 Welcome everybody back to Segal Talks here at the Martin E. Segal Theatre Center, the greatest center CUNY in Midtown Manhattan at the City University and it's kind of a little great day in New York. It's one or two Celsius. I always forget how old it is in the Fahrenheit of the 40s and yeah, reality has set in that the winter is coming and New York doesn't look so great. We go around, the restaurants are empty, people are desperate, stores are still closing, there are announcements from the Mayor de Blasio that there might be a shutdown in Lumen in the next couple of days which of course would again be devastating and still no theater or no nothing up on the horizon for the next year most probably and even the Met Opera can't pay their union workers. So we are in very deep trouble but sometimes as Japanese haikus say when the house roof is broken you can see the moon through in the night and so this is what we talk about the moon itself which is the theater and the hands that points towards it. These are artists, these are people who work in the field of theater and the ones who really help us pointing to it, to the words, the literature, the ideas of it are dramaturgs which has now become a much more enlarged definition but it's like in the Torah that people are pointing with the golden hands on the scripture, they don't fully touch them but they are the ones who interpret them, help them connect as create meaning and so we have always said artists are very close to the times we live in, they have the ability to be in the moment or to anticipate the future and this is why it is so important to listen to them and in this kind of enlarged understanding of the theater artists and in our view producers, curators and dramaturgs are theater artists who help us to collage, to put things together, to create meaning for a moment in time like the Robert Rauschenbergs did in the 20th century that great invention of collaging things, creating meaning that you can look at many sides. Dramaturgie is a staple in the European theater, the great directors will not start working if they don't have one to sometimes as Peter Stein insisted three of the top dramaturgs, sometimes in America you hear from people who are in theater as well as my director is so stupid and he can't interpret a play that I wouldn't hire the director, it just shows you the big differences and we at the Siegel Center of course and at the university are on the side of transferring knowledge, of performing knowledge and dramaturgs are essential guides into the underworld that the theater takes us by the hand, they're like in the Dantes great great tales you know when poets take us to explain what life is all about and today we have two representatives, two great ones, people who represent the fields but also just themselves who have defined also what Dramaturgie means what it is all about in the US and they also have really worked for the field and for the advancement of the field so with us I first of all welcome Ken and Martin, thank you for coming, taking the time and Martin Greg Green Rogers is the associate professor at SUNY in New Paul so in the way we are connected with SUNY and SUNY you know it's state and city university and she is also a past president of LMDA the great literary managers and the dramaturgs of America Association which really has done so much for the field we had and Katanya with us before and others so this is close to our heart she is a dramaturg who has worked at the Louisville Orchestra she has worked with the Salt Lake Acting Company the Pioneer Theatre Company at the Goodman the Great Goodman Theatre and though many many many works at these what one would say almost legendary Oregon Shakespeare Festival Ken SUNY is a veteran dramaturg writer and a creative consultant and actually also a community organizer he worked with shows that ended up and were on Broadway like Great Hades Town and Peter the Starcatcher and he worked for 16 years at Disney's 3th Theatre Kill where he worked on over 70 productions that were connected to Broadway you can look up the number but it's a big big big productions under the hunchback of Notre Dame a little more male to Tarzan and so many many others and he also was a president of LMDA and he holds a PhD in theater history and criticism from the University in Washington so both of you welcome and to Segal talks and where are you guys Martin maybe you start sure I am coming to everyone from the land of the Lenape people and which has the colonized name of West Hurley New York so New York City me no I'm actually yeah I'm about I'm about to if you left my house right now and drove to Port Authority it would take two hours two hours okay okay and Ken where are you now at the moment also in the sprawling lands of the Lenape people but in Harlem New York and right on a fantastic line of ambulances going to to the hospital so I may have to mute if a sirens coming by I mean as people are attended to yeah we have done that since March and we have heard the sirens in March April May and June and slowly going down this talks the sounds of the sirens and they are back on the street so it's a devastating moment for the world and for all of us and so really thank you for taking the time to think about theater which is not easy to do and yes and the question is are the airwaves also are the Lenape and the ground so in a way we are also communicating you know in these in the ether of of that you know so spirited land what America is all about so both of you what's there's no theater there are no performances and and then dramaturgy which is in a way the poet almost as my Norm Frisch who helped us to connect me to you guys who said you know drama talks in the way of the poets of theater they are so important but it's a tough field to be in in America are you guys working at the moment yeah yeah actually you know with that with the production shutdown I feel like almost everyone has entered a dramaturgical mindset right without the sort of busyness of like going to production doing something but actually well what are we doing and planning for it I found that I left Disney theatrical a year ago so I was already entering into a period of sort of sabbatical and and rethinking and then the world did with the pandemic so it's been a really interesting time for for dramaturgy and to sort of rethink it and a lot of people are spending more time writing planning production so in fact church's in general are quite busy on a lot of projects even though you know many of us who work in institutional gigs were furloughed and so you know paying the bills is a little bit of a challenge but but the work is there and the art is there and still happening as we prepare to come back and be in rooms together can you talk about some projects you have now can I I was gonna add to you go I was add a little bit to what can we're saying I think also one of the things that's happening that I'm so excited that dramaturgs are being asked asked to participate in and is that as theaters really rethinking what it is and who it is in light of the rona in light of what is happening in terms of the civic engagement that has happened sort of nationally as a result of cases such as George Floyd and Breonna Taylor dramaturgs are really being asked to help reimagine what theater will look like when it does come back especially in terms of social justice and cultural competency and I'm really excited that I've been part of some of those conversations and I'm really hopeful that the theater community will continue to tap dramaturgs to really rethink what that looks like and on that note I'm a pastor to Ken so Ken can talk about what he's been up to and then I will follow up with the shenanigans in the life of Martin. One other great thing since Martin and I are both as past president still quite connected to the workings of LMDA and one of the things I'm proud as to work on is this dramaturging the Phoenix project that we started which is asking dramaturgs to think about what theater will look like through a dramaturgical lens when we come back and start making it again in the way that we're used to in terms of live performance and that's generated several dozen essays we asked people first to engage in sort of this essay form and short essays you know one or two pages just to throw some ideas out so we started that essay call in April and then shortly thereafter we started a weekly forum chats you know like you've been doing Frank and just talking about you know topic-based dramaturgical projects so that's been really fun and we've been able to gather in a consistent way and talk about what what does it look like you know what are the things that we've been doing in in our systems that we're longing to come back to and what are those systems that have actually just not worked you know and I think as Martin was saying with Black Lives Matter movements and we see you at American Theater and really just looking at you know we we pat ourselves on the back a lot of times in the theater community for being progressive for being liberal for being inclusive but we fail just as much as other human institutions do so to really be able to look at that and to say like what can drama terms do in our particular way and contributing to the making of theater and related arts how can we expand the conversations about context and meaning so so that's one of the things I've been doing which is really just sort of community dramaturgical work how do we function and some advocacy work within that I've been working on and then