilized a bit so next five years I still see some of this pushing a lot but on the innovation side you will have everything from sodium ion to lithium air to combinations of these also like super capacitor and primary battery pack primary and power cells together so you will have these combinations so answers are also depending on who you ask absolutely I think why don't I just take on the mic so let me no I just wanted to add one more thing so we're all excited about the the new technology and the new chemistry that's going to replace lithium ion there's one more thing I wanted to add where there's a lot of technological advancements are happening on recycling the lithium ion batteries that we already have what that enables us to do is really realize the terminal value of the lithium ion battery right now and kind of discounted for the customers today so I think a lot of the progress is happening there where we can just recycle them and put it back on the road because the metals are same what happens is the internal you know the anode and cathode and electrolyte layer that degrades it can be if it can be recycled effectively and maybe you know maybe made the cost a lot lower we we could potentially look at a fairly cheap battery right now today absolutely have your own so you know maybe because I come from the software domain I always talk about software I think we missed that piece I think everyone focuses on the hardware side if you look at the system wide efficiency of the usage of an electric vehicle you'll realize that driver and driving behavior matters a lot in the overall efficiency matrix and the only way you can override this and make EVs better and successful will be through software I think hardware everyone will have the same batteries everyone will have the same motors I mean at at one point it is going to happen right so so how do you distinguish I mean there's a lot of sensors happening any failure that's happening today is largely because of software did not catch it even if there's a fire I don't blame the cell I don't make the battery I blame the bms software so I think there's a lot that will happen in that space v2v v2i there's so much happening chat gtp it's going to change a lot of things I do I'm very bullish on the software side I do feel that that is going to be the big differentiator in the years coming forward right maybe let me just carry on from there look the field for EVs and for all of you is also not just India right it's global the product that you make here and of course you know Indian companies on the two-wheeler and three-wheeler side of course India is a big market and we export quite a lot not so much on the passenger cars but you know what role can India play in this whole EV revolution in terms of especially the software capabilities which we traditionally have been very good so what role do you think India can play in this and maybe I'll ask the same question after that too yeah I mean you know it's we can play the a very pivotal role in all of this really I mean Chetan was standing here right 1999 we had a production ready full electric vehicle in this country I mean Tesla wasn't even born at that time right it's a different matter what happened the the important thing is innovations are you know we are born entrepreneurs in this country right I will be an entrepreneur right and there are many many people who will be entrepreneurs I think the important thing is that now the ecosystem is also coming to support these entrepreneurs and hence innovation is bound to happen I think we are one country where we've realized I think I don't like the word Jugal at all we've realized that innovation is very important innovation for our geography is very important and we can always extend that to a global solution so when we are doing things whether it's battery motors controllers software side we have a very very good base to start off right and I do believe that you know if we if we really put our heads together I am certain that we can be a very strong hub not just in the manufacturing side so we can be a very very big hub for manufacturing in India you know for EVs and EV components definitely but I think overall in terms of exporting from here I do believe that there's a very good opportunity for us we have a lot of lithium deposits also I would say that see a country like ours who is a software talent pool and a country like ours who is now an oil producing country and country like ours with lot of new Gen Z which are very much environment cautious so all these three factors are really going to make the products especially the software because software doesn't require a lot of logistics we generally hardware has those challenges so I'm very much sure and aligned with what Amitabh said that we will see lot of Indian software EV products going global thanks to all the talent what we have and the motivation the economical and the environmental motivation what we have thank you sort of and and let's say Amitabh if you see in most countries the EV transition especially early on has has really been accelerated through government policies I mean you you check whatever the Europe especially Scandinavian countries and even India is doing its bit through fame subsidies PLIs and all that with the three wheeler penetration at what it is which is far higher than let's say all the other forms what are some of the things that you feel the government should continue to do going forward or what are your expectations let's say from the government maybe sort of if you can answer that and Amitabh. Okay just on the previous one very bullish on the India and on the EV segment primarily one of the reason why I moved from US came back to India building it here so we believe definitely that India will at least build couple of companies in this emerging EV sector that will go out and rule globally as well. On your question on this EV and government see they give fundamentally what I believe is that last at least five to six years there has been a consistency in the direction that electric vehicles are the future and they have been trying to do different policies that whether it's fame whether it's GST reduction on all of these both and we have seen that at multiple state level also in general theme is in the right direction and that has resulted also if you see the penetration