I've been able to you know one of the things I wanted to do when I left an institutional job is to also work on some writing projects so I've been you know working on some new projects some musicals as a as a one of the writers and then also then dramaturging some other projects but thinking about new ways to do it like one project I'm working on is working with a group of teens and developing artists which is a New York City based program and and creating a writer's room with them for a project which would have a wide audience much larger than they normally have and then how does that work so trying to figure out like how to find new ways of dramaturging that I haven't done before that that's sort of like we're in this innovative space now where we're like nothing's happening so let's just make new things and that's been exciting and to follow up with that I think along with the initiatives that we've been doing that Ken just eloquently talked about in terms of LMDA for me and I'm going to own all of the the privilege and blessings that the statement that I'm about to make comes with but I am actually busier than I've been prior to that which is saying a lot because I was busy before Rona happened so at this point I distinctly have the advantage of being both an educational and institutional and a freelance dramaturge so in the age of the Rona I end up being onboarded with by the playwright center in Minneapolis and so I'm doing some amazing work with their Jerome and many voices fellows right now and essentially I function as their personal dramaturge which has been so great in terms of thinking about development and fostering new voices of marginalized voices in the theater and I also have been working like right now I am I just finished up some work with the at with roundhouse and the McCarter they're doing they're doing the Adrienne Kennedy festival which I would suggest anyone check out if you have just because how often do you could see Adrienne Kennedy's work let's just be honest about this so one of the things that I've also found in terms of like if there is joy to be found at all and what it is that our entire field is going through right now and just us as a society and a community and as a nation we have started to figure out ways of providing access to to theater and sort of theatrical productions even if they are not theater in the way that we're used to in a way that really makes me happy and and so working on that project and then and I'm also working on a digital project that is being shot in a theater. Marin is doing a co-pro with a roundhouse theater on Lauren Gunderson's new piece the Catastrophes I've been working with all of with that amazing creative team on that and so it's been really interesting for me watching especially in the realms of digiturgy and digital storytelling all of the ways that dramaturgy is being tapped to be used and the way that artists are really trying to figure out how to continue to storytell even if we can't all share space together all the time or if we can it's in very limited quantities with lots of COVID testing happening in the in between so it's been it's been a really interesting time it's a that's stunning that's a different from all the talks we we had that both of you in a way say in a way there's more to do but tell us a bit about the conversations you both say you say we are working with responding to the field and yes also theater got a bit caught up and the and the Black Lives Matter moment we said yes we didn't do enough but also with the digit dramaturgy as you say or with dramaturgy and all what what conversations are you having with theaters what are theaters asking of you and what are you guys asking of theaters for example yesterday's topic on dramaturgy in the phoenix was no more christmas carol and so we were actually just talking about and we've had previous conversations about do we you know what would happen if we all took a year off from Shakespeare right like what what voices are not not being allowed access to the light to the stage that we could if some of the the go-tos that we rely on because they're familiar it's not not not any value judgment about the quality but it's just like you know what where do we go for comfort in the familiar and and also you know the very real consideration of like what will sell tickets you know what what's what's the easiest thing we've got to pay our bills kind of thing but then when does that lend itself to some some cynicism or laziness you know where do we have to put ourselves out there and one of the things that dramaturgs do as you know is replace and get to know writers and be in a position of being advocates for for for new writers for new ways of thinking and so we were talking about like is there something that we can do in our field with this conversation in order to say like have a guide for like new ways of looking at your December programming theaters right and then like have a list like the Kill Roy's do like new plays coming up like a list of like other things to consider for holiday programming that are maybe more inclusive or on a rotating basis or like a flow chart like things to consider and recognizing it these are money things to consider these are thematic things to consider these are audience things to consider but essentially you know creating a handbook for for our colleagues and theater makers and producers and decision makers to be like hey we can help out maybe let's start to have some new conversations if these are not already happening here's some here's a guide to start that and we can update over time so that's just an example of the kind of brainstorming we're doing so that when we do come back we've got more tools we're having other conversations we're opening up new doors and you know let's build back better idea what does that actually look like in in the theater right and to add to that I think for me specifically what I've seen happen at least the way that people are approaching me is one as a resource in terms of you know one of the things that I've always done and this is just who I am as a human being I've always been the person that has been interested in talking about the sort of intersections of or not even the intersections who are the voices that always get lost in these conversations for example when people are talking about Shakespeare I'm talking about August Wilson when people are talking about Chekhov I'm talking about Len Nottage when people are talking about the new exciting voices I'm talking about Charlie Evansson I'm talking about Frankie Gonzalez I'm talking about Emma Stanton so I'm talking about just voices that have yet to be heard and so one of the things that's been really fun for me is now that people know that I read just a ridiculous number of plays over the course of a year when they are thinking about programming their seasons whether it's internally at SUNY New Paltz whether it's you know outside and of here and just talking to theaters about work that I'd like to work on as a dramaturg or as a director or just even writing things people are asking Martin what are the things that you're reading and the thing that's amazing about it is that I have such a vast list my running joke is I have a binder full of playwrights but I can share to say that there are so many amazing stories out there that are not being told and I could just go on and on and gush about all of them and try to help be that advocate that Ken was just talking about in terms of making sure that these voices are heard while we're in this moment of pause but then also this moment of coming out on the other side of the pause and really just starting to plan for what is next so it's been amazing having that opportunity to be in those conversations and it's a critical moment too that because we are in this moment of pause it's recognizing this is our shot right like it's now because part of the challenge has been in some of the dramaturgical conversations we'd love to have with our colleagues it's just finding the time in the space to do it because you know theater makers are always like scrambling to survive to put the thing up and as soon as it's up or you know putting the next thing up which is great right but because we have this pause and there's so many challenges associated with what are the opportunities and this is one of them like this is the window to get in there and open up new conversations while people are planning to come back that there's been this sort of unprecedented availability of people to zoom to have connections that they wouldn't normally have to open up minds and consider new things that we just haven't had before because theater people are some of the busiest people in the world and then everything went poof so what what what is that opportunity and and we've done it in in our organization too just to really foster these conversations because again like people are busy and this is time where we've carved out some regular time to have these conversations so when we do get busy again which will hopefully happen we'll do it we'll get busy in a different way you know and and hopefully be more open and use each other as resources and that way i think that we haven't been able to do before it's been it's been really inspiring agreed so um do you guys think this is a time of change will theater be different how post pandemic theater if we can call it is it going to be different i i think so right uh also because you know i'm that guy who's like well we'll make it different right and so it which is can be naive um but but i do feel like this is the time to to try to to step in to have conversations to say wait a minute uh and i also feel you know with the with the conversion uh of the political the economic the social the the medical um i i feel like we're getting braver you know we're getting uh more empowered to say stop to say wait a minute to say that's not fair to let's do this again um so i think i think we will come back and we're humans and we will make many of the same mistakes but i think some things will be better and those things that are better it's because we're changing the systems changing the institutions changing the rules now so the same human beings are roughly going to come back and hopefully with open doors so new human beings can come in there but we'll still be flawed can our systems be a little less flawed when we come back and that's the work that we need to do now right i have to admit that so i'm just going to own back to things that martin owns before she says things i am a realist uh that you know has a tendency to try and be optimist about things but i'm also a realist so uh the the the optimist in me wants to say that things will be different the realist in me is concerned that uh with the there needs to come a change in the way that we talk about what is happening right now in order for a real change to happen and what i mean by that is people keep talking about going back returning back when back was flawed it was not what was happening before tended to uh what was wrong what was wrong well i mean it tended to centralize our center whiteness it tended to marginalize and push to the side you know if you had an opinion that was outside of what was always normally done you were seen as difficult you were seen as like trying to like cause problems when really one was just fighting for what was right and what was just in a system that was flawed and so i am worried that um people in in such a zeal to sort of pick back up and do what we've what we were doing pre rona um like that zeal that that that interest will then sort of re institute policies that should have been examined or re looked at or even if the work was being done to look at them the the desire to let's just be honest feed into the capitalist system that unfortunately theater does tend to feed into was just gonna uh make people go back to what they were doing anyway that the desire is going to be to produce the things that are outside of the public domain and easily accessed because people are not going to have enough money to purchase purchase rights or whatever the the excuse will be in order to to go back to whatever was happening before but i say all that mostly because i feel like if i keep putting that out into the universe when things do pick back up someone who is in a position of power will remember this moment in me railing against the fact that going back to what we were doing before was a problem and what we should do like the drama like the namesake of dramaturgy in the phoenix is about being reborn anew what have we learned from this moment and can we take that information and move forward and in the way that ken said we'll make we'll all make mistakes going forward but at least we're looking forward as opposed to looking back to uh to reshape rethink how we are going about doing this doing the art so you know i have to i have to i sit somewhere in between optimism and realism of like i'm going to hope that we do something different and also recognize that there will be some places that will go back to the problematic things that they were doing before if someone is listening now one of the people which i guess it is actually people do listen to our talks someone listens who is in a position of power what would you say to them and you can really be open i mean to be honest what i would say yes really really like to start listening more like because i mean i think that's really the problem people in positions of power aren't always listening or when they are listening what they do is they listen so that they can say that they listen and then they do whatever they want to do anyway and i think it's really about that time where people started listening actually making decisions on how to move forward according to what it is that they are hearing because back to there's nothing more frustrating especially as an artist of color and as a black person to have someone ask me my opinion and then do whatever it is that they were going to do anyway which is the complete opposite what it was that i said they should do and not to say that my voice is the only voice they need to be listening to but if they're not listening to a wide variety of people and making decisions according to that all of the information that they are gathering they're already starting off on the wrong foot so i really just recommend people really start to think about the action think about what um yeah and really just really just listen just listen to what the people in front of you are trying to tell you i'm going to stop talking now because i'm taking up a lot of space but i think you're uh you hit the nail on the head and why why we feel in the field that this is a moment to step forward to not only advocate for for dramaturgy but to share it more openly uh as as a process is a way of doing work that collects you know people who have a vocation for this kind of thing and what is a vocation it's you know it's curiosity it's deep listening and it's a process orientation which is what we need now societal global level is not just you know a kind of transactional participation like i'm on listen for a second so i said i could listen and then i'm going to say what i want to say but to really like i'm going to listen and i don't know how i'm going to come out the other end right that sense of like openness and curiosity and also you know the the dramaturgy is there as an artist at the table but often at the service of uh an author's voice a director's vision uh an institution's mission and really questioning all of those things with the goal to make them all better but it's the long it's the long view there um and to you know listen more deeply to come up with a bunch of suggestions not necessarily just one but but a sense of like well the process could shift this way something can happen on a given day and to be there and be like all right well what about this um as a way to kind of get get back on track um and and really just to to share to share this skill set this orientation um with with more of our peers and you know this interesting thing about the dramaturge often works um uh does a lot of straddling right like those of us who've had institutional positions we work for the producer but we also work with and for the artists other artists at the table and we do this sort of translating work of communicating you know to the marketing department they're like now what's going on in the play and to be able to like know what's going on into play translate it into marketing terms or to go you know translate into legal terms or um you know um programming terms but but to to really think through those um those challenges so it's not just you know the art versus the commerce but how do those interact how do we widen the audience sell enough tickets to a certain thing to fund it to pay for the next thing like we are working in a capitalist system like can we have conversation about that what is the function um of what we're doing here can we make room for more people and still work on the sort of market-based economy um when can create we create other spaces that are funded in different ways so we can try new things that are insulated a little bit from from the day to the day ticket sales uh concerns like we train them that these are the conversations that we have and and I feel like we we can help guide the conversations as as we come out of it and we've got skill sets that we're we want to share um and you know we don't necessarily know the answers but since we're processing answer like we can say that's a good process for sort of getting to them um when we're ready so is rising phoenix an initiative they started in corona time tell us absolutely absolutely what are the voices what are the most the the things what people what people say what they write give us a bit an idea and also tell us where we can find it uh sure you can uh you can go to the lmda website or just search dramaturging the phoenix and it will take you there um so members of our organization have access to all the essays but we we feature some outside the paywalls to get a taste um uh of what that is so some of it's an internal conversation and we're you know as like draft one to have some like some protect some protection right it should be should be open yeah yeah yeah no absolutely uh and there are some outlets where we're opening it some more we're trying to figure out ways to do that well uh you ask like where it came from and it came from it came in march when theaters were shutting down as people were getting furloughed and you know everyone was worried those of us who are old enough to live through the last recession and get furloughed and worried about like it was that kind of fear again and so we came out with the dramaturging the phoenix challenge to get dramaturgs to like stay engaged like what would you do this is the time now to to share your voice and and there weren't other parameters other than like what will theater look like when we come back what should it look like and that was the only prompt so some people share like how