is looking at just the three wheeler cargo which is where we have one of our products. Last year it was around like March 5% of the electric cargo that we're selling in India with three wheeler now roughly around 20% of what gets sold is three wheeler just the cargo Delhi we see roughly 50% of what you're selling now in cargo is electric in Bangalore I think it's more than 30% that is some of the number that I love. So fundamentally it's the economics why and one of the reason why Euler decided to take a bet on the commercial vehicle segment and we wanted to say yeah we want to build like something around like Tesla kind of experience for the global world in the commercial vehicle segment and why we should take a bet was fundamentally in the commercial vehicle segment India one road condition payload all of these are very unique it's not the same so you have to build something here to take that the second thing commercial vehicles are utilized a lot hence your saving gets multiplied much faster so anything that you're paying in upfront cost for the similar performing vehicle you end up receiving that sooner so you start making more money within let's just say two years if your subsidies are not there within one year if subsidy is there so I think if subsidies or some of that goes away it will it gets your total cost of ownership sits further but it doesn't die out and that is your fundamental reason so our major I would say what what we had said to government as well in different forums is that if they can continue this fame maybe in whatever shape and size it doesn't have to be like at the same you can always wish for key give us more money and more money but India has plenty of needs right like and they have to allocate money to all the segments so what we believe is even tapering is okay but continue this forward till some of these ecosystem and everything grows second I think what they have done really good is on the making sure the localization bit is not I mean taken advantage I mean there's a solid sort of check on that because that benefits like company like us who are like pushing a lot right on the innovation side trying to build innovation that works for India works for the global scale whether it's in the battery whether it's in the electronics and also solving for that backward manufacturing right like so building at scale so that you can supply to these demand at scale and also build quality product not just anything that works you built out of labs so yeah mainly if they can continue and directionally be there for the next one and a half year even more I think it should be fine your thoughts on this yeah so completely agree with sort of I think it's important for the government to continue because the reason this policy came around was because battery prices were very high to bring parity so until either PLI scheme oriented batteries were to show up in the market I'm fine you know then they're manufactured in India and at a price point that India can afford if it's not happening and lithium prices continue to soar I think it's important for the government to consider it they still have a lot of reserves on the money side I don't think that is a challenge I think perhaps they should also push the commercial banks or to start nothing against NBRC but I think commercial banks need to step in it's important I think from a financing of commercial vehicles it's very very important because that brings the interest rate down it makes it better for them I think the third thing is to some extent you know transportation is a state subject so policy co-evaluate implementation right so I think it's very important for the states also to step forward and it's not just in the form of a stated policy but also something that makes a difference on the ground and they should make a cognitive effort in in making sure that really you know change is happening otherwise it's a 20-page document and it's just floating around thank you so much both of you I think we talked about India's role globally in this entire play and I think in order to do that retailing and nurturing talent is a key enabler of course what Germany has been able to do with you know all their German brands in terms of more the hardware talent and let's say Silicon Valley from a software perspective maybe if I was to ask Amit you from a what can India do or what do India need to do in terms of just retaining the software talent and of course you know Varun and Ram from a hardware and hardware talent perspective because if we were to be successful we really need to ensure that you know our talent stays and of course a lot of the talent which in the global market China US and all is there can actually come back because a lot of them are also Indian origin so I'll see a couple of factors play a role here so first thing is that having the talent associated with a cause like environment and keeping them involved in the actual implementation of that second thing is the glamour associated to a particular career so the more we talk about TV and the more we talk about TV at every stage right from the schooling to engineering and promoting people to take careers not just in software but designing the right batteries materials everything there and then it comes to the potential like how everyone has been talking about the potential which the Indian EV talent is going to have for the global market so if we can help the new not only just entrepreneurs but all the contributors to this tech and the ecosystem to understand that what we all are going to do together so all this is really going to make the more talent to come to this industry something that you know contributed to an enormous is for us to attract talent on bound share the the dockless business was the challenge and the opportunity that that it presented when we were solving for dockless the problem was enormous I mean we were putting unsupervised assets on the road where you could just pick it up anywhere and drop it off anywhere and and this was a challenge that you know the global companies were struggling to solve for and there was no you know there was no solved you know solution that was available from either the west or the east so that was what really attracted the talent to the company and you know everybody was motivated to you know figure out various aspects of this