i'm feeling today other people talked about uh parenting and dramaturgy doing work that you know so we have those conversations we talked about who's at the table should we get rid of the table um what are the structures that we have in place that are or aren't working um you know long conversations about season planning or you know what gets programmed what voices do we need to to hear how can we do that so really every single essay is uh is quite different and we and the one thing we did right away is date them because so many things in the time of corona were changing from from moment to moment day to day month to month what was going to happen next um you know for those of us in the united states also dealing with you know a huge election year that was very volatile and polarizing um so all of these things were operating at once social unrest political unrest but the most exciting thing i think so so so the essay some people co-wrote them um so people wrote them alone but then we put them in conversation with one another in these forums to try to get to to something next and one of the things we did is is build a series within the series um which is um BIPOC dramaturgs and allyship with with movements and so Lindy Rosario um who's the LMDA vice president for regional activity she's she's curating those conversations and they happen every third time so so we are talking a lot about you know what does it mean to be a BIPOC identified dramaturg what does it mean to be an ally how do we make more opportunities where have we failed in the past how do we come out of that and do better so but but we've had conversations about all sorts of things and i shared with you like no more shakespeare no more christmas carol of you know taking a specific topic and and trying to expand on that um through essay writing and through these conversations like the ones you've been hosting that more always dramaturgically oriented martin i don't think to add to that one for those of you who are listening or encounter this later just know that that yes some of our stuff does hide behind a paywall but we do not turn away membership to people who uh who cannot afford to join so please do not be afraid if you're interested in learning more about what LMDA is how we function all that fun stuff and just getting more access to more of those essays to please reach out to us through the contact form that you'll find um or the contact email address you'll find on the website we will we will work with you so just know that secondly i also want to give a quick shout out to our sibling organization um dramaturg's network in the uk because they have a very sort of similar uh similar not similar project running they have they had a blog running during the height of the summer about what does it like to be a dramaturg in the uk in the time of the rona and so i would like to just point people towards that too because it's really interesting to think about globally how this pandemic has really affected the entire field both within this country but then also outside of this country um and sort of decentering the us is the only place where we can think about dramaturg's so uh yeah and and they're wrestling with a lot of very similar questions so just wanted to put that out no i think yeah it is it is this is the good news i think that people are talking to each other people are listening to each other nationally on the local level cities but also internationally and um and that that field we we care so much about and just to know how what was your personal journey how did you become a dramaturg how did you approach the field because i'm sure people are listening say how do i become one but how did you well what was your journey oh that's so funny do you want to start this one ken no you go martin we actually we have it we have a crossing point in our right training exactly in our journeys so i in undergrad was a theater and history double major for a while i'm not gonna lie in the end i end up graduating with history as a minor but that's a whole long story that we're not gonna get into but that was my background at Virginia Wesleyan then college now university and to be honest i am in a good way the the uh the manifestation of what happens when deep listening happens on on an educational level because my amazing mentor advisor during that time dr siley shed who is still there uh at Virginia Wesleyan university she listened to how i was talking about theater really saw the potential in me to be a dramaturg so one day she really did that i'ma pull you aside and she sort of gave me the the longer version of yes i enjoy you as a performer but have you heard about this particular field and so she started to explain to me what dramaturgy is and what it does and i was like really that's the thing i can do that sign me up and so that basically became my baseline the running joke amongst all of my friends and this is where ken and i's has intersected after i graduated from there i went on to get my master's degree at catholic university which is also where ken got his master's and uh the the running joke amongst my friends is that i was going to be a professor by day dramaturg by night and that is the same slogan that everyone brings up when everything's happened in my career for example the moment that i got tenure a lot of the people in my facebook people were like professor by day dramaturg by night but i mean that's basically how i ended up as a dramaturg just someone really deeply listening to who i was how i was encountering plays how i was thinking about the plays and really sort of you know i was that person who was thinking why this play why this play now before i even realized that i should be asking the question why this play why this play now and so that is that is my trajectory and i've basically been doing it ever since undergrad what about you ken um well uh many similarities with martin i'm a california kid born and raised in la i went to uc san diego for undergrad uh as a psychology and theater double major um which i stayed longer in school so i didn't end up finishing both majors um but uh but while i was there at ucsd which is a pretty outstanding training program at that time they had an mfa in dramaturgy so i had tas and that you know i was exposed to i knew about it as a field my specialty in uh while i was getting my theater degree was uh was in performance acting in dance i directed and produced a bit uh in my last years there um but so but i hadn't hadn't had the call to dramaturgy yet but i was always the one like sitting in the theater i'm like why'd you do that what about this what does this mean why why did you produce this play right like having not knowing like oh you're a dramaturg no one had told me that yet um but when i went i moved across the country to washington dc to have a very fond place in my heart for and went to catholic university which is one of the oldest drama departments uh and had been producing theater long before um arena stage was established by zelda fitzhandler um but i finally took my first dramaturgy class it was an m a in theater history and criticism and i took my first dramaturgy class uh by mary rissing there and i was like oh this is good and the literary manager kathy madison from arena stage at that time came in into our class and talked about the literary department there and how it worked and uh and that they had interns and i was like and i applied for that internship and i got in the next year so really that's sort of where i learned to do it i got i was production dramaturg on two plays a eugenio neal play and a brand new john quine play and was at the table with professional actors director and drama designers and and expected to deliver on a professional level like oh i i think that i'm i think i'm a dramaturge now but i have the bug right and so even though i went on to get um as ed martin and i went on and got a phd um fully preparing to do what martin does as a professor although she she has about six full-time jobs if we dig into this conversation more um uh but uh but but shortly after uh finishing um i i got the call to industry and ended up moving into new york and working um for disney and developing new plays uh and musicals um for about 16 years so next chapter tbd right now i'm freelancing um but but that's sort of sort of how i got the call and while there are many ways to practice is a dramaturg i'm like that's who i am like that that was just sort of recognizing vocation and then applying it however i could um so do you let's say someone wants to be dramaturg using can you study traumaturgy or what is the way i've been seeing when and katanya said name ahon was on the program they also talked that they come from a generation they did it by doing by joining theaters being taught apprenticeships models or do you study so what do you think where how should a dramaturg uh what how is a dramaturg made or should it be made like a question i'm still learning so right same here still learning yeah i i i feel that's part of it is that that it because it is process oriented and you're and i'm learning uh how to be a better dramaturg every time i do it right uh figuring it out i do think there are some things you can learn absolutely like studying theater history to figure out you know globally how has theater been conceived made how does it work what are the structures of meaning what is it about how does it connect to society reading as many plays of all different types as possible going to the theater seeing it but then actually then how