problem break it down solve it see it work and then you know really get that satisfaction from watching it grow so I think that's very similar to what we are seeing today in attracting talent as well the challenge out there is that you know hey the environment is really it's not doing well so I think the 1.5 degrees is something that we've just blown right through and the challenge is very real and the opportunities is pretty huge when we're solving it so this is something that is really you know exciting people of great caliber to work on something and then of course these are wonderful companies where you can make a difference and see that happen on the daily life Ram you you've actually transitioned from from from us to here I mean what prompted you and what do you think can be the enablers to get a lot of the talent which is sitting out there back here one of the the best thing that we found working for us is we are partnering with a lot of the universities we actually partner with them at the second year of their career students where we start giving out projects we work collaboratively and so scout we do scout talent across the globe we do have expats joining us we have on the software side but to make it more sustainable the talent has to be bred in in this country so and it has to start very early so we we partner and we do that apart from that we also look at other industries mobile industry for any kind of connectivity user experience there are a lot of talent in this country there and also the appliance industry which has been using the motors and controllers for a very long time so there are people out there we just have to think a little bit outside the box and and but we are very passionate about becoming the breeding ground of talent in this country so we do work with the universities wonderful my last question to Pankaj as a financier you know when you look at the sustainability topic EV is only one of the things right I mean what are the other technologies that you feel from a financing point of view you are really looking forward to and will be interested going forward so as a muffin green name suggests what we are going to finance is only green currently are out of 250 crore portfolio all is 100% EV so we do not do anything other than EV as of right now but yes we have intend to probably grow in the greener and the cleaner space itself so it could be around funding projects which are in hydrogen funding projects which are a solar laid charging stations looking at different models and different synergies which are clean and green and income generating opportunities thank you so that's those are the questions from me I wanted to open up for the audience to see if we have any questions kindly if you can just pass around the mic someone if I can request just can you please share your name and your question and who is it addressed to hello so my name is Krishna and then this is an open question anybody can address so apparently there are a good number of articles and documentaries in recent days that says that EV is not so green and clean as we expect like obviously the extraction of lithium from its ore cobalt cleaning the I mean the process of cleaning it making it into batteries and then post production right there are even reports saying that when you compare like right in in case of India 60 percentage of electricity comes from thermal power plant right so there was a report that I was looking at recently which says the carbon footprint when you compare to a IC engine and an EV is less than 20% so which totally voids the fact that EV is green and clean how do you guys see it is it really clean or who wants to answer that so I think so yes it's a chicken and egg story that you know probably you know we are moving to EV at least vehicle emission is tailpipe zero so that emission is at least something that we are able to control at one level it's a it's a bigger problem to solve for so probably you know we are at least solving at the vehicle level now there could be certain initiative which could be taken out that you know out of the 70% which is electricity which is generated from the coal it can slowly gradually move to renewable sources of energy and moment it would start happening the impact would be larger and significant in number maybe to also share his perspective sure so your question is valid I think because this is a new domain a new technology everyone is looking at it under the microscope it's not that any other industry is very clean I mean our shoes that we are wearing are made in sweatshops you know steel is not I mean let's not even get there right it's just that if five to six lakh people are dying in our country alone every year because of road transport pollution what's first we have to fix that problem five to six lakh a year realize one like people died in covid there was a national lockdown five to six like every year so we have to fix the problem I understand that there will be these kinds of things and they will get fixed they will also get fixed over a period of time but in the beginning I think you're absolutely right there is no clean solution for it India has gradually created more green electricity now we are at 42% by the way 42% of India's electricity is green we'll get there I think it will be a transition but we will get there yeah any next question hello so while the mainstream mainstream adoption is while away the tech stack is still evolving right whether it is on the battery side you guys talked about how different new technologies are coming whether it is on the charging protocol side or in the EV side how much of a risk you see in terms of sunk costs or fixed investments that early stage companies are making and then the technology becomes obsolete few years down the line even before mainstream adoption arrives and nobody has yet made money on the previous tech stack you know once again I think over there it's not that the current tech stacks are any bad it's only going to get better it's like an evolution in any other industry so even if you have invested in that tech stack and that tech stack is going to deliver according to the warranties and on the basis of those warranties everyone is making money in the process now it's a different thing if the OEM is not able to support the warranty for whatever reason whatever part it might be