to apply that right because that's like we got our degree like that's how you become a theater historian or you know a theorist and you write um but then how do you apply that to the making of theater and that's the trick and that's where you have to find out your own way to do it and not you know like i said i had a psychology degree so there was that part of like listening being in there reading a room understanding how things are working when's the time to raise a question when's not i mean there's all it for many dramaturgs because we work so closely with writers and other theater artists there is the counseling function there is the ear there is the sounding board so you know that was useful for me to actually formally study psychology um but uh but a lot of it is just the practice it's it's how to be in the room at the service to bring these things to bear this knowledge of structure plays calms other endeavors in the theater to ask big questions about society about history about time about place why are we here what is it doing how does this function um but but but to be to put all of that at the service of someone else's voice someone else's vision for what happens at the stage and to just try to help that be the best thing and asking challenging questions at the right time cheerleading at the right time um but that i've had to learn by doing honestly so you asked about you know do you can you book study it or do you have to do it and i feel like so much of it in terms of the practice has been doing it and then also talking with other dramaturgs because often you know unlike in in Germany where you get to like work with three dramaturgs on a project often you're the solo artist um doing that particular thing on a given place so to be able to share practices with fellow dramaturgs has been so essential for me to learn how to try new things and do new things agreed i think for me it was definitely a combo of book learning and doing the thing um and i was lucky enough to be in programs that really encouraged the doing of the thing and i was super blessed in that in my phd program um i had my uh my my mentor Patrick Sims had just come off a contract at the Oregon Shakespeare Festival and so he was like he's like i know that i'm an actor and you know we're not quite in the same in the same places in the building but there's some way you need to meet and he introduced me to louis doubt that the Oregon Shakespeare Festival which completely revolutionized the way that i thought about dramaturgy because being at the Oregon Shakespeare Festival where there are just so many dramaturgs running around at the same time and like uh louis and now emritha of established tradition of making sure that all the dramaturgs who were there at the same time have a meeting together to just talk about the things that we are learning in our process is talking about the challenges that we're having in our process is talking about the the exciting wins that we're having in our processes and really figuring out how to help lift each other up in that space especially because as can said the work can sometimes be lonely and so uh like being in those spaces and learning from such amazing other artists really helped me understand my own artistry in terms of being a dramaturg because i think that's the other thing that is still sort of a misconception and i partially blame educational institutions for this idea that really what dramaturgy is is creating an actor packet and dropping it off and never to be seen again um and i actively resist that in my program i know exactly i actively resist that in my program and one of the things that i feel so bad for my poor students is the the ones especially ones that transfer into our institution from other places where that is how they taught their taught what dramaturgy is and i have to be lying no boo that's not i mean that is a kind of dramaturgy and it's called research dramaturgy and that is not what we do here let me explain to you what it is that you're about to get yourself into but and so i think it is you know a combo of those things like learning the basics in terms of the theory learning the basics in terms of structure learning those basics but then also and then hopefully within your educational institution being exposed to a wide variety of structures of plays etc so that you are equipped with enough resources somewhere in your toolbox that when you do go out into the world and then start learning how to do it with other collaborators that aren't in a learning situation as you are that you are prepared and ready to have those challenging conversations you know how to talk to a playwright to be that that that comfort you know on the first day of rehearsal and also be that comfort when we open when it opens but also be that comfort when you close a show so those are all the things that you really just have to do in order to to learn so i think it's both it's a journey too oh go ahead right no go go i just wanted to add that that it's the it's that journey that that that some dramaturgical practice was for a long time research-based because apparently like before the google nobody knew how to go to the library and get some stuff so dramaturgs were trained in that um but you know now because so so many facts now you have to filter them obviously if you find your uh your information on the on the internet um but i i taught for a few years uh at seattle's cornish college of the arts with john wilson who is taught there for many decades and we taught a theater history through dramaturgy class and and he has this uh the story about like so when i go out to find if i'm a production dramaturg and i go out to like sort of find some information about like where this play came from it's like it's like taking an empty bucket and like journeying for a mile to a well to fill it right and so then i go and i fill it and then i bring it back and it's and he says like dramaturgy is not just like dumping off the bucket it's it's sharing with the people uh the journey of going to the well what well how did you get there what you know how much water did you decide to put in who did you meet on the way who did you meet on the way back how are you transform and to have that conversation there that's the dramaturgical conversation um that really enhances enhances the work and so like martin that's the way i i practiced it too it's an ongoing relationship it's establishing relationships with artists it's ongoing relationship um with with the artists that then extends to the audience and everyone else to keep that conversation going which is why dramaturgs a lot of times will be the ones facilitating co-show discussions or outreach uh you know with their colleagues so um do you encourage people to become dramaturgs said there's anything else you can do do that first um but no i really i i absolutely believe in vocation so you know like uh like martin's mentor did for her is to recognize you know among the students and like you know i can recognize like no you should be an actor this is your special this is your fairy talent you do that but there are a lot of people who don't necessarily because dramaturg is not the showy thing uh when you go to see you may see a credit somewhere but like if you know i tell people like if i do my job well you won't you won't have any idea what i did um when you come to see the show and that's you know it's sort of the blessing of the curse of being a dramaturg so i think those of us who are um already working in the field it's it's sort of incumbent on us to recognize and students coming us and people that we're working with to be like oh i think you should check this out this may be a thing that will be fulfilling for you um that this line of work this vocation to add to that my my my realist my realist answer is uh that yes you should you should be a dramaturg if it is something that is of interest to you and it is something that lights fire in in in you if it's something that makes sense to you as who you are as an artist and as a human being trying to connect with the world um but getting but i also say that uh one of things that i am desperately hoping for is that when our field restarts that people will remember how instrumental dramaturgs were during this time and actually start compensating them and compensating them appropriately for their time and their expertise because i think that is one major thing that i cannot i would be remiss if i didn't say that one of the major issues in our field is that people don't like to compensate either they don't like to hire us they don't like to compensate us or they don't like to compensate us appropriately and that is a battle even at this point in my career that i am still fighting which makes me so sad so sad um and i mean i've been very lucky and now a lot of the collaborators that i work with who value what i bring and hence the reason why i'm in that space and in that room advocate for me but uh you know one of the things that i will tell anyone uh that is looking to be in this field is that you have to learn how to advocate for yourself that is part of the training and and and if there's any part of you that is is scared of the idea of advocating for yourself and for your worst then maybe maybe now's not the time to be a dramaturg um you know let some of us loud mouths who will continue to keep fighting that battle and hopefully we'll win it and then come in after we've finished paving that way of appropriate compensation for the value that we bring into a space but you know i would say if it is something that fuels you like i love being a dramaturg and i love the life skills that dramaturgie has bestowed upon me because i always tell my students this i was like dramaturgie is life skills it's not just theater skills it's life skills so my students for example know that when they come into my office if they're coming in with some sort of issue the thing i'm going to say to them is okay let's dramaturg this together what is the story that is being told here and how can we change this narrative to forward to do what it is that we needed to do and so i think you know i'm going to say yes come in with open arms open hearts and know that they are still work to be done so ready to roll up your sleeves that would be my my advice i think it is one of the main differences between european theater is also new york theater american theater there is no dramaturg inside and how many shows have we seen where we say i wish they would have just talked to someone see like you look at the car you see the color and the form see what a great car but actually what that makes the car on is the inside the tuning the motor the systems the suspensions and this is like the you know to fine tune it to make it work i think you know you do need the dramaturg and it's not just the driver or the outside of the car we only at the very end focus on it would be it would be better and i think it is really that this time has showed up anything this time of corona where we do actually listen we i mean we talk to each other we listen in york arising phoenix and so many have started really listening to each other this is the time where it becomes of significance and the dramaturgy field also as many people argue and we might do that the same at the seagulls that also grew in a way there's dense dramaturgy and now there's a dramaturgy of light of installation video of the offside as barty programs or side specific work where you work on so it also moved or developed new arms and legs you know to work something that where the text is not at the center of the de-centering what martin said before but perhaps also is happening and do you see american dramaturgs as part of that change also absolutely uh do you see that yeah absolutely i think even just part of my my resume would be a good example of that like i got to work very closely doing what i affectionately call music turgy with the louisville orchestra and thinking about how how does orchestral music contribute to storytelling that was one of the most amazing experiences of my entire life and i have to admit that doing that has made me really interested in other types of turgy as a other other turgy as i like to call it so doing dance turgy has been something that's now i've started to work in been doing more work with immersive theater experiences and themed park theme and themed park entertainment experiences i've been doing some new work with that and that's been amazing and exciting because you know just thinking about how much storytelling really matters on a larger level that we don't always give credit to or think about like you know i don't know how many people really besides you know potentially dramaturgy nerds like us go to a place like a theme park and really start to think about what is the story being crafted from the moment you set foot into the the space of that theme park to the moment that you get back into your car or however you got there and leave like how is that narrative being unfolded and and given to you and what are you sort of consciously and subconsciously taking in as you're traveling to those spaces so i think that um and the fact that those spaces are actually embracing dramaturgs because they're starting to understand and i mean even in film you're starting to see you know they they have we have all kinds of names in different industries like i think my favorite one that happened relatively recently was in Jordan Peele's film company hired uh essentially a dramaturg i forget exactly what the name of the the title was but i remember reading the thing and i brought it to my dramaturgic class because i was like what does it sound like this person does and they were like they're a dramaturg for a film company exactly that is exactly what they do so i i think it's exciting and fun that there's this sort of new new-ish frontier to be explored what about you Ken uh yeah i one of my first job while i was still in Seattle was working for a Paul Allen's company in some new museum projects he was the the funder of the experience music project which is now called moped pop under the space needle but his interactive museum and so he had some other things on the table and i got a temp job i just happened to fall into something like oh i can do this right like it was all dramaturgical work it was like visitor experience user experience anything that's like design process structure um so you know some of the work that we've been doing in the last few years is just finding folks in other fields who are dramaturgs who don't know the word because they haven't come up through theater but they're practicing committing acts of dramaturgy all over the place and having more conversations between fields about the work and also to expose people who may who may go through you know some more traditional mfa dramaturgy programs to know that like you can apply this training in a lot of fields that are actually really satisfying really interesting work because look you know most of us even if we have a get get the chance to have an institutional gig that pays the the bills you know it's pushing more towards a gig economy so you know to be able to understand how to put yourself out there and use your skills and find the work and develop the relationships is super important so so we're doing a lot of that work too and connecting the dots and also just inviting folks you know LMGA is sort of a strange name for an organization if you if you practice this thing and like not theater um but the conversations that we have I think we've found once we've identified those people and pulled them into the organization the conversations we've had it's win-win right because people inside theater like oh figuring out all these other ways that people are applying it and then folks outside the theater who may be like the lone storyteller in their endeavor find an organization and collaborators they're like yeah I get what you do you know Commvault will be your support system so so that's been really exciting. I was saying to add to that really quickly one of the things I want to give a quick shout out to also is LMDA Mexico because I've learned so much through our our members in Mexico about how storytelling is being shaped by dramaturgs in that country and I think that is fascinating and part of me wishes that we would take some lessons from our from our real outreach to Mexico um I would like to know more about it tell us a little bit. Part of me feels like Ken has to start that story because I just sort of picked up the mantle from where. I know I know well it's a great thing that we had sort of these overlapping terms as as presidents you have like a president elect year and then two years to do and then like two years you're stuck in the organization this is the past president you got stuff to do but it's been really fabulous because you know essentially in our overlap time Martin and I ran the organization together and we're still very much involved but LMDA 15 years ago now changed its name officially from literary managers and dramaturgs of America to literary managers and dramaturgs of the Americas mostly because a good chunk of the membership was Canadian and LMDA Canada had been a stellar so what's a more inclusive name but that wasn't although some of the leaders at that time had taken a exploratory trip to Mexico City and established some connections we had as an organization hadn't really committed to that so one of the things I did when I when I was elected is just sort of throw out there like we need to meet not in the US and Canada for one of our conferences and we committed to it it's just taken a long time to do and we were supposed to meet this year in June we'd already done it and committed to it as Martine was finishing up her presidency and then we had to postpone because of pandemic so we took our conference online but then we had like more people attend the conference than ever in this really international web that spawned out of which is right awesome yeah it was more than that I think it's more than 400 yeah and from like I think it said like 30 something different countries and it was just like what yeah I mean this is one of the things like right we're meeting on zoom because we can't be in same space until you know there's not that health concern but one of the benefits has been access you know for people who have the the internet and the device to connect but but that's been wonderful and to and to really fuel international sense of dramaturgical conversations we have international dramaturgy lab now which is super super exciting and you know we'll be in Mexico next year and and be on the ground there and then just an ongoing commitment and then if that gets established can we expand to more of the hemisphere right it's still just North America there's a lot of people who live in the rest of the hemisphere but we're already making connections overseas right to Asia to to UK to other dramaturgs who work in other parts of Europe and we'll just keep going it's we have the tools now and to not keep going as ridiculous