if that is not the case right if that is not the case then in the ecosystem considering the TCO benefits I think if you look at it whichever way you are going to make money you can make a lot more money if the life of the vehicle is much longer right technology will always evolve there's a reason why every year even in ice there is a new vehicle that is every time you know there's some innovation that's going on so innovation will happen innovation will continue it's only going to make the equation tilt more in the favour of you know better financial management I would say also some of the materials may not really you know invalidate the infrastructure investment that we already made for example if there is a little bit of change in the in the cathode or the electrolyte material it doesn't necessarily invalidate the entire assembly line that you put together to you know put the cells together so yeah I mean like it is still years away before something disruptive comes along and just like pretty much rules everything out but but yeah there is still a lot of investment being made which have already started to realize today and and that that you don't have to wait for or hold the breath for the next technology to come into to pay for it question just follow up from a financing perspective how much of a churn you expect in your portfolio companies because of companies making fixed investments and that not realizing the ROI not realizing so we do not finance companies we finance sx which are used for income generation or any form correct so today we would not finance a company which is manufacturing any product we are going to finance the final product and which is utilized and we would test out a cycle take assurance that you know probably that is something is capable of generating the revenue for that end customer who is buying it that is what we look at when we are financing EVs let me just add one point to what you mean see the technology evolution is happening it's a happening across right we are building product charging ecosystem is somebody setting up these charging station there are certain standard and everything is evolving right similar to your phone also or laptop you had a single that pin kind of a connector then micro usb then you had usb bc and all of that and that evolution is also happening and you had inter portability connectors in between on oem side as well like when you think it is not going to be very different maybe you won't have too many connectors but in last five years i have seen dc 001 i had seen ac 001 there is ccs there is chat of jamedo chidimo that gone right now there so these will continue to happen what oiler stands has been so far is that we need to isolate connectors on one side i mean very very particular to your use case that you were talking about charging station isolate connectors and your other battery and remaining part of the vehicle make it interoperable so that tomorrow if let's just say when we launched product in october of 21 we said oiler has a network of charging stations you can use it at our charging station six months down the line lot of us couple of institutional customer came they said yeah we also have our own network of charging station we want to utilize those we put in software update that vehicle they could connect to their charging station as well now when we are designing the next product we are also bringing them into the part of the process you also tell me where you are thinking of going so that when i'm designing i can also be conscious of which one to put so this curve will evolve i think and it will be a sort of a collaborative approach where we all have to figure that out can i just request in the interest of time probably take the last question this question is largely to pankaj but to everyone as well carbon credits we're talking about sustainability is carbon credits playing a role in the way EV financing and the cost of operating it is coming through and how are you looking at from a finance perspective interesting question so we are focusing on probably i think so we would be India's first nbfc to trade carbon credits in in next three months that's what our first aim is we have initiated our law process and probably we are doing it this carbon credit how once we have a validation of proof of selling or trading in carbon credit as an nbfc for the first time now that is something that we are looking at leveraging carbon credit to raise fund for EVs today the cost of fund which is available for EV financing is much higher today when we talk about to lot of traditional banks they would say that they do not have a EV financing policy so we have a hundred percent EV portfolio so they say that we cannot finance you so today we have to raise funds from various impact based institution or institutions which are funding climate-led funding so that is what we are currently doing but for us to really optimize the cost of fund is that you know how we can use and pass on the carbon credit benefit to our LPIs is the next level of thing that we want to intend to and bring down the cost of fund because today there are policies which are available for manufacturing or penetration of EV but there are no policy available for EV financing in the country correct so if that those are added in terms of you know everybody in the EV financing domain was demanding a priority sector lending correct but it didn't happen so I think so maybe next year but the whole play is that you know the cost of fund until and unless it goes down the penetration and the ripple effect to end customer will not happen so soon. Thank you Pankaj and thank you everyone for patiently listening let me maybe just end by saying you know the transportation industry you know over the many many decades has obviously undergone many innovations but I would see I would say you know the kind of disruption we are seeing now has not been seen over the last maybe four or five decades I mean it's just a fundamental transition in the way we are looking at automotive industry and this is obviously given a lot of the new age companies also an opportunity to play in this space and disrupt it and I would like to thank all of you and maybe I request a big round of applause to all our panelists because these are the guys who are changing and leading this revolution thank you very much