and we're also trying to invest like for example in Mexico invest in some simultaneous translation you know because we can't for us native speakers we can't all expect people like Frank who's operating in a second language to just like do like everyone else has to do the work too to expand the conversations and learn more languages or find tools to have those conversations. I mean if it works out next week we have people from the asian dramaturgy networks with us but what did you learn from Mexico what you Martin you said I learned something what did you learn? I learned quite a few things number one I just learned about how does theater function in Mexico which you know unfortunately there's so much so much of the educational system and so much of the structures that are in place here in the US aren't necessarily we're not talking about what is happening in other countries in a nitty gritty way we are talking about maybe the the the dramatic literature that comes out of there maybe some of the artists that come from out of their country but we're not talking about how does the industry look in other places and so I've learned a lot about that I've also just learned about sort of the different ways in which dramaturgy is talked about done like I think we actually had a connection we have still have a connection with the asian dramaturges network and I forget now off the top of my head which country it is I want to think I'm maybe I'm misquoting but I think it was Malaysia but the word for dramaturge translates into English as soulmate which I think is such a really interesting thought in terms of how a dramaturge functions in a room and so if you start to think about and learn from other countries how are they doing this work what can we learn about a how we can do things better and doing it in a respectful way that honors the fact that it is not the way that our industry started but it is a but we've learned from other from other countries and from other cultures like how they how they are doing the work and you know and and just sort of incorporating that knowledge into like the database that is what we do in the US and and yeah that that's a lot of it I've just been learning so much about how the industry works in other places and specifically how dramaturgy fits into those industries no it's it's it's quite a time and and I think as you both said and hoped and I think it's rather I think it will be more important than before you know to think about what we are doing and why and as came out in many talks at the seattle talk how are we doing it how do we in our work when we create something on stage do we just represent the power structures and how many people are you know at the table or say let's get rid of the table I like that very much what you said you know how do you really do the work how do you produce it how is everybody paid how people are connected to it you know can can they really work as an ensemble we see that in many places there two three directors now two three dramaturgs um two three leaders co-producers those things are changing and also how is important because leader is a model if it's important and all it's a model in a symbolic imaginary but also real space we see something can be done differently and if we don't do it we don't try out new forms how can the country even do it so we have to be doing that and I think dramaturgy is essential in the Americas and it's I think it's an urgent and important change you know if dramaturgy gets a bigger footprint it means also something much larger for the country because means you know to listen to understand to see the social context community global context and to put everything as the whole life as Martin said in it so I think that is of importance new books coming out and Catania worked for many years on a book it's going to come out soon by the way she's also creating a wiki page of the history of dramaturgy in America was everybody listed and people who did things I think this is something to look forward to Peter Ackersau's only is going to come out with a new book there have been many more recent books so it is something we all have to pay attention to the gaming industry in a way also is an interesting field but dramaturgy is significant in the center of it games like the journey or others were really people like at story or game developers think in that way and these are people who also really look at money is and they say that's important it's a better product and when we have it and I think everybody from the smallest downtown companies to the biggest biggest Broadway productions and they do that you know this is of importance makes a real difference but also represents a model of you know humans people create something together and really think about all the layers the complexity of this world that is reflected on stage and it should not be simple it should not be just soda drinks you know where you feel good from home but then it's just a lot of sugar and afterwards you don't really take with you and great theater you remember it if becoming closer now to the end let's say someone is listening now maybe I'll be a dramaturg or not what would you what would you say you know why dramaturgy is so significant but also that person what should he she she hurry what what what would they what should they do and focus on if they dedicate a way their life in a way it is it's a way working in theaters a way of living it's a way how you spend your life but so if they do that what should they really be doing and why is it important you good professor fair I I tell my students and anyone who comes to me who says they're interested in dramaturgy is hear the things that they need to do one read more work reading plays is essential to being a dramaturg because in some ways through the osmosis of read continuing to read a back to dramaturgy and dramaturgs as resources now you have more plays under your bell in order to be able to participate in conversations about why this play why this play now but then also you start to learn what is it that makes this artist tick who wrote this or what is it that you know what is it about the way that this play is structured that is speaking to our society right now or what are the issues that are at the pulse of what is happening right now because I keep telling my students one of my favorite things when I read for a lot of new play festivals like Great Plains Theater Conference or like the O'Neill etc is that I learned so much about what is on people's minds and hearts you know what was on people's minds and hearts the previous year by the submissions that we get that year and so just read more plays and then find find dramaturgs find find your tribe in the dramaturgy community who's doing the work that you want to do and that you aspire to do and connect with them I don't know too many unfriendly dramaturgs and to be honest like even if you do manage to find one unfriendly dramaturg I'm a hundred percent sure if you send out like if you for every like at least a hundred emails you'll get there may be one unfriendly dramaturg in there so just find other dramaturg and ask them how are they doing the thing that they're doing um I get that I get those emails all the time and I'm happy to share because I am all about knowledge sharing and I don't think you know there's any secret to there's nothing secretive or secret about what it is that I've done about my career I'm always honest that my career is like a combination of like determination pluck like luck and and just like put myself out on the line and reaching out and and connecting with others so that that is my advice I don't know Ken probably has better advice I think that's it I mean one of the things I love about dramaturgy is you know just like any other theater specialty there are as many ways to practice dramaturgy as there are dramaturgs you know so there's a ready joke like ask ask ten dramaturgs a question and you'll get a hundred different answers right like there's just like there's plenty of ways to do that and so you know one of the things we do is certainly to to advocate for folks who are interested um in working with a dramaturg is always said like please interview five people you know because there's so many uh different folks out there and you're gonna you know you're gonna have a you've been a developed but close relationship so figure out if there's a match there if there's a way if there's a sympathetic hope there's a way of thinking or else to talk about you know people to um consider you know what is what is the play you're putting on what is the project you're working on um who's missing from the room to make this project the best it can be you know in terms of voices and if you want to diversify your table the dramaturgical position is one of those places to to do it bring in some bring in another perspective bring in some some more different life experience um uh into the table but uh for folks who are interested in you know because I even though I'm not a professor at the moment I do get the opportunity of talking with a lot of students and mentoring folks and I really just say like get out there read as many plays as you can um maybe volunteer to be a play reader um or you know apply for those positions and some of those gigs pay like 10 bucks a script 30 bucks a script which is fantastic and we advocate for that um but to just to like be able to read a play analyze it and talk about it that's like a fundamental skill to develop as a dramaturg to be able to like talk about use words to talk about something structurally so you know like what's happening why this play why this play now what does it mean read deeply in theater and read widely everything else um just to just to know what bodies of knowledge your particular project is tapping into learn how to have conversations with experts in other fields and if that's like something that's interesting to you if you're someone who's generally curious have a lot of interests you'll find room to practice your art in this field and you'll you'll make your own way through it and uh but again I feel like you'll know if you're that kind of person even that other drama your dramaturg aren't you right like but that's that's something it's something you can train for but I think it's also like who are you as a human being in this world and is that something that you'll just find your way in because you've got that fire you've got a dramaturgical fire already lit in you by your DNA yeah and we really do need dramaturgs and we need good dramaturgs as the final question we often also ask that what inspires you at the moment what do you read or listen to a music or tv movie series what what do you guys look at at the moment or listen to well I know I know uh Martina is an avid gardener so I know like she's inspired by that and uh you know her animals that's it I'm a little impressed that my dog has not come in here looking for pets the entire time we've been she's I don't know where she is I think it's I don't know that's actually a really good question she might be with uh with my spouse outside but uh yes to me you know I think what inspires me is just this idea of growth in general so hence the gardening hence uh the wanting to be around animals like I think uh there's so much life around us generally and I think especially in a time like this where um everything is about is focused on uh sickness and death there's something to be said about finding joy in life um and living life and so uh part of what I've been trying to balance is back to the realist and the optimist and the gardening brings out the optimism in me um but I think what inspires me honestly and I know this is going to sound like a bit a bit of a like a punt of the question but what really inspires me are other artists and especially my students um because they are the next generation of what this world is and I am desperately and amazingly hopeful that they will be uh they will take all of the things that we have managed to put in place and do even better with those things and be better than we were about it and I'm not saying this and that it's their responsibility to fix all the things I'm hoping that we will have fixed a lot of things by the time they're taking over but I am inspired by the way they look at theater I am inspired by the playwrights that I work with at the playwrights center some of the stuff that they are writing is just amazing and brilliant and I am inspired by the legacy of playwrights also like I find there's so much joy in history to be like mind and just looking at the wealth of like dramatic knowledge that exists in you know especially in like Nigerian theater and in Asian theater and specifically one of my favorite places to read is I like a lot of Korean theater and so what is how is especially the intersections of technology in theater are really interesting to me and the Koreans are doing it they are doing it so that is where I find inspiration I have found inspiration in in cycling which I never really did before I'm a lifelong runner but we spent a lot of the pandemic time in in California in the Bay Area and I've got a great bay trail there I have a bike so like I'm gonna get on the bike and so I was just taking really long bike rides and listening to books which you know I read books but actually listening to books on audible and finding that like physical activity connected with and I like to you know read or listen to a lot of non-fiction so you know sociology or like you know listen to Stacey Aram's book you know history of voting and voter suppression and it was just like I found myself interacting with or consuming information and thinking in a different way of like listening to a non-fiction book on a long bike ride so that's been and I've just like I just kept going I was like what's the next book what's the next book and listening to a book just versus reading it and something about the rhythm of cycling and listening and and and consuming information that was inspiring I was also inspired with the shutdown unless less plane traffic and less car traffic when everyone had to stay at home I was like the air is cleaner like you know I was just noticing I was like oh here's this here's this respiratory illness that has affected humanity and and our planet's getting a chance to breathe that that inspires me like we can we can do this we can do this we can fix our planet so that's inspiring me and and when the museums have opened and galleries have opened up I've been going and just looking at artists work visual artists work in particular and being inspired by that like old folks they could go to the mat and just see like stuff that's thousands of years old from all over the world that's been inspiring me and like what what sticks I've been thinking about legacy like what what from this thing that we're doing right now what are we going to leave behind what is going to how we responded to this um so then just sort of deriving inspiration from other artists who responded to other things over history um and leaving those things behind yeah that's uh that's um that's good advice and good good good good practice really thank you thank you both for taking the time and uh giving us a little view inside that world of geometry that also sounded exciting in those over 100 talks this is one of the most upbeat so this is also for something that's interesting um about drama turkey for the win right yeah really doing a drama turkey dance drama turkey party something is happening here and uh and maybe you know it's also that that change that that will happen and or already has happened that this is um part of it so really thank you for taking the time to share with us your your experience and your your thoughts your visions also your your concerns so this is of real importance to everyone and we continue this week tomorrow we have Lale Hill Gantner who is one of the great curators internationally of theater and performance from the Edinburgh Festival to PS 122 how it was named at the time he created the new space and then this was the UNASUS Foundation at the moment and who knows where his long dramaturgical life will take him also I think like you guys he has many chapters so we will hear from him what he thinks also what his colleagues are thinking at the moment you know the kind of international curators uh uh circuit and then Hilary Miller and Professor Hilary Miller was also practitioner but she's a researcher and professor and teacher and she wrote about New York City in the 70s when it was broke and it was kind of a dead city and when art was part of the researcher and what great great contribution it made New York what it was also kept people in New York City and also got real support at the time from the city and something where we have to look at now too this is a same devastating moment if not more than for the art so are there any lessons to learn from and so we'll be I'm also looking forward to do that conversation so really thank you thank you and I hope it was also as meaningful as it was for us and our listeners it's really important to hear from you and this is such a significant field a bit in the shadows of the sidelines of the stage of this theater but um yeah I think it's the one that also makes it work it's of utmost significance and thank you for sharing it means a lot to all of us here so I hope you will have a good lunch now and go back cycling or in the garden and um and let's see hope and see that we will be part of the change we want to see and let's stay in conversation you know this deal and many others in the New York we're trying to put together a festival in 2022 in the summer the New York International Festival of the Arts and see how we can you know collaborate and put voices out and things in the parks in the parks in the parking lots in all five boroughs but also in the theaters and so we have to do something and and this contribution you guys are making is essential and significant so it's something you will also get advice from you to do so bye bye and to howl round things again for hosting us um they are such a wonderful platform CRVJ and Andy Lerner from the Segal Center and everybody who supports and of course listeners I know when we started in March very few podcasts were out in the these kind of world of theater we move in and now so much has moved online so it means a lot to us that you take the time to listen and we hope that it's also something meaningful for you in there because as Martin said life real life and also theater but also dramaturgy is connected and we could also think how do we drama talk our own life what's of importance what should we listen to all the lessons Martin and Ken talked about you can apply to our time of planet Earth how do we use it what do we do what's of importance so this is all essential so thank you and I hope to see you soon one day at the Segal and or openings and I cannot tell you how much I miss the theater and openings and things on the stage so I hope it will be back soon but it doesn't look like before next fall is at all at the time so